OH GOD! i was complaining about this to my cousin the other day over coffee.
Exactly what you describe is what is reality for me. Another child in the house.
1. He cannot balance a checkbook
2. He over draws, and bounces checks. ( its come tothe point, where i've told him to pay in cash now for rent, daycare etc... I 'll pay the bills and deduct it off my portion of the rent to make sure the bills get paid)
3. He never does laundry, i have to also pick up his clothes from the bathroom and from our bedroom.
4. He would get parking tickets (700$ worth and hide them) i paid them, then deducted off the rent to get back my money. Then I registered myself for parking downtown so he wont get tickets anymore. We both now have to pay 50$ a month to park the car...Just in ENSURE he gets no tickets, i have to pay 50bucks more a month!
6. He takes his time to pay his visa...even if it only takes 20 bucks a month...he'll wait 3-5 months to get notices and me screaming at him before he begins to pay...and he pays the minimum so it basically stays with him like static.
7.When his kids come over with homework, he gets pissy when he helps them. He says i'm better. I told him, no, i've helped them before and mom gets angry...and she should...THEy're his kids too!!! I told him to get off his ass and sit and go homework with them! He did this finally after 5 years last weekend.

YES, its typical TOS, i've heard it from everywhere that it is sooo rare to find someone who does not do these things. For me, at the beginning of our relationship i noticed it and started to take action.
i've stated to him, i'm not your mother. Pick up after yourself and help me around the house. Yes, he does cook, but nver washes the dishes. Procrastinates everything in his life ....everythign.....do i love him. Yup..or else i would be out the door.
So now, instead of telling him off, i ask him to work as a team. I'll wash dishes, he will put them away. I'll wash the laundry and i ask him to hang it with me.
I ask him to pay in cash, no checks , no credit. I've told him point blank, he has no concept of either one so do it the old fashion way. He has to see the cash out of his hands.
Do homework with the kids, while i wash the house or cook for everyone.
Things have improved.
1. homework is done
2. bills are paid
3. no bounced checks in the last 10 months
4. credit is being paid
5. he's doing homework with his kids.
6. i've warned him to put money aside for extracurricular activities at certain time sof the year to give to the ex for the kids. If he doesn't, i will deduct for the rent and give it to her.

So yes, there are many men out there like this but its not the end of the world. They cannot be changed but add a few tricks...they may learn. Sometimes they dont, Accept it and deal with it to make things better for yourself, not for him.

i hear a lot about these type of men. I luckily don't know too many of them personally. My dad is nothing like that, my brother is nothing like that, my exhusband was nothing like that, my BF is nothing like that. but many of my womnen I know have husbands or boyfriends like that. it usually is very apparent right away in a dating process.

i think some women might like to take care of men. I do like taking care of people including men but there is a limit how much i am willing to do. some women don't have that limit. but i also have to say that some women are like additional child, my brother does way more than my sister-in-law. she doesn't even know where their checkbook is and how to use car wash or anything of the sort.

organic_maria,

That sounds awful. I think, no I know, I would rather be alone all my life than with someone who couldn't handle a checkbook. I understand how one's spouse might think it important to buy something expensive that you couldn't care less about, and compromising is essential, but not paying bills on time would drive me crazy. Maybe that's what my exH's current wife sees in him - he is depressed and has plenty of faults, but he doesn't bounce checks and never got a ticket of any kind while we were together.

Your husband actually contributes to extracurricular activities? Except for physical therapy (which is actually medical, not really extracurricular), my exH has paid for almost nothing. The separation agreement says that we will split agreed upon extracurriculars, but he hardly ever agrees to anything, so he is off the hook. He split the cost of a few school related field trips, but not much else.

My husband is horrible with the check book, BUT:

1. He has NEVER missed a parent teacher conference
2. He read to the kindergarten class last year every wensday
3. He's the football coach, softball coach and cub scout leader
4. He participates in the bedtime ritual (bath story etc..
) for the babies every night.
5. Cooks dinner 50% of the time
6. Gets groceries when asked

So I let him slide on his horrible money management skills.

My husband is responsible, reliable, good with money, helps with housework, never complains about what I do, or what I spend...

BUT,

When it comes to his children, he never initiates doing something. He does things with them , but only after I suggest it, or I initiate it. I get the feeling that, if I didnt exist, he would be spending his time with his kids with them playing at one thing, and him doing his own thing.

Interestingly enough, he isnt like that with my kids. Of course, mine are all older, and boys, and hubby says that he relates better to teens than to young children.

I wish he would take more initiative in doing things with his kids without my input, but since everything else he does is extremely responsible and loving, I cant complain too much.

Besides, my first husband never paid attention to our boys when they were young. It wasnt until they hit 10 or so that my ex husband took initiative and did things with them. Before that, he also would only do things when I was directing.

I think most men, not all, but most, feel out of place with young children. There is some wisdom to the tender years doctrine, regardless of how egletarian we have become.

Then again, maybe this isnt true for younger fathers of today, but it is true for a lot of men of my generation.

My DH is really great with the checkbook, helps do laundry, keeps the kitchen spotless, and picks up after himself and the kids when he needs to. He runs the vacuum, mops, andHe's great with homework, is fantastic with my son, and he's always there when I need him.

However, the man could burn water so I rarely if ever let him in the kitchen since I'm afraid he'll burn it down.

Mine's fabulous! He grills almost every night, helps with the dishes, the cleaning, the laundry, the kids. He reads bedtime stories, coached soccer and baseball for years, fixes things around the house, built class projects and even helps out our elderly neighbors - sometimes without even being asked. He's a 'manly man', built like a lumberjack, but will watch 'chic flicks' with me and even cries at the same parts.

His one fault? His method for doing laundry is to sort by weight of fabric and level of dirtiness, not by color, and he likes to dry things on high temp. I tried to get him to change, but he wouldn't, and now he picks my dirty clothes out of the basket and won't wash them.

Such problems...

My DH:

*Has never bounced a check or had a late payment on anything. He's got nearly perfect credit and I wish I were as good about money as he is.

*I wake up his daughter in the morning while he's in the shower. He fixes her breakfast unless she wants something cooked, he doesn't know how to cook anything but cream of wheat, so I'll cook for her on occasion.

*When SD gets home from school (at 4), I will have her start working on her homework and help her if she needs help. DH gets home at 6:30-7 and will help her if she isn't done and if she is, he checks it while I cook dinner. (if she is all done before he gets home, she gets to spend time with him playing a game or watching TV so she's been trying hard) We eat at 7:30-8 and SD takes her shower after dinner and if there's time before bedtime at 8:30, they read or watch TV. If she's being rewarded for something, she'll get to stay up til 9 with him. We've discussed having me feed her before he gets home so they can spend time playing a game, but he likes to have a family sit down meal, so we wait for him. We've also discussed him changing shifts so he gets out of work early but that would mean he leaves before she wakes up.

*DH gets one weekend a month with SD. We spend one of the days together (shopping, going places, eating out) and the other day, I go off on my own and he does what she'd like alone with him. Last Sunday, it was raining so they watched movies all day. I assembled the invitations for her party.

*DH does all of SD's laundry. (including the bedding) Occasionally, if I'm not busy I will do it while he's at work but he is really good about it. He also does his own laundry & washes the towels. I do my laundry and my kids do their own laundry too. (never a complaint about something getting ruined)

*After dinner when SD is in the shower, DH cleans the kitchen (since I cook, he cleans)

*As far as paying for things, he makes pretty good money but has made poor decisions in his life (mostly money, but then also with the person he had a child with) and has a lot of credit card debt, which he added about $13k for our lawyer last year, so most of his check goes into our bill paying account & he keeps enough for him to have gas money for two weeks. He packs his lunch so he isn't 'wasting' money on eating out. After putting my portion into our bill account, I pay for pretty much everything else, Groceries, Clothes, Eating Out, and anything SD or my daughter needs. My boys both work and don't get anything extra from me, they are well fed and if they have wants, they use their own money from working or do without. I have helped my son that is in college if he falls short, but he hasn't needed much help.

My DH is great with children who are big enough to walk and talk, babies, not so much. He would help with our youngest some when she was a baby, but he always seemed quite nervous about it. I think a lot of men feel this way about newborns and babies.

Now that our children are 4, 9, and 9, he's great with them...maybe even better than me. He takes them on outings, goes to P/T conferences, takes them to their activities, helps them do their chores, etc. I get stuck disciplining most of the time...although he is getting much better at it. I'm always the one to arrange child care and set up activities for the children, but I'm compulsive about having the schedule in order.

As far as helping around the home, he cooks some, takes the trash out, does laundry if I don't get to it (although he does not fold or put away...just washes), does dishes, and cleans up if the clutter is bothering him. He will not clean bathrooms, and I do not take out trash.

We keep separate bank accounts, but all our bills are paid, and we don't have a lot of debt. I just don't like the way...or maybe the way he doesn't...balance his checking account to my standards. I tend to look for my missing penny if I don't balance out right. Most people are not as obsessed as me. He just gives me money for most of the bills, and I make sure they're paid on time. Most of the bills he has in his name come out of his account as an automatic withdrawal. DH goes down to pay his child support and gives SD's BM extra money for things that SD may need when asked.

I think we have a nice balance. I do see problems with some couples though where it seems one party gives, gives, gives, and the other one takes, takes, takes. It really needs to be give and take!

I have to say my husband is pretty wonderful!

He is an awesome cook, so on his days off he does most of the cooking. On weekends he makes big family breakfasts.
He helps with all the housework and laundry. He goes to most parent/teacher conferences and school events. On his days off he helps with homework (but he works afternoons the rest of the time so he is not home to help). On his days off we often do family stuff.

His only faults are that he is not good with money, and he is not a morning person. So I have taken over bill paying and the checkbook. He just uses his credit card for gas and usual expenses like that and we pay the balance each month on it. As for sleeping in, well he gets the kids off to school in the mornings because I leave for work really early, but then he often naps till work time and that drives me crazy!! But I do have to say he does housework late at night when he gets home so he makes up for it! And on weekends when me and the kids are home he tries to get up early enough to cook breakfast before lunchtime! In his defense he worked midnights for years and just can not fall asleep right after he gets home from work.

And I am sure if you ask him I have a few things he wishes I could change! But nobody is perfect!

TOS,

From what i've heard, my husband in teh past drank quite a bit, got into 3 accidents, and did quite alot of 'bad' things. SMoke up..etc..et.c.. with this ex wife. Very disfunctional.
He has cleaned himself since and when i met him , he was clean and when i datedhim i never knew he couldnt' balance a check book, i never knew he was a procrastinator for bills. I blame myself cause i took care of things well enough, so he would slip every so often.
hes not a bad person. Just is really bad at handling money and thinking for the future. I know many men like this. Live for today , not for tomorrow. So they spend everythgin they have.
He has straighten himself out cause i did give him an ultimatum. Shape up or i will ship out!!!
I told him, i completely understand why your ex and your divorced. You got better, she is getting better.
BUt, i have ot admit. yes he pays for all extracurricular activities. He coudl refuse but he doesn't cause he sees his kids need those activities. He has never ever missed a payment for child support. And let me tell you, its tight on our end. He will unfortunately have to cut childsupport after our second child...cut it down, but not totally. The money will have to be shared but when it came to CS, he's never missed, always picks up his kids eow who live 1 1/2 away. and has given money when there was need for it.
He has refused to pay for Braces. He cannot affort 8,000 dollars, or even half of it. I agree with that refusal. His SD doesn't need it. Its mostly cosmetic. A slight overbite and two crooked teeth.

"a slight overbite & 2 crooked teeth" $8000???

tos, I was married to that guy you described;

Coming from a messed-up family myself, I didn't know what was "normal", & I fretted about it for years, internalizing the blame, worrying, trying to make sure everything went well & doing it in such a way that it didn't look like I was doing it in case his famous male ego would have been bruised.

in which case he would have thrown a tantrum.

He was the very spoiled youngest son of a doting mother;
never had done a thing for himself, never had heard the word "no", was very pampered & felt entitled.

One day, about 5 years into it, I was talking to another young wife who was in the same boat.

She said that she had endured being turned into a substitute for his mother, she kept thinking that one day he would grow up or realize that she was his partner & not his mother, & thennnnn....

one day he came home with his latest toy, expensive sound system or something, that he had bought on credit even though they couldn't afford the payments.

She said, "I told him we just couldn't keep up payments on it, & he was going to have to take it back.
& he drew himself up in righteous indignation & said,
'Who do you think you are? my *mother*?'"

She said she realized that she *did* think she was his mother, that he had turned her into a substitute for his mother, that that was why she didn't even like sex any more (who could enjoy sex with their spoiled child? ick), & that she knew, right then, looking at his indignant face, that it was hopeless, that she couldn't win, might as well throw in the towel & send him back to his mommy.

who was happy to have him return & who tsk-tsked at the poor way that selfish girl had treated her baby.

It sounded *just like* my situation, right down to feeling like somebody's sexless, generic-brand mother instead of a hot young girlfriend/wife.

I didn't leave right away, didn't have the confidence, but hearing her story made me realize that I wasn't the only one, & that the spoiled brat's behavior wasn't my fault, wasn't my responsibility, & wasn't something I could affect.

yuck.

somebody tell a joke or something.

I honestly couldn't ask for my DH to be any better. He is not only a wonderful dad but DH as well. He actually takes care of all our finances because it stresses me out too much (it was a mutal agreement) and would never deny me anything. He helps do laundry and clean. I work from home so he makes sure we get out so that the walls don't come in on me...lol. He never yells at me and always takes my feelings into consideration. He is a great listener and even highlights my hair!!! I could go on and on.....

As a dad he is wonderful. My SS wrote a story about how wonderful his dad is and it would make you cry. He is not only good to my skids but my bio kids as well. In fact, one of my bio kids teachers told me that she has never seen a step dad in all her years of teaching care about his skids so much and take so much time to ensure they are meeting expectations at school. All our kids love him.....I am so blessed!!!!

Yuck. I dated a few men like TOS described. Then I met my fiance who seemed to be responsibile with money. Three months before the wedding I found out that mommy controlled all of his finances, paid all of his bills and then only gave him an allowance to spend. And he wanted me to live like that too after we got married!

I ended up breaking it off, the money was not the only reason but was the straw breaking the camels back.

I've also dated a man that had a very lovely daughter. Straight A's, very pleasant personality even as a teenager. However, Dad could not stop bashing BM for everything for no reason. I had to run from that one too.

Now, I don't date. I think it is very hard to find a responsible man.

My BF, who I am not married to but recently moved in with (he asked my dad's permission to marry prior to our moving in together and we are soon to be engaged) is wonderful with his DD9 and DD5. When they visit he does all the planning, cooking, cleaning, laundry and is very interactive with them. They are pretty high-energy which I am not used to being around, but I enjoy them and I always find myself ramping it up to meet the pace and their interests.

When they aren't with us, which is most of the time, he calls them at least twice a day on the phone. He has about 300 kids' books in a box in the den and he ready them a different story every night on speakerphone before they go to bed. With BM's help they also exchange e-mails.

His credit situation isn't the greatest after his divorce (took place two years before we met), but honestly, with my $60K of student loans, mine isn't either! But we are on the same page with our financial goals and make well over a six-figure income between us.

When it's just he and I, he does 50% of the cooking (at least), and we split bills, household chores and laundry 50-50 too. He is very generous and caring with me, and I'm lucky that he's someone who I could depend on in the serious times but also kick back with and enjoy a lazy weekend watching movies with. I think if either of us had to pick up after the other, give "reminders" etc. we would both go nuts due to our joint low tolerance level for stress and disorganization! LOL

I am very proud to say my husband doesn't have one of the *character flaws* TOS mentions.
Mine cooks dinner 5 out of 7 nights a week. He works 7-4 while I work 8-5+, so he picks up the kids, gets them fed a snack and down to do homework before he starts dinner. Many nights when I get home he will have a fruity drink on the tgable at the door, and once a week flowers with it. He does all the grocery shopping with the kids after he picks them up so I hardly ever set foot in a grocery store. We usually tag team baths - one gets them in and one gets them out. I read with DS6 most nights while he reads to DS3, but we sometimes switch. SD13 switches back and forth sitting with us to listen or read. I wash, dry and put away laundry and we share folding . . . I'm picky about laundry.
DH has been at every P/T conf., open house, science fair, sport game, music performance, competition, etc. He does miss some of the math/art literacy/reading nights at the school but that is because a bunch of us PTA mom's and kids usually go in a group and the dads are left in the dirt. :-)
He coaches soccer and basketball and takes DS6 to karate every week, which he has to leave work early to do. He is most often the one to stay home with sick kids as his work is much more flexible than mine.
I do manage all the finances, but as I do that for a living it makes sense. We talk before major purchases and though he buys more techy crap than I would like to have he does that for a living, so I give him a pass.
I do most of the cleaning, but as I am a clean freak and our house is on the market I am okay with that. Until we listed the house we had a cleaning lady so I really just did spot cleaning on the off weeks.

I don't think I can complain about more than things like dirty clothes on the side of the bed and empty cups on the coffee table. If that's all I have to B*$&h about, I'd say I'm very lucky!

So TOS, where was your ex on the husband scale?

DH has adult daughters and we have no children together, but there are so many reasons why I love him and why I married him.

He's sensitive, loving, thoughtful and generous. He turns his socks right side out and folds them together before putting them in the laundry hamper.

He often does the laundry. He washes and vacuums my car and puts gas in it. He helps with housework. He makes the bed every morning.

He feeds and waters the dogs. He does all of the yard work and we have the best looking lawn and landscaping in the neighborhood.

He finished off our basement by himself and it is perfect. He even built a sauna room for me for when my back hurts.

He is a very good cook and he takes care of paying the bills and balancing the checkbooks.

He surprises me with getaways to my favorite spa hotel. He sends roses to me at work on special occassions.

He encourages me when I need it and he lifts me up when I feel down.

I waited 44 years for the right man. I kissed some toads but I ended up with a prince. And I do know how lucky I am and I never take it or him for granted. He is my best friend.

My exH read the kids bedtime stories, sat with them till they fell asleep when they were little, went to almost all school conferences, almost never missed a visit to the obstetrician (and there were a lot of them, obviously), was a great cook, never got a traffic ticket, knew how to handle a checkbook and we spent most of our money on the children. I did most of the cleaning and the taxes and trip/event/planning.

He changed overnight from a very involved father to something quite different.

june, your post reminded me of several husbands of friends & of my brother;

it seems like some guys change for the better, maybe after they've messed up a first marriage, maybe after they've lived on their own for a while, maybe sometimes they just grow up.

tos, I'm sorry;
maybe sometimes they change in the opposite direction, too.

Sylvia... I think people just change... some better some worse. My dad has always told me, 'you don't really know if your kids are 'good kids' until they are in their 30's or 40's.'

When I was a single mom with three kids w/three father's, my sisters were sometimes overly critical of my parenting (they were not always wrong, but when criticizing my kids, they would use theirs as an example of what mine should be like) Now, 15 years later, my nephew that was the outstanding student & athlete is now a college drop out, waiting tables to support his drinking/partying lifestyle (and he has a bit of a gambling problem). My niece that was gonna take the world by storm, broke up with her BF of three years and got pregnant three months later by a guy that is less mature than my immature son. They got married when she was three months pregnant and have split up twice. They've moved in and out of my brother's house several times because her DH can't keep a job. (he's 21 with an attitude) and she just announced they're expecting baby #2. She's living with my brother while he's living somewhere else and they've decided to 'date' to work on their marriage. and my nephew that was going to be the next child prodigy, he is doing drugs and dropped out of school. They are all in their early 20's so maybe in time, they will straighten up and become responsible adults. Hopefully.

My kids are not without problems but I have never 'bragged' they were better than anyone else or denied a problem when it was true. I don't think that who a person is at 20 or even 25 is who they become at 30-40-50. Hopefully, as we get older, we grow and learn. I was irresponsible at 20 but over the years, I wanted to do the right thing and be a better person. Some that seem to be very responsible at 20 may decide at 40 or 50 that they can't do it anymore. I think when people change as they get older, that is who they really are. They no longer have to live to please their parents. Sadly, sometimes, they feel they no longer have to live to please their spouse or children.

Let's see my DH:

He is terrible with money. He is an impluse buyer of the umteenth degree. But, what he buys is almost always something useful or that we need... just we really didnt need it right then... it could have waited.

I balance the check book and pay the bills... but then balancing is really not a chore anymore courtesy of our tech generation and internet banking and what not.

We split cooking probably about half and half.

He generally does the laundry. I always forget about it until late at night. And nine times out of ten he has already done it and not only are the kids clothes good to go but my work clothes are to.

He gets off earlier than I do so usually he will get the kids started with homework. When I get home I do the answer questions and help... especially with report writing and math which are not DH specialty.

He always tucks in all four kids at night and says prayers with them. He also says prayers with them at the dinner table. I insisted that we all eat at the table together. I think it is important. He is big on the praying (I am not religous) so we both give on what we each want.

I am the crafty one.. I always have some project or new idea on how to make things work better. I also make more money so most of mine goes to the household and making sure all four kids get to do activities and bdays and what not.

We dont really have a down the line this is what you do this is what I do approach to cleaning.. we just both work together along with the kids to get it done... he does have a tendacy to get sidetracked on one project that to me doesnt seem nearly as important as say mopping the floor and dusting so we can just get it done.. but whatever... it gets done
He is at every school conference play game practice etc (well when bm actually notifies him of it.. which has now become a problem as well)

I have sacrificed a lot to be with him (I would definately be much more financially secure and free with just me and my daughter) but it is because of all of the little things...

The am phone call from work to say I love you how is your day going.... They hey I am home phone call in the evening... The is there anything I can do to make you feel better when I am in a shlump... or over tired or whatever. The thank you for everything you dos... the dorky jokes that he knows will make me laugh even if I dont want to... the well everything else... and to be perfectly honest the sex is great too ;-)

Everyone has their faults... I know I have mine that he deals with.. (one particular I know that aggravates him is my tendacy to leave the wet towel from my hair laying on the back of a chair or something rather than hung back up in the bathroom...opps I try :-)

But, I definately would not say that my DH is another kid that I have to take care of... that would aggravate me to no end.

My DH has always been a really nice guy in every way. I hear that from everyone, including his ex.

He's never had a speeding ticket, hardly drinks at all, he's financially responsible, he works hard, is not a womanizer and doesn't like to hang out with guy friends, etc. I guess the worst thing I could say is that he sometimes lacks patience, but then so do I.

DH's kids were grown when we met, so I never saw him in action with them when they were little. I do know he has told me he had been unhappy in his marriage for more than a decade before finally ending it; that what kept him there was not wanting to risk being denied access to his children --- that he couldn't stand the thought of not being there daily to tuck them in and kiss them good night.

Of course, this is just his side of the story; however, his siblings have told numerous stories of his active involvement with them. Describe him as a very devoted father.

In the 12 years I have known him, this has been my experience of him. He loves his kids very much. Worries about them constantly; wants them to be happy and prosperous in their lives.

He is a doting grandfather. Has make believe tea parties with his oldest granddaughter; watches Dragon Tales with her; takes her on walks in the woods; swings her endlessly in her tree swing; made a bird house with her; currently planning where to build her playhouse; makes up stories to which she falls asleep at night ("Tell me a story, Papaw!"). Is similarly doting with his grandson; rides him around on the tractor; builds things; teaches him how to drive the battery powered jeep...doing "guy" things...it is precious to watch grandson follow Papaw around, mimicking what he does....DH has flown 2500 miles across the country 3 times in 8 months, spending a week each time to be with his youngest granddaughter (now 8 months old). Her parents have brought her back here once, also. When all three grandkids have been here with us, DH usually pushes me aside to change dirty diapers, etc...

My nieces and nephews love him. He is kind and patient; playful and engaged.

As a partner and spouse, I could not ask for more. He is thoughtful and giving. On the day-to-day things, he is perfectly willing to do his own laundry; irons his own clothes; cleans house; cleans up after himself in the kitchen; is very responsible with finances; responsible and capable in his work.

My first husband was killed in a plane crash 3 weeks after our 14th wedding anniversary. I was a witness to the accident. In that instant, my world literally crashed and burned. I never wanted to expose myself to the potential for that pain ever again. Couldn't imagine ever wanting to even date again, let alone live with or be married to anyone. I did not want to risk opening myself up to loving someone only to lose them. I honestly believed if I ever experienced that kind of pain again, it would kill me.

And then I met DH. He is compassionate; he is tender; he is thoughtful; he makes me laugh --- and Lord knows, even today, more than 17 years after my 1st husband's death, there are times when I need to laugh. He wants to make me happy.

I think of the word "gentleman." That word perfectly describes DH, in every sense. He is not only a gentleman but also a gentle-man. I am incredibly grateful for his presence in my life because in a very real way, he restored my life to me.

Wry, What a moving, loving story..You made my weekend with your life affirming, hope filled, forward looking story...The best to you and your gentle man...Sweet.....

You are welcome, Dotz. And, thank you for your kind words.

ima,

It is one thing to become more responsible as you become older - that makes sense. When a responsible teenager changes into an irresponsible young adult, and particular when he engages in addictive behaviors, that is a sign of depression or other mental illness, not merely who he "really is." The same is true of a previously responsible middle aged adult..

That was a very nice story, Wry. I'm glad the two of you found one another.

My husband is an amazing father! He coaches soccer, he always goes to conferences, open houses, school parties, book fairs. He loves playing with his son, helping him do homework, teaching him to ride his bike, how to swim... The list could go on and on! He is equally an incredible husband. This man would do anything for me!! He handles all of our finances, he does the dishes (good thing because that's one thing I HATE doing!!), opens doors for me, he's honest and one of my favorite things about him is he's a neat freak like me!! LOL!! But there are somes things he will not do because honestly, I won't let em'. He does not touch the laundry, clean the house (though he keeps it very tiddy) and he never cooks. Oh man, is he a trouble cook!! That's one thing he does not do for his son . His son knows to never let his dad cook him anything that doesn't come out of a can! LOL!! All in all, I have most definetly been blessed to be in this family!!

theotherside

Are you a psychologist that specializes in depression? You seem to diagnose it often. There may be some truth to it, but that's a rather specific conclusion to come to. When you have an honor roll high school student that gets into a wonderful college and as soon as he's away from his overbearing parents with high expectations that forced him to study in high school, and he decides to spend all his time partying and blowing off school because his parent's aren't there to make him be a good student, is THAT depression?

That's exactly what my nephew did.

Depression, mental illness, maybe, but maybe he did what he had to under his parents rule and once given some freedom away from them, he bolted. And I've heard of that happening when children are sent to all girls or all boy's schools, or are raised with strict religious parenting that doesn't allow self expression. A middle aged adult, well that's probably a mid life crisis. Some say it's related to depression, but that's redundant. Of course when you reach an age where you look at your life and realize that you are past your prime, you are closer to death than birth, you are faced with your own mortality, I would be surprised at anyone that doesn't feel some sort of depression or fear about it. Nobody wants to get old, frail and use diapers or become dependent on others for care. If anything, I would think that somebody that is in 'mid life crisis' would be saying to themselves, 'I've always wanted a red sports car. Now I can afford it and I'm damn sure I'm gonna do that before I die!' Some guys do anything to make themselves look or feel younger again. That would include an affair with a younger woman or starting a second family. Some abandon their families. They may begin to feel they've spent their whole life doing for others (wife & kids), now it's their turn to have fun or do what they've always wanted but couldn't because of the wife, kids, money situation, whatever and they decide it's time for ME. (and I know there are women that do it too, but for some reason, mid life crisis is usually associated with men)

and it's true what my dad says, you may be a shining star at 20 and everyone thinks you have it all, then all it takes is one or two bad decisions and you lose it all. My mom was a doting mother when we were small. A bankruptcy, affair and divorce later, she was an alcoholic that had nothing. She was pretty pathetic. Blame it on depression but everyone makes a choice in their life. I've suffered from depression and I've gone to counseling for it over the years. The first time I sought treatment, I was 18. If I feel a bout of it taking over my life, I get help. I take medication if I need to and fight it. It's a disease, it's not an excuse to make poor choices. When I feel depressed, I think of my kids and how much they need me, and I think of my mom and how she wasn't there for her kids. It's a choice. I guess I could choose to self medicate but then I know I'd be hurting my kids. Apparently, my mom didn't care if she hurt her kids. As an adult, I can now see that even a depressed person knows they are making a choice. She made the wrong one and so did your husband, but they didn't just do it without knowing it would hurt others, they just thought of what they wanted for themselves and that was more important to them.

And on the subject of excuses for poor choices, I've made several poor choices in my life. There is no excuse, I was selfish and didn't think of how it would hurt anyone, only what I wanted at the time. I could blame my age, immaturity, depression or things that happened to me growing up (molest, rape, alcoholic parent, child of divorce, etc.) but the truth is, I knew it was wrong and I chose to ignore the fact that it was wrong. I've spent the last 18 years trying to make amends and take responsibility for what I've done. I'm not the same person I was when I made those decisions. My children could easily throw it up in my face when I tell them it's wrong to do some of the things that I did, but they don't. They know that I'm not the same and they see how hard I've worked to change and that you are not defined by just one thing in your life.

Ima, if I remember correctly, TOS mentioned in a previous post that psychology was "one" of her majors. I assume she means for an undergraduate degree; since most, if not all, 50 states require a doctorate to be considered for licensure as a psychologist, I would conclude (perhaps erroneously, as I am basing my judgment on insufficient data) her primary career is not in professional psychology.

Also, I believe when she shared psychology was only one of her majors, I think she lumped psychology in with those other majors like education that tend to attract less talented students, those incapable of engaging in the process of rigorous analysis. She mentioned that more talented students generally gravitate toward more lucrative careers.

This is where I feel my suspicion that TOS is not a professional psychoogist becomes shaky...on the one hand, if TOS's opinion is that students drawn to psychology are less talented than those drawn to majors leading to lucrative careers, then perhaps she did find a career in psychology because we know that despite having not one but at least two graduate degrees, TOS lives near the poverty level (suggesting she did not choose lucrative); on the other hand, many here have had the pleasure of experiencing the results of TOS's clearly superior analytic skills...suggesting too much talent to be drawn toward a major attracting those inferior students.

I'm stumped.....but then again, one of my majors is in psychology and for more evidence of my analytical shortcomings, I went and earned a graduate degree in a similar field, building a prosperous career along the way.

Now I have a headache!

Wry - that was fantastic.

I speculate - and my major was journalism so take this for what's it's worth :-) - that depression, though a very valid and serious problem, is also being used here as a justification. If it's depression it's not really one's fault . . . thus a divorce due to TOW is no cause of the first wife, just the depression.

Wry-that is a wonderful post. Sorry you have a headache but a wonderful post. I enjoyed reading it.

Wry,

In the state of Ohio, you don't need a doctorate to practice psycology. You're required to have a masters degree. To become a psychiatrist you must have a doctorate to enable you to prescribe medicine. I have gone to pre-medicical and medical school for many many years and have never heard of such a thing. I could be wrong, maybe licence requirements very from state to state. I'm not either a psycologist or a psychiatrist but it was required for me to have many credited hours attending the classes for all of my degrees.

Sugarland-girl,

Actually, in the state of Ohio at this time, you do indeed need a Ph.D. or a Psy.D. to be licensed as a psychologist. Many years ago, when the psych law was first written, folks with a Master's degree could be "grandfathered" and granted a license to practice, but that was probably more than thirty years ago.

I believe it is true it is possible to practice as a school psychologist with a Master's Degree and in this case, your professional work would be limited to a school setting.

Today to operate in a clinical setting with only a Masters degree in psychology, one can be registered with the Ohio State Board of Psychology as a "Psychology Assistant." In the case of psych assistants, they may work only under the "close and direct supervision of a licensed paychologist." In other words, while a licensed psychologist may independently diagnose and treat mental and emotional disorders (among other things as outlined in their scope of practice per the Ohio Revised Code), psychology assistants may not.

With respect to psychiatry, this is a medical specialty and requires one to have earned either an M.D. or a D.O. and then complete a residency in psychiatry. The reason psychiatrists can prescribe medicine in Ohio is because they are licensed physicians. I believe there are some states that have granted prescription privileges to psychologists (maybe Arizona is one --- don't quote me though as I am uncertain about it), but only after they have completed rigorous coursework in psychopharmacology and other relevant areas.

In Ohio, it is also true some (if not all) nurse practitioners have prescription privileges. I am not certain if they are able to do so independently or if they do this under the supervison and signature of a licensed physician.

On my way home from running errands, I was listening to an audio tape on this very subject. The lecturer was discussing several theories of depression since the theory one subscribes to will dictate the
intervention(s) one chooses to institute in treating said depression.

Well, one theory the fellow brought up (one I hadn't thought about in some time) is the theory of depression as
"Suppressed Rage;" in other words, rage turned inward. Instead of externalizing one's rage and expressing it outwardly toward the object of the hostile emotion, the individual suppresses the rage, turning it in on one's self resulting in what presents as depression.

I couldn't help but think this might explain the depression of TOS's XH.

Just a thought.

What do the professional licensing laws in Ohio have to do with anything?

I added another major when I realized that psychology was a) not particularly rigorous, and b) that there were far too many unemployed psych majors.

I used to be in a fairly lucrative field; I have changed to a less lucrative field that allows me to work close to home and in which age discrimination is rare.

I am not sure why wrychoice has chosen to be so nasty and hostile (ima is positively sweet in comparison, most of the time), although one has to wonder about the circumstances under which her current husband divorced his first wife.

According to this source, male depression at midlife is definitely NOT turned inward:

http://midlife-passages.com/depressi.htm

ima,

Yes, I think when someone falls apart after going to college, it is often depression. Sometimes it is related to executive function issues. Kids don't become excellent students in high school merely by having parents force them to study. It takes a fair amount of motivation to be an excellent student even at that level.

Tos, its sounds like your husband went through a mid life crisis. For him to be devoted and then just turn around and leave. Yes he went with another woman but that was his way out. perminantly for escape.
Did he show any signs???
As for depression. I find it hits anyone at anytime. But from the cases i've seen around me, i've noticed it hits people who are brilliant. I mean, really smart and then they just crack.
My cousin was in political science. She graduated university adn then in one year was in the loony bin. SHe is on meds but still suffers from violent attacks. anger fits. She beat her mother last i heard and we are all scared. We want her committed permanently butthey keep letting her out.
We have 2 other friends who are brilliant too and they are on meds and they too are going to be committed. I dont know anymore , people are just losing it. Just losing it. Since when did so many people take pills for everything and anything under the sun?

Sounds like there is just too much pressure, maybe that is what happened with my nephew. I'm sure he's smart but was his motivation in high school from within himself or because his mom was so strict that he had to have perfect grades to do anything else? Only he knows, but at 19 and saying he's just depressed... well, he might be depressed. But he was always expected to be an over achiever and his mom was always bragging about his achievements so I'm sure he felt that pressure and once he had his freedom, he doesn't seem to care at all what anyone thinks. He doesn't even come to family get gatherings anymore.

organic_maria,

Yes, he showed a number of classic signs of depression. I remember saying to him once that he seemed to have lost all interest in activities, such as hobbies, that he used to enjoy, and he agreed. I tried to get him to talk to his doctor, but I don't think he ever mentioned it.

My husband gets depressed in the winter like clock work. BUt last night he pissed me off again. I asked him to put up a shelf for our son at 11am. He slept all day and i had moved furniture around and everything to make it easier for him. BUt noooooooooo.......by 7pm i started to yell. He told me to shut up etc.e.tc...basically started to treat me like his ex wife. I ripped into him even more basically telling him he is a liar and lazy SOB that i have to do everything!
So i can't depend on him for ANYTHING!!! i am so pist off at times.,, i keep letting it go and letting it go. My expectations of him is nearly down to ZERO NOW. the only thing he does well is play with his son. Which i hope that doesn't stop! Cause he stiffed his other son as well over the weekend. he was suppost to see his hockey game...but did he go......NOOOOOOOOO... whatever, I've given up on him for his kids a logn time ago now and i just have no more energy. I asked him 5 times this week alone when he will phone his daughter just to say hello and he says..later...or maybe. WHAT THE HELL????
you know. If he was to leave...well its his decision but i wouldn't prevent him now. Ifhe was to go with another woman, by all means go for it! I'll give her my condolensces after.!

I've never understood how women put up with as much of the seemingly helpless behavior of their husbands. I get the whole thing that if you don't do it no one will and I hate a messy home. But didn't you see the signs before marriage? A man need s to act like a man not an additional child. Maybe i'm a bit harsh, but that's a deal breaker for me if they can't respect their wives enough to be a Partner.

Yeah we saw the signs, did we really care? No, probably not because they didn't complain about hair products all over the bathroom counter, curtains on the windows, and our insistance of sitting down to a meal.... with a salad.

We were all gooey with love and romanticism that we could "handle it" all and reality hadn't really set in. Chances are we didn't really know how obnoxious he was first thing in the morning (or the fact that he doesn't want to get out of bed), we didn't know how completely insane his mother was, or how insomnia affects him only on nights that you're completely exhausted and feeling a little blue yourself. It's part of the package. Everyone has flaws, some worse than others.

I was raised by my grandmother and my step-grandfather (my grandfather passed away when my dad was 9) and they had a love affair like no other. Did they argue and fight, yes, but in the end, they were crazy for each other. My grandmother told me once that they worked so well together because they were partners and when I asked how they were partners, she replied that where she was weak he was strong, and where he was weak, she was strong and that made them a unit. ONE. A perfectly aligned pair. When she died I was 16, he followed shortly thereafter (6 months), and on his tombstone was written "Beloved husband, father, and grandfather." He never had any children, but my grandmother had seven kids and thirty-two grandchildren.

I'd rather have a man like that who couldn't balance a checkbook, unwad his socks, & left his towels on the bathroom floor but loved my grandmother and my family with every shred of his being, than a man who could do all of that, but was a cold fish.

I agree with you on part of that though, a marriage is a partnership and if they can't respect that, it's time to pick up a lamp and remind him that you didn't marry a teenager or a lap dog, you married a man and you expect him to be the man you married, not an idiotic clone that can't do anything for himself.

I couldn't resist bumping this post to rave about my husband. I just adore him. But I had to wait until I was 42 years old (and single the entire time!) to find him. He has full custody of our son and is the most devoted father, does all the "mother" duties as well as the fatherly ones, as he was a single dad for a while. He does all the bills (on time!), cooks a lot, does the laundry, decorates the house and runs a business. Brings me flowers, rubs my feet and makes me laugh. I simply cannot fathom why his ex left him and took up with the yahoo that she is with now. There are great men out there, but they may take awhile to find!

hecallsmemom said:
...However, the man could burn water so I rarely if ever let him in the kitchen since I'm afraid he'll burn it down...
rolf...mine can cook, but has killed 3 toasters in 3 years! Pop tarts stink when they burn!!!

So if you read my When is it too dangerous strand you will see that hubs does do things that make me want to strangle him with his own ponytail....hahahaha. He IS fixing that now though so I won't mention it anymore.

Aside from that, I will honest to god say he is a pretty awesome man. He works two jobs to support his family. When he's home he cooks for us. He does all the fix it work around the house, takes out the trash without me asking, does most of the grocery shopping. He also tends 100% to the girls on the nights he doesn't work. He plays with them, rides bikes with them, bathes them, does the bed time story ritual. He also is the one who gets them up, fed, dressed and to school every morning. He actually does more with his kids than I have EVER seen a man do.

My father was one of those "It's the womans job" men so I really do appreciate everything he does. He is also really good at stashing money and getting things paid.

He is a long haired tatooed band guy and I thought for sure he was a party guy-slob-womanizer-drunk when I first met him....lol! It's funny how you can't judge people on looks. He is such a family guy. I met him when he was playing one night and the first thing he showed me was the tatoos of the girls names on his lower arms followed by "Wanna see their picture?" I fell in love hook line and sinker.