You said your GC has been honest, fair, and extremely hard-working, so I'd be inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt for now. I don't know anything about immigration laws but if he did ask them about their status it could have been to cover his butt if there was any question later on.

I think you are justified to be mad. But at this stage in the game, I would tell the GC to please work with your employees so that everybody can get their work done, and then politely say goodbye when the project is finished. Remind him that when he delays your project he is costing you time and money, and that upsets you. You can point out that the painters are here legally. I would also apologize to the painters for the GCs behavior. You are not going to change the GCs attitude at this stage of his life.

My GC started to get a little frustrated by the end of the job as well.... he was polite, though, and mostly kept his frustrations to himself (just some talking out loud).

I'm sure the truth lies somewhere between those two versions. Perhaps the painters were offended he asked for their papers-- I can see him not wanting undocumented workers on his job. I'd talk to the GC, though, and make sure he keeps things professional with the subs.

It's rude and racist to ask someone for their papers. No one has an excuse to ask anyone for their immigration status unless they are processing a job application.

I don't carry my papers around, seeing as I don't live behind the iron curtain.

Morton probably has the best approach. It's none of the GC's business if those guys are there legally. I wonder if you as the employer are responsible for race-based harassment in the work place. =/

your general contractor is not the police and he has no right intimidating workers in your home. no offense but he sounds like a racist with a small peepee. guys like this harrass women also. it is a pattern. of abuse.
you have my sympathy on this one.

The two things can be true at the same time.

People we really like can also be racists.

But it is true that you really don't know what happened. And you probably ever will.

I don't get between contractors and their subs, but that's not even the situation here.

If I'm getting you right, the painters were working directly for you. So he had no business asking them anything, except maybe if they wanted coffee.

If I have the facts right, it's none of his business whether the workers are undocumented. If they're not HIS workers, they're exactly like the owner or guests in the home or you or I passing in the street: none of his dang business! The Constitution protects us from people walking up to us and demanding, "vere ah yoh paperz!"

Something happened in your house that affected the work. The painters YOU hired left. That makes you their boss, and you're paying the contractor, so you're his boss, so, everybody has to at least coexist in your house, their work environment.

They have a problem, they want to check credentials, they can bring it to your attention, not play sheriff. It's like kids: it's not Bobby's job to make sure Sally did her homework. It's yours.

If, say, he says he thought they were doing a bad job and he was looking out for you and asking for their boss's number or something and it got misinterpreted, same deal: Thanks, but not his job. He has your phone number.

Now there is a problem and you have to fix it. As a GC, he should understand how frustrating that is.

He's made you mad and upset. Don't prepare a speech, just ask "what happened".

He needs to tell you what happened, and how he's going to finish the work. And if you really hate his response, you need to be prepared to ask him a for a bill for the work he's done and figure out another way to finish the job.

thanks, everyone. I knew I would get sensible responses here. And I am REALLY glad the GC isn't here today so I can cool off.

I really like it when I can recommend someone unreservedly and I was excited because I thought I'd found someone like that. Maybe my expectations are too high. But this GC talks a LOT (my only problem with him up till now) and he yammers a lot about being a professional, etc. etc. To me this was really unprofessional behavior.

To be absolutely clear, the painters are indeed working for me, not him. Having undocumented workers around (and they're not) has nothing whatsoever to do with him and his business.

I am not looking forward to confronting him tomorrow but I am going to have to. It should not be my job to play kindergarten cop. It really pi**es me off.

But it's also true that I have not heard his side. Frankly, I don't really want to--because he will go on endlessly and try to draw me into a conversation about immigration and how hard it is to get qualified guys and how hard he works for his money. All true, but at this point I just want everyone to do their job and GO HOME!!! And leave me ALONE in mine!!!

thank you so much for letting me vent :)

Good luck!

Maybe it was just a big misunderstanding....

Then don't be drawn into it. Just like you said, it's like kids.

Stick to THE WORK. You want a one, two sentence summary.

You can say "I'm not going to discuss that. Just tell me why you went in there?" (If they don't speak much English and they weren't working in the same part of the house, he didn't need to be there and he wasn't going in to chat. He was going in to mess with them, presumably?)

I work for a living, I supervise people and am supervised. Basically, at this point, any sensible person just apologizes, shuts up and goes back to work just to end the humiliation for both of you. That's what you want. Not an hour exchanging policy papers.

It probably won't be nearly as bad as you fear.

And then it will be OVER.

(And you never know. I work in a job where I have heard EVERYTHING. Hear the guy out.)

Alone in our own homes. Wouldn't that be bliss?

I'm not sure where you are at but i am in the northeast and I know for a fact that many contractors have issues with other contractors that are hiring illegals and paying them a pittance and getting the work.

I am by no means condoning his behavior and what may or may not have occurred but sometimes if we can understand better when someone does something that gets us really upset, it helps.

I would also agree to leave it be. And no matter what his grievances are with other situations he had no right to talk to them since you hired them.

This economy is affecting people in many different ways. People are struggling, especially contractors, so who knows??

As far as recommending him, i'm not sure where you go with that. Without talking to him about the incident you can't really tell people he was great except for this one thing b/c you didn't get his side of the story. OTOH how do you 100% recommend him when you think he did what he did and it wasn't right?
I have no answer where to go with that. Sorry.

Hollylh,
You are truly a kind hearted person. I wish
there were more people like you to help the underdog.
But before I assume this GC is a bad guy I have
questions.

If you hired the painters why did they leave without
talking with you first?
Shouldn't their supervisor or the head painter
have told you they were leaving and when they
were returning? Even if there is a language barrier
there are ways to communicate.

Perhaps there is some confusion in the painter's minds
as to if they work for the GC or you.

And if the GC was taking liberties with your hired
painters he needs to be kindly but firmly reminded that
in the future he can go through you to talk to the painters.

As a boss you must be calm, practical and fair to all
involved. And you already sound like a fair minded and
kind person. You are looking out for the underdog.
That is noble.

I would simply ask the GC in a kind way, why they left the
other day. That you are concerned you lost a day of work.
See how the GC responds. Is he angry? combative?
derfensive? argumentative? or is he polite to you?
professional? calm?

It may be a total misunderstanding or it could be a total
fiasco. Wait and see.

As for recommending him? If he has done a good job
with a few minor mistakes that is what you can recommend.
Especially if he corrects or accepts he made an error.

I will be curious to see what happens. Good luck and
be strong you can do this.

~Boxerpups

Hi all--thanks so much, again, for all these helpful and wise responses. I just talked to my DH (who has been away on business) and feel a bit better. He said many of the same things you all did.

I know there are always two sides to every story, and I feel obligated to hear his. But I am going to ask for, and listen to, the 60-second version, not the "policy paper" version, as Growlery so perfectly put it! Beyond that I am going to keep my eyes on the prize--i.e., I want everyone to finish their work to my satisfaction and then LEAVE!

Boxerpups, I agree that the painters should not have just left without talking to me--or at least their supervisor should have called me, and I should not have had to call him. I made clear that they need to talk to me in the future and I said as nicely as I could that if there were someone around with whom I could communicate well it would make things easier for everyone. That is tricky to me--I don't want to sound like I don't respect someone if their English isn't good--but it's just a fact that we need to be able to communicate in a fairly detailed way.

As far as recommending him (unless I hear surprising new info tomorrow) I will say that he is fair, hardworking, etc. etc., but that he does not do well with subs he hasn't hired. (There have been some respect problems with one other person as well.)

These guys are going to keep encountering each other for a few more days--and maybe more, as we need to have the exterior of our house painted, and need some carpentry work done there too. (Sigh. Oh, yeah--I haven't spent ALL our money yet--better get crackin'.) I hate the idea of all this tension between people in my home. But they will just all have to be grownups.

I will keep you all posted.

Thank you again, so much.

People we really like can also be racists.

I agree completely with this statement.

Good luck with sorting all of this out.

I don't know anything about immigration laws but if he did ask them about their status it could have been to cover his butt if there was any question later on

Even if that were a possibility, they're not his suubs, and therefore not his responsibility, and therefore, NOT HIS BUSINESS. I agree with whoever it was above who called the guy a racist. he had no right whatsoever to ask for their green card.

Sometimes you need to keep your eye on the end result. I think all of us would like you to call this guy out on his seemingly racist behavior, but I'm not sure it will get you the result you want, which is a peaceful conclusion to your project. Could you approach this with the GC as if there might have been a misunderstanding about scheduling and ask him to work with you to put together a schedule which will allow the painters to complete their work? Or work with the painters to put a loose schedule on paper and run it by the GC----could be as simple as Mon-painters in Kitchen/Family Room.....Once you get both parties to agree, then ask them to come to you if there is a conflict.

It may not give you the satisfaction of confronting the GC directly about his behavior, but it might diffuse the situation rather than escalating it.

Sometimes you just gotta do what you just gotta do.....Good Luck!

I once worked on an immigration project (both legal and illegal) and the stories I heard were horrible.

These workers had their papers. Heck, they may have been doctors and university professor at home, for all we know. But they may have heard these stories too. They may have left because they did not feel safe in your house.
(I'm sure they would not put it like that, but an allegedly angry guy and his crew versus the few of them, out in a house ... I'd skedaddle too.)

They may then have been afraid they would be fired if they said they got into a fight at a client's house, even if they didn't start it ... a lot can be going on on their end too that we don't know about, or that might not make sense to us, in our secure environment, but that plays differently in their situation.

So yes, the supervisor should have called you. But maybe he was afraid you'd agree with the contractor, and demand to see everyone's papers too, and ... I don't know. Don't we pay taxes for ICE to do that? Doesn't anyone want to talk about their refrigerator any more?

But I still have a hard time getting over that the contractor MAY have picked a fight with another sub in your house. That's a bigger problem.

i think it's about "territory." my gc acts the same way with subs whom i've hired. while this has happened only twice, i have definitely sensed that feeling of rivalry and suspicion coming from him when they are around. he'll make snide comments and disparage some part of their work. since katrina, i've had two architects, two gc's, three roofers, and their different subs coming through my home--and from nearly all of them, i will hear criticism of how the work was not done properly by the person before them. and how *they* would have done it differently, and better...

and why do gc's talk so darn much anyway??? i will even stop eye contact and stop responding. but he keeps on talking.... what is up with that???

This is the second time this week, I have felt called out of my lurkerdom. The first time was to express my joy and excitement over seeing Elizpiz's finished kitchen. This time, I'm afraid to say, Hollylh, it's for the purpose of acknowledging your pain and frustration and to say how sorry I am you are having to deal with all this.

I don't believe that any of us can ever know the full scope of the challenges we are about to face whenever we engage in a major reno project. Especially those that we are not doing ourselves. The complexities of the job start to multiply with the discovery of unknown structural issues behind our walls, and/or under our floors and ceilings. The companies we are buying our cabinets or appliances or other products from suddenly go belly up. Our spouses and other family members begin challenging our long held vision of what makes for a dream kitchen. And, of course, there's the GC, or KD, or ID, or sub who wooed us and wowed us before contract signing but who amazingly turns into some kind of freak character we don't even recognize, much less want on the team once the job is seriously underway!

I don't have any answers for you that are much different than the sober advice you've already received. That is, I'm in agreement with those who advised you to take this up with your GC ASAP and to do so with the intent of establishing your bottom line as to way you want the workers in your home to conduct themselves. While I don't envy your having this conversation, it is likely the only way you will get peace of mind and command the kind of respect you desire on the worksite -- not only for the Honduran workers but for yourself.

Oddly enough, and, if it is of any help to you at all, Holly, I'm deeply encouraged and impressed by your concern over your GC's behavior. I take it as yet another indication that, even as we find those amongst us who are struggling ferociously to go backward, there are more and more Americans who sincerely desire to move our democracy forward. Thank you!

Good luck!

I'm a management employment attorney with some immigration law experience. To clear up any confusion, I cannot think of any circumstances under which your GC would have any liability or responsibility for painters who are employed and compensated by you, and not him.

I think it's worth asking for his side of the story. You may never get to the truth, but you will probably have a pretty good gut instinct about what happened.

If you think this guy is worth recommending on the basis of the quality of his work and his work ethic, you might try leveling with him. Tell him how much you value his work and how you've already started recommending him to friends, but that there's an issue that you think he ought to deal with for the sake of the success of his own business.

Explain that recommendations are based on both the quality of the product and the quality of the process. Explain that his products have been excellent, but that there have been a couple of glitches in the process. Explain that, while he has generally been extremely professional in his conduct, you've noticed that he seems to have problems with subs he didn't hire himself. Explain that while you can understand, respect, and appreciate that he wants to maintain control over the job to be sure everything is done right, when you have hired someone yourself, his problems with them come across as him judging you as incapable of getting good workers yourself. Explain that you are counting on him to help you get this job completed on time and on budget, and him getting along with--or at least staying away from--your subs is a critical component of that.

If he's mature and professional enough, he'll appreciate your comments and improve his future behavior.

one more post before bedtime--again, thank you, everyone--I will sleep better tonight having vented here and gotten such good advice.

I just had to say that, Nolamom, I think territory is a big part of it too--initially that's all I thought it was, before I heard what I heard today. I have heard from the GC all about how the people who built this addition (before we moved here) were lazy and cut corners, etc. etc. What's up with that? Are they the only decent workers around?

I also thought that maybe the GC is mad I didn't hire his guys to do the painting. Trouble is, they're not painters. (How do I know? I learned this when they painted my powder room.)

I also wanted to mention that what I keep thinking about is an incident that happened recently w/ our second-grader DS. Twice in one week he got into a fist fight with another child; both times the other boy threw the first punch. I was so upset about this, from so many angles, that I didn't know what to say at first, but I finally settled on "walk away." I keep reminding him: whaddaya do? Walk away. Again? Walk away. And of course we talk about all the reasons why. I know this is not what some parents teach. But besides the issue of not using violence to solve problems (which doesn't work, especially if you're 8), I'm just being pragmatic--you are far likelier to get into more trouble if you hit back. In second grade, you BOTH get sent to the principal's office. And in my house, if there had been a fight, they ALL would have been out of a job.

I keep thinking that that's what the painters did--walk away--which as several of you have pointed out was the smartest thing they could have done. Even if they should have told me, etc. etc.

Will let you know what happens.

night-night

As a woman who has hired various trades people for the last 20+ years, I've found that the guys I've used a lot tend to be overly protective when other contractors are around. Life can be a p*ssing contest if more than one is in the house at the same time! I think the 'regulars' believe they're looking out for my best interest & that the others are trying to take advantage thru substandard work or laziness. It's funny because I'm far from a shrinking violet & all the guys who have worked for me wouldn't hesitate for a second to admit it.

I'd have the painters in when the GC or his crew aren't there & let the matter drop; the male ego is something most women will never competely understand!

Admittedly, I wouldn't look forward to having a conversation with my GC about something like this, but it pains me to read upthread the suggestion that you look the other way for the sake of getting the kitchen done uneventfully. Granted, we don't know precisely what the GC's motives were for the inquisition he gave these workers, but if he was out of line (which is certainly my take, based on the info given), he needs to know that this behavior is unacceptable, no matter how wonderful his contracting skills might be.

If we want to live in a society free of racism (and I have great hope that this will one day be possible!), we sometimes have to do and say things that can be difficult. We have to be willing to call it like it is and jump to the defense of those who are wronged, even if it requires personal sacrifice. If we aren't willing to do this, how will things ever change?

I know very few people who would consider themselves racists, but I believe we have to do more than simply "not be racist." We need to be actively opposed to racism, and show it in our actions - even if it smarts a little.

Now. Who wants to weigh in on yet another pressing issue? Toekicks - love 'em or leave 'em? ;o)

The GC had no right to do what he did - assuming that is what he did. Since you are happy w/his work overall - he should be offered the benefit of telling his side of the story - the "truth" will be somewhere in btwn the 2 stories -If nothing else, perhaps it will put the GC on "notice" - meaning you will not have to say much to get the msg across - here's the punch list when do you expect this to be completed?

-Hopefully you owe both GC & painters $ - because it talks!

- The painters left more than likely out of fear, plain & simple. If any of us were in a similiar situation that is the likely path we would have chosen.
- Absolutely agree with the "walk away" - many little ones here- big too - We reinforce that people who chose violence have little intelligence, that is why that is their 1st reaction. We state "you are much smarter than that, use your God given intellect" - Yes, their are circumstances where that does not always work. Most times it does.
- I would say, it is likely your GC is frustrated with feeling the effects of this poor economy and has to hustle twice as much to get a job. He feels threatened by customers not using his subs and further threatened by his perception of "illegals" taking work away. All goes back to lack of intellect -
- I can't tell you the # of times I have heard this from GC's even during booming economic times!

- You can't correct his limitations, but keep him on task and hold the $ until it is completed to your satisfaction
same holds true for the painters.

-If the GC wants to yammer about the incident I would simply respond - that you have heard both sides, and really do not want to choose sides or get further into it. Rather, to have the focus on the job being completed. If need be, separate them, yes, just like you do when the little ones are fighting in the sandbox over the Tonka toy.

Good luck!

One of my favorite quotes:Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.
Isaac Asimov from "Foundation"

I agree with antiquesilver in that contractors are often competing with each other which adds to the hassles of remodeling (and your stress!). Our GC decided upon first sight that he just didn't like one of the subs we hired for part of our project due to making an incorrect assumption about him (we hired this person, rather than using someone our GC recommended due to problems with practically all of his subs!). We ended up being very glad even though the GC didn't initially like the person - at least the work was done well and was practically the only thing done for months now - thanks to our GC's lack of organizational skills.

You know, the phrase "the truth will be somewhere in between" isn't always true. Sometimes, some folks are telling the truth and some just aren't. It does a smug, facile disservice to people who have been wronged to say automatically that they must be lying to some extent. Try being attacked and hearing that the truth is somewhere in between your story and the attacker's 'story'.

And citing "Rashomon" doesn't count. Art isn't life. Some people will flat out lie to get out of culpability, as we've all seen recently.

Just wanted to give an update.

The GC hasn't showed today. Usually he is here at 7. He called at 9:15 and said he'd be here in an hour. It's now 12:45.

The stuff that's left is all the "little" stuff that I'm sure he thinks can wait. Like unsticking my new kitchen drawers and putting on the hardware so I can actually open them.

La la la la la la. In my happy place.

I can hear the bluebirds from here ...

"The GC hasn't showed today. Usually he is here at 7. He called at 9:15 and said he'd be here in an hour. It's now 12:45."

Haha - Hollylh, are you sure we aren't using the same contractor??! :) I seem to have heard "I'll be there..." way too many times lately, only to have our GC not show. Unfortunately, we have more than little stuff to be completed or I'd just tell him to go take a hike!

Maybe we should all join you in singing La la la la la la la la :)

La la la...

So here's what happened. I don't know if I am confused or unsurprised or baffled or just tired.

GC shows up. Our conversation is fine at first (painters happened to be at lunch). BTW the first thing he said when he came in the door was "where are the painters?" Anyhoo. He started running down something they had done and I just clutched my head and told him to stop and then said I needed to know what had happened on Tuesday.

Bottom line is I got a total, complete, flat denial. No, he said, there had been no confrontation. Nothing. They were using some of his tools and he told them to stop. Otherwise no interaction. He had no clue what I was referring to.

He wanted to know what they had said and I wouldn't tell him. I told him I was completely confused but if he said nothing happened I believed him. (A lie but I just wanted him to quit talking, and quit asking what they had said, because I just did not want to go there.)

Either the truth is somewhere in between, or someone is lying thru his teeth, or, most likely, both.

I hope you all don't think I'm a wimp but I told him we just had to move on and I wanted everyone to do their jobs. I left, and a little while later I called him about something, and he said he had spoken to the painters and they had shaken hands and everything was fine. He said that he had seen a lot worse--fistfights on jobs, etc. He said, you know, we're all men. I said yes, I was aware of that.

There are a lot more details that I could piece together but frankly I don't want to. I suspect that all the things you all mentioned are factors--he wants his own subs, he wants the work, his men "cost him a lot" and he "pays them fairly" (totally unsolicited detail, by which I think he's insinuating his guys are legal, etc.), he is territorial, the non-English speakers misinterpreted stuff. Somewhere in there is the truth but I no longer give a rat's patootie.

Painters are peacefully painting and I don't see any black eyes or broken noses.

There is no hardware on my drawers and GC is gone till Monday.

On the plus side electrician is here and we will finally have light and functioning outlets.

La la la la la.

All in all it's probably a good result. Might leave you feeling a little queasy but that's what lalalala(drink)lalala is for.

And if he did do ANYthing, he knows you know he knows you know and hopefully will behave better in the future.

I don't think you're a wimp.

And, for the record, I think all anybody wants is to just go about their work without ANYTHING being an issue.

Go plug stuff in! Like the blender! Go have a margarita, or a smoothie or something! You've earned it

I think you handled the entire situation very well, hollylh. May you have a very pleasant weekend.

Right after I talked with the GC I took DD out to lunch (she is on school vacation)--and I really, really, really wanted to order a drink! I resisted--but now I see it is 5 PM...

do you hear the whirring sound?? :)

thank you guys! you're the best!

Good for you!

You done good. Hurrah for avoiding lots of stress. I'm so sorry that testosterone -- or whatever it's used as an excuse for -- got in the way of just getting the job done.

And in honor of your painters:

Honduran Ponche De Pina -- Hot Pineapple Punch!

Ingredients

* 3 pineapple
* 3 cups water
* 3 cinnamon sticks
* 2 teaspoons whole cloves
* 2 teaspoons whole allspice
* 3/4 cup sugar
* 1 cup coconut milk
* 1 quart light rum

Directions:

1. Peel pineapples; chop or shred.
2. Add water and let stand overnight.
3. Put in large saucepan with spices, sugar, and coconut milk.
4. Boil for 5 minutes.
5. Strain liquid into large pitcher.
6. Add rum and serve hot.

I don't know about that "violence is for idiots thought". I sure used to believe it, but after firing so many contractors I can't count them on all of my fingers and my son's...and then being ripped off for literally thousands and thousands of dollard...I'm beginning to think a well placed brick upside the head might be a better solution....

Holly you handled it perfectly and I will tell you from three years of experience in remodel hell...drinking at lunch time is perfectly acceptable..on occasion (pretty much any occasion you have to deal with a contractor) ;OP

Nice job with the GC and the painters! Aren't you thrilled its behind you? And you can plug stuff in!!!! Have a nice weekend.

I recently had a similar situation. I have been doing a lot of work on my house to get it ready to sell. I have been working with a carpenter (I adore) for almost a year. He has acted as a GC for some things I needed done. He would bring in someone he worked with but I would pay them separately. He recommended a painter who came and gave me an estimate to paint my entire house inside. I agreed and he brought in two workers. They worked for approx 2 weeks. My carpenter came back and didn't like the work they did. He called the head painter on the phone and began screaming at him telling him to get over to my house.

Long story short, the painters never came back. I couldn't reach them, never heard from them and lost approx $3,000.00 in the process. My carpenter explained that some of the work was poorly done, no primer was used when it should have been, nails weren't hammered in, picture hooks and outlet covers weren't removed.

I was upset that I lost money and painters. He (the carpenter) said he'd finish the painting at no cost to me except the paint. He was right, the work was poor. I noticed some things but not all. I work during the day and was not present to supervise.

I still am not sure if I am happy he spoke or if he should have left them alone. Either way, I lost money.

maybe, in fact, it's just one GC making his way around the country? :)

great recipe. after katrina, i'm finding more brazilians moving to new orleans for work in the construction trade (the brazilian"community" before K was non-existent). would looove to learn how to make a good capirinhia.