Well,I can certainly see you being upset about your wedding day.
I'm sorry you feel really mean.If it makes you feel better,alot of people in your situation feel the same way.

Besides the usual step parent/child problems,maybe you and your step daughter's personalities just clash. Many quieter people have a hard time getting along with or liking LOUD, ANIMATED people.
Many older people simply find noisey children to be unbearable. My own grandparents who baby-sit my cousins cant wait for me to come over and help out so they can have some quiet!
Also,it doesnt sound as though you two had much of a chance to really get to know each other. She lived in another state as you said.
Honestly,your husband is the REAL problem here.You said if you say anything he gets angry at you.Many parents dont like hearing negative things about their children,but he should not live in denial either and disregard how you feel.

If he does nothing to disapline his daughter (did he even do anything at your wedding to stop her bad behavior?) then it is no wonder you find it hard to like her if he allows her to be bratty.
(And it is not just step children that are like this. I know alot of people whose kids really grate my nerves cuz their parents let them call the shots instead of being a parent like they should be!!!)
It wouldnt hurt to meet with her again sometime though.6 years is a long time,and she should be almost an adult now.She has probably changed alot since then. You may find you two get along better now.
Whatever the case though,your husband NEEDS to hear what you are saying,like it or not.He needs to understand that you werent there to see her as a baby and grow attatched to her.You didnt see all her firsts and the cute things she did.
All you know is a 11 year old who is devious at your wedding and a bit of a smart alec. Hopefully if you explain it to him on these terms he will understand how you feel.

But,you should also keep trying.A great relationship could come out of it! You never know.
Welcome to the forum~I hope you find all the support and advice you are looking for.

Coolmama,

I really appreciate your feedback because I haven't been able to speak to anyone about this. And it's nice to know that maybe I'm not so crazy. Although I will be the first to admit that I have never liked loud, noisy people, period, let alone children, twice as vocal, twice as demanding. I know my husband is the problem. His other offspring over the years have distanced themselves from this youngest child but have never been able to say anything directly to him. Instead, I get to hear it. The oldest son thinks of her as spoilt and manipulative. The younger son won't let her stay with him after she went through his things and helped herself to a few items. My husband none the less remains extremely protective of her, more out of guilt I think than anything else. And you really can't say anything to him. I've tried but have ended up being personally attacked. He'll say things like, "You've never had a child. What would you know about bringing up a child?" I've been pregnant three times resulting in three miscarriages. The last was the worst. I didn't get out of bed for three weeks. He couldn't understand what was wrong with me. Before I lost the baby, I remember him saying, "This will be good for SD".... he even wanted her at the birth to which I resolutely said 'no'. SD is almost eighteen now and showing no signs of change. Recently she demanded her $20,000 trust fund and was furious with her dad when he told her it had already been spent on her education. We had to put her in a private school as there wouldn't have been much hope for her otherwise. To this day we don't know what her grades are. I gather they're bad because she won't tell us and the school sends report cards directly to her mother who also won't tell us. My husband is at fault, because deep down I don't really think he wants to know. She calls me on my birthdays but it's always to remind me her birthday is the following week and what am I going to buy her? Her behaviour is not the way I was brought up. At times it borders on tacky. She may change over time but right now I want nothing to do with her. I can't even bare to look at her let alone talk to her. And yet my husband thinks she's 'wonderful', that she's had a hard life (????) and why don't I understand? I know a lot of people who have hard lives, endured hardships beyond most imaginations and I never heard them crying 'foul'.... Except for me, right now, I'm crying foul.

aldra, wait a sec, I'm confused...how old was the stepdaughter when her dad's live in lover who raised her moved out? Does your stepdaugher still have contact with her? Did your husband have the stepdaughter move out shorly after the lover left? The first time you met your stepdaughter was the day before your wedding?

Raek,

My apologies. Reading back over my post, I realise some of it was a little incoherant and now I wonder why I wrote all that stuff. No excuse, except that it has been building up for a long and I was having the proverbial 'puke'.

My step daughter was four when her father took custody. He had several women he was seeing at the time but the lover that I mentioned was the one that convinced him it would be best for everyone's interest if she moved in and helped him look after the girl. This is before he sought custody and it did indeed help having a qualified doctor stand up in court saying that she would help this man look after his child. The birth mother didn't really have a chance but in all fairness, it was a situation she very much attracted. In all respects, the doctor girl-friend was a good surrogate parent but my husband didn't love her and so he left. By then his daughter was about ten. He'd always planned to eventually send her back to her mother, reasoning that his daughter at some point needed to know her. The mother by this time had settled down, living a reasonable life in a reasonable town. The unfortunate part of the story is that step-daughter didn't take to kindly to being uprooted from what seemed like a perfect family situation where she was the centre of the universe to single parent senario where she only saw dad occassionally because he was living in another state. A little before I met (six months into my relationship with her father) she had actually threatened her mother with a bread knife. Suffice to say, that upon meeting her, I was extremely wary. I married my husband two and a half years later. During this time there interstate flights by step-daughter, which I often paid for, so she could see her dad and her half brothers and sister who all lived in the same city as her father and I. Whilst I found these visits hard (I'd get so stressed I'd get sick) I never discouraged my husband seeing his daughter. I realised early in the piece that as father and daughter it was important to incourage their relationship. I also realised that there was never going to be any way that I was going to like this girl who whilst being my husband's child, was/is absolutely nothing like him. My husband knew how I felt before he married me. And yet he married me. As I mentioned before, it doesn't matter what she does, from running up cell phone bills into the thousands, running up my credit card - yes, she got the number to well the list goes on and on...... he always finds a reason to forgive her based on how hard she's had it which I don't completely buy. If I critize her then I'm the bad guy. It's gotten to the point where if he brings her up I will say nothing. She's going to visit us in the summer and I have half a mind not to be here but feel that I should be in case she goes through my things the way she has in the past. I hate being so paranoid and I feel so mean spirited but there it is.

Stealing your credit card and running up cell bills into the thousands are pretty serious stuff. I would be pretty "miffed" if ANYONE I knew did that to me. In fact,I might even press charges.(at least with the credit card or just contact the bank and REFUSE to pay what she spent on it)

I think from what you've told us you're doing the right thing by not mentioning her at all. I would continue too. Your husband obviously feels threatend somehow by you telling him what she is doing.So just not talking about her and avoiding her are your only real options unless you decide not to be with him anymore.(which is a bit drastic since you really dont have to see her much)
If your husband has a problem with you not being there when she visits,tell him you have a problem with him wearing side blinders and leave it at that.

I can understand how you would have such a hard time with all of this. I can also see that your husband has some guilt over the situation. Obviously he probably felt guilty for the 4 years before he had custody of his daughter that he was leaving her in an unstable environment. He probably feels guilty that he didn't stick with the live in girlfriend who helped him to raise her, he probably feels guilty that when things didn't work out with the live in girlfriend that not long after that he shipped her back off to a mother she barely knew in a "somewhat" stable environment. I can see how your husband would probably feel sorry for her and treat her with a special kind of "kid gloves" because he couldn't be there for her in a way that he wishes he could've been. I can understand how her behavior ranges from annoying to downright criminal and it is hard for you to bear. Please understand that from her perspective, you can choose to make yourself her enemy by acting resentful toward her or you can hope for the best and give her time and the chance to change. She is still young and you have many years ahead with her. I understand it is hard for you. I'm sure your husband understands it too, but he also understands that things are not exactly great for his daughter. I'm not saying that you should accept her bad behavior and overlook it, but you should also try to see where she is coming from and why, and do what you can to be her friend instead of her victim

My husband feels guilt like no other person I have ever met. However it's a somewhat mecurical that I've never really gotten my head aroung. He was happy in the beginning not to be a part of his youngest daughter's life as long as he thought her mother was looking after. Unfortunately this was not the case and he felt compelled to apply for and obtain full custody. He was seeing several women at the time (having endured a previous twenty year marriage - committment was the last thing on his mind) and this particular girlfriend (I think) saw a way into his life by offering to help him with his daughter whilst living with him. He made it very clear that he would keep seeing other women and this he did. So there's no guilt there. In the end though he realised that the situation as it stood wasn't going to work. He didn't love this woman and he was only good as a father if he didn't have to do the work. Meaning packing lunches, school runs, helping with homework etc. These two later on had dreadful arguments and I remember on more than one occassion him reffering to her as 'the hired help'. Don't get me wrong, this woman got a lot out of the arrangement.... several overseas trips, she didn't have to work the whole time she was with him and then he even gave her a house. But he did feel guilt when he sent his daughter back to her mother. Not because he was going to miss her but because somewhere inside of himself he felt he hadn't been maybe the father he thought he should of been. Even now, when he's spent time with her he gets so stressed out trying to be perfect dad when his heart really isn't it. Often he's been with her he will call me up and tell me how pissed off he is with her. I don't buy into it. Just let him vent his fustrations. No point in adding fuel to the fire. My method for survival, I've begun to believe is to stay right out of it and if she runs off with the family silver, so be it. I love my husband but this is kind of his ball.

That is good that you dont feed into the drama and add fuel to the fire. By staying quiet and neutral and not pointing out every little thing she does wrong,maybe leaves him more open to see how she is for himself.
No one EVER wants to hear bad things about their kids...but then sometimes something happens and we can finally see it for ourselves.If every one around is constantly pointing out what they do wrong,our first instinct as parents is to defend them.Even if we KNOW they are wrong.
Raek often gives good advice,but until you can reach a point of calm when it comes to her,you probably are better off avoiding her.

Thanks. I must admit, I've been infinitely calmer since I found this forum and the infinite wisdom shared throughout it's posts. I must also apologise for all the dreaful typo's I've been making. It's a little late.

aldra,

I certainly understand your entire situation with your SD.

I agree with you when you say coming to this Web site allows us to gain some wisdom on our situation and to help us become more calm about it.

I certainly am taking better care of myself mentally and spiritually in regards to my 26 yr old SD and DH's attitude towards her and thus towards me.

I've put in practice this week some of the advice I've read so far on this board.

Two nights ago, my DH was talking about his SD to a friend while I was just sitting there between them. Just the thought of hearing about her makes me sick to my stomach. A month or even a week ago I would have stayed there to listen to the conversation, but this time, I got up went to my room, closed the door. I praised myself for taking care of ME for once. YES.

Then, last night, I heard DH talking on the phone with her. Once again, I left the room. I'll do everything not to get involved with her anymore or with her father about her. It's about time I put an end to 18 years of suffering.

Keep posting aldra,

Hi everyone-

fluers- thank you so much for your insight into what is truly a troublesome situation.....for those of us who foresee adult SC continuing on a tumultuous path, it's helpful to hear from someone in the situation.

aldra-hang in there-it is absolutely frustrating to have to "survive" the behaviors of a child-adult (I "invented" ;) this word to describe children on the cusp of adulthood) in your home.

mama and raek--I have seen your postings on several threads, including one I started, and this one---thanks for responding and helping us sort through things!

I know I could get ripped for this so I feel the need to post a disclaimer---this thread is clearly discussing how to handle SC who are UNACCEPTABLY DIFFICULT. I AM NOT GENERALIZING IN ANY WAY---so the following bit is for those of us who have tried to love, befriend, assist, nuture, etc and have been rebuffed, ignored, unresonably hated and disregarded as spouses of parents, adults, and in some cases, just as people.

Please, if you have helpful, supportive suggestions, I hope that you will share them....but if your intent is to explain to any of us why we are wrong, bad or horrible---keep reading and understand that we need a place, too.

It can very difficult to be a stepparent no matter how amicable things are...there are lots of toes to step on an it can be exausting trying to tiptoe around the feelings of everyone involved. When you have a child-adult who is a jerk, things get especially messy. It IS very hard---through marriage we become bound to people that we would NEVER associate with or invite into our lives based on their behavior. Two things happen....1---we're told that "we knew what we signed up for"---that might be the singlemost ridiculous statement I have ever heard.....most of us (I like to count myself), are good people, great intentions....there are way to many variables involved for any of us to "know". and 2---SC are let off the hook because many times they came into our lives as children, so we are despised, resented and misunderstood when as they grow, they become people that we do not like.

I guess my question is this---WHY, I ask, (hypothetically speaking, in my case---my in-laws back me completely) if we were to have difficulties with adult in-laws, are we sympathized with, but if a child-adult or adult-child of our spouse causes as much (and sometimes more)discord and disruption we get slayed for not liking them. Again, I am not talking about "standard" blended family or teenaged behavior (yes, I know it's hard to define "standard" behavior---but I think we can all agree on the difference between generally acceptable and completely ridiculous).

I'm relatively new, am a little nervous while posting---afraid I will get attacked for my views----but overall, I grateful for the insight and support!

mmommy,

Don't be afriad of being attacked! I think there are very few people on this forum who just attack somebody else's views without first trying to see where that person is coming from, and where you are coming from is perfectly reasonable.

You ask why if we were to have difficulties with adult in-laws, we are sypathized with, but if a child-adult or adult-child of your spouse causes as much discord and disruption you get slayed for not liking them...I understand why you would not like them. The only problem I would have is if you were to try to cut the adult-child or child-adult out of the life of the bio-parent. I think that the bio-parent, whether custodial or not, has an obligation to a child which they do not have to a parent. The bio-parent was also instrumental (by way of being too leanient, too strict, too uninvolved, overly involved, whatever) in the way that the adult-child/child-adult has developed into a person. I think that if you truly have a problem with the way the stepchild is and the stepchild is an adult or almost an adult, the best thing you can do for your own sanity and for wellbeing of the child involved is to let your spouse/their parent deal with it and to step away from the situation. I think that is what many in this forum have done including aldra and fleurs_gardner.

Don't you think for every one of us on this site, there are 10 step parents that are having a positive experience?
I know that I am having a negative and positive experience with my situation. I have one step son who's behavior is totally unacceptable in any realm of thinking. But I have the other who is the absolute joy of my life too and he makes it all worth while.
I think the criticism comes from the fact that mothers aren't supposed to dislike children. We are supposed to love and nurture them. Protect, defend, hug them to our bosoms and tell them they are the most precious things in the world.
What is a step mother to do then? We think we are supposed to do that, step "mother" them and are rebuffed. We are told by someone NOT to do that - you aren't my mother. We are put in the position of mothering, be it on a surrogate level, and then rejected. No matter how well intentioned we are, no matter how much of a good mom we are.
No step mother wants her step kid to grow up and be an unhappy non functioning adult with a chip on their shoulder and blames the world for all their woes. We feel like a failure if that happens. We have to sit idly by though and watch it happen in the unfortunate instances. Some one tells these children it is ok to behave this way. We don't tell them this, but we get the rap for it. As long as these kids can get away with this behavior - no consequences - it will continue. My biggest worry is that when they hit the real world, the real world tells them that logic doesn't work. They become those adults that think the world is out to get them and life isn't fair. Didn't our parents tell us, get over it, sometimes life isn't fair? Continually making excuses for their behavior, allowing them to perceive themselves as so called victims, giving them inappropriate power in a family and marriage. Somebody isn't parenting if that is how they are turning out.
Good stepmoms take their job seriously. We do care alot how these kids turn out. We do love them and try to help them grow up to be happy and successful. We care about these kids first because we love their parent. Then as we live with them and really get to know them, we love them.
In a few instances we are unable to. That is when we start to beat ourselves up. Why can't I love this child, what is wrong with me? We wrack our brains, keep trying and trying, read books, get counseling, pray. To no avail. Then that is where the blaming comes in. We blame ourselves, we blame the ex, we blame the kid, we blame the other parent. Everyone is trying to figure out where the blame lies. In the mean time the kid goes on and nothing changes, nothing gets fixed. The successful families it seems like, find the answer to unite and step up and parent, rather than get stuck in the blame. That takes cooperation and trust. Trust your spouse that he or she isn't the evil step parent, that their motives are good. Trust the bio parent will deal with their child and back you if you are in the position to have to parent them. We all know that agreeing on values and parenting styles is so important. It is getting unstuck. Most of us here it seems are stuck. Here is a place where we get feed back, figure out that we really aren't crazy, or maybe we are. Mostly we are confused. But we are here, sharing our stories and encouragement, and hope that we will find our way out of the misery and make it better. If we didn't care and want to make it work, just wanted to blame and complain - we'd get a divorce and be done. Many of us love our spouses so much that we are willing to work it out.
I'll bet there are a lot of members who aren't active anymore, because they found the answers and have moved on. I bet some of them come back from time to time, remember where they were, and share their success stories and encouragement.
Damn I hope I get there some day!

"I think the criticism comes from the fact that mothers aren't supposed to dislike children."
This is probably the most true statement I have ever read.

Mmommy,Welcome to the forum! You also posted some very insightful words of wisdom. I have been attacked before,but I also stand my ground. Like RAEK said,people shouldnt attack or judge unless they know what you are personally going through. Honestly,even the different opinions from mine I still enjoy hearing because there are so many angles to see so many problems from.

coolmamma...you said "Raek often gives good advice,but until you can reach a point of calm when it comes to her,you probably are better off avoiding her" and I'm not sure how to take this. Did you mean that aldra is better off avoiding ME, or did you mean that aldra is better off avoiding her stepdaughter?

sarahl...I agree with a lot of what you posted....I, too am in the midst of a "split" situation. I have a fantastic relationship with my SS; SD categorically hates me...the damndest thing is that the positive relationship with SS has evolved naturally, while my SD is much higher maintenance, and regardless of what accomodation is made, it's never enough.

I also agree that the best thing to do is to take a step back....I think this is going to be easier for me once SD is out of the house. Right now, I have DH,5yoa son,and SD in the same house, so not only do I remove myself, but also my son...I like to call it "running interference"..... :)

Thanks again, everyone, for your insight and empathy....

BTW, raek....not for me to say, but I think coolmama was talking about SD---not you!

mmommy, I was thinking the same thing, but just wanted to be clear. I thought that coolmama and I did a good job of understanding one another. I just wanted to be sure I wasn't ruffling feathers inadvertantly.

I had to write to thank sarahl for voicing my frustration at the rejection I've felt slowly from my now 19-year-old SD.
I've tried to be loving, nurturing. I wanted to give all the wonderful mothering attention to my SD when I met her at age 15 since I was told she never got that from her own bio-mom. SD's parents had been apart for 13 years. Her bio-mom already had a live-in boyfriend when I met her dad.
Since our marriage nearly 4 years ago, SD has lived with us full-time since bio-mom threatened to have her raped as a punishment!
At first I thought, this poor neglected girl. No wonder she doesn't have any good personal hygiene habits, housekeeping skills or etiquette! I'll help her like I helped my own two daughters grow to become strong, independent ladies.
Boy, was I ever in for a rude awakening!
I wanted to share cooking, sewing, painting, gardening hobbies with her, take her shopping, guide her through schooling, ... everything she wasn't getting. But no. She said, "You might change my dad, but you're not going to change me."
Change her dad? I got rid of mismatched, worn out sheets that weren't my taste. And the broken down futon had to go!
So over time, I realized my attempts to demonstrate by example to not belch loudly (or at least say excuse me), spit phlegm out the window, keep a neat room, wash regularly and dress decently(not just when going out in public)and not yank food of my plate were going nowhere. I'd point these things out to her dad, and he'd say, "She didn't mean to offend you." Well, I'm not a prissy princess, but she's nearly 20 and still collects bugs, keeps a filthy room (stinky pet mouse and snake), rolls out of bed anywhere between 10 a.m. to noon and says "I don't need a full-time job."
I don't expect her, or anyone else, to be my clone. But she turns to all these other women at our congregation for input and follows their advice.
We've had plenty of discussions and maybe some of her outward behavior has changed, but I'm not, nor will ever be, her confidante.
I've resigned myself to being my husband's wife, and not her mother. Nor I guess,even her friend.
I wanted so much more, but have been told through words and actions "No thanks!"
So thanks to sarahl for saying what my heart has been feeling with no one who really understands my disappointment.

What is wrong with collecting bugs and having a pet snake and mouse? (Unless the snake escapes, in which case the mouse might be in trouble).

"I wanted to share cooking, sewing, painting, gardening hobbies with her, take her shopping."

Not everyone is interested in any of these activities. I certainly wasn't when I was a teen (or now, for that matter). I would much rather have a pet rodent.

Presumably all the other nasty habits are A-OK with you as well, TOS?

One person's definition of "neat room," and "dressed decently" may be quite different from another's. In any case, this is not "My Fair Lady." Apparently the girl didn't buy into the whole makeover idea, which is not at all surprising.

My first thought was how disappointed the girl must be to have someone move in who thought her pets were disgusting rather than cool.

TOS, I really don't think that's the point of the post. Roseplanter was just trying to find a hobby that she can use to bond with her stepdaughter. She's not trying to be mean or malicious, just wants to make things better.

Honestly, these ladies are just trying to get understanding for their situation. I did remember someone post a statement to the effect of "If you haven't been in their shoes, don't judge them." Leave them be, TOS.

What are you doing on a gardenweb TOS if you don't like gardening? I think the snake would much prefer the garden to the house.

I can't stand snakes in the house myself. I always remember the snake that got into the toilet. Use your imagination people. I always wonder what kind of emotional gratification you can get from a slither, other than it freaks most people out. Mmmm fun to cuddle with, and then snake skin all over the house.

But hey TOS I would happy to send all the snakes over to your place.

I think the point is that Roseplanter apparently expected the girl to be interested in activities similar to what she was interested in, which are primarily what people of my mother's generation would have considered "feminine" hobbies. Roseplanter might have had better luck forging a bond with this girl had she cultivated an interest in herpetology.

The REAL point is that Roseplanter just wanted to find a common hobby/ activity so they could get to know each other and bond. It turned out that they don't share the same hobbies, no big deal. At least she was TRYING to get to know the girl.
I tell you, the details kill me.

I agree that Roseplanter has had nice intentions in wanting to get closer to SD, but it does disturb me some that it seems so very conditional on SD not only improving her manners and work ethic (arguably worthwhile things for anyone to improve and common enough conditions for the average step-parent) but also her *clothing* and an entire overhaul of her interests, hobbies and perhaps even personality. I also don't think SD much fancies being another 'project' for Roseplanter. Not to sound harsh, but that is likely how SD feels about it if Roseplanter is mostly all criticism towards SD and not too much praise or even interest in who SD is on her own. I have a feeling that a few gestures here & there on Roseplanter's part towards learning about SD's interests will go a long way in forming a bond with her. Ask her about the care & feeding of exotic pets and she'll probably talk on & on for hours. Find a cool show on snakes that's coming on Animal Planet or Discovery and record it to watch with her. In her presence and/or earshot, let her overhear you proudly tell a friend "MY stepdaughter has a really unique interest in exotic animals. She could be a vet or an entomologist one day." See if things don't improve, and if SD doesn't come around one day wanting to learn how to paint (scientific illustration?) or sew a snake cage cozy or something.

It reminds me of my X. The only things he wants to do with DD are HIS hobbies. I am always the one who took her to things SHE wanted to do.

I kind of agree with TOS.

I was 14 when my dad and stepmom married. I love my stepmom dearly. But if she had stepped into my life and declared that my housekeeping skills, table manners, etiquette, personal hygiene, and manner of dress were all lacking even if it were objectively true, I would not have been receptive. Or if she had stepped in and tried to "share" her interests rather than getting to know me and learning what mine were. I suspect you got off to a bad start with your stepdaughter. I'm sure you meant well, but the mere fact that she told you that you might be able to change her dad, but not her, suggests that what you saw as "help", she saw as "criticism" and as you trying to change who she is.

If you are interested in my opinion, I would suggest that you back off. The two of you have decades of dealing with each other ahead of you. Try to start over, and take it more slowly this time. Let the relationship develop naturally between the two of you, rather than try to force it into whatever mold or expectations you had in mind that it should be because you married her father. You may still find that you don't particularly like each other as people, but you may also find that without the expectations or pressures of parent/child issues, you get along just fine. She is spending time with, and taking advice from, mature members of your church congregation? How could this possibly be a bad thing? I understand that your feelings are hurt that she is not seeking *your* advice, but while I am sympathetic, that is your issue not hers. Do you want to be told whose advice you should be taking? I think that for the sake of your future relationship, if you haven't already done so, you need to completely back off from trying to help or advise her and simply let this girl find herself. Then get to know who she turns out to be... with no expectations of what kind of relationship will develop. Just let it happen naturally.

does everyone always argue over posts that are more than a year old...

TOS wasn't your ex a snake I know mine was...

I thought we were discussing Roseplanter's post of 10/5/08.