Water Softener/Existing Copper Problems

12 years ago

Our home was built in 1996. Have had numerous water leaks. Yesterday the plumber was out yet again. Suggested investing in a Water Softener. We have well water. Gave me a name to a Kinetico Dealer. He did a test. Did not elaborate much. Said hardness level was 26.5. TDS Level was 1700. His product could work wonders. Knee Jerk reaction was to buy! After sleeping on it I never impulse buy. I research everything to death. Started this morning.

I called Culligan. The Culligan Man was very helpful and made a recommendation. He also added that during the time my home was built some bad copper came out of Mexico and he has encountered other homes built in the area that have experienced similiar problems. He also added that he has customers with higher readings that do not have the leak problems that we have had. Both of the dealers explained that removing the hardness from the water should help my situation. The sodium levels would remain about the same with the exception of the drinking water treated by the undersink RO.

I guess my questions are: Will the softening process be helpful to my copper problem with the sodium # so high?

What other numbers do I need to know to get a handle on this problem?

Where do I start?!?

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Comments (7)

User
12 years ago
Both companies are a little right and surprisingly wrong. Could be inferior copper or PH problems which can result in pinhole leaks in copper pipes.

If neither has mentioned checking the PH of your well water then they are both of questionable competence.

Why do you think your sodium # is high? High TDS is not necessarily sodium but is total dissolved solids.

Is 26.5 hardness gpg or ppm?

Where you start is... get a comprehensive water test from an independent lab. An independent lab has no agenda and won't be trying to sell you water treatment equipment. This is a MUST DO because without it everything is a guess. A quickie water test from a water softener company won't be as accurate (and possibly not as competent) as from a certified independent lab.

Hit the Yellow Pages and call at least three local INDEPENDENT water treatment pros. You've already called the big dogs (Kinetico or Culligan) for comparison. DON'T TELL THEM YOU HAD YOUR WATER TESTED.

Give each an opportunity to offer suggestions and provide you with a quote to meet your water treatment needs. IGNORE ANY THAT DON'T TEST YOUR WATER THEMSELVES as they can't speak intelligently to water treatment without knowing what needs to be treated.

Ask lots of questions. Softening the entire house or just the water heater? Warranty, parts & labor or just parts, how long and on exactly what? Install, permits required, licensed plumber? Routine maintenance and costs? Do they stock parts? Response time for emergency (water leak) calls? If they don't explain things to your satisfaction that is a good indicator of how you'll be treated after the sale.

After they've gone use your water test to compare with theirs. Are all your treatment needs being addressed?

Ask your neighbors if they have any water treatment experience. They might tell you who's good or who to avoid.

Come back here and post the specific recommendations and hardware components with the costs and we'll give you our opinions.
lizzywho
Original Author
12 years ago
Thank You. No luck finding an independant lab for water testing in phone book. That is my first comprehensive search to be done.

Very, Very, Very rural area. The only person close lost his system to a power surge. He had a very basic system. He said it did help a little.

I may have assumed more into the sodium situation. The Kinetico guy was going on about how persons with certain medical conditions should not drink the water due to the sodium content. RO sales pitch?

I have a lot of homework to do.

I will be back with more questions when I get some info...may take a while.

Your assistance is much appreciated.
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You will see closer to a 5% reduction using a twin system. The only way you would see close to a 15% reduction in salt usage is if somehow you always hit the cutoff right as you used the last drop of water for the day. Close, because twin tanks use softened water for brine make-up, which increases salt usage by a bit. You will save 2-3 lb potassium chloride per month using a twin vs single-tank system, assuming you regen with 4 lb salt/cuft of resin. It is possible to regen with an even lower salt dosage, but not successfully in a standard softener. For that you would need a packed bed softener, such as those offered by Kinetico. They are mechanically operated by water power, rather than electronically controlled. Although they come at a premium price, they are very reliable. If your chief concern is environmental, they are worth a look. The 2x1cuft twin system you have quoted above should work fine for your purposes if you prefer a Fleck softener. Alternately, a 1.5 cuft single tank would work. For watering outdoor plants you may wand to consider alternating between raw water and softener effluent. The effluent will have a very high TDS. Coupled with your already high pH, it could burn your plants if it is their primary source of water. There is a big difference between watering with potassium-softened water and watering with potassium chloride saturated water.
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I love my RO filter. Most of my out of town relatives who've come to visit have commented on how they like my water, not knowing it was filtered. One small additional benefit with a softener + RO combination is that the RO membrane will last a bit longer than if you feed it "regular" water. My RO is plumbed to the fridge so it can feed the icemaker + water dispenser, and I have a separate spigot at my prep sink. It sounds like you're already doing it, but you'll want to be sure that you run RO water through plastic tubing, not directly in copper pipes. The plastic tubing is normally run inside the copper pipe. Be aware that the RO filter removes fluoride, so if you have kids you might want to talk to your dentist about it. A fluoride toothpaste and fresh fruit should be plenty of fluoride, but talk to your dentist.
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I assume you do not currently have a softener in place. Please confirm. I will try to go through your questions in order. Conductivity: This will always be higher than TDS. It has to do with they types of ions in your water. Your conductivity is on the high end of the scale based on your TDS, but not out of line. Other analysis: Do you have any rusty, brown, or black staining on fixtures? If so - test your water for iron and manganese. Sediment filtration: Two cartridge filters is certainly a viable option. Install them in parallel so that one cartridge may be changed without interrupting water supply to your home. Make sure to use 4" diameter, not 2". Big Blue is a very reliable brand. I like the clear housings for a visible indicator, but that is just my personal preference. All cartridge filters are a pain to change. If you currently have to make frequent cartridge changes you may wish to consider a backwashing sediment filter instead of cartridges. It would be similar in appearance to a softener, but pretty much no work on your part to operate. Softeners: Kinetico softeners are very reliable, but expensive (as you mentioned). If you are willing to spend the money up front and like your local dealer, they would be a good choice. Regeneration time is not an issue with any twin-tank softener, whether Kinetico or Fleck, since one tank is always available to provide soft water while the other is being regenerated. A Fleck of Clack twin tank softener would take up significantly more space than a Kinetico because you would have to purchase a larger softener to accommodate the higher flow rate for your jacuzzi tub. Sprinkler system: Yes, bypass the sprinkler system. There is no sense paying to soften all that extra water. RO: Any RO system will last longer if fed softened water. The minerals you get from water are in minute quantities - even heavily mineral laden water would be insufficient to provide the minerals your body needs. Additionally, your water has nitrates. If you want them removed from your drinking water, RO is the only reasonable way to do so. Why do you want a carbon filter? What, specifically, do you want removed from your water? Certainly two would be overkill. Once may be as well, unless you have a specific contaminant in mind. Softener bypass: Here is a picture of what a three-valve bypass should look like. And a drawing of a setup:
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brickeyee
12 years ago
"No luck finding an independant lab for water testing in phone book. "

So search on the internet.

Water testing is actually VERY standardized.

Sometimes to the point of missing things (if you do not look/test for a particular item you will never see it).
User
12 years ago
You can contact state or county Environmental Heath and they should be able to point you to certified labs. Might also check local universities.

Living on a well you should be having routine (annual) tests of your well water at least for nitrates and bacteria so when you find a lab keep their phone number on the fridge.

Unless someone in your home has a doctor's order for no sodium diet there is little to worry about. At your hardness the increase of sodium in one liter of your water from the softening process is about the same as the sodium content of a slice of white bread. There is the alternative of using KCl to regenerate the softener if someone at home is on a no sodium diet.

At your hardness and TDS I would recommend an under sink RO in the kitchen for drinking, cooking, and ice making/fridge... but not necessarily a $1500 RO ;)

When we get the results of a comprehensive water test then we can speak intelligently regarding what needs to be treated in your water.
lazypup
12 years ago
Call the water department in the nearest community that has a municipal water supply.. They maintain their own lab because they have to test their water 5 or 6 times a day..

Nearly every one that I have ever spoken to will do a very comprensive test for a modest fee of about $20-$25
andy_c
12 years ago
A water softener will have no effect, either positive or negative, on the corrosion of your copper plumbing. If your copper pipes had leaks before the softener, they will have them after the softener is installed.

I never heard of the Bad Mexican Copper theory before but my guess is that it would be a pH problem. At 26 grains, your TDS is abnormally high and either the reading is inaccurate or there is a "lot of something else" in your water.

Your pipes might also be suffering from electrolysis. Make sure the pipes are grounded and electric wires are coming inot contact with them.
lizzywho
Original Author
12 years ago
Thank you for all the info and direction. Working on finding a Lab.

Water Softener/Existing Copper Problems

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Water Softener/Existing Copper Problems

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