Personally, I think you worry too much.

The NH plumber is a licensed plumber in his own state. Therefore, he is competent to carry out this job. The licencing issue isn't important. The quality of the work is.

Thw quality of the work is guaranteed by the local plumbing inspector. If he says that the work passes code, then that's all that matters. What's really being inspected here is the drain, waste and vent piping. The water piping isn't all that important. It either leaks or it doesn't. Of course, a plumber is obligated to use the correct sizes of piping and a few other things but by and large, the hot/cold lines have wide discretion as to how they are run inside a home.

Maybe a Master Plumber is supposed to be on site when an apprentice is working. So what? No master is going to stand around watching every glue joint made by his apprentice. It isn't practical to do so. If an apprentice has shown himself to be a capable and trustworthy tradesman, then a master can return to the site, look over what the apprentice did that day and decide whether it meets code or not.

My advice.... forget about all this licencing and apprentice crap and place your trust in the plumbing inspector. It is he who has to sign off that the work was done correctly. If it turns out that it wasn't done right, then your cause of legal action will be against the town's plumbing department.

USA post. Obviously the apprentice cannot be personally supervised at every moment. The "licensed" person has the responsibility for the supervision and for the results of the efforts of the apprentice. In NC, the "renting" of a license carries dire penalties for both "contractors". In your case, the license holder, the legally responsible party, is not at all involved in your plumbing installation. You may well have a good installation and the inspector is an important part of the situation. Your concern is genuine.

Thanks for the input. Yes, I do worry too much. But, as I said, there's more to the story. Our builder has turned out to be extremely untrustworthy, and we've had difficulties with a lot of their subs. Conversely, the subs we've chosen ourselves have worked out great, and any small problems have been immediately rectified, so I don't think it's us.

It's not so much the licensure or lack thereof that concerns me--it's the fact that I don't trust them. If the inspector is only signing off on the big stuff, then how can I trust that an unsupervised apprentice knows what he's doing with everything else? It seems that there is so little that the inspector actually signs off on, so there must be a number of things that no one with experience is checking on. I don't expect the master plumber to watch every move the apprentice makes, but I would think he should at least be checking over his work when it's complete, shouldn't he?

I feel as though this plumber has been jerking us around from the start--and now to find out that we don't even have a plumber who is licensed in any state actually checking over all the work just seems wrong. The guy just seems dishonest all around, and that makes everything he does suspect.

Don't get me wrong. I do understand your concern and now is the best time to nip this in the bud.

If you haven't figured out that I am in Canada, then take this as my declaration. Therefore, I cannot comment on the rules in your state or any adjacent one.

What I can comment on is plumbing in general. As I said previously, the DWV piping is the most important part of the work. Waste water must flow properly and air must be allowed into the waste lines for that to happen and to allow gases to escape to the exterior of the home.

So..... aside from properly made glue joints, the issue is one of proper fall in the pipes, proper sizing of the pipes, proper direction of certain fittings that are directional and proper distances. The quality of the glued joints can be tested by sealing off the DWV system in the basement and at all the various appliances (tubs, sinks, showers etc.) Using a hose, the plumber goes up to the roof and inserts it into the vent that protrudes through the roof itself. He then fills the entire DWV system.

IF there are any bad glue joints, they will leak from the hydrostatic pressure in the pipes. I don't know if your local authority demands this test or not. You could ask.

If you continue to be dissatisfied, then I suggest you write a letter to the building department that issued the permit for the construction work and copy it to the plumbing department. Keep a copy for your own records.

Calmly outline your concerns and provide them with a brief history to date. This is called "putting them on notice" and they will have to act on that information. Phone calls can be denied. Registered letters or hand-delivered letters that are signed for, cannot be denied.

And of course, if you are still holding back a substantial amount of money, then that too is a powerful tool in getting things done to your satisfaction. If you wish to go this route, then stop talking to people. Put everything in writing and INSIST that they reply in writing.

Get a lawyer and remove the plumber from the premises, get a contractor locally or use the media outlets to blow the situation wide open.

I've been spending less time on this website because the advertising and pop-up ads are simply ridiculous.

The marketing world figured out that less people watch tv these days and now "particular" sites for monetary gain cater to the blatant interruption of normal viewing/participation. I purposely do not buy anything that abruptly enters my viewing space.

Inspectors are a JOKE. Passing is NOT an indication the job was one correctly, by any means.

Well, I went back and re-read our contract. It says, "Work will be performed by licensed plumbers in accordance with all national, state, and local codes." I would have to say that an apprentice and/or a plumber not licensed in this state wouldn't quite fit into that category. Would you guys agree?

Castoff--Thanks for all the good info. I'm hesitant to take our concerns to the city until we have our CO. We have a temporary one now, and should have the final one next week. I'm a bit afraid to rock the boat with the city before that.

Peteyboy--I assume that means you think that what they're doing isn't legal, correct? Also, on one of the GW forums recently, there was a discussion about pop-ups. I didn't read the whole thing, but I believe the people who used Mozilla weren't getting them. You may get some ideas if you do a search.

Pete p ny--Yeah, we know that now! I'm so surprised. It seems as though the electrical inspector checks every single outlet, but the plumbing inspector hardly does anything.

I would agree that work being carried out by a licenced plumber that is not licenced by the state that he is performing work in would be a breach of the contract.

I would not agree that work being carried out by an apprentice working for a plumber properly licensed in that state is a breach of the contract. Apprentices are always the ones who do the "dog work" on the jobs. It's the duty of the master plumber to oversee, inspect and correct any deficiencies of the apprentices.

To me, there are two issues. The most important one to you is whether the work that has been performed to date meets code and is up to the standards of the trade. If it is, then you have no real damages here. It would be up to you to PROVE that the work was deficient in some way and needed to be corrected.

The secondary issue is the legality of one plumber taking out a permit for another plumber. If that is not allowed, then it is an issue between the town/city and those plumbers. You aren't really involved in that.

Castoff,

Thanks again for your insights. I don't mean to sound as though I'm asking a question and then arguing with the answer, but I'm still stuck on this apprentice thing.

I wouldn't have any problem at all if the apprentice were doing the work and his boss was stopping by now and then to check on it--or even inspecting it afterwards. But, the apprentice was working at our house without any oversight at all by anyone. The boss never even looked at his work--and I don't think he plans to.

I never thought about the permit issue being solely between the city and the plumber--what you said makes sense. I'm so frustrated with the plumber right now that I'd love to see him get in trouble with someone!

We have a 42" square Maxx shower unit (walls and base are separate pieces) that was installed in an alcove that has three walls. Until yesterday when the finish fixtures were installed, the shower was covered by plastic and had lots of junk tossed into it, so we never really saw it after installation--until today. The pan slopes toward the opening and the seams don't meet correctly--they're narrower on one side than on the other. I'm guessing that the framing wasn't square, so the shower didn't fit in quite right. I would think that something should have been shimmed, or the plumber should have told the builder to reframe the area. At this point, I can't imagine the hassle of having the shower removed and the problems corrected. However, I'm worried about these seams that don't meet properly--not so much because of leaks (I know there's a good overlap), but because of water just sitting in the gaps and causing mildew.

Fortunately, our daughter has an on-again/off-again relationship with a plumber. We called her today and they're in a good place right now, so I think he's going to come take a look at this tomorrow.

The fact that this worker is an apprentice does not mean he is incapable of doing good work. He could be a first year apprentice or he could be in his third year. At one time, an apprentice moved to the position of "journeyman". The whole apprenticeship system has disappeared here in Ontario many, many years ago and I don't know where things are at in the trades any longer.

That said, you don't have to accept sloppy workmanship from any one of the trades. If the shower stall was framed improperly or the shower unit was assembled and installed poorly, then tell your GC that HE has to get it corrected NOW because it isn't satisfactory to you. Who cares how much of a hassle it is to dismantle it. You are paying for a good job, not a bad one.

The time to be firm is now. And if being firm doesn't do it, then get tough. Go to your attorney and have him write a letter to the GC stating that he either corrects these problems or he's fired.

I knew a guy who was acting as his own general on his dream home. When he interviewed for a framing crew, he asked the owner if he owned a carpenter's square and a level. The answer was "yes, why do you ask?". The home owner replied. "Because I expect you to know how to use those tools. If you don't make proper use of them, you will be sorry."

The sub-floor was built satisfactorily on the first day. On the second day, the first floor framing went up. That night, the homeowner arrived to check the work. He found over half the walls to be out of square or not plumb. The lift of lumber for the second floor was on the site, ready for the next day. When the framing crew arrived in the morning, all the walls they had been put up the previous day were laying on the ground.

The homeowner used a sledge hammer to knock them down. The crew chief was furious. The homeowner told him that he had two options. Either put those walls back up and make them plumb and square or get the hell off his site because he wasn't going to pay them a dime. They stayed and finished the job. The walls were all done properly.

Drastic? Perhaps. But he got his point across.

This is just my two cents :-)

My husband is a plumber and in this state a master plumber is to pull all permits required

Here anyone who is not a master plumber is considered an apprentice journeyman. It can take 12-15 years of experience and testing to meet the standards for a master plumber so that isnt always a good point of reference

That the guy panicked is bad. Also that your floor/pan is not plumb is a huge issue moisture can do a tremedous amout of damage in the long term. Make a list to go over with your daughters friend so that you and he can address all your concerns

Depending on local codes some require inspection on all rough plumbing (pipes/drains/vents) and a few include finish plumbing (your fixtures). If they were not ready for inspection its a waste of time to have the inspector out and if he is called multiple times to a job site that is not ready they get rather ticked over that most are over scheduled anyways so only bring them out when you are ready

When dealing with your GC make sure you out everything in writing and get everything back in writing

Good luck you have gotten some great advice from the others

Amy

Hello,
In Texas, a licensed Master must pull the permit. This does not apply to HO's doing thier own work. They pull thier own permit with some qualifications locally.

1 Master can supervise a bunch of jobs. It is his reputation that guarantees the job. If he visits once a day or possibly a completed task, this will suffice. Running rough-in plumbing isnt the issue, the accuracy of the job, the sizing of the pipe, the placement of the pipe is what is important. Many larger companies have one man pull all permits, and then assign work to the helpers. A journeyman may inspect the work for the master sometimes. This is the same thing as what is happening to you.

In Texas, you must be a licensed contractor to advertize, This means you have to employ FT a masterplumber to take naps and pull permits. If you don't advertize the sky is the limit. If you are bonded or licensed, then the HO is protected.

Obviously many of those responding to this question know even less about licensing and the apprenticeship than they do about plumbing.

In this case the Massachusetts Plumber is the "Plumber of Record" and as such he or she is individually responsible for all conditions of the job.

In commercial plumbing generally the design and layout of the Potable water distribution system, DWV system and gas lines are previously designed and engineered and the Plumber of Record is given a set of building prints and written specifications reflecting the layout.

In residential plumbing the Plumber of Record is given a site plan and a floor plan of the proposed layout. It is then the responsibility of the Plumber of Record to perform all necessary calculations and develop the overall layout including material specifications. He or she is then responsible for submitting that plan to the proper authority and pull the necessary permits for work to commence. He or she must then co-ordinate with all respective material suppliers to order the material, schedule material arrivals and inspect that said material to insure it meets the specs. The plumber of record is also responsible for coordinating with all the other trades through the General Contractor to insure an orderly and timely work flow with a minimal disruption to other trades or to co-ordinate necessary changes to be made by other trades when required, such as informing the foundation contractor that the floor elevation may need to be raised to get the proper pitch to the municipal sewer main or perhaps relocating a septic tank to insure proper pitch of DWV. It could involve coordinating with the framing contractor to create a necessary wet wall or resolving a conflict between a DWV line and a heating duct.

The Plumber of Record is also responsible for the hiring and firing of any and all subordinate personnel that may be required to complete the plumbing portion of the job. Once he or she has hired these people he or she is then responsible to oversee their work to insure it is within the parameters of the job.

I realize that some peoples notion of direct supervision means the boss must stand around with his or her hands in their pockets and watch every little thing that goes on, but in the construction trades we are not afforded that luxury. The Plumber of Record specs the job, then hires subordinates who he or she is confident has the necessary training, experience, necessary tools and ability to carry out the said task without someone on their tail like a diaper.

The Plumber of Record is then obligated to periodically inspect or oversee the work to insure it is progressing on time and totally within the job specifications, never forgetting that if any portion of the job is done wrong it is the Plumber of Record who will ultimately be held accountable.

People of this caliber do not fall off turnip wagons or drift in from homeless shelters. A Plumbing apprenticeship is a four or five year program which involves both on the job training and classroom academics, by example, the program I went through in Florida required 50 weeks per year x 4 years = 200 forty hour weeks on the job (200wks x 40hrs = 8000 certified hours experience). Any week in which we worked less than forty hours did not count. At the end of each week we had to submit a time card to the state apprenticeship board outlining what we had done hour by hour for that week broken down by category, potable water rough-ins, DWV rough-ins, Potable water stackouts, DWV stackouts, Potable water trim outs, DWV trim outs, sewers, septic tanks, lift stations, storm drainage, Natural gas & propane direct burial and above grade installation, and a half dozen other categories. The state had a mandated minimum number of hours in each category in both residential and commercial plumbing.

In addition to the on the job training we were required to attend a state approved night school two nights a week, 4hrs per night for a period of four years and we were not permitted more than 5 unexcused absences in a calendar year. (16hrs per week x 200 weeks = 3200 classroom hours).

About 90% of the classroom hours were directly from the Plumbing Code. The remaining hours took in such topics as blue print reading, business and construction math, ASTM and NSF regulations, State & Federal EPA regulations, Workmans Comp Regulations, Permits & licensing regulations, Human relations in the workplace, OSHA regulations, personnel management and general business management.

Understanding that once the apprentice becomes a journeymen he or she will be called upon to supervise subordinates the apprenticeship is then broken down into four 1 year segments and at each level an apprentice is responsible for not only performing their own work but also coordinating with the Masters, journeymen and all others higher in the echelon while supervising apprentices in the levels below them.

Once this is completed you are then given a certificate of completion for the apprenticeship programs as well as a diploma from the school. With those two documents and a written recommendation from a Master you may then be permitted to sit for the licensing exam.

In the state of Florida the licensing exam is an 8hr open book exam. The state issues a list of books including the plumbing code, tax codes, state & Federal OSHA regulations, EPA regulations & insurance laws from which the exam may be taken. Each prospective applicant it required to provide current copies of those books ($600 for the books) plus pay a non-refundable testing fee of $250. If you fail the exam you must then wait 6 months before you may retests and by then many of the codes or regulations will have changed so you need to get updates for all your book and pay another $250 testing fee. (For the record there is a 70% failure rate for first time testing and less than 5% of those who initially enter the apprenticeship stay long enough to complete the program).

So to answer the question, may an apprentice or an out of state plumber run your job? The answer is yes. As the Plumber of Record I may delegate authority to anyone in my direct employ to carry out all aspects of the job with the understanding that I must make periodic inspections to insure the job is being done correctly and if not, it is I who will ultimately be held accountable.

Be cautioned about the so called apprentice. In NJ, you find a bunch of illegals (south of the border) doing all the work. And they are NOT in an apprenticeship program. The contractor hires them for the day so they can bang out plumbing, electrical work, framing, tiling, landscaping, patios, etc. In my opinion, they should all be thrown the hell out of this country.

>I've been spending less time on this website because the advertising and pop-up ads are simply ridiculous.

Ads? What ads?? I see nothing but the GardenWeb banners at the top and bottom!!

One word peteyboy: Firefox :-)

That, and get the following Firefox extensions:
Adblock Plus (subscribe to the free EasyList (USA) filter after restarting Firefox)
Flashblock (selectively allow often-annoying Flash content)Optional recommended extensions:
NoScript (selectively allow Java and Java-script on a per-site basis)
IE Tab (allows stupid, non-W3C-standard sites that require Internet Explorer)Seriously, I see virtually zero ad content, pop-up or otherwise. When I work on someone's PC who uses IE, I'm blown away (appalled, really) at all the crap that continually pops up all over the place.

Geez I must be spoiled. :-) :-)

And now, back to the originally slotted post....

Regarding the statement of "If it turns out that it wasn't done right, then your cause of legal action will be against the town's plumbing department." may be right for Canadian townships but I don't think it applies to many US jurisdictions.

In NC, specifically Wake County, there is not legal recourse against the county or their inspectors if they miss something. Any recourse would be against the licensed company/person pulling the permit.

It is wishful thinking to believe that as long as the local jurisdiction passes the inspections then that particular job was done to the correct standards to meet the minimum code.

And those minimum standards in the code are usually written with safety as the primary consideration, not that the design was done to best practices or that it will result in satisfactory performance.

While we are on this topic I would like to offer a serious word of caution to homeowners. Often we see instances where a wouldbe contractor will convince the homeowner that they can save considerable money if they pull their own "Self Help Permits". In many cases this is truc, but do so with the knowledge that no matter what project your working on be it plumbing, electrical, framing, HVAC, or whatever, if you pull the permit you are legally the "Contractor of Record" and as such your are the one who is tecnically liable for code compliance therefore you will have no recourse against those who do the work.

"Inspectors are a JOKE. Passing is NOT an indication the job was one correctly, by any means."

Well put, Pete

I called my local inspector about electrical code violations he signed off on, in my newly built house:

Kitchen appliance circuit feeding outdoor outlet.

Dining room (20A)circuit wired with 14 AWG in some places.

Multiwire circuit with both "hots" on same phase.

C/Bs with two wires under one screw (not allowed by manufacturer).

Ungrounded metal J boxes.

Living room outlet fed by dining room circuit.

The AHJ's response? : "We can't be sure about everything we see"

Posted by mike13 (My Page) on Sun, Feb 18, 07 at 20:24

Regarding the statement of "If it turns out that it wasn't done right, then your cause of legal action will be against the town's plumbing department." may be right for Canadian townships but I don't think it applies to many US jurisdictions.
In NC, specifically Wake County, there is not legal recourse against the county or their inspectors if they miss something. Any recourse would be against the licensed company/person pulling the permit.

It is wishful thinking to believe that as long as the local jurisdiction passes the inspections then that particular job was done to the correct standards to meet the minimum code.

And those minimum standards in the code are usually written with safety as the primary consideration, not that the design was done to best practices or that it will result in satisfactory performance.
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If all of that is true, then why bother with any sort of inspection at all?

One way or the other, a homeowner is paying for the permit fee and part of that fee goes toward the cost of an inspection being carried out by the local authority. In my area, the local authority can insist on getting additional amounts to cover extra trips to re-inspect faulty or incomplete work.

Is it your position that the persons doing these inspections are not qualified to carry them out? Are they not fully aware of the code that applies? I find that premise to be ludicrous because it implies that the homeowner is receiving zero benefit for his money spent on permit fees.

And what if the company who performed the work goes out of business for any reason? Who does the homeowner go after at that point? If someone takes your money under the guise of "inspecting the work performed by others", then there is a duty in common law for them to do their job properly. And if they don't do their job, then that is negligence and negligence is a lawful cause of action anywhere.

My employees never worried about the Plumbing Inspector because they all knew their continued employment was conditioned upon passing my inspection long before the AHJ was called to inspect.

Jomarn, I too am from North MA right near the border. And if I was uncomfortable with the situation, I would stop work immediately. Hire a MA licensed plumber to pull a permit him/herself, go over the work to be sure it was done right and then to finish. I've found that these small-town local yokels don't stand behind anything (town hall). You need to take control of your situation. If you needed surgery, would you mind if an apprentice performed the surgery? An apprentice is just that - and he should be working alongside the contractor, not in place of. IMO

That's so funny - our Health inspector is from NH.

And we worry about our plumbers not having a proper license? This quote is from Consumer Reports, "...it's not uncommon for a dozen nonlicensed workers at an offshore facility to complete major maintenance - such as engine changes, structural repairs, and flight-systems overhauls - overseen by one certificated mechanic."
And this stuff may determine whether 300 people live or die on the next flight. It also said that about 40% of our domestic planes are serviced in these offshore repair centers. Think I'll stick with my car:-)

Lazypup--I wish you were my plumber--the way you operate is the way it should be done!

Sameboat--I'm not so much worried about whether the apprentice knows his stuff as I'm just p.o.'d that the plumbing company is getting away with this. As I mentioned, dd's bf is a plumber, and dh is pretty handy, so I'm not worried about mistakes so much as I just don't like this plumber's practices!

When we were first signing on with this builder, dh interviewed the plumber about the heating system. Dh didn't like what he heard--no imagination, did everything the way he'd always done it regardless of what we wanted, etc. So, we went with a different company for the HVAC. The builder only stands behind the subs he chooses, though, and he really pushed for the plumber, so we went with him for the plumbing. If I could do it over again, I'd use the people who are doing our HVAC. They are a class act.

We're actually in a small (small being the operative word) city, but it's small enough to be like small towns everywhere. I don't think NH is any different than anywhere else that way. I grew up in a tiny town in Connecticut that makes the NH towns over the border from us look like thriving metropolises (or is it metropoli?).

While we are on the topic of gross incompetence in the construction industry we should make some mention of the prospective homeowners who have never built so much as a bird house and wouldnt know a re-vent from a rebar yet they feel qualified to act in the capacity of a General Contractor. After having had a dozen or so experiences with these types of people I finally reached a point where I simply refuse to even submit a bid unless a certified General Contractor will head the project.

Homeowners demand that all the subs be certified to perform their task. As subs are we not permitted to expect the same level of professionalism from management?

Homeowners demand that all the subs be certified to perform their task. As subs are we not permitted to expect the same level of professionalism from management?
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Sure your are.

You can refuse to submit bids on any job or you can price it high enough to compensate for the expected agravation. It all depends on how busy you are at any given point. If you have lots of work, then you can afford to be selective. However, the opposite is "beggars can't be choosers".

Other than that, any homeowner is legally entitled to run their own project whether they know what they are doing or not. That's the way it is and it ain't going away anytime soon.

Lazypup--
In our situation, if we didn't have full-time jobs, we would've been much better off if dh had been the GC on our job. Our GC has been a major disappointment. For the last phase of building, he has all but abdicated his responsibilities. In addition, there are a number of things he did so poorly that dh had to re-do them correctly. Obviously, we got a bad one. I know there are many good ones out there, but just because someone is a licensed contractor/builder doesn't mean he's any better than a knowledgeable homeowner!

I'm finishing our basement and hired a plumber w/ 32+ yrs experience do a basement bathroom rough-in, but I pulled the permits. I'm not sure if it was a good idea or not. (Rough inspection was fine.) The more you know....

Basically a good job, but in periodic check-in's I had to "remind" him on a few things. Like many of the subs I've used, there was either a short-cut attempted or a conversation forgotten. The concrete floor patching was terrible (high, rough and bumpy). I caught that while still wet and finished it myself.

The shower rough-in was off by a foot, which I caught at the right time. Simple oversight I guess.

But regarding the shower base, I specifically required that the floor be leveled (inside the shower framing), since the floor was sloped to a drain (1/2 over 4' side-to-side, and 3/8 over 2' front-to-back). "Oh yes, yes, that's the way it has to be done and I'm going to do that".

A week later, he tried to do it without leveling, saying it looked fine and feigning "surprise" that it wasn't level when I mentioned it. I had him pull it back up and placed it myself that evening in a bed of leveling compound. He did say he would do it next morning, but he seemed too much in "rush and finish mode"...like a doctor. And he thought it would only take a minimal amount of "top n bond" that he had, but which didn't seem enough to me. I ended up using 1.5 bags of leveling compound that night.

Lastly, next day he dropped the steel tool for screwing down the drain and acted like it was long gone and didn't even attempt to get it out. (I retrieved it myself later with a flexible reacher/magnet).

"...it's not uncommon for a dozen nonlicensed workers at an offshore facility to complete major maintenance - such as engine changes, structural repairs, and flight-systems overhauls - overseen by one certificated mechanic."
I don't see the point here. Granted, they may not be licensed in this country but the United States is certainly not the only country that flies or maintains commercial jets. And there are many international carriers with much better safety records then what we have right here. I hope you're not equating an aircraft maintenance facility to a sweat shop where 10 year old kids are cranking out sneakers for 39 cents a month wages. Do you really think the manufacturers of these multi million dollar jets would allow some coffee bean picking yahoo to perform complex labor?

We constantly see posts describing horror stories about GC & Subs but has anyone bothered to ask why the problems occurred?

Castoff summed it up in one line yet no one seemed to notice'

"If you have lots of work, then you can afford to be selective. However, the opposite is "beggars can't be choosers".

Truer words were never stated, if you have lots of work you can afford to be selective....

Now for the rest of the story as Paul Harvey would say:

Speaking solely for the Plumbing trade for a moment. In 1985 the U.S.Dept. of Labor reported that nearly 70% of all journeymen plumbers in the USA were within 10 years of retirement age and the government asked that all plumbers make a concerned effort to enroll members in a bona fide Apprenticeship program immediately to insure we could continue to maintain an adequate workforce. The government even went so far as to offer some very interesting monetary considerations to encourage the Apprenticeship program. Haaing been involved in the apprenticeship program allow me to share some of the results:

The overwhelming majority of those who apply for a job as a plumber are very anxious to get on a 40hr/wk payroll but the moment we mention they will also be required to attend night school for which we pay both tuition and books they refuse because we don't give them clock time for the class room.

Of those who do agree to attend the school 35% cannot pass the simple prerequisite math test based on 8th grade math.

A bona fide apprenticeship program is a four year program from which 70% of all applicants drop out within the first 6 months and by the end of the first year the drop out rate is nearly 90%. In fact, the number of initial applicants who actually complete the program is less than 5%.

The end result in that in an industry that is critically short of skilled employees you may rest assured that true plumbers are not sitting in the office with thier heels up waiting for the phone to ring.

Typically a residential plumbing job requires two men/women one or perhaps two days for rough-in followed by a three to four week wait, then two men/women for one to two days for the stack-out, pause for the other trades then one day for final trimout. Yet we must provide them a full 40hr week therefore we are constantly booking work 4 to 10 months in advance. In fact, I officially retired and turned my business over to my son 14 months ago and just two weeks ago he finally completed the work that I had on the books when i left.

Along comes a homeowner who waits till they already have their permits and begin ground breaking before they hit the phone book looking for a GC, plumber, electrician, framer, HVAC installers etc etc. From this they get a short list of contractors who are sitting by the phone and willing to take a job on short notice, then they sort through that list looking for the lowest bidder.

If i can offer no other advice in my lifetime please believe this. The time to start interviewing your contractors is the day you decide to build, even before you talk to your bank. The more lead time you can provide the better your chances of getting a good contractor. If you wait till the last minute you will be stuck sorting through those who for one reason or another simply can't stay busy, that should speak for itself.