Yeah Patti - I got kicked off the school bus by a German Baptist Brethren.
I think she should not have told anyone else because everyone will know.

There definately is a double standard. I've worn men's jeans, shirts, jackets and shoes ... but the idea of my guy wearing women's underthings (or any women's clothing) is creepy to me.

A dear friend's son is a cross-dresser. He's young (early 20's) and has had the same girlfriend for over 2 years. I consider myself very open-minded and believe to each his own as long as no one gets hurt, emotionally or physically. I have to be honest and say that it wouldn't be something I would want to embrace. Relationships are difficult enough as it is.

I have to admit I am glad my DH isn't into this fetish. But I do see the younger generation much more accepting of differences and I think it's mostly a good thing.

Sexual identity today with the younger generation reminds me a little of the sixties when we were breaking through the color barrier. That was before the pendulum swung back the other way and everything became so PC. I miss those days of innocence and unconditional acceptance of one another. Hopefully the same thing doesn't happen with gender issues.

I don't see the problem ie being creeped out.

I don't see it totally as a double standard. I think as a woman who does work that requires jeans, tough shirts, clothing that might resemble so called mens clothing, I feel like I have to wear the tough stuff. . Plenty of women do what used to be called men's work going on for years and men are doing sewing, cooking, clothing sales, things we might think of as women's domain too, they wear clothing made to fit men. So while I do dress up in nice women's clothes to teach at school , on days like today when I work at the greenhouse, I wear my tough ol tennis shoes, jean, a t-shirt and shirt. I don't even think of them as "mens" clothes. I need them!
Now if my dh was wearing my bra and panties, that would be strange because HE DOESN'T NEED them. Panties don't really cover what he has and a bra would certainly be out of place! Yea, I couldn't understand the desire to cross dress, at least not on a daily basis. For giggles maybe but not all the time. Just me. I think it's weird.

I say to each his own. Cross-dressing is a pretty harmless fetish, really and I agree that cross-dressing does not mean gay. I'd have an honest, non-judgmental talk with him to find out exactly what it is all about, then decided if it would work out. He was probably in the bedroom for so long because he was taking off a dress, make-up, etc. She has to decided if it will freak her out to see him completely decked out as a woman, because that will happen one day if she keeps seeing him. I don't think it would bother me.

Back in the very early '60's a girl I worked with came to work and told us the same thing--she caught him, too. We did what you did--laughed hysterically. She broke up with him soon after. Guess she couldn't take the mental image.

Hey!! Some of my undies are kinda expensive & I sure don't want to loan them to someone whose going to make them all 'stretched out' in strange places... but hey what ever floats your boat... Maybe her bras are nicer than my old lady ones...

The part about him borrowing/trying her stuff on without her permission or knowledge would creep me out. Other than that, I say to each his own.

Really great points, and I'm glad you're all making them for her to read. I think it's okay for her to feel justified in however she feels about it, and there's a good mix here.

WildChild, I love that point because her daughter is rather conservative. I'm not speaking politically but in her style and way of thinking for the most part.

I hear you, Cate LOL.

I also think the sneaking her stuff is not a good thing.

But what about the way women's stuff feels? I read an article ages ago (I don't know, maybe it was a movie), where a guy said he likes the way they feel, he likes the softer textures and also likes lace. What I'm saying is it's not acceptable for men to like what women traditionally prefer. It's not manly, thus the stigma. For example, I was surprised to learn my womanizer/60-something cousin's favorite color is lavender - sort of a light/pale pinkish purple. He has one shirt that color but only wears it at home. He said he'd paint his bedroom lavender if it were acceptable. I've known a few guys who said they would never be caught dead in pink. I really admire a man who doesn't care.

Also, would it be okay or less creepy if he loves her and is really good to her. I think it would a shame if he is potentially the great love of her life, but she can't past him wearing teddies or tap pants that look like hers rather than his own boxers?

Duckie, you're saying he probably goes all out, huh? I guess she'll have to find out.

The fact that he likes to wear women's undies? No problema.

The fact that he STOLE items from her and even returned some here and there? Creepsville.

Sorry, but taking items from another person in secret even if they are returned (in secret) would be a red flag to me.

And knickers are one thing, but a bra? Whose bra was it? Could it be possible he might steal the items of strangers? See, there are more issues than just fashion here. It's not like he said "Hon, I have to tell you something. I like to look pretty". As far as we know, he still hasn't told her but she just guessed.

I don't know, fetishes may seem innocent enough, but odd ones are often linked to bigger emotional or psychological problems, and that would scare me.

Yeh, good point about him taking her stuff. Not a good thing.

I have no problem with people wearing the other gender's clothing if it's purely a comfort or fit issue. I personally have to buy men's jeans because I sadly have no hips or behind, and men's jeans fit me better. But I don't get turned on from knowing I'm wearing men's jeans.

Guys should be able to find men's silky boxers and small silky briefs, if it's just a fabric preference for what they want against their skin. (I know they always market those sexy men's undies around Valentine's Day). So they don't really need to wear women's panties to get the texture they want. Therefore I feel the reason is primarily a sexual turn on from the knowledge that they're wearing women's panties, which is a bit weird to me.

However a man wearing a bra would be a deal breaker to me, because there are no men's bras, so it's not as though he just likes the fabric of women's bras over men's bras. I believe he's definitely being sexually stimualated by wearing the most symbolically feminine piece of attire there is, and that turns me off. I just couldn't wrap my head around that, and would have to gracefully exit the relationship, no matter how heterosexual he acts.

Maybe it matters to him that they are HER undies.

Oh geese. So many variables.
You're right, PickyShopper. That can be a deal breaker.

I don't think wearing a men's sweatshirt, boxer shorts, boots, etc. is not the same as wearing a bra. Women wear mens's clothes (or women's clothes imitating the style of men's clothes) because it is more comfortable. I've never heard of a woman wearing a jock strap (unless maybe she was a cross dresser), which is the closest comparison to a bra I can think of (both being functional garments).

I would end the relationship, if it were me.

I don't like the business of his stealing her stuff ... and returning it.

I think that there needs to be some discussion to find out just how strange (I won't use the term, "queer") he may be, and whether the young lady in question is willing to continue a relationship with him, given these habits.

I agree that he's probably straight.

I guess that I'm wondering what all the fuss is about. There is a much greater variety of habits and customs acceptable these days than a generation or two ago ... not always a detrimental thing.

ole joyful

Perhaps he was not aware of the Man Bra.....

It seems there are numerous reasons why a man would wear a woman's bra. Male Bra at Wikipedia

Here is a link that might be useful: The Man Bra

I would be more upset at the fact that he's been in my bedroom going through my clothing and pilfering thruough my things. Just when is he doing this, when she's not home, where is the girlfriend while he's plundering mom's drawers?

My bedroom is off limits to all but my DH and myself. No one else has any business in there unless I ask them to go in for some reason.

Pickyshopper, I couldn't have said it better.

Sign my name to that post too please.

It is pretty funny. Not just the incident itself but the reactions too. Cross-dressing never was the type of thing that floats my boat but I think there's a much ado about nothing situation. Let's face it, not going into politics, but a former mayor and presidential candidate enjoys the silkies too. Divorced several times.... Hmmm...

A few points:

BF & GF for three months and questioning whether he's gay, straight or bi? If after 3 months she doesn't KNOW if in fact he is gay, then SHE has a pretty big problem. Going together that long and not knowing? Strange.

If he's bi, then what's the difference? Or are the bi more likely to cheat, steal, fool around (sure, there's more possible candidates! LOL) not pay their taxes or lose their driver license than a straight or gay? Sounds like some irrational thinking to me. I had a GF who was bi. Didn't affect our relationship at all. (Course there's a lot of other things that did!)

If he's straight what's the difference? Could be. Don't know. Don't care. Seems like it's an issue only with the GF and BF. I think it's blowing it out of proportion to say "stealing" too. After less than three months my GFs would help themselves to a jacket of mine or a sweatshirt when they needed or wanted one, without asking and I didn't classify that as stealing.

Has he mistreated her? Seems like there must be some other problems there. Has he turned her down when she's hit on him causing the sexuality questions? Is there moral issues involved there? Lots of things possible. Somehow, I'm missing the point of all the concern I guess.

OK, the guy likes to wear womens' clothes. As suggested, perhaps it's that it's hers. I don't know. I'm inclined to belive this is something he's been "into" for a while and not a recent interest. And I understand how he wouldn't publicise this interest either. The GF could, and if it bothers her so, she should talk to him about it. Maybe he should get his own to wear or buy her replacements or something. I don't like other people wearing my clothes, that's one of my quirks. I didn't like my GFs to wear my clothes. I don't like to share a coffee cup at work, don't like to share a toothbrush and other little quirks that of various types we all have. His quirk is clothes.

I think it's highly unlikely that he's going to break into someone's house to steal their clothes. I also think it's highly unlikely that he's going to go after Mom & Grandma's clothes, so they can probably relax.

It's called a fetish. Some people have a neck fetish, some have a toe or foot fetish, some have clothing fetish, some have a whipped cream, strawberry or chocolate fetish and none of them happen to be my cup of tea but I don't run screaming in paranoia from someone when they have a simple fetish. I do have a concern that she wouldn't ask him about it at the time. That's pretty strange! Perhaps it wasn't a concern until she told her mother? Sounds like the girl has some issues with relationships if she can't even talk to her boyfriend about something so simple and essentially insignificant. What if there truly is an issue that needs to be discussed? Sounds like she might have had some strange upbringing and may well have trouble in future relationships.

Lastly, if someone says a woman wearing a man's clothes wears them only because they're tougher and that they're the same otherwise, is amusing to me. Farm folks could find tough clothing. I remember when women's jeans had a zipper on the side. There was a term for the flannel shirt-wearing, men's jeans and booth wearing women. And it weren't cowgirls! LOL Now that women have adopted mens clothes as their style it relieves the stigma for female cross-dressers.

Maybe the guy should just go get a kilt and then the GF and everyone will think he's a manly man doing manly things in manly clothes! Or does that creep people out too? :D

And no, I don't even have a kilt! :)

Actually, Cynic, I had a friend who was married for over 20 years, had 2 grown children--who didn't know her husband was gay (and had been 'practicing' that) for many years. Women don't always know. Mrs. McGreavey certainly didn't.

Now, I'm only answering that point in your post--I don't necessarily think that the young fellow being discussed is gay. He's probably not.

Yowza..... I just read Cynic's post, and I just have to comment on this....

BF & GF for three months and questioning whether he's gay, straight or bi? If after 3 months she doesn't KNOW if in fact he is gay, then SHE has a pretty big problem. Going together that long and not knowing? Strange.

Many many many gay people who are "in the closet" for whatever reason (religious beliefs, fear of what people will think, etc.) do a pretty good job of hiding it. My mom was married to my dad for 25 years before she knew, and it wasn't anything that was wrong with my mom. She didn't know, my sister and I didn't know, his 9 siblings didn't know, all the other members of the church board my dad served on didn't know, the teachers that my dad taught with didn't know, his friends didn't know.... He just hid it really well.

All that said, I have mixed feelings on cross-dressing. I mean, it's just clothes, and who cares what someone wears, right? BUT, all the men I've known of who wore women's clothing were gay, so it would definitely make me very uneasy.

Pickyshopper said it well. Something isn't right with this guy getting 'off' by wearing womens underware. He may be 'normal' in every other way. But his sexual fantasy would send red flags to me.

I worked at a very respectable lingerie shop that specialized in the hard to fit woman. The major part of the business was fitting women who had mastectomies with a breast prosthesis. We had several male customers who regularly came in for bras and breasts to put in them. The owner of the shop insisted that the sales people treat them with respect and help them with their choices..short of taking them into a fitting room. One guy always came in his big dump truck on his way from work dressed in his work clothes. He was built like Drew Carey and was a hard fit. We all liked him and always treated him like any other customer...short of taking him to a fitting room. I would have no trouble thinking of this man and others like him as a friend, but not as a bed partner. Their "hang ups" have to affect them phsycologically.

We also had a few cross dressers who regularly came in full dress. Most of them got our usual customer treatment too, but some were so far out that we made efforts to get them in and out as quickly as possible. One came in almost every Saturday dressed to the nines. Spike heels, fishnet stockings, mini skirt, see through blouse...and a full beard! He just walked around the shop feeling everything that was purple and then left without buying anything. These men must lead a very tortured life. They don't fit in anywhere. They can't help what they are. Not much different than being homosexual.

Doubt I'd ever have to worry about it...men like this probably have no desire to wear worn out granny panties. :-)

I go out to breakfast in the wee hours of the morning on week-ends sometimes. At one of the restaurants a group of cross-dressers comes in on a regular basis. There are a couple of gay bars in the area so I don't know if they're gay or straight but boy are some of them beautiful. They don't go for the slattern look but for a classy evening look.

I know several women who were married to gay men without knowing. Like someone said they were just not ready to come out of the closet or married a woman to try to "fix" themselves.

There is definitely a double standard for men and women. But then a woman can be bi without being programed that way. Some do it to please there men etc. It's a much larger step for a man to cross over into the homosexual realm. After all with the girls it stays pretty much confined to heavy petting. Society has always been used to seeing women hold hand, kiss and hug. Not so with men in the Western world at least.

bestlawn, I'm wondering if by coming out of the bedroom with a bra under his shirt (and then hugging her) if he wasn't really hoping she'd comment on it, so he could start a discussion. Maybe he feels guilty about 'borrowing' her undies, but just didn't know how to let her know, so he had to do something more obvious to initiate a conversation about his preferences. If that was his goal, it unfortunately backfired since his GF was so startled, she couldn't speak up.

It'll be interesting to see what comes forth if they have a talk. If he's been wearing her panties during the day, then it's not like he's just dressing up in private with her, as part of their sex play. It is a fetish that he wants to engage in with or without her presence, and she would have to decide how she feels about that.

But a bra would be pretty difficult to conceal from others, especially with that annoying visible braline where the closure is, around the back. So a man choosing to wear a bra is a much more overt action, because there is a good chance it will be noticed. The willingness to risk being caught wearing a bra is just one step away from desiring to do total crossdressing, in my opinion.

So I would advise her to have a really good discussion with her BF to see if he has any further desires she should know about, and to ascertain how she feels about what she already knows.

Cynic, I think you're awfully critical and judgemental to have lived in a bubble for so long LOL. Over the past 10 or 15 years, women have come out of the woodwork, announcing they didn't know their husbands were gay until he came out. And for the record, I wouldn't want my husband sleeping with me and men, so yes, it matters a heck of a lot if he is bi. And I honestly don't know why you thought this young lady is concerned about anything. Besides telling me she caught him, I did not say she nor her mother said anything else or voiced any concerns.

PickyShopper, I'm thinking, and this is just my imagination mind you, he was at home and comfortable doing whatever in his errr her undies until he heard her key in the door, and then he ran to the bedroom to get some clothes on. I don't have any indication that he wore a bra under his clothes in public for it to be noticed by anyone. So while I agree with your other post and this one to an extent, I don't want to go overboard to think he was willing to risk anything. He was just at home and not expecting his girlfriend to show up. But, I do hope she knows he is not at all to blow her off in this discussion. Either come clean and risk the relationship or glaze over it and blow the relationship.

Well, she certainly has a lot to think about from all the good points. I don't normally post other people's business because it's gossip, but I did tell her mother I was going to and she should read and maybe ask her daughter to read. She approved and while her daughter just might be mortified LOL, she sure will learn a lot. Nothing to be embarrassed about though.

Just a comment, Bestlawn. Just because someone is bisexual doesn't mean they're promiscuous. A bisexual man or woman can be in a monogomous relationship the same as a straight or gay person.

Make that monogamous. :)

Perhaps, Nicole, but it is hard to be PC in explaining what I think. I guess I'll just say I wouldn't have much hope in the future. If a person desires both sexes, the desire for the other doesn't go away because of a relationship with one. I think where you and I probably disagree is you would say a bi-sexual person can go either way, whereas I say a bi-sexual person wants both. I've no idea who is right, but I'll compare it to a cheating man. I no more want my boyfriend or husband sleeping with men than with other women.

This is nothing to laugh at. If he had been open all along about it, then it would have been her choice about whether she could accept it or not. Because he has hid it until he got caught, indicates he did not want her to know. I lived in ignorance for over 30 years and found out in a bit similar fashion. I tried for another year to accept it and couldn't.
If it doesn't bother her - fine. I think what really got to me was the deception.

Give this a lot of thought. Yes, I believe they cannot help themselves. I also believe that it doesn't necessarily mean that they are gay, although I think the tendencies could be strong. In my case the words I got were " I always wanted to be a girl"
ivamae

Any other thoughts

Iva, I'm sorry you felt betrayed. I refrained from comment because I'm a little confused. I can't tell if you learned your husband was a cross-dresser or if he was gay. I don't mean to sound insensitive, so please don't take it that way. I think if he was gay, then you were deceived. If he was a cross-dresser all those years, then I don't know how you were deceived.

It's probably that I don't find it so terrible that a man wears women's under garments, not at least so long as there isn't more to it. So, I'm afraid it may seem insensitive of me to think him keeping it from you was not deception. He didn't want you to know, but he didn't do anything to you. If you learned he was gay and seeing men all those years, then that is a direct assault and something he had no business concealing from you.

I don't doubt I explained that all wrong. So sorry if I did.

How old are the people involved? Have they been in realtionships before?

Am I just being old-fashioned, or is three months an awfully quick time to acquire someone's house key? In the past I had trusted friends/lovers that had no idea where I lived. I really valued my privacy. (But not for cross-dressing reasons!)

If it were me, I'd give him a hug, wish him well, and run as fast as I could. Knowing someone for three months is not such an emotional investment that you can't simply walk away from potential, almost-guaranteed heart-breaking problems.

I absolutely can't imagine dating someone who wears women's underwear. Just too, too weird in my opinion. Ew. I wouldn't wear men's tighty-whities. And from what I know (which is only moderate), men who wear women's clothing, especially undergarments, get a sexual kick out of it; that's very, very different from women who wear men's jeans, shirts, etc. The fact that the guy may have been stealing MY undergarment only slightly increases my "ew" factor.

I don't understand the allegation of a double-standard. Women don't wear men's outer clothing because they "get off" on it (as far as I know). But (again, as far as I know), that's why some men wear women's clothing. And as for undergarments? That's entirely, completely, a separate issue. The fact that they hide it, therefore getting some sort of thrill from it, should say something.

Hey - I have a very close friend who is trans-gendered. I support her entirely. I have gay friends; same thing. I'm "welcoming and affirming". But there's no way I could date a man who wears my bra. Ick, ick, ick.

Now if I were to put on some men's briefs, then cover them up with my own clothing, and get a kick out of it, then I'd consider that strange, too.

For me, just the fact that he gets a kick out of it is enough. That he took (and then maybe returned) mine is secondary.

But - as others have said, it's entirely up to the woman in this relationship whether it matters to her or not.

Suzieque

Bestlawn. That is all right. If you haven't lived it you can't understand it fully.

You're right, Iva. I'm thinking you must have been shocked to your shoes and very disappointed that he didn't tell you. I was sure I said that all wrong before. Hugs?

Hugs right back at you!!!!

Fascinating thread. I thought I would add a bit of insight from his perspective, as I'm a young guy who is in his position too.

. I'm certain he only borrowed her things because he didn't have the courage to get his own. He really wouldn't want to piss her off like that if he had a choice.

. Just beacause he didn't tell her doesn't mean he doesn't want her to know - it can be an increadible hard thing to talk about. (Would you want to divulge this information to some one you care about knowing a common response is "ick ick ick").

. There is as much chance of him being straight as the general population - this has been proven statistically. In fact he's probably into very feminine women, more than others guys.

. If she can accept it (unfortunately this is very unlikely) she will probably have herself the most loving, attentive & monogamous man any of you could wish to meet.

. There's a good chance there was more than just underwear involved if it took him time to come out of the room. I would say this anyway, but that clinches it.

. Yes he did want her to feel the bra and talk to him about it - he obviously needed her to start the conversation (all men can take bras off very quickly, so it's not that he didn't have the time!!)

. Those of you tempted to be self righteous, beware...SO many men have their thing, whatever ir may be and the chances are their partnet doesn't know about it. It's just the way we're programmed I'm afraid. I don't know a single male friend who doesn't have something that would upset his partner if she found out, be it strippers, other girls, porn, strange kinks etc...

So, Bestlawn, what was the outcome afterall?

Where's your member page Ellisia?

well,I have no words of wisdom...however,I can tell you this much...I have worn mens underwear many times...cuz they're warmer..I have worn mens pants too..when any and everything I had to go to the barn in was in the wash.

That does not make me queer,having a fetish or anything even remotely close to it.

This character is not doing what he is doing because he is strange....not in my opinion...it could all come down to something quite simple in his world...read Ellisia's post again...he made good sense to me.

Absolutely ont_gal, it is probably 'quite simple in his world' - well put!

I love that you say he isn't strange, but I would suggest that his reasoning is different from you wearing men's underwear. I can't honestly argue the common retort of "women wear men's clothing so why can't men wear women's". There are plenty of androgenous people around now that are pushing these boundaries into the mainstream if you want to expand your presentation options. But specifically wearing lingerie/dresses/makeup etc comes from a different motivation (certainly for me anyway).

We're all human though, and we all have our issues so I applaud your attitude.

....on reading back all the posts, I applaud the attitude of most of you!!

There are just some things in life that will remain a mystery to me.

'There are just some things in life that will remain a mystery to me.'

Funnily enough, me too!!

I don't take the time to worry about other peoples fetishes very often (unless its immoral) but I'm sure I would be thinking alot if I found my dd's wearing their brother's jock straps. Personally I would find that strange. And the purpose is???

This guy is getting something out of his fetish I don't understand. Doesn't mean I couldn't like the guy, it just means I think it's totally odd.

I can't speak for this gal just because of my feelings. She's the one who has to live with this.