AKgirl, I like the premise, but it won't work as an explanation for me. I've never stopped scooping out flour. I don't weigh, I don't sift, I don't spoon, I just scoop it out using the same one cup measuring cup that I've left in my flour canister for 3 decades or so.

I'm blaming the fat. Margarine/butter/shortening has a greater amount of water than it did before, I think, and that makes my cookies different. The TollHouse recipe I've used for 25+ years just isn't right any more. I'm blaming the butter.

Annie

I agree Annie. I never stopped "scooping" and I am using the same 1 cup measure in the flour canister that I got when I moved into my first apartment in college. And I think you are right about the water in the butter too. I made a batch of cookies using butter from a local farmer a few weeks ago and the texture was much better. Unfortunately, the farmer only offers salted butter so there is my trade off..... more water or more salt LOL!

I will try adding a little extra flour to try to compensate for the extra water in commercial butter.... And the boys will eat the results of my baking experiments no matter what they look like!

Alexa

If only it were that simple.... And I agree about the water in butter. If you ever have the opportunity to use an expensive European butter (Plugra, Kerrygold, etc.) or homemade butter, you'll notice the difference between them and American brands.

One thing we've gotten away from is test baking 2 or 3 cookies to see if the cookies have the baking quality we want, and then adjusting the dough accordingly. I also would suggest using 2 or 3 different size scoops to see if the amount of dough makes a difference in the finished cookie. This is especially good the first time you try a recipe.

Here are some other things that can go wrong.

1. Cookie dough was placed on a hot baking sheet.
2. Dough not chilled.
3. Dough too warm.
4. Incorrect oven temperature.
5. Incorrect form of fat used.
6. Fat too warm when creamed.
7. Flour not measured correctly, the wrong type of flour used for the amount of liquid in the recipe, the flour was too moist from absorbing moisture during storage, or too dry.
8. Freshness of the leavening.
9. How well the fat was creamed, and then how well the sugar was creamed into the fat.
10. The size of the sugar particles. (The finer the granulation, the less the cookie will spread and the larger the granulation, the more the cookie will spread.)

Even things like atmospheric conditions can affect baked goods, where the pan is placed in the oven, baking too many pans at once, too many cookies on the baking sheet, the size of the scoop we use, temperature and humidity in the kitchen, how long the dough sits at room temperature or whether it's well chilled and stored in the refrigerator when not in use, baking time, using old flour, how long the cookies were left on the baking sheet after they were removed from the oven, greased or ungreased baking sheet or parchment paper, size of the egg/s, accurate measurements of liquids.....

In all recipes that contain flour, the amount of flour is just a good (or bad) guess, and we need to go by the characteristics, or the "feel", of the dough. The next bag of flour you purchase may have more or less protein, be moister or drier, and you'll get an entirely different finished cookie than you did with the last bag using the same recipe. You can find changes just by using a new or different set of measuring cups since there aren't any manufacturing standards for them.

Flour is the main structure builder for most cookies. This happens when flour mixes with liquid and the proteins from the flour develop. Flour contributes to cookie attributes such as hard or soft. Each ingredient in the mixture has a cause and effect, or the alchemy of cookie textures.

Altering the type of flour can give different attributes. Even one or two tablespoons less or more can make a difference in whether a cookie spreads or puffs more.

If you normally use a National Brand All-Purpose Flour, such as Gold Medal or Pillsbury, and you switch to a Northern All-Purpose Flour, such as King Arthur or Robin Hood, the Northern flours have more protein and can significantly affect the cookie structure due to the additional protein absorbing more of the liquid. I remember the first bag of King Arthur All-Purpose I flour I tried was a baking nightmare because of the additional protein in the flour.

-Grainlady

grainlady, thanks for posting that list but a few questions.

Sugar particles, what can you do? Put them in a grinder?

Is it best to weigh the flour? If so, if the recipe doesn't give you the weight what do you do?

arkansas_girl, I never heard of spooning your flour into the cup. I struggled for years with a cookie recipe that first was great but then provided very flat thin cookies. It was just me but a friend had the same results. We tried for years to get the cookies we first made and loved. I will have to make them again as I'm not sure we ever determined the exact issues. I do think it had to do with the fact that I was using airbake pans at the time (no longer). My ingredients we not always the freshest as I didn't bake very often. I did also learn to chill the dough and the cookie sheet.

I'll have to dig that recipe out and give it another try.

OK but the only different thing that I did in this recipe is scooped the flour instead of spooning.

I never chill any of my cookie recipes. I made these on two different days with totally different weather. I used my same old cookie sheets. Just plain old unbleached all purpose flour and cheap store brand butter and sugar. Used my hand mixer to cream the sugar and butter but used a wooden spoon and my hands to stir in the rest of the ingredients because it was so stiff I needed to use my hands for the chips. Same 375 temp in oven. All I know is my dough was way stiffer than normal.

Maybe you all should try to add a bit more flour to compensate for too much water in the butter. In an old cookbook I have, they DO say to do a test cookie and if it spreads too much that you need more flour.

I'll try and remember to update if the next time I make them if they spread out too much.

debrack, spooning the flour into your cup is the correct way to measure flour...apparently.

As for measuring flour, different cookbooks or recipes use different methods, and I try to follow the method the cookbook indicates. My Dorothy Greenspan book says to fluff the flour, then scoop. I just noticed for the first time that my King Arthur book says to fluff the flour, then spoon into the cup. Of course, in both cases, you level the flour off with a knife. King Arthur does actually recommend scaling the flour and other ingredients, but if you don't have the scale, then the above mentioned method is what they suggest. So, there's another variable.

I saw an episode of America's Test Kitchen in which they melted the butter to cook out the water. I've only used that method once in a browned butter chocolate chip recipe I tried and loved. I haven't made it often because it was a complicated recipe with lots of steps, and I usually don't have that much time to devote to making cookies, no matter how delicious the recipe is.

Sally

debrak2008-

Sugar particles - You can find extra fine (aka super fine) granulated sugar in some stores - it's often used for candy making and dissolves quickly. It comes in a box that looks like old 1/2-gallon milk cartons (before plastic jugs were used for milk), but also in bags. You can take your regular sugar and put it in a blender or food processor and make a finer particle. That's how you make powdered sugar from granulated, in a pinch....(although most powdered sugar has a starch in it - such as corn starch - to keep it free-flowing). Keep in mind, sugar will dull your blades if you blend it very often.

If you have ever switched to "natural" sugar like turbinado, or other types that have a larger grain than regular granulated sugar, you can notice a difference in baked goods due to the size of the sugar. Larger grains don't measure like small grains and you'll get less sugar measuring large grains in a cup. That's also what happens when you measure fine-grained salt compared to large-grained Kosher salt. It also takes much longer for large grains to break down and get incorporated when creaming it with fat.

Best way to measure.... I tend to respect the recipe. If it was designed for cups, I'll use cups. If it was scaled, I'll use weights.

Weighing ingredients is always going to give you more consistent results. Why? Because a weight is a constant that never changes - whether that's dry weight or liquid weight. Have 4 people measure one cup of flour in their measuring cup, then weigh those amounts. They may vary as much a 1-2-ounces, depending on their cups (which have NO standards in the U.S. for sizing), as well as the technique they use for cupping the flour.

Trying to convert a recipe to weights can be a HUGE headache, and I'd avoid the trouble it takes. King Arthur Flour recipes generally have both types of measurements when you go to their web site, which is a nice feature. As well as being tested recipes.

Not having a kitchen scale is one of my kitchen pet peeves. As the old saying goes, "a pound is a pound the world 'round". It becomes a bit tricky when we can't weigh a pound (or other measurement).

When a recipe calls for a pound of pecans and we try to convert that to cups, my nifty yield equivalencies chart says 4-4-1/2 cups (halves) or 3-3-3/4 c. chopped. It's easier and more accurate to weigh those pecans.

Shredded cheese is another tricky conversion. Eight ounces (weight) of shredded cheese is an exact measure. When we try to convert that to cups it's around 2 to 2-1/2 cups. Did you pack your cups of shredded cheese or did you only lightly fill them? Is there a difference when you measure finely shredded or coarsely shredded cheese? You may have anywhere between 6- and 10-ounces just by how you fill the shredded cheese into the cup.

But to add to the measuring problem, there aren't any standards for measuring cups and there aren't any standards for how much a cup of flour weighs. And different types of flour weigh different amounts per cup. Whole wheat flour weighs more due to the germ and bran in the flour. Sifted flour measures differently in a cup than unsifted.

The standard method for measuring flour in a cup is to stir (aerate) the flour first (even though flour is pre-sifted these days, it can still pack somewhat during storage), spoon the flour into the cup (over-filling it), then level with a metal spatula or straight-edged knife (on the edge, not the flat portion). The dip and scoop method (dip the cup into the bag/canister and slide it up the side to level the cup) or dip and shake it to level it, actually packs more flour into the cup. Tapping the cup, either on a flat surface or with the spoon or straight-edge causes the flour to settle, which can increase the amount of flour.

Try measuring flour in a cup using these different methods, then weigh the flour you measured in the cup, and you'll see how much the amounts differ.

You might also try measurements in your different measuring cups. My mother had a beautiful set of decorative measuring cups, but they didn't have as much volume in them, and when she used them her recipes were altered or often failed. That set of measuring cups made in China from the Dollar Store may not even be close to having the same volume as my stainless steel cups. This is also why it's suggested you not switch from one set of measuring cups to another set in the middle of a recipe.

-Grainlady

Sally, I make America's Test Kitchen's recipe with the melted browned butter. Made it regularly & the first couple of years it was always perfect, just what I wanted. Lots of times I make a lot & freeze some into a roll for slice & bake cookies. The last year, something has changed. Not sure what, I use the same ingredients. I've tried using a better brand of butter, but still not right. They flatten out more than they did originally. I've been watching this thread to get some hints. I'll be making some more soon, going to try adding a bit more flour.

I don't make cookies but when i did years ago it was the cookie sheet. Got way to hot. They are steel. Not good for cookies. The two pack said 'cookie' sheet but not good for cookies at all. Classic TollHouse. They spread and got a bit brown but still a nice soft center.
Looked homemade, lol.

Seems the best solution is to do a test and adjust if not cooking properly. Find out what works and take notes. We have had bread failures for the same reasons.
Our ovens are different, moisture, different flours, all said by grainlady above. I even use different sugars now so i'm sure i would make a mess.

Nothing like a good cookie when i have one. Seems to be a few birthdays a week at work and sugar comes in from bakeries all over town, so i get a mini fix way too often, so i rarely bake sweets at home.

I have to agree with Annie and Alexa. I'm a scooper too.

I prefer a flatter , chewy cookie. LIke Jacques Torres Chocolate Chip cookie. I don't like a fater, crispy or cakey style cookie.

~Ann

I was taught to spoon flour if I wasn't going to sift it... in home ec class in 1997! So I've always done it and I can't make most cookies (snicker doodles never get me trouble, but oatmeal and chocolate chop are awful!)

My cookes get really thin and stick to the parchment.... I tried to make carrot cake cookies for the last sit and sew I attended and they did that... they were a disaster... (not to mentoon the same day I dropped my beloved vintage food processor that my grandmother gave me when I was 16 on the floor and broke it to smithereens.... had to spend 50 bucks and buy the same one on Ebay because I loved it so much)... I was so upset with two disasters in the same day I went to the grocery store and brought a pound cake for my contribution that night!

Anyway, I was talking to the ladies at the sit and sew and one of them said that I probably didn't use enough flour... so from now on I will scoop instead of spoon!

I was taught to spoon flour if I wasn't going to sift it... in home ec class in 1997! So I've always done it and I can't make most cookies (snicker doodles never get me trouble, but oatmeal and chocolate chop are awful!)

My cookes get really thin and stick to the parchment.... I tried to make carrot cake cookies for the last sit and sew I attended and they did that... they were a disaster... (not to mentoon the same day I dropped my beloved vintage food processor that my grandmother gave me when I was 16 on the floor and broke it to smithereens.... had to spend 50 bucks and buy the same one on Ebay because I loved it so much)... I was so upset with two disasters in the same day I went to the grocery store and brought a pound cake for my contribution that night!

Anyway, I was talking to the ladies at the sit and sew and one of them said that I probably didn't use enough flour... so from now on I will scoop instead of spoon!

I didn't mention the type cookie sheet I use. I use those big heavy type that have the one inch or so high sides...the restaurant style sheet pans. I also use parchment paper.

You need sheets with no sides. DD learned that from her cake boss cookbook. I think it does make a difference.

I'm actually seeing total 'flats' this fall. At our local market last night they had crispy flat cookies.
Clearly less flour and more butter and sugars. Nice mix of nuts, fruits and dark chocolate.
They tasted as good as they looked.
My mother made cookies last weekend that just did not make the cut and not worth the calories, if they even had any. Cake-like and bland. Some oats and a raisin, lol. I'm guessing she is cheating out the butter and sugar. And under done. That is not a cookie.
They tasted just as bad as they looked.

Try some crispy flat cookies from Tate's Bake Shop and you might well reconsider your opinion of flat cookies! ;-)

(Tate's is in the Hamptons but apparently sells nationally.)

Here is a link that might be useful: Tate's Bake Shop

debrak, I've heard that but these latest cookies that turned out perfect were baked in my sided sheet pans.