Wow. Bad beadboard.
We just had beadboard put up in our sunroom in our FL house. My wonderful handyman charged me $100 to do it and this house is the MOST unlevel house in the entire history of the world and he managed to make my chair rail look perfectly level- WAY better than what your GC did here. No one is that OK.
When he miscut some door material for another project, he also paid for the material he had wasted (and he is barely charging me anything to begin with- I actually did not let him do this and put the money back into the check I wrote since I feel bad about how inexpensive his prices are!)

If your GC wants to make it right, he needs to fix this mess and he needs to pay for the wasted beadboard IMO.

However, IMO your email was a bit snarky without giving him a chance to fix it if the project was underway when you sent it. (No offense meant by that- but I would say to approach the situation nicely until he proves that he won't make it right- but be nice and give him a chance to do the right thing first before going on the offensive).

So sorry this happened, but I get you 100%! I seem to have similar hours to you & emailing at a late hour is not at all unusual for me--after all it's not like I'm picking up the phone and calling someone at that hour and disturbing their sleep. I guarantee you the GC never in a million years dreamed you would take a level to the railing & check for yourself after he told you it wasn't level. Sounds like he was trying to put you on the defensive knowing the entire time you had caught him & his guys out. But you have to understand, that's how so many of these guys work--especially the part about using up your beadboard panels.It's no skin off his nose if his guys use up all the panels you've already bought and then run through 5 more--they're not paying for it. If the materials were coming out of his (or his guys' pockets) you can bet it would have been done right the first time. GCs aren't used to having someone who has even a little bit of knowledge about the actual construction part of the project looking over their shoulder & questioning/second guessing their work. And typically when they do get called on the carpet, as you experienced, they try to put the one who is doing the questioning on the defensive so you'll get out of their hair. If anything else goes like this and you catch him in another lie, I would be there 1st thing the next morning for a little show & tell on the issue. I probably would've been waiting on him the next morning with 3 different levels--in case my main level & my backup level were "off" -- after the level railing lie he told you. You did read the GW thread on contractor lingo, right?

Here's hoping the rest of your reno goes smoothly!

library_girl, where does he get off saying it was inappropriate for you to email him late at night? You didn't call him on the phone. I send people email at 5:00 in the morning. It doesn't wake them up! I don't see his beef with that.

I also don't understand why you not only had to buy the beadboard yourself, but you had to pay 20% more? To your contractor? What kind of fee is that?

I would have been upset, too. I had a GC who turned out to be a big disappointment. I survived, but I'd never use him again.

Wow.
So you caught him in a level-lie, too. Or his man in a level-lie. If someone's going to "fudge" on something that simple, what else are they going to lie about?

I second this, tho: >>If your GC wants to make it right, he needs to fix this mess and he needs to pay for the wasted beadboard IMO. And he has no right to reprimand you. Period. You're paying the bills, you're not happy. Midnight, wine, constipation, or what, you're still not happy and it's up to him to figure it out. If there's a good working relationship, he needs to make it work, not offer veiled threats about it ending.

Sorry. I'm with you on this one, snarky or not. I've come home on a very few times when I've not made sure to be present, only to find xxx and pretty much lose it. I build up until morning, then have had to make myself calm.

I have to believe, for my own sanity, that no one consciously does bad work. I think people don't know, don't care, and the latter is coupled with "good enough for now" or "they'll never notice".

Stick to your guns, nicely, so you keep that [ahem] relationship. You know. The one where you pay him for what you want.

Christine

i think GCs have a problem remembering whose boss. you should remind him asap. and i'd scream too if i came home to that mess.

i hope things go smoother.

Thanks for the support, my dear GW friends. I just wanted to explain the 20%. The guy is really a GC - he manages the project (not a carpenter, but a business man), he has a floating Site Supervisor and has specific contractors who he always works with. So, when the plumber decided we needed to replace the drain pipes, the charge was the plumber's $1800 for labor and materials and 20% to the GC for 'management fees'. That 20% gets tacked on to everything...a new shower pan with offset drain $$400 + 20%. The tile guy who removed the bottom 2 rows of tiles so they could remove the old shower pan and then installed 2 new rows of tile - $800 + 20%.

I knew about the 20% going into the project, but didn't expect to have so many 'unexpected/unplanned' charges. I guess it's similar to what others charge for change orders, but it's not like I suddenly decided to add a shower remodel to the project - it was at the recommendation of his contractor...

that is some cheap looking bead board

"He said that it wasn't appropriate for me to send that email that late at night and to use that tone ("Seriously") and he was offended that I felt that he and his contractors wouldn't make everything right. He felt that we had a really good working relationship and that I had strained it be sending such an offensive email. "
huh? is he nuts? sounds like it...

well, he/they offended you - and I can see how! that's such tacky work! if they ran outa time to fix it, they could have left a note. BUT, how could they ever get that far with it and NOT know it wasn't acceptable? I take it they aren't blind... so must be they chanced you would just accept it. when people get defensive like that it tells me they know they were wrong and deflecting their wrong back to whoever they are talking to (you in this case).

that's pride in work? yuck. that'd really scare me. I'd be watching everything they do now.

I think you has every right to send that email and if my GC saw his guys complete work like that, he would have lost it on them. But I have say I am lucky- our GC not only has corrected every thing that has come up whether it was my fault or his in communication, but also made sure my costs were kept to a minimum at all times. Wasting your beadboard? Unacceptable! Shotty work? Not cool. Your email- perfectly fine-I didn't see any profanity ;)

Normally I would be all over a contractor, but IMO the email was discourteous. I don't blame you in the least for being upset with the workmanship, but had you emailed him and told him that the workmanship was not up to your standards and that you expected it to be made right at no extra cost to you and to please not have the person responsible, do any more work on your project, a lot of hard feelings on both sides would have been spared. Then, if his response was unsatisfactory, let him have it with both barrels. If the guy is trying to do things right and is willing to work with you, blindsiding him with a snarky email is not very productive. Especially when he is unable to respond face to face.

I agree with marcolo, that you are the client and things should be done to your satisfaction and that the GC should not question your authority. But I also believe that unless there is previous behavior by the GC that is uncalled for, being civil creates a better working atmosphere, even if there is disagreement.

And I would still tell him to fix it at his expense.

Just my 2 cents. It's worth what it cost ya.

Good luck with your project.

I have to admit I don't expect to hear from my employer at that time of night, particularly not to criticize my work. Do you often e-mail at that time to acknowledge their good work?

I think he made a judgement error in pursuing it with you but if he is in other respects doing a decent job I think there is an underlying zeal in criticizing him and his workers implied by not being able to wait until morning to address your concerns. I get that this isn't intentional (I very probably might have done what you did) but I think it's possible to understand where he is coming from even if you don't agree. Quality of the work is a separate issue and he doesn't sound unapproachable on that front.

A lot of advice you get here will be coloured by folks bad experiences but you need to respond from the reality of your experience with this GC who based on this little snippet sounds reasonable. Practically for you and your job you need to focus on maintaining an accountable but productive relationship with him and in my opinion some of the feedback your getting here won't help you do that.

Good luck the rest of the way.

YOU own 5 panels of beadboard. You provided the two panels as part of the job he spec'd. Every panel he ruins, he pays for at unit cost or deduct the unit cost from his bill.

I get everyones support here, and totally agree that you are the one paying for the job and expect work worthy of your house or anyones house. The install looks like something that would go into a 10 year olds club house.

But...the issue got off on the wrong foot because you sent an email when you were not in your best frame of mind. Your were tired, had alcohol, and just saw a very frustrating situation. Foremost, alcohol turns down the capacity to be at our best when addressing important issues like this one. It is important to communicate expectation using our best skills and I know from experience that alcohol is the worst at helping build effective communications...JMHO.

Uh oh. I'm not aloud to swear at my GC? This may require sedation.

As a general rule, any unpleasant emails sit in a draft folder overnight. Not because you may not be "in the right" but because upon reflection one might decide it will be more advantageous to handle it differently.

Vent away sister! Your email to him was snarky because his people did a crappy job. Ok, maybe the wine helped a little. :-) I'd give him an opportunity to fix it to your satisfaction at no cost to you though. Why should you have to fix it?

I completely understand being upset and sending the email. The time you sent the email is irrelevant; it's normal to assume the contractor will pick it up at 8 or 9AM when he starts his day, just like anybody else. (I work in a field where folks shoot emails around at any time day or night, but nobody is ever expected to reply outside of business hours.) I find it fairly odd that he thinks the time of day you wrote to him has any significance in terms of "respect".

You were blunt and I'm sure the drinks and late hour didn't help in the phrasing, but I've seen much worse, and being blunt is ultimately doing this guy a favor -- no point in pretending to like something you hate. That original beadboard cut is truly poor workmanship, no doubt about it.

Alas, it sounds like there is definitely some delicate ego-massaging you'll have to be doing for the foreseeable future with this guy. I feel for you, because we never know what kind of mental minefields we might be accidentally entering when conflict arises with an employee. Just remember: you didn't start a conflict, you just pointed out deficient work. He'll be defensive, it's natural. If his touchiness really gets to be a drag, cut the project short and hire someone else to finish it. Life is too short. ;-)

Just one more thing. This: $300 + 20% for the labor of putting up 2 large pieces and 2 small strips of beadboard seems quite excessive to me. My master carpenter charges $80/hour and could do that job in 25 minutes tops.

[Question for the forum in general: I may be totally clueless about a GC's cut, but I thought the 20% (or whatever agreed-upon fee) was added to subcontractor's labor, not every darned part that needs to be ordered? That makes it pretty tempting for a GC to be less than eagle-eyed about the misuse of materials, doesn't it? Seems fishy to me.]

I agree that work looks terrible. I don't know anything about putting up beadboard, but I'm guessing I could do a better job than that using some common sense and a tape measure.

That said, honestly, I think your email was rude. Not that it was sent at night (who cares?) but your email was essentially "You suck."

It may have worked better to say "The beadboard installed in the bathroom is unacceptable because XYZ. I'd like you to take a look at it tomorrow and then have it fixed. I expect that it will be fixed at no charge and that I will be reimbursed for the extra material that will have to be used to fix it. Please call me if there is an issue with this."

The trick is to make it about the work and the solution you want and deserve, rather than make it personal. The tone of your email put your GC on the defensive. Yes, the GC should be professional enough to react appropriately (i.e., not lecture you) no matter what you say, but in dealing with people, the way you address an issue often dictates the response you get. If I were to mess up at work, I'd expect feedback from my boss and the expectation that I do what needs to be done to correct the situation, but I'd never expect my boss to be sarcastic and condescending.

Whence comes the notion that one has a right not to receive an email at a certain hour?

Is your email hooked up to your doorbell? Does your phone ring? Your car alarm go off? Does your dog bark? Who on earth gets woken up by an email?

If you have ever bought anything online, your inbox is crammed every morning with promotional emails that came during the night. Does that mean you have not slept in ten years?

The GC's complaint about an email "at that hour" is just a search for something to complain about.

And what's with trying to make her feel guilty about the wine? It was irrelevant to the content of the email, which was fine. If you want to chalk it up to a moment of irritation, OK, but by that count the GC has as much or more apologizing to do, starting with the work and ending with the word "inappropriate."

I'm wondering, too, whether the OP is getting rooked here. Technically there is nothing at all wrong or unexpected with a GC taking a cut, or with additional work being needed when the walls are open. But I'd love to hear the conversation about that waste pipe. Not every old cast iron pipe has to come out. Was this a diagnosis and a fix, or just an upsell opportunity? Are they looking for ways to respect her budget--or to bill out fixing some of their own mistakes at time and materials?

LG

Sorry for your misfortune - yes, it is quite apparent that the beadboard install is lacking in any craftmanship to say the least.

That said, I have learned through both business and platonic type emails, that more often than not translation is lost, and when we hit the send button, we really only understand it from our own biased perspective. In earnest we believe that the recipient/s understands the message, tone which we are trying to convey.

There are plenty of instances where this is simply not the case and causes undue energy expenditure trying to convey original message. This has an array of explanations as to why the recipient misunderstood the intention - ranging from: Sensitive person, not a tech/email type, someone having a bad day, someone rushing, or conversely: the original email could have been flawed that created a message/tone/intention the originator did not intend.

That said, and having read through the posts - While I agree with many regarding your rights - sometimes rights convey "righteous" which doesn't sit well with anyone. Only you can determine how to proceed, what is in your best interests.

If you have maintained a good working relationship with your GC,up to this point, then consideration for this error should be in context of the global picture. Is this something that can be potentially remedied to your approval? If so, what remedy? Present that to the GC in person, see if he is willing and agreeable. If not, then you should move on, because this will undoubtedly just become a constant source of stress, and overall bad energy.

I am not condoning the workmanship or lack thereof, rather trying to help you with gaining objectivity overall.

Having had a number of projects big/small, my preference in dealing with most people would be either face to face or by phone. While we live in a fast paced information technology world, I know the translation is less likely lost by those methods. Perhaps that is where the GC is coming from - Maybe he felt initially defensive given your good working history.

Just my .02$

best of luck

I agree that your email was snarky and given your frame of mind, it should have sat in your draft folder overnight. Typically though, emails sent at night when you're home to look at the situation should be perfectly acceptable. It's not like you were expecting him to respond at 11PM.

I have a question about the 20% markup too (as I head into my own remodel). Is that normal? It seems like asking for subs to waste materials so he can make more $$.

20% every time?
I'd rethink your next contract, too. What ever happened to incentives to come in under budget? That's rather insane.

I also think the time you sent your email is so totally irrelevant it's almost stupid.

Let me cut to the chase: I second every. single. word. Marcolo has posted. Including making wine an issue. Get real. Sometimes the truth just comes out more easily.

And what's with women needing to be [simper] nice about everything? How many times have we said to someone that they needed to grow a pair? Or a spine or something?

I can't help but feel you're being screwed a bit more than you're aware. Particularly evidenced by their carelessness with the bead board. Too bad you don't have someone to monitor your GC! Recommended, distant relationship, or man from the moon, he's still your GC and I don't feel he has your best interests at heart. 20%!?! every time!?

My experiences with GCs are different: formerly married to one. But that's another rant.

The work is certainly bad! And of course must be fixed. I'd be upset too, but hope you come to satisfactory agreement.

That being said, I really dislike arguments or disagreements over email. I think face-to-face is so much better. I used to have a boss that always said "don't yell in email". It's so easy to let personal attacks and sarcasm slip into email, when we would never treat the other person that way in person. As to the late night email, when we built our home, any email we sent to our GC would ring on his cell phone. So he may have a legitimate complaint there.

As for his "cut", you both should have decided how this was done upfront. Did you sign a contract with him? I am certain that our GC got a cut of things we ordered through him. But not on things I bought outright.

I think both you and the GC need to take a breathe, put the harsh words behind you, shake on it, and get the job done right! If there's something you don't understand, or don't like, tell him to his face, or on the phone.

Thanks again to everyone for (1) the support and (2) the advice on how I could have handled the situation better. I've really been struggling with this because we're talking about a $200,000+ project and we're only about halfway through the project. We have biweekly meetings with the architects and I was at the point where I didn't want to even show up at the meeting because I was so upset. And I signed a contract and have already paid 75%of the bill, so it's not like I can really fire the guy.

I knew I had to fix this mess, so I picked up the phone and called him this morning. And I said (after making sure he had some time to talk) that I needed to talk to him about something but first I wanted to make sure that he realized that I really believed that he was going to do everything to make sure that I was happy with the project. Then I told him that I felt like he was representing the interests of his contractors instead of my interests and I thought that he was supposed to be working for me, not them.

He was incredibly kind and said that yes, he did represent me and yes he did find their work to be completely unacceptable but at the time of our conversation, he hadn't actually seen the work and only knew what the carpenter had told him. After our conversation he went directly to my house, saw the work, and said that he was also really upset with the carpenter who did it - that it was completely unacceptable and I wouldn't be paying for the labor and materials to fix it. He said that these carpenters have worked for him for several years and he's never seen anything like that, so he doesn't understand what happened, but mistakes do happen. He said it shouldn't have been left up, thus creating the impression that they were satisified with the work.

He also said that I'm free to vent all I want to him, but that I had just taken him by surprise because he checked his email before going to bed and felt frustrated because he couldn't figure out what was going on because it was too late to call anyone (including me), knew I was upset and figured it must be something huge because we've handled issues larger than this much more calmly in the past, so he had a sleepless night trying to figure out what had gone so wrong. Then to find out it was simply a mis-cut piece of beadboard frustrated him too. So he too apologized for his somewhat overreaction to my overreaction and I think we're back on good terms again. And he said that now that we've been through this and he understands that I may need to vent, but that I still have faith in his ability to make me happy in the end, it was ok to send him emails whenever I felt the need.

I didn't find GW until after I started this project, and to tell you the truth, I haven't been in the other forums because my kitchen is the most important part of the project, but I sure wish I had gotten some advice about contracts. If I had it to do over again, I think I would have insisted that any modifications not requested by me, shouldn't be included in the management fee.

Marcolo, I saw the pipes and they weren't in the best condition (house was built in 1939) and they were directly over where my new cabinets were going to be located.

However, I would have liked the opportunity to get a 2nd estimate on the work, but as you know, things like that eat up valuable time - it just seemed easier to let him handle it. Now, looking back on it, I see it cost me $400 in management fees for my GC to handle it. I wish now that I would have at least gotten a 2nd estimate.

Library_girl, the one thing about a 2nd estimate with a GC, is that puts you in the position of subbing contractors yourself. It doesn't create the best environment, although it is your prerogative.

My recommendation would be to actually ask the GC for another quote. Remember, at this point it behooves him to use anyone at any price, because he does get 20%. Best interests or not.

In the meanwhile, it does sound like you two have really worked this thing out. I just wrote in another thread that the person reading an email puts their mood and emotions of that moment on the writing they're reading. It may not be at all what was intended, but if they're cranky? the email is antagonistic. if they're happy & joking? it's funny, or invokes sympathy, whatever. So that's part of the trouble.

All in all, this sounds a heck of a lot more positive than it did in the middle of the night. When I read your post. After I got home from work. In the middle of the night. Tired. In the middle of the night. (Get me? [LOL])

Yay. Sounds like a civil, adult conversation with a good outcome. You resteered this into a positive direction. Well done.

And who's to say the GC didn't have some wine in his system when he decided to take huge offense? Yeah, the email could have been worded differently and said the same thing, but I don't think it was offensive at all. The OP meant business. I type many emails that either sit in my Draft box or that I end up deleting.

The time of sending the email is a ridiculous argument. Should someone in another time zone wait until I have risen, had my coffee and decide to receive visitors? It's laughable. The recipient decides when to read his/her email, not the sender.

People have their limits. All the extra beadboard you had to buy is yours.

I'm still trying to get my brain around the 20% extra for, what, every piece of material?

linelle - lol on the ...who's to say comment. Brightened my day :)

I was happy to read your last post and know you worked things out. We're also doing an expensive project that is going very well. It doesn't mean that the process isn't stressful.

I'm in sales. I've worked business to business and business to consumer. We're consumers. I think it's sometimes difficult for us to be "businesslike" in our dealings. Many salespeople prefer "b to b" sales because dealing with individuals is a pain in the butt. I fall into that category.

So my advice is to remember that this is a business contract and you're dealing with business people despite the fact they don't wear a suit. Be truthful, be firm, but remember to be businesslike in your dealings. As a woman, I find it to be a much more productive way to get things done.

I realize this has been resolved, but I also wanted to offer my opinion that the original email didn't strike me as especially snarky. It's actually quite straightforward:
* action statement: don't have current workers continue work in bathroom.
* why?: because I could do better work
* is this a joke?: no, no it's not.

Sounds like the situation is in good shape, though, regardless of the email.

Thanks for your opinion, twodogs - I really did mean seriously as in no, I wasn't joking or exaggerating, although I did realize that "...Seriously" is also used quite frequently by my DD to indication she think's I'm out in left field and knew it could also convey that message too...which, at the time, was ok with me :)

I really knew better than to hit send, just had a little too much backing from the earlier refreshments...

I just reread your original email to the GC.

One cannot argue with the truth.
There's a very great chance you could have done better yourself. If that's snarky, I'd hate to see you be mean.

Post us some pics when it's all said and done. I'd like to see a good job done. :)

Formica job: "they" never trimmed the inside corners of the front face edge. Guess their router wouldn't reach in the corner. Closer inspection? "they" had glued it on top of the existing formica, which...had been glued on top of the original 35yr old formica. (cutting board would no longer fit in the hole). 35yrs is a long time to ask any glue to remain uniformly stuck.
Hired "them" for several jobs, but, decided to send "them" packing.
Re-did it myself.

Go thru the house and get the walls ready to paint. Basically, fix the cracks in the sheetrock, and bad spots.
EVERY TIME I showed up to check progress, "they" were sitting on the front porch swing taking a break.
THREE weeks later, "they" were finished, and where "they" started...was already cracked again.
Re-did it myself.

"they" got the pattern wrong on 300sq ft of tile. Decided I'd have to live with that, and that I shoulda just done it myslef.
Also decided "they" needed to go work somewhere else instead of tiling the bathrooms.
Did those myself.

"They" levelled off of...I have NO IDEA what. When they hung the kitchen cabinet doors. You could walk into the kitchen, look at the cabinets, get dizzy, and almost fall down. It wasn't bad. It was B-A-D!!
More than half of FORTY cab doors hit each other when closed.
AGAIN...I paid them and said thanks...seeya.
I filled all the holes, repainted the facings, and re-hung the doors...Myself.

From that point on, it was a DIY remodel project.

Yes, at least in my experience, the GC gets his cut (25%, thank you very much) for everything in which he is involved. And, as disappointed as I am in my GC (and even noting the disproportionate number of angry clients in the industry), that makes sense to me.

When the GC does their job, they are making sure the sub work is well priced and well executed, and in a timely manner. They take responsibility for ordering the right things, receiving them, storing them, inspecting them, returning them if need be etc etc etc. So they should be paid for everything they touch. Done well, they earn the cut.

Marcolo said "Who on earth gets woken up by an email?"

Me. Dh's boss sends out emails late at night and very early in the morning, and they come through dh's blackberry and beep every time. If he happened to bring the blackberry into the bedroom, the emails wake us up. He tries to remember to leave the phone in another room though.

So your GC may have settled in for the night and heard the beep beep when your email came through his phone. Or not.

I'm glad you were able to talk it over with him and get it worked out, but I think he's overcharging you too with the 20% on everything. And having a 5 sheet minimum? I've never heard of that and I just ordered two sheets of plywood and one 8' piece of trim from a store.

Sounds like he is padding his pocket at your expense on a lot of that stuff. But I am not a GC, have never used a GC, and have no idea what is normal these days. My fil was a GC and he only got a percentage of the labor, not the materials. That was a long time ago too.

For circuspeanut - with every remodel I've done with my GC, it's cost plus 10%. I trust him AND I've been present for every one!

Good to know you're back on better footing. It's a good lesson for all to sleep on the problem before you address it. That's a practice I always recommend. It allows you to cool down and respond correctly to the actual scale of the issue rather than the perceived scale of the issue that is always larger than life and emotional when first encountered. In other words, if this was the final labor on the project rather than just a prelim screwup that the GC hasn't even viewed yet, the scale of the issue would be much higher. You always want to save the escalated response to an inadequate response from the GC after he has had a chance, not the first response being volcanic.

20% for the material surcharge is for the time spent selecting the correct material, any associated required components, ordering the material, arranging for it's transport, receiving the shipment, inspecting it that it is correct and undamaged, and storing it so that it remains undamaged. Time is money and none of those services are free. ;) You'll pay it one way or the other, even if it's not specified in the contract. You'll pay higher labor fees, or you'll get less warranty, or something. The slack gets picked up somehow if the contractor is an actual business man and is going to actually remain in business. It's better to be above board with all charges in writing so you understand what goes into a remodel. If you elect to select and purchase your own materials, then you are the one responsible for all of the above and the contractor is no longer the point of warranty with the product.

Liberty Girl, Bravo!

because he checked his email before going to bed...so he had a sleepless night trying to figure out what had gone so wrong

That's why I have a personal rule not to check my email after a certain hour. I used to be a project manager for a software project--with team members world-wide. Early on, I realized that if I kept checking email, I'd never get any sleep because I cared too much to not want to solve the problem immediately.

And sometimes the solution looked clearer in the morning.

If the GC sets up his email such that it beeps each time an email comes in, AND keeps it by him at 11pm, that is his own fault. The etiquette of email (and the nice thing about it) is that there is no such thing as an inappropriate time of day to email.

I don't think you did anything wrong. Sending emails, and even texts at any time of day or night is the norm now. If you had called him that late at night that might be different. And if he was that upset by the email he should have just taken an Ambien after reading it and gone to bed.

John, you do realize ths post was 6 years ago...................