Piper - you're lucky that's all the damage your guests inflict. I'm dreading Christmas dinner because my guests are incredibly rude, illiterate and thoughtless. They will bring their own bottles and drink from them right at the table, they insist on doing things their own way including mishandling cutlery and china, sometimes they try to steal my ornaments off the tree.

The worst ones urinate (or worse!) right in my living room thinking no one notices and a few of them will look right at me while picking their nose. (And they don't carry kleenex either, if you get my drift.) They scream, argue, destroy my decorations, and leave a trail of sticky destruction and distinctive horrific odors in their wake.

I would tell them not to come this year but they're my grandchildren :(

LOL!!!!

Rosieo- very good stuff!!

Thanks Rosie...just what this thread needed!!! ROTFLOL

Piper, I hope your holiday is wonderful. It took me many, many years to learn how to roll with punches and "unstress" my holiday dinner.

Setting a gorgeous table is important to you, and that's OK. Worrying about your lovely china is important to you , and that's OK. So take the advice of many and serve something knife friendly that will allow you to set a lovely table and protect your lovely china.

You mention a few other things that give me pause. It is NOT expected that you should eat last. No one in my family would dare start eating until the hostess was seated...my Mom taught us that one! Big slap upside the head if you did!

We are usually 14-20 so what I do is set all the food out buffet style, but set the table as for sit down. We all gather around the table , stand behind our chairs and say Grace. Then we take our plate and go serve ourselves. I use the centre island in the kitchen but I always drape it with a table cloth and set out candles and flowers. It's true I wait until last to take my food but I am seconds behind everyone else.

If we are less than 10 I serve the meal family style at the table. We pass things back and forth forever but at least we are all seated together!

The one thing I have learned to do for family dinners ( not real company) is to let the men do clean up. Fair is fair....the ladies go into the living room with an after dinner drink , tea or coffee, and the men clean up. My DH is great at getting them all to do this. Result is after the dinner is done, so am I !!! Yeah they don't do it perfect but at this stage of my life, less than perfect is a good thing....while I'm sipping on my Grand Marnier.

Some people do just cut hard, no matter how tender the meat is. If DH has to use a knife, he saws back and forth a thousand times with barely any pressure and at high speed. So he leaves gray marks on the dishes that drive me insane, but it does not crack the glaze. My brother in law cuts meat like he is sawing wood, and will actually damage the glaze on the plate! I have seen people leave marks on the plates with their forks as well, and I realized that some cutlery is more likely to mark than others.

Our OLD good cutlery was bad, our NEW good cutlery - which is silver tone on the handles but gold tone on the blades and tines - hasn't left a mark yet. Maybe after some wear though they might.

My mother has collected Old Country Roses dishes for years. It started back when a place setting cost more than a winter coat for four kids LOL. It took almost my lifetime before she got enough sets to have enough to use them for good dishes. Then at every holiday, it was a litany of watching those darn plates. Don't carry them, stack them, wash them, every meal was a constant worry that something might happen.

Then one day my mother was carefully putting some dessert plates away when one slipped and BROKE THE ENTIRE STACK. She was devastated. She lamented to an older relative who told her a story of her own daughter that saved her good dishes for "something special" - then died of cancer. Her own daughter (this woman's grand daughter) was doing the same thing - saving them for something special and SHE died. And had no children to pass them to. They were sold in an estate sale to somebody who broke them to make mosaic bowling balls ROFLMAO!

Since then, not only do we use the dishes (even the children) but she puts them IN THE DISHWASHER. Not a fleck of gold has faded and as far as I know none have been broken since.

As for the gray marks? Maybe a google search might find a way to remove them?

Dances.

you might try using a Mr Clean Magic Eraser (that thing really IS magic) or try a bit of baking soda on a wet sponge.

(I keep a container of baking soda over the stove and sprinkle some on the glasstop after dinner and lightly scrub with a wet sponge. It works as well as the expensive ceramic glasstop cleaner. Does a pretty good job of cleaning the sink too.)

Rosieo....oh too funny.

I've read all of this in the spirit of so many posts over the years of....How can I tell someone...?? or What is it about some people...??? And no, there is no nice or polite way to get some of this across to some people.

I am married to a sweetheart, and I cook darn good, meaning no hunks of leather on the table. AND I cut meat that is to be served cut (into cubes i.e.) into much, much smaller pieces than necessary.

HOWEVER, this otherwise darlin' still has to cut his meal into even smaller pieces (shades of his mother's words to him 60+ years ago....) and invariably his knife screeches across the plate...whatever set of china we are using. Soes it mark the china? I don't know because he washes up but it sure does mark my ears. Why isn't he able to cut without pushing down so hard???? I don't know cause I sure have asked HIM!! He's my husband but his patterns are set I'm afraid.

It's life... ;-) Maureen

Hi Everyone; That sound's 100% better, than the first round of advice.

Rosieo : You had me going for a minute. !

SOS Pads work good on a lot of Glass and China for marks.
I clean stubborn stains on windows with them.

A while back I had a thread on the stains on Auotmatic
Coffeemakers carafate or water reservoir.
The water level couldn't be read because of the stain.

I tried every thing. SOS pad was the only thing that worked.
Merry Christmas Again,
LOU

Years ago, I hosted a holiday dinner. Stupidly, I placed the challah on a silver tray with a doily. We gave the honor of cutting the challah to my dearest friend's father, and he went to town. I still have the tray, scratches and all, and every time I look at it, I remember that lovely night, my friend, and her dad who passed away soon after that meal. Turn your scratches into memories.

Oh now I love elisamcs's response! I like you!

Elisamcs : And you can still put a doily under the next Challah you cut !!!

Shawn : How about Mine and Me ?????
LOU

OH LOU you know I LOVE you!! Always have - always will.

I have to agree, you can't tell your guests to be more gentle with your china, they are going to wonder why on earth you are using the stuff if it's that easily damaged.

On the other hand, Fenworth had a good idea. You might be able to find a way to comment early in the dinner on how much you like your new Christmas china, and how much you like to use it for this festive dinner with the family, but you are disappointed by how delicate the finish seems to be. Of course, everyone will pick up the nearest plate and look at it from all angles, but they might be a little more gentle when they cut their meat.

Have a good Christmas.

Piper, I, for one, would be interested in what response you get back from V&B. Will you let us know what they say?

Dances,

Mosaic bowling balls? Holy cow! The poor woman must have been rolling in her grave. Too funny--and sad at the same time.

I, alas, have no fine china. My m-i-l, who meant well, pressured me into not registering for it. She hates the set she registered for, and figured I'd end up hating mine too (not sure I get the logic). With 3 kids, it just never seems to be the right time to spend money on china. One of these days. I picked up a set of Christmas plates at Target, so that's what I use at the holiday. If they get abused, it's no big deal.

I third the advice to try some Barkeeper's Friend or the Magic Eraser. Works great on the silvery marks I get on my white sink.

Sharon, I have no fine china either, and I'm perfectly happy with that.

My Christmas family dinner is 40 and about half are under the age of 12, so good china would be destined for destruction.

Like Rosieo, my grandchildren come, also my great nieces and nephews, the grandparents. Four generations of family attend. A couple of years ago i gave up and started buying plastic plates, but I at least buy green and red, LOL. Everyone sighed in relief because now there is no washing dishes for 40. I sighed the most, I think.

I do have some stoneware with those gray marks and I did find that Barkeeper's Friend took some of the marks off, although the dishes are about 30 years old so nothing will remove them all, short of breaking. (grin) Still, the stuff works pretty well.

I agree that there's no polite way to phrase a request to be careful with the dishes, but fenworth may have found the best and most diplomatic. I also agree that I'd be contacting the manufacturer. If they can't replace the pieces they may have suggestions for helping repair the marks.

Oh, and Lou, I wipe my fingers on my napkin too. I thought that was what a napkin was FOR. I guess I could wipe them on my clothes from now on. of course, I wash the napkins and I wash my clothes, so it's all going to the same laundry, LOL.

Annie

Annie,

I agree with you. Every once in a while I get a hankering for them though. But, our house is much more casual, so it's all fine in the end.

Actually, what would really make me happy is if my boys would give me some sign that they are absorbing the table manners I'm trying to teach them. I read some of the descriptions above and I worry! Please tell me they won't need me to remind them to use a napkin when they are 30!

Sharon s : My Grandmother had a good way for you to
remember table manners. The wooden spoon.
When I was a youngun, we were hardly allowed to talk at the dinner table.

I smell Apple Butter ?????
LOU

OK, Lou, I'm sending you an email. I need an address and I'll get you your apple butter, LOL.

Annie

When I was about 16, we had unexpected 'extras' for Thanksgiving dinner -- my father's cousin and his wife and two (obnoxious) children. The little girl jumped up from her seat for some reason, went running wildly around the dining room, and knocked over the antique teacart. It was loaded down with coffee cups and saucers and dessert plates for two dozen guests. You could have heard the crash a block away! Virtually every single piece of china shattered. I will never forget seeing my mother totally ignore the broken dishes, instead gathering that stunned child into her arms, hugging her and saying, "Oh, Alice, I'm so thankful you weren't hurt!"

That is the mental image evoked if you ask me to define the word "hostess". As with most things, it's all about priorities.....

Oh my gosh! Talk about grace under pressure. What did her parents do? And, tell the truth --What was your mother's reaction after they left?

steelmagnolia - Wow! I'm all about being a good host and all, but there's no doubt in my mind that I would have lost it without caring who I offended!

Magnolia, your mother is my new hero. I would have imploded from the stress of all that self restraint.

Rosie! You've cracked me right up!

Chipped china is a show of character. My husband, mother in law and I all agree, "You aint living if your china isn't chipped". I guess in your case it'd be scratched. Don't save it for a rainy day or only the most "special of times". Every day is special. Use it, really use it, daily with the best intentions of enjoying.

However....some people do have a really heavy hand with a knife.
In the church kitchen, they were using those hard plastic cutting boards and someone had given a new set of cutco knives...but in short order theyw ere dull as a butter knife.
So when I started doing lunches, I bought those flexible plastic cutting mats and a couple of wooden boards....and 6 fairly good knives that I keep under lock and key and only let out when I am there. And I often have men helping chop veggies etc.
And in no time some of those mats were nearly cut in half. I watched and some people chop instead of cutting...literally pick the knife up and bang it down when cutting up lettuce.
I can only guess what might happen with a serrated steak knife on a nice plate....fine china or not.
Linda C

Linda, my guess is that a lot of people aren't used to having sharp knives. Or even good quality knives, sharpened well or not.

Yes, the Teacart Trauma (as we always referred to it later) was pretty dramatic. But everyone handled it beautifully. Her parents didn't say much, even though we knew that they had to be mortified beyond belief. Thankfully, they seemed to realize it would have made a bad situation far worse if they went ballistic on the daughter and caused a scene. The little girl herself knew she'd done something really awful and was a perfect angel the rest of the day. The rest of us just helped clean up the mess and then started chatting madly about everything under the sun, acting as if nothing unusual had happened. I mean, when your hostess is that gracious, it behooves you to be a perfect guest, right? After a pretty rocky start, we actually ended up having a fun day.

Believe it or not, bean there, all Mama said afterwards was that she was 'a little sick' just because it was her wedding china. But she kept reminding us it was a miracle the kid wasn't cut to ribbons when she fell face-first on top of the cart, and that was the important thing. (And, no, she wasn't faking it. That's just how she was.) Of course, the rest of us, not being quite so saintly, had *plenty* to say about taking undisciplined little banshees into polite society... :)

But you know what they say about karma. My mother had the good kind in spades, so there was a happy ending to this little tale. Many months later -- just in time for Thanksgiving, in fact -- she received a couple of very large packages with "Fragile" stickers all over them. Yep, you guessed it -- every piece of the broken china replaced. Her pattern had been discontinued, and this was long before the internet made tracking down such things easy. It had taken lots of time and effort on our cousins' part to find everything, but they finally managed to locate it all. Pretty cool, huh?

Oh, and I'm sure Mama would want me to add that Alice grew up to be a lovely person, not obnoxious in the least. :) Many, many years later, she told me it was the most awful memory of her childhood, and that she would never forget my mother's kindness. Lessons to be learned, huh?

Amen, amen.

What a lovely reminder, as I've been thinking less than generous thoughts myself over some upcoming meals.

thank you, Steelmagnolia, for the reminder that people truly should be more important than things, always.

If we could only all be as gracious, myself included, many holiday dinners would be far more pleasant.

Annie

Steelmagnolia, thanks for such a great story. I hope I can be half as gracious should the situation arise.

A contrasting story happened to me a few years ago when my middle son Radish was 18 months old. I had taken the 2 boys to FL to visit friends and family. My aunt has a bit of OCD (I know now)and refused to allow any of her silver or glass tchotchkies to be moved to higher shelves. I tried to be diligent watching the kids, but Radish got his paws on a glass votive and broke it. My aunt was gone at the time, but when she came home much later she didn't greet me or say hello to my kids, just immediately started freaking out about the votive. She wouldn't even look at me eventhough I was apologizing profusely. She ignored me and kept talking to my uncle, telling him how valuable it was and how their friends the whoever-rich-people gave it to them, etc.. I felt like crap. I got up the next day and took my kids to stay with friends instead of spending more time with my family.

As soon as I got back to CT I went online and had a replacement sent. It was $19. Yep, $19. I wanted to send her a crate of them.

AM
The Dinner Chronicles

Steelmagnolia, your story put tears in my eyes, and the follow-up made them spill over. How lucky you are to have had someone so extraordinary to teach you how to be a human being.

Steelmagnolia, what a nice story. I'm so glad to hear that your mother's china was replaced. Grace on both fronts.

Arabella, I feel your pain. I'm so sorry your aunt put you through that! My husband's aunt has OCD, but is so sweet and tolerant of young people. She invited us to stay with us in her pristine house w/ white carpet everywhere. I have 3 boys, and they were little at the time. They are dears and we watch them like hawks, but I was so worried. I'll always be grateful to her for never once making us feel like we were causing her any pain. She would wait until we had left the house before she did any straightening... put all her breakables up. I'll always be grateful to her for that.

Yay, a happy ending! And kudos to the cousins for putting the effort into replacing the pieces. Not because of the pieces but because making the effort showed conscientiousness.

Steelmagnolia, your mother sounds like a lovely person! What a beautiful story.

For the original question, I remember vividly an experience of 30 years ago. I was eating Thanksgiving dinner at my sister's home. She served a turkey that was nicely done, hardly shoe leather. But for some reason, I felt the knife bite into the plate a bit as I sliced off one bite. I adjusted for future bites, but the damage was done. I've never had that happen before or since. The plates was Noritake china, about 2 years old. The knives were siverplate, without serrated edges. My Mom's Noritake china was used a few times a year for 40+ years, and still doesn't have any scratches.

Lovely ladies - I just bought a new set of Lenox Christmas China - Winter Greetings, our families first China. I bought it for the enjoyment of my 79 year old mother, who I want to have the most special Christmas gathering in every way. Anyway, the thought occurred to me, what if people scratch this very nice expensive new China? Will China withstand use of a knife on it? It has been pressing in the back of my mind since I got the China in October.

I appreciate all the insightful answers in this thread.

I had already planned to cook 'soft food', that required minimal cutting. I showed the lovely dishes to my mother and told her, 'we have to cook food that does not require cutting with a knife for Christmas, because I don't want to damage the plates'. She didn't say anything, just nodded okay. She makes an incredible roast every year anyway, so that's not a problem.

But - to answer the question....I don't entertain a large group of extended family, there will only be about 5 of us, including me, my mother, my sister, her husband, and my boyfriend.

Be assured, if anyone places a cold glass on wood furniture, I will quickly say 'use a coaster', 'get a coaster', 'do you have a coaster under that?', just as I do throughout the rest of the year.

If I feel the need to say something about not scratching the China, I will have no qualms saying 'I bought this China for us to have a nice Christmas. It was expensive, so be careful with it and don't scratch it up.'

They're family. They know me. I can 'get onto them' about using coasters and being careful with plates, because we love each other. I am not going to internally fret or decompensate about dishware, while trying to maintain a facade and it ruin my Christmas. I love my family, we are all down to earth, and we all appreciate that China, furniture etc. costs money. We are all adults and know that things need to be taken care of. I would not be offended in the least if I went to someone else's house and they asked me to take care with their china. Only a very inconsiderate person would not expect to treat another's home with care.

There. I say, if you are concerned, let them know to please handle your property with care. Straightforward, no mincing words, politely, and caringly.

Reading through all this again, and being the OLD lady I am, I'll have to say again what my husband said the first time this came around, they're only dishes! for some strange reason this old hymn popped into my head. God calling yet, shall I not hear, earth's treasures shall I still hold dear??

Funny I was just thinking about this thread yesterday. Can't believe it's ten years old. Where does time go. I miss some of these folks.

Be sure not to use steak knives. I think I would seriously consider a favorite--beef stroganoff.

At first I didn't realize this was an old thread. Dishes shouldn't scratch from cutting a steak. I've been using Corelle for years and serve steaks and use very sharp steak knives and never noticed a scratch. I would say that the dishes are cheaply made if they scratch. There is no way to tell you guests that the plates are cheaply made junk, don't cut your steak with a knife...LMAO!

The last thing I would want is china that scratches. I would have asked for my money back from the store before telling anyone that his or her cutting technique is too vigorous! Life is too short to worry about stuff.

I think there is some that scratches and some that never scratches. My friend had a WM set and it took a yar for it to scratch. I've been using my Spode Blue Italian "forever" and have nary a scratch on it. So it may not be the people as much as the china. I would perhaps contact the company and tell them you're unhappy with it.

the dishes that notably mark up are Pfaltzgraf...Heritage I think it's called...sort of a gray blue with blue trim...very heavy stoneware that marks very easily.

My "newest" china is my wedding china from 1966; as I said, it's the "youngest". All my china gets used and has always been used regularly. I can't say that I've ever noticed SERIOUS scratching, but all china ends up with light scratch marks from normal usage, just as sterling silver flatware does. None of these light scratches take away from the beauty of the china or the silver. They are part of the patina.

I USE my nice things! Why have them if no one uses them? One of my sterling flatware sets has been used on a daily basis now for 51 years; the others are used from time to time. I love them all...

I have a set of inexpensive china that I've had since I was married. It's packed away and has been used maybe 3 or 5 times.

I had the white Pfaltzgraff years ago. Used it for everyday dishes for several years but got tired of it...and the gray marks from silverware that accumulated on it.

Had a set of those lodge look green and white dishes with the moose on them. Used them for several years. Got tired of them.

Now, I'm using restaurant dishes...the white oval platters that I've accumulated from garage sales. Also some sage solid colored plates....some blue solid colored plates...and some Pfaltzgraff plates in the Napoli pattern. All from rummage sales. The guys always grab the Pfaltzgraff plates---I think it's because those things are huge!

I get tired of dishes and want a change but very rarely do I see dishes that I like. Seem to do best finding ones that appeal to me at rummage sales. So, I never worry about wear & tear on dinnerware knowing that I'm always on the lookout for 'a change'.

Go to a stone shop. They can easily polish off most scratches.

Or, learn lapidary as a hobby and do it yourself.

dcarch

A scratch through the glaze can't be polished off without removing more of the glaze.
T Mc C...the OP. Your Lenox is very very unlikely to scratch, even if you serve steak and provide steak knives. Good "china"...won't scratch. I collect antique dishes....I have stacks and stacks of plates many 120 or more years old and none newer than 33 years...many porcelain, some stoneware....and there is not a scratch on any....chips...but no knife scratches. Of course many have had steaks ( some tough ones I am sorry to admit) served on them and been cut on with steak knives....but I am sure any damage was more to the knives than the plate.
I don't use Corelle...its not china it's glass and not really what we are talking bout as it has no glaze...it's glass not china.

There are different kinds of stoneware. The high fired kind never ever scratches. The kind common in less expensive dishes does. There's less variation in porcelain, but in less expensive dishes you can still get scratches. I don't care. :) I bought service for two dozen of cheap dreck but pretty porcelain (under $100 on closeout) for company. I think there's probably a scratch or two. People don't see them when there's food on the plate! They just see the beautiful table and ooh and ahh. I filled in with a couple of sets for eight of a complementary pattern that do seem to have a harder glaze...and cost almost twice as much :) With place settings for forty, I've never had to resort to kitchen dishes. :)

I love lovely things, but I don't worry about my company dishes. If someone gets the table cloth caught in his belt and crashes the whole thing, it's making sure people aren't cut, and then seeing if the food was spared that are the issues, not the tableware. :) Not that it's happened. Not that the toddlers haven't had their chances at it. No chips or breaks so far (and ward off the evil eye!). Lots of peace of mind. Who needs more stress?

If it's only enough company to fit the dining room table, I set finer dishes. They're not better looking, though, just better quality. :)

"A scratch through the glaze can't be polished off without removing more of the glaze."

Almost all the scratches are extremely shallow and can be polished away easily. If your dishes have deep scratches, don't ever use them to serve.

I have the opposite view. Serrated knives encourages light pressure horizontal sawing and therefore cause less damage. Regular knives require downward pressure to cut which can cause more scratches.

dcarch..