Sometimes the exH's/exW's actually CARE about the other's welfare. I was happy for my exH when I heard that he had bought the kind of vehicle he always wanted; I came out to look at it when he picked them up (and he looked at my car when I got a new/used one). I was saddened and concerned when his car was totaled by a truck. When he broke a bone and when he had surgery I did appreciate our kids telling me how he was doing. Even the shirt thing might be slightly relevant - I was a bit saddened when his current wife made him discard all his beloved shirts and bought him new ones in a yuppie style that he always hated and found uncomfortable. Even if it is his own fault, it is still sad.

welfare is one thing. A shirt, a trip to the store, a new golf club is another.

gooseegg, it does slow down as she gets older. As well , its also her mother that is the enabler. She constantly asks what is going on but when my DH asks its none of his business. lol...
She is now 12 years old and is starting to see alot of things BM is two faced about and is starting to understand the injustice of it all , mainly because the two parents just hate one another. Its not fair for her, she didnt' ask for it but its life and its her reality. I told her my fathers realationship was crappy too but as you get older you realize you didn't choose your parents but you can choose the amount of time you see and interact with them.
She doesn't like her mom and she doesn't liek that fact her mom doesn't like me cause i have not done anythign wrong. I've never interfered cause i'm a stepchild myself and know the boundaries. I let things go and let them ride cause some things you cannot change.
I had a friend of mine tell me let BM know cause as long as your family is happy after a while she will stop digging. This BM, my DH's ex is always diggin for misery cause her life is miserable. We are not, so we have now focused so much on positive reinforcement in our household and constant communication that its working well. Some days are a flop but for the most part its good.
Its come to the point where, last sunday, his ex called to fight with him about money of course while SD was over. After the phone call, SD turns around and tell her father ' dont be angery and miserable now for the whole day cause of her Daddy!!! and i said ' yah, let her keep her misery to herself and stop spreading it around! ' We are in agreement that negative stuff are to shut off from our house and SD agrees and wants to keep it nice and quiet and peaceful. She says she loves coming over cause there is no fighting and loudness at our house.
Sorry i'm rambling! liek i said, there are up and downs.Take it one days at a time and the reporting does slow down. Plus, dont let it bother you too much. I let it bother me and the minute i let go and started encouraging SD tell her everything. Tell her how happy you are! BM hated it and wants to hear nothing now.
And we dont tell her our activities when she is not around. Period. She is not here, she doesn't have to share.
You have to have more talk with your husband or do what i did a few times, i planned things and would not tell him until the last minute. I also kept repeating myself on the topic until he was sick of it!

organic, good point, it just seems to get worse, not better, no matter how happy we are, pretend to be, or anything. FD, i totally am in agreement that excting news is to share, regardless, and i have no problem with that..if we go ice skating, a movie, or dinner, those are completley understandable...but its the little things that are unnecessary, not to mention that she always is emblishing things...i dont want to say lie, but emblish...

her BM is a piece of work, and she is obsessed with our lives, and always has been, and creepy is definetly a word i could use there. If SD doesnt offer up information, her BM will literally wear her down for more "information", and i mean for days on end nagging about it, and thats when she tells my husband her little "comments" AND will go and tell other family members, so that everyone knows about every little thing in our lives...weird it is...

ah well, i dont want to continue to beat a dead horse, and thanks to all :-)

I understand how you feel. My 25 year-old SD does this, too. Whatever she hears at our house, she tells her Mom.

We have learned to only discuss very superficial things with SD. Otherwise, she'll tell her Mom, who has no problem in picking up the telephone to call whoever it is she heard something about through SD, who heard it at our house.

I don't really know how to address it, other than that we don't talk about things we'd prefer to keep private.
Here's how it works in our situation:
A__ doesn't care about new shirts or anything like that, but sometimes talks about things from the other houses. We don't really care what BM ate for supper yesterday, and have told A__ that he doesn't need to tell us that sort of stuff. But if that's what he wants to share with us, then we let him (and on one hand I'd rather hear about "Andguesswhat, Mom made a whole chicken in the black pot that goes in the oven" than "Andguesswhat, in Warcraft...")
We just don't ask much detail about the other houses unless it's directly relevant ("Did you have breakfast before Mom dropped you off?" "Yes" "What did you have and how long ago?")

And AFAIK, BM doesn't ask much either. Sometimes A__ has told her something that didn't make sense and she called to ask about it - Here's an amusing example: "Did you tell A__ you were going to throw him in the dumpster for bad grammar?" "Huh? What? No... Hmmm... Oh - got it! Ceph corrected him to aren't when he said ain't and I told him that saying ain't is how trashy people speak. Hahaha, he thought I was going to put him in the dumpster for bad grammar? No."
But I'd probably be on the phone if I had a kid and they thought someone had threatened to throw them in the dumpster for bad grammar too.

We don't talk about a few things in front of A__ that we might not want to get back to BM at that time or via that means - relationship stuff, money, etc - but my BF is pretty open with BM about most things, so it's not like there's a lot of secrets to spill.
A__ doesn't know we're talking about getting engaged. He asks us all the time when we're getting married and we just say that "We don't know. We'll tell you when we know". I spend my weekends at my BF's place and A__ recently asked if I live there too "No, I have my own place for now. Dad and I have talked about it, but we were wondering how you would feel about if I lived here too? It wouldn't be for awhile yet, but we wanted to ask what you think"
He mentioned that one to BM, who told HER mom, who told my BF's SM, who told my BF's dad, who asked my BF about it... We would have preferred that one remain private for awhile longer, but had agreed to ask A__ what he thought next time it came up in an organic way, and that's when it came up.

My only suggestion (other than don't talk about things you don't want other people to know) probably won't work... it would be to ask BM to cut it out "We don't grill DD about the things that happen in your house, and would appreciate the same from you. If it's directly relevant to DD's care and wellbeing, then ask away. But we'd prefer if you didn't encourage her to tell you every detail of our household"

June - how do you deal with the emotions of it? i cant contain my frustration, or irritation.

Ceph, i agree, we have said those things to both SD AND her BM, and the SD just lies and says she didnt...um, then how do you explain why she comments on his new game? Duh! and BM gets so much joy that my husband feels the need to mention, because in her mind, she got one over on him, and made him talk to her.

as far as the things we dont want other people to know, like our finances and such, SD has become extremly "talented" about asking round-about questions to get her answers so she can tell her BM. I can see right through it, but of course dad doesnt want to believe that thats why she is doing it.

Sad thing, is BM has a BF, and BF has a daughter too and we thought it would finally end...but oh gosh, hes just AS bad!!! a match made in heaven :-)

And oh, when SD does mention any tiny bit of information that is relevant to her well being and dad as to confront BM about it, BM goes psycho telling him its none of his businees who she lives with...yadda yadda yadda

organic,
your situation sounds familiar.

BF's X calls and sends sometimes awful angry emails or voice messages to him and to both kids. She likes to do it before the weekend, always. Friday night or Saturday morning. Obviously in order to ruin the weekend.

BF and his DDs got much better dealing with it. He used to get so depressed that our weekend would be ruined. He is learning not let it to get to him. She did it again last weekend, emailed something Friday night in regards to some kind of bill accidentally being sent to her house: email was full of accusations and madness. He refuses to talk on the phone to her because it is always yelling, so now she reserves to emails. There is no custody issue, no CS, kids are grown, one is in college and lives with dad. But she is still mad about something. And she is the one who left him for TOM, but I guess it doesn't go too well.

"And oh, when SD does mention any tiny bit of information that is relevant to her well being and dad as to confront BM about it, BM goes psycho telling him its none of his businees who she lives with...yadda yadda yadda"

*Glad* to know it's not just us . . . :-)

"(and on one hand I'd rather hear about "Andguesswhat, Mom made a whole chicken in the black pot that goes in the oven" than "Andguesswhat, in Warcraft...")"

OMG - lauging at this one as this goes through my head 10 times a day, but insert Mario instead of Warcraft!!

The other day, I was driving with SD and she saw an auto glass truck. She blurts out "That guy thinks he's better than mom's BF!" I was surprised and asked her "that guy knows your mom's BF?" (knowing this is probably impossible.) She tells me that "no, he has the same kind of truck as he does." So I tell her that he probably just does the same kind of work as mom's BF, it doesn't mean he thinks he's better. She gets quiet.

Then blurts out that "Mom's BF's ex wife has an ugly face." Again, I am surprised and don't know why she is blurting out things when we aren't even talking about anything. So, I ask her "why do you say that? Isn't she nice?" and SD says, "No, she's trying to take mom's bf away from her. She just walks into mom's BF's house without knocking when she goes to get her kids." I just said "oh" and she stopped telling me things.

I find that if I don't give it any attention and don't act interested, she gives up.

There are some things I (and my exH too) wish my kids would remember to report - like the fact that their father will be away the next week and won't be taking them to dinner. It would be a lot more convenient than having them remember half an hour after he would normally have been here that, "Oh, yeah, he said he wouldn't be coming this week." Of course I wish they would remember to deliver phone messages from various people a bit more reliably, too.

but TOS, shouldn't you and your ex communicate these things directly rather than make your children your messengers?

And this is TOSs fault that her X doesnt give her a heads up. Neither does mine, guess thats my fault too.

kkny, does TOS have a voice? I've noticed that you jump in there to defend her a lot.

Yes, it is both your faults if you allow your children to be used as messengers. You should know what is happening with your kids and if the kids say "oh yeah, he isn't coming this week." and you didn't know about it, then a responsible parent calls up the other parent and says, "next time you are leaving town or not visiting on your time, please call me or let me know instead of telling the kids and not me."

He may be the one using the kids as a messenger but if you allow it, you are just as guilty.

Oh for heaven's sake - you'd criticize me no matter what I said. This is ridiculous. Neither my exH nor I are "guilty" of anything. Whether he tells the kids or tells me is no big deal. My youngest child is 12, and half of the ones he sees are adults. The only trouble with him "using the kids as messengers" in this sense is that they aren't very good at it.

When "experts" say not to use the kids as messengers, they are referring to things like "tell your mother that I am not going to sending the alimony check on time" or similar - conveying messages from one PARENT to another. In this situation, we are talking about something that is between the father and the children - I only need to know because I seem to be the designated event coordinator around here.

And do you think I dont tell him that.

Why you assume every mom is irresponsible is annoying. Oh I guess you just assume I am irresonsible. Depedneing on the studies I have seen 85-90 percent of dads dont have custody.

I cant even make him spend time with his DD, do you think I can get a heads up from him?

And this is a blog, Ima, you are not the only one allowed to post.

Am I the only one posting here? Or do you just have a problem with hearing the truth?

who cares how many dads have custody? neither parent should be using the kids as messengers, regardless of where the kids live. If I told SD to tell your mom such & such, I guess you would say I would be wrong (because I'm a SM and only SM's do wrong) but it's okay for a parent to do? or is it just mom's?

Do you guys take responsibility for anything?

And so, again, its my fault that Dad doesnt tell me? Arent Dads supposed to have any responsibiltiy? I dont think anyone minds if he tells her to tell me he wont be around next week etc., but in any event, this is communicaiton coming from him. Why should I take responsibiltiy for what he does?

"Or do you just have a problem with hearing the truth"

Gee, I keep forgetting that only imamommy knows "the truth."

Most mediation agreements, custody orders and every parenting book I've read says to not use your children as messengers, whether anyone minds. It's putting your children in the middle.

Why is it when I say something you don't like, I get "And this is a blog, Ima, you are not the only one allowed to post."? So, I can only assume that it's because you have no other defense to using your kids as messengers, so is that your way of telling me to shut up? Isn't this a public forum or am I only allowed to post when kkny says? Give me a break.

Putting the kids in the middle of what?? In the middle of logistical arrangements between themselves and their father? That's ridiculous. That is not what "putting them in the middle" means at all, and imamommy knows it. Whether they go out to dinner or Tuesday or on Thursday or not at all some week is between their father and the children - I just need to know so I can add or remove it from the calendar. I don't care who the heck tells me, just as long as SOMEONE remembers to.

Ima,

1. If you use a casusal update on pickups etc as a "putting child in middle" I seriously question your judgement. I think you should go back and read more details in the books, etc. which you refer to. I think those books are talking more about -- telling child to tell dad if I dont get CS payment you cant go to camp.

2. Even if this were putting child in the middle, it is the dad doing it. Why is everything alwasys the moms fault with you.

Finedreams, the DH's ex did that at the beginning...the first 2 years. The phone calls jsut to ruin the weekends. I told my DH to disengage , that she is pist off that he is out of debt, happy and has somenone to lean on. She kept calling me his rich greek girlfriend adn would tell her daughter that we will never marry and your father is a loser.
LOL! I married, had a child with him and i will try for a second child in 2 more years. (NEed more time to lose extra weight to gain it ALL BACK!! HAHAHAHAHHlol!) My SD wants me to have a girl. She had that on her xmas wish list year...i told her its not up to me boy or girl...as long as the baby is healthy:)
Once i married him , the phone calls slow down and once i had the baby it got nasty , as in physical confrontations...once a year that would happen. I finally had enough, sent her a letter to her and her lawyer for her to seek help and so stop doing things like that in front of her kids or i will have to involve child services. I think soemtimes , she is just so angry she doesnt' care who is in front of her but she has to think of her kids...so once that letter was sent, i haven't seen her come near the car...her common law husband doesnt' even coem out side.
ITs unfortunate the SD is used as a messenger in this case. I've told my DH its wrong! but they both continue to use her like that. Both my DH and his ex are gonnna get it when she is older. I'm sure she'll tel them off! And they both deserve it!
I think the fault is on both parents! its a stupid game! and i feel sorry for the kids! Yes, i do agree soemtimes its the mom;s fault or its dad's fault. I've seen my DH as like such a JERK!
I don't like the exwife because of her actions but i do understand her. She does have it rough but alot of the BS in her life she has brought on herself. She's got to lose that loser husband of hers!

TOS,

If you are sitting there waiting for your ex to take the kid(s) to dinner and half an hour after he's supposed to be there, the kid remembers his message "oh yeah, dad's not coming this week." and THAT is how YOU find out, are you going to say "oh okay honey, that's fine."? I doubt it. If you are a normal person, you are probably going to be annoyed that you weren't told. (assuming you are normal) Are you now annoyed at your ex for not being there? or annoyed at your child for not telling you? Either way, the kid is going to be made to feel bad because you are now upset/annoyed. I don't expect you to answer it because if you say you are not going to be bothered in the least by it, then I'm gonna think you're just a liar.

and KKNY

I don't think it's always moms fault. If dad does it, there's nothing you can do about it. You can't control what the other parent does. But if you don't pick up the phone and tell him, that makes it your fault too. If you do call him and he ignores you (and my SD's mom ignores those kind of requests from DH) then it's the other parent's fault. What I said was:

"Yes, it is both your faults if you allow your children to be used as messengers. You should know what is happening with your kids and if the kids say "oh yeah, he isn't coming this week." and you didn't know about it, then a responsible parent calls up the other parent and says, "next time you are leaving town or not visiting on your time, please call me or let me know instead of telling the kids and not me."

He may be the one using the kids as a messenger but if you allow it, you are just as guilty."

If you don't speak up, you are allowing it. If you do speak up and he ignores you, that's on him. But TOS spoke like it's perfectly fine to have him go through the kids to schedule his time and you seem to agree, so it didn't sound like you are having a problem with him abiding by your wishes of contacting you, it seems like you think it's fine to send messages through your kids and TOS admits she doesn't get the messages sometimes and any normal person would get a little peeved to not know their plans fall through.

iamommy:
You have to consider the circumstances, geographical distance etc and age of the children to determine if they can be messengers. It is not practical to expect mom and dad always call each other when kids are in their 20s or even older. Due to current geographical distance it would be extremelly unpractical for both me and X to never rely on DD to pass a basic information. When children are grown they usually arrange their own plans with either parent wihout worrying about being a messenger. You have 3 grown kids, imagine that they would have their fathers in the picture. Would you find it practical to call all three fathers all the time and arrange everything or you would allow children to arrange their plans with dad and then just let you know? Between working demanding jobs and running households it is unrealistic to always call your X on everything. And if there are 3 Xs? How can you do that?

No I am not just as guilty. Ima, Dad is an adult and he knows my email and phone numbers. If he choses to ignore my requrests to have advance notice on pickups and delivery there is nothing I can do.

Once parents have a general plan in place, minor changes can be communicated by any party.

How do you communicate with the father of your children? You make such a big deal that you are also a biological mother, do you talk to the father every week? Is it your fault that you dont?

Fine, don't be ridiculous, I'm not talking about adult children. In my situation, yes my kids are grown. And they do talk to their father's now. My 17 year olds' father is living in another state and they started talking a few months ago. They call each other and I don't speak to him unless there is a reason. She's going to be 18 in a couple of months. If she were going to visit him, that would be arranged through me and him, not her and him. Phone calls are between them because they aren't scheduled and she has her own cell phone but if it were going to be a situation where we would be sitting here waiting for him to show up, that's a little different.

My son is 18 and his father just started calling him last week for the first time. His father does want to see him and they plan to meet and have lunch for the first time in their lives. He's legally an adult and if he wants to see his father, they can schedule it on their own. It's not going to be a situation where my son is sitting here waiting for him to show up. He has his own car, job and is in college.

and my 21 year old sees his dad when he wants. Again, he's an adult.

I'm not referring to adults, they make up their own mind. But a teenager living at home and that relies on the parents to transport them is different. It also matters if the parents transfer their feelings onto the kids by getting angry or frustrated with the other parent when they don't show up. I get angry with SD's mom when she doesn't show up but I vent here and don't let SD know that I'm upset about it. I am not thrilled that my son's father calls him for the first time last week and tells him that he only wants to move forward, not talk about the past. My son came to me not knowing how to feel about it and we talked. I told him that he has a right to feel whatever he feels, except guilt because he has done nothing wrong. And I'm not talking about a minor change. But TOS was talking about waiting for her ex to show up and he was not going to show up, that's not a minor change like say he's gonna be an hour late or he'll be here after his meeting.

and my situation when my younger kids were growing up did not include weekly visits as I didn't even know where their father's were. When I did locate them, I attempted to get them to see their children. They didn't. I didn't leave it up to my kids and now that they are grown, they can decide what kind of relationship they want. My oldest son did go on weekly visits and when his father didn't show up, it was me calling him to ask what the problem is, not letting my son call and ask him. It was also me that offered to drive my son when his dad canceled saying his car broke down. Of course he made some other excuse not to have his visit because his car probably didn't really break down. But I certainly did not let him arrange it with my son.. what happens when the other parent is lying to the child and the child figures it out? It makes the child feel bad because they know the other parent doesn't want to have the time with them. It's an adult issue and letting (minor) kids at any age make those decisions/arrangements is putting them in the middle. and in the situation TOS mentioned as her example, she found out half an hour after he was supposed to be there. I think the natural reaction is to be a little upset by that and in that situation, the kid is probably going to feel it's their fault. I wouldn't want to put my kids in that position. I know sometimes we have no control but if you don't try to stop it, then you are at fault. I'm not saying that if the other parent ignores you and goes to the kids that it's your fault, it's only your fault if you don't call him on it.

Ima, as you know, both TOS and I have called our Xs repeatedly, but in your constant desire to place blame on the mother, somehow this is the moms fault.

I think you should stop representing yourself as a SM and a BM, when you have not had much success in your role as a mom, and nurturing relationship with childs father. I am not saying that is your fault, just that you dont really have successful experience.

The kids were a little annoyed with themselves for forgetting. It really wasn't a big deal. No, I was not annoyed with my exH. He wasn't the one who forgot in this instance (though he forgets stuff too). Usually I am not even there when he picks the kids up or drops them off. Unless he is supposed to be picking up or dropping someone off at an activity, what difference does it make to me if he is half an hour late or comes or doesn't?

kkny

If those are the guidelines for representing a BM, that you have to have a successful experience with nurturing your child's relationship with their father, then where does that leave YOU. I don't where you've had any more success. What do you know about my success as a parent? What makes you more of an authority????

and you say you are not self righteous???

I never said I did, but i dont put blame on a mom when dad is unresponsive. You do assign blame in that situation. And as little as my DD sees her Dad, I would guess she sees him more than yours do -- which you have said.

No you blame SM when dad is unresponsive.

No I dont blames Dads GF. He knows how to send an email.

I can see why TOS's ex would tell his tween "I'm going to be late next week" and expect him to be able to remember it. Since half an hour late isn't a a huge deal if it doesn't happen often, and he did tell the kids (so it's not as if their feelings got hurt) I like that she's not "sweating the small stuff" in this situation.

I can also see why Ima would take up arms over it. Her SD is 8 and BM is constantly late (or even absent). In Ima's case, this isn't "small stuff" and I see why she would want other people to "sweat it" on the issue of using the kids as messengers about being late.

My personal opinion is that TOS's ex made the right call by telling the kids that he would be late. They are old enough to take care of a bit of their own scheduling and need to be learning to keep track of simple messages. If I were her, I probably would have wanted a quick email sent to me "Hey TOS, I told DS already, but I'm going to be about 30 minutes late next week. Let me know if it's a problem. Thanks, ExH"
And I think I would probably politely ask "DExH, could you please send me a quick email about that sort of thing? It's not a big deal, because I know you told DS, but sometimes he forgets things. Thanks!" just so I knew I took a step to prevent it from escalating... But that's just me. In TOS's situation, it might not matter much, but in Ima's situation it might matter a lot. I see both sides.

ceph

TOS's ex wasn't half an hour late. The child told her that he wasn't going to come that week at all (because he was going out of town), half an hour after he was supposed to be there. If it were that he was going to be half hour late or some other minor change, it might not be a big deal but I still think BM should know what's going on. The adults should be informing each other, not relying on kids to tell them things. When kids forget, they blame themselves if the parents are upset over it.

They SHOULD feel responsible if they forget to tell me something, whether it is a change in dinner plans or that the plumber called - not horribly, obsessively guilty-for-the-rest-of-their-lives, but blaming themselves when they are forgetful is entirely appropriate and the mature thing to do. They are not three years old - all but one of them are old enough to hold a regular job. It is not unreasonable for my exH to expect that they will let me know if he says he is going to be out of town. There are plenty of things for me to get upset with my exH for, but this is not one of them.

Ahh, I had the details mixed up - I thought he was late, not absent... but even still, with kids that age, I think TOS is OK with expecting them to relay a message like that. If I were her I would still prefer a quick email to say "I told the kids but..." (what if I had something important planned for the weekend?)
But I still think that if this isn't a regular occurrence, I don't think I'd really sweat it either.
So I like that TOS is laidback about this one in her situation. Even though I understand why Ima wouldn't be for her situation.

The whole point of this thread has been shifted when the OP is frustrated by the child reporting personal details about their home life to the other parent. It would be interesting to know how tos would feel to know her children divulge personal information of her life to her husband and his wife.

What, that I bought a new shirt, or cooked a chicken for dinner? Why would I care? He gets a copy of my W-2 every year (and vice versa) so that's no secret.

Wow. Guess I didn't know how big this can of worms would get.

I think Ceph has this one pegged. At the age of TOS's kids still having visitation, dad telling them about a change in plans is fine because they have a grasp on their schedule and could tell dad "sorry, I can't do Tuesday instead of Thursday because I have dance" or whatever. BUT - in addition to telling the kids dad should also email/call TOS just to let her know. Maybe she planned to meet a friend for coffee during visitation dinner and had to cancel because dad didn't show. Who knows? It's just common courtesy (if not written into the parenting agreement) on NCP's part to convey changes to CP. On the flip side, CP needs to make sure they are not having the child tell dad "mom needs you to get me 20 minutes earlier because she is meeting a friend for coffee."

If the child is younger that TOS's (like Ima's) the child doesn't need to be involved at all until the change has been made and they can then be told what to expect - "mom isn't coming today but she'll be here next week."

In our case, mom will call SD and tell her to TELL us she needs to pick her up for midweek visitation at our house at 6:00 rather than from school and then drop her off at our house at 7:00am the next morning rather than at school. Not ask, but tell. Not check with us to see if we have plans scheduled under the assumption mom would do as she is supposed to, but tell her daughter to tell us what we will be doing. After we said we would no longer give an answer unless she had the conversation with one of us she would email and TELL us she was dropping SD off at 7:00am or bringing her home at noon Sunday rather than 6:00 because she had plans . . . with no thought to any plans WE may have. This, IMO, is a case that the child should NOT play messenger.

Unless my exH is picking up up or dropping off the kids at an activity, whether he comes or not, or comes late, doesn't affect me very much. They are old enough to stay home alone, and most of them are old enough to cook something in the microwave or oven unsupervised.

Sometimes, and I would be willing to bet that its often, kids are the messengers because both parents are too uncomfortable to communicate with each other, and/or one or the other has too much anger to be able to have a cordial relationship with the other person. Email works great in those cases, but stubborn people sometimes refuse to do anything to make it easier on the other parent, by communicating in email, where everything is clear.

I dont even want to begin to get into how I know this :)

"Fine, don't be ridiculous, I'm not talking about adult children. In my situation, yes my kids are grown. And they do talk to their father's now".

iammommy: TOS's children are also pretty much grown, almost all of them, I think she said just one is still young, but even the young one is at the age when he/she can stay home by herself/himself. She keeps saying it and and yet you critisize her because her X didn't call her but made "children" to be messengers. And she didn't call him to complain so they both allowed "children" to be messengers. So how is it OK with your grown children but not OK with hers. Once again what is OK for you somehow needs to be critisized when others do the same.

kathline,
you are so right!
BF's X yells and screams every time BF tries to talk about anything. Sometimes emails work but she is verbally abusive in those too. Kids (grown) have to be messengers to avoid it. If they would be teenagers they would probably have to be messengers too.

It is too funny about children sharing personal details with the other parent. I guess people who have a lot of dark secrets or questionable past should be afraid of it. There is nothing in my life that needs to be hidden and kept as a secret. I can't think what DD would tell dad about me that I would want to hide?

The only reason I remarked about TOS's children is because she mentioned that the child told her of the change, half an hour after Ex was supposed to be there. Older teenagers and adult children are not the same as a preteen or young child. Maybe I read too much into her comment about it, but here's what I envisioned.

TOS looking at her watch asking where is he. Wondering why he is late when the kid remembers, "oh yeah, he isn't coming this week" and she gets irritated and makes a snide comment. The child feels bad because he should have told her before hand and now mom is upset because she didn't know.

That is a lot of assumptions on my part and I apologize to TOS if that wasn't the scenario. However, I still think in most cases, that scenario would be played out with lots of anger, frustration and cursing or name calling and the child would feel in the middle, blaming himself for not getting the message to the parent.

and finedreams,

I don't think it's about "dark" secrets... In my earlier post, I said how my SD started repeating to me, things her mom has said about her new BF's ex wife. She also tells us things like "mom's BF farted in bed Sunday morning" or "they were kissing for a long time" or "he puts his hand on her butt" or she talks about arguments they've had, or her BF's drinking,, or problems they are having with BF's ex wife or kids. The list can go on, but it's more than just a shirt or what they had for dinner. We all have a private side and there are things we don't necessarily want everyone, even our ex, to know. They aren't dark secrets or questionable past type things, just bits of our personal life we want to keep personal. (and some of the things she says about her mom's house, we can actually use against her mom in court if we can substantiate them, like her boyfriend's drinking)

Ok ... so when my SC call their mother complaining they didn't get dessert... I didn't make anything that night/day. She calls hubby to ask why am I keeping dessert from them.

Those are the types of things I cannot stand .... the woman who never cooks calling to ask why her children didn't get dessert .... I have picked up the phone and said if you feel that strongly well maybe you should bring them dessert ... dessert is a treat it is not mandatory.

Then the next phone call is to complain the children are getting fat because of all the desserts I make.

When your children are old enough to fend for themselves relaying a message is truly not a big deal ... but if your SC are at an age when they need to be "watched"... (and who decides that age)relaying a message is a big deal....

If the children are to be picked up from school and no one gives me the message that mom is not going to be there .... do the children fend for themselves or do I just assume she will not be there every week ... and be there just in case or do I assume she will be there and if she is not oh well she should have called me.

I have to listen to my SS12 whine about all his friends can "stay home alone" and "I" won't let him .... I have to tell him repeatedly its not up to me its up to your parents to decide whether you are old/mature enough for that responsibility.

I think at 10 and 12 the boys should be able to stay home alone for an hour or 2 but its not up to me to decide not my kids.... And I will not take on the responsibility of allowing it. SD is 9 sad thing is I would trust the 9 and 10 yr olds in the house "staying home alone" more than I would/could trust the 12 yr old ... maturity level.

The bus company will not let the elemtary age kids off the bus with out an adult to meet the bus ... so for us it is a big deal if mom tells the kids and not us that she won't be able to meet the bus.

Or when I am making dinner for 2 because they are going to mom's .... and now I have to make more dinner because mom told the kids not us ... that she wasn't coming that day.

Or I have made dinner for everyone ... and feeling like a short order cook ... making dinner for 7 and mom shows up early, the older one is eating at a friends and my son ate at his friends. So its dinner for 2 with food for 7.

After my last post, I remembered that SD also tells us "mommy sleeps naked" and my ex's new wife has a daughter that told all her friends in their neighborhood (my daughter was with them at the time because she was best friends with my ex's daughter) that her mom shaved 'down there'.

So, it has always been my philosophy to only share with kids what they might repeat to friends, teachers or the other parent.

Cawfe, we've been through the same thing with SD complaining about how we do things at our house and BM calling up to tell us how mean/unfair we are for not giving her dessert or changing from giving her soda with dinner to milk/juice. It didn't bother BM at all when her daughter had a weight problem, even though SD was crying that kids at school were teasing her.

I like this no dessert complain. hahah We never had any dessert. Neither one of us liked to eat any type of dessert after dinner. I never thought I had to give anybody any dessert. maybe once in a while. Fruits and vegetable and other staples are necessarry. Desserts? This woman is crazy.

Actually, I just said something like, "I wonder where Daddy is - isn't he usually here before this?" Then, a few minutes later, one of the kids remembered that she thought he had said something about going away some week. I thought it was kind of funny - could she be any more vague? I wasn't upset with anyone.