Beez: It certainly isn't my intention to make my neighbors fearful. Our block had numerous Pitties, Shepherd, and Chow mixes. I do not live in fear, and I'm sorry - but other people's ignorant fears and suspicions are not high on my priority list.

I happened on the CraigsList ad placed by a member of the rescue group by chance. I should consider myself a sad specimen if I was to disregard adopting AmStaffs [a breed I had the 'okay' on at the time] based on the way they look.

Vickie: I did not have a witness, as it was a phone call. I had thought about that.... *but* when I go tomorrow, it will certainly be brought up. If she does not deny she said those things, I will have a witness present to verify her admitting to stating I *could* own that specific breed in the house and I am not above threatening these people. I hope to resolve this peacefully, but if tomorrow's meeting doesn't go well, I'll call the home owner himself. If that goes badly, maybe we'll have to get drastic.

Interesting. From what I understand, the generic term "pitbull" refers primarily to the American Staffordshire Terrier, no? A non-dog person might hear "American Somethingorother Terrier" and say, "sure that's okay, it is not a pitbull, it is a little terrier." Later, of course, they learn that it IS a pitbull, and you get mad at them? If an AmStaf is not a pitbull, what is? Admit it, you knew that all along and are now trying to cry foul because you got them to temporarily okay your choice of dogs before they learned the truth. Give up. No way did you look at that mouth and jaw in Ladybug's picture and not guess that she might be classed as a pitbull.

You don't have a legal case - the owner can forbid any dog he wants. The lady made a mistake out of ignorance, but as Nancy says, the Staffordshire Terrier IS the "pit bull" - so if you didn't know that either then you're just as guilty of ignorance. You're very lucky that, as a renter, you're allowed to have dogs at all. You should be happy for that.

Nancy - I made it perfectly clear the day I found the first dog I liked as to the lineage of AmStaffs. I went as far as to offer to e-mail a picture. The animal shelter tried to call. The woman told me that day on the phone that if the breed wasn't listed as 'PIT BULL' the animal would be allowed. I was positive at the end of that conversation [and still am] that there was NO possible way for her to picturing a small ratchaser. I even asked her if she was positive when she suggested it was perfectly acceptable... and again at the end, "So, you're sure I can really go get him? That's excellent!" I certainly will not admit to any wrongdoing, because there isn't any to admit.

Gina - thanks for the comment. I'm aware that the owner can stipulate whatever he chooses, I used to work in property management. I'm interested to hear what the owner has to say. As for my ingnorance of the breed, I can assure you that I am not a walking encyclopedia, nor would I ever bring two animals into my home I didn't know anything about. I consider myself to be more responsible than that. Responsible enough to ensure that the lease we signed did allow for pets [med-large dogs, specifically]... so, I don't consider that 'luck' - more like due diligence. If the lease hadn't allowed for pets, it wouldn't have been signed, and we'd be living somewhere else by now.

"other people's ignorant fears and suspicions are not high on my priority list."

That may be all fine and dandy for you to make a comment like that~ But pit bulls are usually not allowed for GOOD reasons.
WE had an apartment building that didnt except pits either,but some people disregarded this rule and had them anyways.

I was walking from my car one day with my 6 month old baby in my arms,when a owner of three pits lost control of the leashes as they went wild and started chasing after me!!!

I ran screaming as fast as I could and just as i was coming around the corner,my mom saw what was happening and hurried up and opened the door and let me in as we SLAMMED the door shut right on their faces.As we slammed the door they were in the progress of lunging toward my baby's head.
I think all the time what could have happend to my baby if I didnt make it fast enough.
I also threatened to file a law suit if the apartment complex didnt do anything about the people that had them there against the rules.

I'm not saying many of those type of dogs cant be the most loving dogs in the world.But too many people own them as a status symbol that they arent to be "messed" with and train them to be mean.
So dont be mad at the "ignorant,fearful" people,be mad at all the wanna bes who made pit bulls feared in the first place.

I also dont think you will get anywhere even if you confront the owner.

I'm not even allowed to own any kind of dog at all in the apartment where I live.It doesnt matter that right next to us and on the property people are walking them ALL DAY LONG.
I have written letters,made phone calls,and the answer is still No,no ,no.Not unless I'm legally blind.

So,if you want this particular dog,you will most likely have to move as one of the other posters suggested.Do your homework BEFORE you move in so you dont run into this problem again.

foosacub,

The breed that is recognized by the AKC as the "American Staffordshire Terrier" is regognized by the UKC as the "American Pit Bull Terrier". Many people do not know they are one and the same.

CoolMama: I'm sorry about your experience. I am sure you were terrified. I didn't mean to imply that I was angry with any one of my neighbors, just that if they fear my dogs without good reason, that's their problem. There's a good mix of breeds around here, though... and the neighbors I've met so far don't seem to have their head up their asses. There's a guy that walks our block with a Greyhound and Pit Bull.... the kids don't clear the streets, parents don't rush out to claim their children. It's actually quite uneventful. They just walk on by, barring an interesting smell near mailboxes.

I hope to confront the owner of the home about the incabability of the mgt. co. When we first moved in, the house and been 'cleaned throughout' - turns out that means just vaccuuming and has nothing to do with greasy stoves, spattered pantry, rusty sink, or ANYHTING ON THE SECOND FLOOR. Within a few days, we realized the dishwasher was in disrepair. Oh well, we thought - maybe they didn't know, we'll just report it. We did. I think we were almost 2 mo into that one before we could run our dishwasher. We're currently up to about a month and a half on the microwave. They've had repair people out twice. We've bought another until the broken one gets fixed. And now, they're changing their minds at will on a dog breed policy.

I understand the AmStaff/Pit Bull situation. THEY SHOULD HAVE 'RESEARCHED' BEFORE TELLING ME THEY WERE CERTAIN I COULD ADOPT A DOG WITH SUCH LINEAGE. I got the okay, found such dogs I wanted to adopt, went to this nice woman's house, etc, get home, writing out a check for the pet deposit - and then, no.

I think that you knew the am.staff were pits and you were counting on the manager to not recoginize the name when you said American Staffordshire Terrier. She is obviously not a dog person, most any dog person knows that an Am Staff terrier is a pit bull.

Not that I agree with the management policy, however I think there are plenty of rescue dogs that are available that will conform to your building managers preferences.

If you don't like it, move.

Joe - already covered that. I was *not* trying to get over on anyone. If I was going to be sneaky about it, I'd already have dogs, and they'd be none the wiser.

Did you not realize yourself that AmStaff mixes are pit mixes?

I think it's wonderful you want to rescue two dogs. I'm sure the shelter would be thrilled for you to pick out two other dogs that conform to your landlord's conditions.

LOL! You can't look at those dogs and not think "pit bull". There were some other really sweet looking pups in that line-up, Foosacub...would you consider a couple of them? If not, when is your lease up? Is there any way they would hold these dogs until you can find a new place to live? Especially since it seems noone has shown an interest in Cisco (if I read it correctly), you might have a chance going that route. Good luck...

Keep in mind that if many people were to argue with the management, they may get fed up and not allow any dogs at all. It's rare for any rental to allow dogs of any kind. I bet the management will look up breed names after this, before they ok one they aren't familiar with. I wouldn't know by the other name that they were pitbulls and would've made the same mistake.

Anyone with a computer can go to any number of AmStaff sites and see that this breed is the classic pitbull. I think that you tried to pull one over on the landlord.

I am a landlord. I own a rental home in another city; it's managed for me by a real estate firm there. My original stipulation was "no dogs", but as time went by various renters sneaked in some nice dogs. The property manager told me that it was easier to find renters for single homes if I would permit pets. Fine. Then on our last visit back to check the property, we drove up and discovered a "Danger. Pit Bulls." sign in the front window. We were not allowed into the house until the pits had been secured outside and couldn't enter the backyard until they were secured inside. I threw a fit. Told the manager that those dogs were to be removed and also the sign. It was a month to month lease and the renters chose to move. Good. Now we are enforcing the "no dogs" rule rigidly, which means that some nice old lab or pug cannot live in the house. We keep the house in good condition, and at a fair price, so it's an easy rental.

I am certain that had those pits attacked someone, some clever lawyer would have found a way to hold me liable. The dogs also wrecked the back yard, but that's another story.

I will never understand why someone chooses a pit, aka AmStaff or whatever, when everyone in the world knows its reputation. IMO the desire is to send a message - "I own this dog, so don't mess with me". Fairly anti-social.

I have no sympathy whatsoever, not for this breed (which I wish would be banned, as it is in France and Israel and various other countries), and not for someone who prevaricates to the landlord.

Guys, I know there's plenty of other dogs needing good homes, and it's likely that I'll be adopting some of them in the near future. It's just not the point for me.

As a matter of fact, AmStaffs/Pits have never held any sort of 'special appeal' for me. I'm a Great Dane kind of person [but the significant other says 'no horses in the house'] :P
It happens that I got attached to two wonderful animals that I had every expectation of bringing home to stay.

If it didn't cost an obscene fortune and I didn't love the house, I'd definitely consider moving.

Also, in my search for lease/rent property in Austin, I actually didn't come across many (if any, now that I think of it) that did not allow pets. A few had weight restrictions, and almost all had fees, but that stuff's standard. The Austin area is known to be dog-friendly in general. There are numerous dog parks, and most of the restaurants with outdoor decks allow pets.

I agree with you, rather. I think this will likely initiate an official change in policy. It would be wise for them to provide a tangible list of restricted breeds, as opposed to anything verbal. I should have gotten their initial agreement in writing, but I honestly wasn't expecting that they didn't have their bases covered on the dog breed issue. They manage a slew of houses, and ought to be better versed on the specifics of their own rules.

It did say Ladybug was a boxer/Amstaff mix, you could of told them it was a boxer mix and they would of been none the wiser:) well, until they got a look at her, *sigh* I know that isn't the right thing to do though. I had no clue the AmStaff was the pit bull, never heard that before. If you are into the look of the Pit Bull have you considered trying to find Boxer's at the rescues?? They have a similar look, you can find them with huge chests, those have a real blocky look to them. I know it sucks to find a pet you really want, take the time to get to know them just to be told you can't have them (been there done that)

Sable: Sorry about that. Sounds like you had some first-class asses in your rental home. Seems a shame to me you let them ruin it for all the other potential tenants, but that's your perogative... and if the house is fairly priced and in good shape, it ought to rent out just fine, anyway... and that way you've got your peace of mind.

It sits fine with me that you've refused your dispensable sympathy.

Also undesired and regrettably false is your conjecture of me 'pulling one over' on the landlord. This is not the case, as I stated before: if I wanted to be a sneak, I'd have the dogs already - I'm the only house in this specific area that they manage, and we've not once had a visit.

I understand you have no reason to believe what I tell you now, but really - if I've asserted this twice already, did you think your epressing of your personal opinion would convince me to confess to my wrongdoing? or are you so prideful in your obvious wit that you were compelled to share it with all of us?

Response of any kind is unnecessary. It seems you've said your peace. Should you feel the need to be antagonistic, please do take it elsewhere.

I can understand your landlords position. I am sure there are many sweet Staffordshire terriers, but there are also bad ones. Hawaii will not even let them in the state under any circumstances. That goes for all bull terriers. There is a reason for this. This is a case where a few bad apples spoils the fun for all the good apples. I think you need to understand and accept your landlord's decision.
Lois

Micke: Yeah, I'd rather not manipulate my way into it... puts a bad taste in my mouth. IT's a shame, though. These are VERY good mutts. LadyBug with her mouth open is hilarious to me. When she closes that giant trap, it seems she looks much smaller. LOL. She's very hands-on, too - I guess that's the Boxer coming out in her. She taps on you when she's ready to be pet [like, if you're not already petting her :P].

It's a public forum and one should expect a variety of opinions to be expressed, particularly when discussing this breed. Calling a pitbull by its AKC name does not make it "not" a pitbull.

I just find it hard to have sympathy for you becuase you were told that you could not have a "pit bull", so instead you ask "Can I have a staffordshire terrier?".

It would be similar to someone being told their lease says they cannot have a snake, so they ask can I have a rainbow boa instead, assuming the landlord doesn't know that a rainbow boa is a snake. Your logic is flawed.

I feel bad for the dogs, because I am sure they could have used a good home, but I don't really have any sympathy for you, sorry. :-(

foosacub I haven't read all the posts but I just wanted to add my 2 cents. Insurance is a big factor as to why your condo will not alllow these breeds.

One other important fact to keep in mind is that you can NEVER trust a pit not to fight with another dog. I'm very surprised that the rescue group will adopt them out together. Often times keeping two pitbulls together is asking for trouble unless you are there to supervise at all times. When you leave to go to work, store, etc. one of them would have to be crated or kept apart or you could come home to one dead dog. It sounds harsh but it is very true.

I adore pits and have yet to meet a human aggressive one. With that said this is one breed of dog I know that I don't have what it takes to own one.

Below is a great link to check out-

Here is a link that might be useful: Pitbull rescue central

I've followed this thread with some interest because we rent out a small single family home with a fenced yard. The tenant has a cat. When she moved in, her lease specified the cat by name and she paid a pet deposit.

The lease states that she cannot have another pet without written permission. If she were to want a dog, we'd be very careful. As dog owners ourselves, we are sypmathetic, but there is no way on earth we'd allow pit bulls or a pit bull mix.

The American Staffordshire Terrier was officially recognized by the AKC in 1936. I put their breed standard at the end of this message.

The American Pit Bull Terrier is a bulldog-terrier mix, therefore it is NOT the same as an AmStaff. This is a breed standard for the APBT:
http://www.pitbulllovers.com/american-pit-bull-terrier-breed-standard.html
The AKC will probably never recognize the APBT.

To call the dogs the same is an insult to both breeds. They were bred for different purposes and to someone who knows both breeds, are easily differentiated.

Here is a link that might be useful: AKC breed standard American Staffordshire Terrier

Actually AKC American Staffordshire Terrier and UKC American Pitbull Terrier are basically the same dog. The slight difference in looks can probably be attributed to being bred for different purposes for the last 50 years or so but if you trace early pedigrees for the two breeds you will find a number of the same dogs in both breeds backgrounds.

Lisa

foosa - how fortunate to be able to have a dog in an apartment! I sympathize, it is frustrating to like an animal and then find it is not acceptable to the landlord. I agree that pits are discriminated against. Fortunately, they were negated before you paid the adoption fee and took them home. The LL could then state he made a mistake, and they would have to go. That would be worse.

Best of luck finding a dogger! And thank you so much for adopting!

I looked at the link,but honestly to me,I couldnt tell a difference between this dog and a pit bull. They have the same heads and body builds.

I do understand you bonding with these dogs and feeling cheated. I also agree that there are bad apples who ruin it for everyone.
I also agree with the poster that said these dogs almost always fight each other.

A family member had a pit that they raised from the time he was a puppy with an older dog. YEARS of being together and one day the pit killed the older dog for really no apparent reason. The pit wasnt even a mean dog either,just HYPER.
I even loved him and would hold him and pet him when he was a pup.
The poster who stated about the insurance was right too. The family member who had this pit could not get home owners insurance because of the pit. They said they would have to get rid of the dog before they would insure the house.

I hope you do find a dog that you like and will be a member of your family. Sorry the apartment complex are being such !@#^&*,but if it makes you feel better I have been without a stove/oven for two weeks now and have been eating out alot!

Best of luck to you.

Well, if you were serious about adopting them and had disclosed that you were a renter, the majority of rescue groups would have required a letter from your landlord permitting the placement.

Also, looks like the second one can not be an only dog. Perhaps he has separation anxiety; not something you want to deal with in an apartment where you have neighbors that would have to listen to the whining and barking. Perhaps start with one dog of another breed and see how you do with that. Then add a second when the first has settled in. I suspect that you're young and this is your first dog as an adult? Unless you plan to buy a home soon, you need to keep some flexibility in living arrangments, and having two dogs of a breed that is frequently not welcome could cause you to give the dogs back and they would need to be rehomed again. Not a good ending.

As datdog said, it all comes down to insurance policies. The apt. complex is probably ruled by their insurance as to dog breeds allowed on the property.

Also just wanted to add that if you've never owned one of these dogs I suggest you adopt only one. As posted earlier, I'm surprised the rescue would allow you to adopt two, knowing what a handful one is.

You haven't said what experience you have with dogs. This is a recipe for disaster (assuming you got them) if you are not a VERY experienced and capable dog owner. How many dogs have you owned, what breeds, did you complete dog obedience, etc. How could you be experienced and yet not know about this breed? I can't understand why you want to adopt two dogs from a difficult breed, that have been sent to rescue (meaning there were problems of some kind to start with). Get a nice labX instead.

Foosacub DidnÂt this part in CiscoÂs AST description raise any confusion and questions for you? Â "Doesn't he bring back old memories when the PIT BULL was the most popular family dog (the Little Rascals, Buster Brown...)"?

Well I'm sorry that you couldn't get the dogs. It sucks to feel like you were bonded to an animal and you get excited about bringing them home only to learn that you can't.

As for Pit Bulls, the only problem with Pit Bulls are the owners. Owners who don't bother to socialize their dogs as puppies, don't bother to teach their pet basic good manners, and don't bother to correct inappropriate behavior.

Pit Bull debates aside, if your landlord has insurance to cover dogs, certain dogs are considered more aggressive than others so he pays more insurance if he allows them, Each state is different. Here in PA the Great Dane is on the top 10 biting list for dog. I have 2, so you guessed it my homeowners insurance is higher. I could have told them I didn't have dogs but if they were to bite I would be up the creek without a paddle. The owner is only protecting himself. I think you should understand that and be thankful that you can get a dog at all. Check you state and find out what insurance companies cover. I think in the end though the landlord says no there isn't much you can do. It's his property after all...

A pitt bull is a general term for a number of breeds. They are called pitt bulls because they were bred for baiting bulls in the bull pitt. They were trained specifically to control a bull. Thus the name pitt bull. Sp a pitt bull can be several different breeds - including Staffordshire terrirors, American Bull dogs etc...

Okay, I held off on responding to this for a while, because I was furious at the ignorance exhibited by the members of this forum. But, I understand that lack of CORRECT information is not your fault, so here I go.

First of all, there is NO such thing as a "pit bull" There IS an American Pit Bull Terrier. Too often landlords say "no pit bulls" and end up banning a lot of dogs that are nothing of the sort.

Second of all, There IS a difference in the APBT and the American Staffordshire Terrier. They ARE bred for different things, they ARE bred with different standards. I, personally, own an APBT. It would be ridiculous for me to go around telling people I had an Amstaff. I would be lying. Please don't be ignorant enough to assume that because a dog has a boxy head that it is a "pit bull" Another breed that is commonly mistaken as "pit bull" is the Staffordshire Bull Terrier.

Because I want to point out how WIDELY discriminated the APBT is, PLEASE follow this link, and see for yourself how common the misconceptions are about what kind of dog you are actually banning.

http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html

Another thing, did you know, that the American Pit Bull Terrier represented the NATION as the most widely owned family dog up until only 15-20 years ago? Durning WWI the APBT was the nations mascot.

Another statistic for you.
In 2002, The american temperament testing society reported that APBT's passed with 82%!!! In comparison, Golded retrievers(family dogs!) passed at 77% Chihuahuas passed at 71% and Bichon Frise passed at 77%. Feel free to check those statistics at www.atts.org
In December of 2006 the APBT passed at 84% while Pomeranians(seemingly unharmful,right?) passed only at 75%
These numbers are not made up, and they are not disputable.

APBT's are NOT NOT NOT human aggressive.Even if they are being bred irresponsibly by BYB's (back yard breeders) you'd have to TRY to get human aggressive APBT's because it is simply NOT in their nature. Now yes, I will not deny my breed's characteristics. They have been known to be dog aggressive and that IS something that can be caught and managed before it is a problem. SOCIALIZE your dog and you won't have issues. Take them to a puppy class when they are young, have regular play dates with other dogs, and for god sakes EXERCISE YOUR DOGS, PEOPLE. & I don't mean throw the ball in the yard for 15 minutes, I mean WALK your dogs, they need exercise just like we do. The APBT was bred to do a job and NEEDS a job to do, even if its just carrying a backpack full of waterbottles on a walk.
Remember, the APBT is still at heart, a TERRIER. Pent up energy and anxiety is one of the BIGGEST reasons you will have dog attacks.

I am going to cut this short because I have work in half an hour, but please people, come on. Ignorance is NOT bliss, ignorance on your part only leads to a vicious cycle of misinformation and a negative sterotype of a wonderful breed. EDUCATE YOURSELVES.

"Pit bull" - and I use the parens for a reason, is no longer a designation for a particular breed, but a more generally-accepted designation for that type of dog, purebred or mixed.

You can post about whether or not these dogs are aggressive under "Animal Debates" or "Hot Topics" - you'll probably generate a 150-post thread.

You have invited the problem yourself by choosing dogs which are not acceptable to the owners of the property. Simply choose a dog which they find acceptable. There is a million of 'em out there.

Aeicullen

"Second of all, There IS a difference in the APBT and the American Staffordshire Terrier. They ARE bred for different things, they ARE bred with different standards. I, personally, own an APBT. It would be ridiculous for me to go around telling people I had an Amstaff. I would be lying"

Seriously, help me out here. You apparently know these two dogs well. Im trying to understand the difference standards thing and how these two dogs have diverged enough to be separate breeds and how it is ridiculous to pass off the APBT as a AST. They came from same stock and took a fork in the road with the name change by the AKC, but no other breed has been used to develop the AST. From what I understand, both dogs have nearly identical standards and only the size and colour vary. Sizes appear to overlap.

What screams pit over staff?

If there is such a difference between these two dogs why is it that the AKC doesnt then acknowledge the AST as a breed separate from the APBT?

Personally I do NOT CARE to educate myself about the breed or whatever~because I would never own an agressive dog.
If they werent aggressive,then they wouldnt be banned. I think about a million apartment complexes with lawsuits regarding these dogs would disagree with you.
The post was really about the OP not being able to have the dog in the first place. So,it really doesnt matter if they are the same or not.

Well you should care because it's the lack of education that has caused the breed specific ban on dogs be it apartment complexes, cities or whatever. I know dogs, dog breeds, dog breeders and dog genetics. And I know what makes an ethical, reputable breeder. Since 1963, my whole life has been spent in the dog world, breeding and showing Great Danes. The term Pit Bull is generic. There is no such legimitate breed. The term and breed specific legislation all over the US has hurt the AKC and Canadian Kennel Club recognized breeds. Am Staffs, Staffordshire Bull Terriers, Bull Terriers, Mini Bull Terriers all get a bad rap. So does the American Pit Bull Terrier. These dogs are not people aggressive. They can be dog aggressive. They are terriers. Has anyone ever gone to a dog show and watched a judge bring some Wire Fox or Smooth Fox or Scotties out to spar? All breeds of dogs we know today originated from other old breeds. Bull Mastiffs, Boxers, Bulldogs, to name a few, originally were used for bull baiting. I could go on and on. The point is that certain dog breeds are being banned because of non education. The pit bulls we hear about through the news mauling other dogs, people and children are mixed breed dogs lumped under the term pit bull because of what they look like. They are bred by people out to make a buck, people who attend illegial dog fights, people who don't know or care. I am not saying that just because a dog is pure-bred and AKC or Canadian Kennel recognized, it cannot maul or bite someone. Dog bites happen everyday with every breed. The majority of dogs purchased in the US do not come from the true fancy. They are products of puppy mills and high volume breeders sold through pet shops. Or they come from back yard breeders. And 95% of the time, they do not meet the breed standard in temperament or conformation. That's another whole ball of wax. I know this has gotten off the point of the original poster and I am sorry for that.

Jan

These dogs are not people aggressive. They can be dog aggressive.

Why would anyone want a dog aggressive dog?

Signed,
The woman who walks her dogs and carries citronella spray because of people who perpetuate dog aggressive dogs!

These dogs are not people aggressive. They can be dog aggressive.

Except that I know a couple of people who have been attacked by pit-bulls, amstaff mixes, whatever they are. For no good reason. I mean, one of my friends was walking through a park, came around the corner of some shrubs, and was latched onto by one of these dogs. She wasn't provoking the dog in any way.

Yeah,they arent people aggressive...that's why they tried to eat my baby's head!!! You can wrap it up in a nice little bow all you want~they are dangerous. If you honestly think ALL these apartment complexes and cities are wrong and you are right,then you have some sort of supriority complex.

as I said,I'm sure SOME of the dogs can be nice and if they come from a breeder and are raised correctly,which is normally not the case. MOST people that have these dogs Do not get them from breeders,and they dont take care of them~HENCE THE BAN.

Most of these dogs and owners go thru life with no problems caused by the dog. You never hear about the dog with a responsible owner who doesn't let it roam the neighborhood and takes it to obedience classes. It's not good news and nobody wants to hear about the Pit that happens to be a search and rescue dog. They get better ratings with the story about the dog that attacked somebody.
And what about some other breeds that at some point in their development were fighting breeds. The Akita may not suprise you that it was a fighting dog. So was that little wrinkley darling the Shar Pei. But how many would guess that the loveable little Boston Terrier is also of Bull and Terrier heritage and was a fighter at one point in its history.
As far as who would want a dog aggressive dog, how do you know that you are not going to get one when you bring home a Lab, Shih Tzu or any other breed. You can get a dog or people aggresive dog in any breed or mix there of. And even if you are not a fan of the Bully breeds and would never own one yourself you should be concerned enough to educate yourself on the breeds with FACTS, not everybody says so, so it must be true info. Personally I don't dislike them but they are not a breed I would chose with the possible exception of the American Bulldog, and it's because as a rule they are not large enough for my taste. But if you manage to ban the Bully breeds then what breed is going to be the next dog of choice for the irresponsible owners, fighters and gang bangers to get their hands on? In the past it's been German Sheperds and Dobermans. Maybe next it'll be Labs, there's plenty of them out there and I can tell you from experience there are some nasty ones. If you let them take ONE breed there will be no end to it.

Lisa

I'm not saying they should be outlawed all together. I think people who own houses and are responsible,should have the option. They shouldnt complain about higher insurance costs though.

I DO NOT think they should be allowed in APARTMENTS though,which is what this post is really about. People in apartments are forced to live in confined areas together,and there is no way of being sure the dog has a "responsible owner" and is properly taken care of.So the other people in the bulidings should not have to be PUT AT RISK for someone else's negligence.
And,as far as taking all breeds,where I live (in an apartment) they already have.No dogs allowed at all.

I totally agree that rules or laws that ban specific breeds are stupid and unfounded. But remember the lease doesn't list a specific breed, it said dangerous or viscous, and the manager trying to be helpful, listed a few dogs that she thought would be banned. Am Staff terriers are bull terriers and are typically included in the pit bull bans, often times because its hard to distinguish between the breeds, especaily if they are crosses and part bull terrier, etc. etc.

NOt that I think its right or even support such a ban... but simply the landlord has some rules, albeit vague and unfounded... but its their property and the renters need to comply or live somewhere else.

The vagueness of rule is more complaint worthy than the manager being confused and back tracking on what was said.

Whether AmStaffs and APBT are the same breed is obviously a matter of debate. I did not know where the management company stood on this, that is why I called to be sure. I explained the lineage. Offered to send a picture and commentary from the rescue org. The woman told me that if the dog's paperwork didn't say P-i-t B-u-l-l, go ahead and good luck. (I got the impression that this was the stipulation of the insurance company, and took her word for it that I could get that breed.) Not having a specific list to start with is just ridiculous. I assure you they'll have one in the near future. :)

The backtracking in itself struck me as completely unprofessional. I have a phone conference scheduled for tomorrow. I'll update here, for those of you keeping up with the thread.

To clear up some things I caught while skimming down the line here:
*these dogs have been socializing with eachother for a long time now... it is actually preferred that they are adopted together, as they are fairly well attached to eachother. :)
*I do live in a house, so wall-sharing neighbors isn't an issue.

-Thanks for all the well wishes and well-spoken responses. I'll keep you guys updated.

-For those of you that prefer to remain ingnorant: I've always had a 'learning streak' and strive to better understand most things... so it is hard for me to grasp that you prefer to remain this way, because it is a nature so very different from my own... but hey - live and let live. Best of luck to you.

Sorry it took so long for an update, but it took us that long to get ahold of the property management co.

Below is an email that I just sent to the foster 'mom':

Donna,

Sorry I have not been in touch, but we didn't have anything to report, anyway. They dodged us for quite a while, but earlier this week we caught them while they were in the office. (After receiving the following e-mail:
Tiffany:

You cannot have any of the following breeds of dog:

Pitt Bulls
Dobermans
Chows
German Shepards
Rottweillers

You may have breed mixes of any of these dogs provided the mix is something other than another breed on the list. You may have a Lab/Pitt mixed breed but not a Pitt/Chow mix.

If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Sincerely,
Debbie Wehner
Office Manager
Reliable Property Management
512-732-8388 x129
512-327-3283 Fax
>>>>>

Terry has informed us that we can NOT have any breed OR mix thereof on the aforementioned list. I gave them hell at our little sit-down, advising them that inconsistencies regarding rules and boundaries such as these give a very unorganized, half-assed impression of their business practices. (...and I had to mention that they ought to research a breed before giving the o.k. on it... and while they're at it, they might learn to spell them correctly.)

We've been pretty upset, as we were quite looking forward to bringing Cisco and Ladybug home!

Spiteful humor (though I'm not proud of it) seems to be my preferred method of dealing. I found two Bull Mastiffs at Town Lake. I'm almost hoping their parents don't come and find them, so we can take them home. :)

If you know of someone looking for a property to lease, do steer them away from these shmucks. You'd be doing them a great favor.

Sorry to send bad news :(
Tiffany

...and there you have it.

Well, I think it is sad that the world has come to this. All because of a bunch of ignornant people (nobody here)
getting a breed they dont know a lick about, and dont give them what they need. I know Germany has a ban on many dog breeds including Dobies and German Shepherds...Sad, sad, sad. I know of incredibly responsible owers of dogs which are under the bully breeds and their dogs could not be more gentle and well behaved, and yet I know of dog owners who hae under 30 pound breeds (mostly accepted here in the apartment world) which are out of control yappy and aggressive towards any other animal or person. I know of a person who takes pitts out of the ring and works them into search and rescue dogs - this takes a tremendous amount of energy and dedication, and those dogs never go back to being aggressive towards anyone because they are now in the right environment with jobs to do and people to save. I had a heck of a time getting an apartment for my mastiff mix, i had to include a tremendous amount of paperwork including refs from my local humane society's behaviorist, It may be this is out of the managers hands due to insurance regluations. Tho I would ask if she might be willing to work with you on this. If so, I suggest your take your dog into a behaviorist to get it evaluated, and have the behaviorist write the management a letter. You never know what might work. I do think it is a shame there are biases towards these dogs, I also undrestand peoples concern. I know for a fact that many people in southern California bought bully breeds when the Night Stalker was on the prowl, they wanted cheap 24 hour protection - when the guy was caught, alot of people just opened up the gates to their yards and let their dogs (many with behavioral problems) go out to live for themselves in the street. I relaize this is a huge problem, but I fear for the future of these breeds deemed dangerous because they are not brought up in an environment where they get what they need. Any dog can turn viscious in an unhealthy environment or due to health problems...I dont like debating thsi because so many people are so passionate about this - for and against. I wish you luck in your search for a resolution with your dogs, and hope you can find someone or some place willing to work with you. Personally I think every dog should be evaluated on its personality, not its breed.

Well, I hope that if these Mastiff mixes have (good) 'parents' somewhere, they are retrieved and neutered.

Otherwise, I shouldn't have a problem adopting them. My application has been approved for a while, and Mastiffs aren't on the property management's list of aggressive breeds. (Now, if they try to change their minds on that one, I'll just have to tell them to kiss my butt. Mastiffs are not aggressive.) They're Bull Mastiff mixes, to be more precise. They're of fair size, though they appear to be a little underweight... they're both brindled and positively gorgeous (to me, anyway.) :)

The bigger/darker of the two does have 'cherry eye', though. I'd have to have him taken in for that, if the shelter didn't have it cared for while having him neutered.

I think they have until Monday to be claimed.

Oh, I know this is a bit off-topic, but I had to tell you guys: they finally had a repair guy come pull out the microwave. THANK GOD we hadn't been using that thing. The interior of it was absolutely coated in grease and had spots of mold/mildew all over it. (Don't know how something like that happens to a two-year-old microwave...) The repairman took it with him, saying that it will likely be condemned. I hope so, because I will not be staying in the house where that thing is mounted again.

(Sorry - gross... but clickable! :])

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foosacub I know you are upset but I'd be thanking the company 1000X over for allowing you to have ANY big dog. When my husband and I moved (many years ago) we ended up having to buy because we could not find a condo or apartment that would accept our 120 pound dane mix.

Please keep in mind if you adopt these two mastiff mixes that it WILL be hard to find a place to rent with two huge dogs should you ever move from your current place. Best of luck.