I grew up in New Jersey....and we had some great bagels from that guy with the pickle barrel...
And I have had some very good bagels in Chicago.....and in Philadelphia
But I really do think New York bagels are the best...Carnegie Deli...and their lox...Oh! My!!

Thanks for pointing that out Duane......

We had Bagels at Murray's in Phila., with Lox's and Cream Cheese. Great !!!
I did a little research on NY Bagels last week.
It was said that the tread towards sweeter Baked Goods, in the US, had a little influence on Bagels.

Ed Levine had a taste test Survey of about 10 top Bagel Makers in NYC.
I think the Bagel Hole on 7 th St. was #1.
- - - - - - -

Here are a couple I just took out of the freezer, that
I made last week.
Just plain, no Sesame Seeds, with a subtle sweetness.

Use the 10 inch rope method, of shaping them.
Boiled in water ( Well water , not NY )
This how we like them.
Lou

Well you know that I'm going to have to agree with Sharon. LOL!

Since I don't live in New York or Montreal I had to bake my own Bagels

This is a recipe I've used for years. This is not a sweet dough.

If you need some help on how to shape a bagel I've put together a Pictorial.

Home Cookin Chapter: Recipes From Thibeault's Table

Bagels
======

Source: Hors d'oeuvres Cook Book.

I have typed it exactly how the recipe is printed in the book. If you have a bread machine or kitchenaide by all means use it to do most of the kneading. I always like to finish the kneading by hand. You can also make these in to normal size bagels. I have used this recipe for over 20 years. I have tried other recipes but this is my favourite one.

2 cups warm water
2 packages active dry yeast
3 tablespoons sugar (I adjust this to 1 tablespoon)
1 tablespoon salt
about 5 3/4 cups all-purpose flour, unsifted
3 quarts water with 1 tablespoon of sugar
Cornmeal
1 egg yolk beaten with 1 tablespoon water
about 2 tablespoons poppy or sesame seeds.

Stir together water and yeast in large bowl of electric mixer; let stand 5 minutes to soften yeast. Stir in the Sugar and Salt. Gradually mix in 4 cups of the flour and beat at medium speed for 5 minutes. With a spoon, stir in about 1 1/4 cups more flour to make a stiff dough.

Turn out on a floured board and knead until smooth, elastic, and no longer sticky, (about 15 minutes); add more flour as needed to prevent sticking - dough should be firmer than for most other yeast breads.
Place in a greased bowl, cover, and let rise in a warm place until almost doubled ( about 40 minutes to 1 hour).

Punch dough down and divide into thirds. Set 2/3 of dough aside on a floured board; cover with clear plastic. form remaining 1/3 dough in a log and cut into 16 equal pieces.

to shape, knead each piece into small ball and poke thumbs through centre. With one thumb in hole (hole should be at least 1/2 inch) work fingers around perimeter, shaping ball into a small donut like shape about 1 1/2 inches in diameter. Place bagels on a floured board or tray
and let stand 20 minutes.

Bring water-sugar mixture to a boil in a 4 to 5 quart pan; adjust heat to keep it boiling gently. Lightly grease a baking sheet and sprinkle with cornmeal. Lift bagels carefully and drop into water (about 6 at a time) boil gently for 1 minute turning only once (30 seconds each
side). Lift out with slotted spoon and drain very briefly on paper towels, and place on baking sheet. Brush with 1/3 of the egg yolk glaze, sprinkle with seeds and bake in a 400 oven for 20 minutes or until richly browned. cool on racks.

Repeat with remaining 2/3 dough (you may need to punch it down before shaping,) working with 1/3 at a time. Makes 48 cocktail size bagels.

Note:

Here is what I did to make Onion Cheese Bagels:

I sauted some onions in butter just until tender. Not brown.

After the dough had risen, I divided it into three parts. I took one of the parts, flatten it out and topped with some of the onions and some grated three year old white cheddar. Then I formed a log and divided it into 6 parts. Then I just proceeded to make 6 bagels and let them rise for about 20 minutes. After they were boiled I brushed them with the
oil that the onions were cooked in and then topped them with some of the onions. The onions got a little more brown then I would have liked so next time I would wait until half way through baking before adding the onions. I sprinkled some grated cheddar on top about 5 minutes
before they were finished baking.

I can honestly say that the best bagel I ever had was a Montreal bagel! Yep! I had a friend who used to go to Montreal once a year and she'd bring me back bagels. I haven't had one in over 25 years but I still remember just how wonderful they were.

Wish I had some again.

My DH is a Montreal boy and all his connections swear by those from the St-Viateur bakery. Out here in the mid-continental boonies, decent bagels are hard to find. We have a bagel shop here run by a reputed former St-Viateur apprentice, but the location is difficult for us. In a pinch, we opt for Costco ones.

Ann, I haven't made your bagels in quite awhile. I think I need to put that on my to-do list this week! I love them -

Lori ;D

Ann T--

They look lovely, but they are not NY bagels. Too fat & fluffy looking. Hawk's look more like it, but still not quite. Picky, picky, picky.

Growing up in the NW and Pacific I always thought bagels supposed to taste like, well, breads! LOL Until I went to visit a friend in NY. His wife took me to a bagel shop to get freshly baked bagels. While waiting in line she asked what kind of bagels I would like and I said "blueberry". She looked at me for a second than laughed and said those were bagels, not muffins!

I was surprised that she had never heard of blueberry bagels before. That's what we used to get in a bagel store where you could buy a bag of 6 - 12 counts of assorted flavored bagels from onion to raisin cinnamon and of course blueberry (my favorite)!

I tried a famous NY bagel and it was pretty good. But again I am a small town girl and I certainly don't mind eating fluffy bread like bagels as long as they remind me of home! :-)

I'm sure Ann's bagels taste as good as the Mtl ones, but hers are prettier since she probably spends more time shaping them; Mtl bagels are thinner and not puffy. I guess a skinnier rope of dough with less rise would do that.

I finished my st viateur bagels yesterday. Dd lives closeby st viateur street so I usually ask her to grab a bag of fresh ones.

I'll chime in with a nod for the NY water having something to do with the success of the bagel.

We have a great little local Jewish deli... best bagels I've ever had here in PA. The difference from what I can see is the owner schleps back to his fathers deli in Brooklyn every few days with those huge water bottles to get them re-filled just to make the bagels. I can't say for sure that is the difference, but I can't deny that he has the best bagels in the area either!

Alexa

Ive always heard its the water and the same with pizza dough...I havent had many better in other states but that just my NY opnion lol.

What one considers a "good" bagel probably depends on what one is exposed to initially and also the types of bread you like. I abhor fluffy sweet bread, but I think bagels have changed as faster and cheaper techniques have entered the fray and bagels went from obscurity to mainstream. Obviously more people like the fluffier, sweet bagels so that's what you get in most places. And as fewer people experience a real bagel, the old techniques have died out. I don't know any bagel making secrets, but I doubt it is just the NY water. I know NY has a reputation for having great water, but off the top of my head, I don't even think NY water comes from around the city, I think it comes from upstate. It could be a treatment of the water common in NY. I grew up in a small town in MI, and no one had the slightest idea what a bagel was until the late 70's. Coming from a Jewish family background, I grew up on NY local bagels at relatives homes, and occasionally bagels my dad would bring home when he visited Detroit. There was a big bagel factory there but I don't know if it is still in operation. Those bagels were fantastic and tasted the same as NY bagels, so I am sure that the NY, Detroit and Montreal bakeries use the same techniques, which are probably somewhat secret, and also dying out. Too bad, but a lot of great food things are going extinct in our modern society.

A real bagel, like all great bread, is a workout to eat. It has distinct flavor, heft and chewiness, and a meaningful crust. Real bread is why Omar Khayam said all he needed to be happy in life was his sweetie, a loaf of said bread, and a jug of wine. And like true love, you can't cut corners and rush making real bread, it takes an investment in time, which is why I imagine it is a dying art. Time is money.

Leel:
Ann's Bagel's do look lovely. She spends a lot of time and care making them.
I think it is mostly personal choice, for Texture and Taste.
Some may try the most famous NY Bagel and Gag !!!
I like all of them , mostly, but I can't do all the Poppy and other seeds.

I never thought of it, maybe thee is a residual thing with the Poppy Seeds,
that will make you love everything. Hmmm1 I'll have to look into that.

Mitch:
It's not the skinnier rope of dough, with less rise.
It still rises the same.

Just that it is the look I like and seems like most of the NY bagel makers do it this way ???

Some say they don't like the perfect look.

I just make what everyone here likes.

Even eat them with Strawberry Preserves !!!!!!!!

They say Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Sometimes I say " In your Eye "
Lou

Zuzus:
To answer your Question ! You can duplicate anything you like.
I just use my Braided Bread recipe and cut back on the sugar slightly.
It is not sweet like everyone say's. They don't know ,because they never tried it.

Google, " Luigi's Braided Bread ".
Or Lou's Bagel's and find the Garden Forum Post.

You will get a lot of info on NY bagels and mine.
Hope this helps. Please let us know!
LOU

I'm not sure I've eaten a NY Bagel, although I've gotten good bagels near Detroit. I had a Montreal bagel while I was in Toronto and I've made my own. It's too much trouble to make my own because I don't eat them that much!

Truthfully, the only difference I see between that Montreal Bagel I got in Toronto and the ones Elery brings from Detroit is that the one from Toronto was flatter. They all taste pretty much the same to me, and anything is better than the frozen Lenders' that I get here!

Of course, when I toast them and add some cream cheese and habanero gold they become edible too.

Annie

Thanks for the responses; very interesting. NY water ain't gonna happen for me, but I've ordered high-gluten flour and barley malt syrup from King Arthur, and found a few recipes that include those ingredients. Will let you know how it goes.

All I know is one of my best friends grew up in New York and said there is no place in the world that makes better bagels! She also mentioned the NY water! She said it is the most pristine water of any city in the world. I don't know; I'm just repeating what she told me.

Not to hijack the thread but, yes, the NY water is highly rated and, as someone earlier mentioned, it comes from upstate--the Catskills, I think.

leel: I use Well water. Maybe that's what makes mine taste good.

Something I can't understand !!!
If everything is so gooooood in New York.
Why are so many New Yorkers here in Pa. ???
The famous NY, Quote " Glad I could get out of NY ".
Lou

It's definitely the water. They did a blind taste-test on Food Detectives a while back and pizza made with NYC water won hands down. Hub grew up in NYC and still misses the tap water.

I personally think it's the plutonium in the water. It gives baked goods that special glow.

Don't buy any bagels from anyone, unless they also can make a decent bialystoker ( Bialy ).

dcarch

You women are wierd !!!
Guess I'm the only sane one here.

Lou

Nice, Lou.

Murray's Deli is about 10 minutes from my house. Lemme know when your in town again and we'll meet for a nosh.

I think a genuine NY Bagel has to have the ability to pull the fillings out of your teeth. They also have to be sold out of a brown bag with the edges rolled down.

By the way, you should see the reservoirs in upstate NY (Catskill Mts) that provide a lot of the water for the cities. They are absolutely gorgeous and pristine. No wonder the bagels taste so good.

Pamella:
That can't be the same Murray's Deli that was in West Philly??? I know there are a couple around.
Maybe they moved to Bala Cynwood, already !!!

I haven't been traveling too much but I'll let you know if I'm in your area.
Haven't had Lox and Bagel,with Cream Cheese and Onion,at Murray's Deli, for years.
Lou

I just wanted to put in a good word for Los Angeles, especially around Farifax Ave. Lots of good Jewish bakeries and delis. I really got a chuckle out of the blueberry bagel story. When I was growing up in the San Fernando Valley, the only choices for bagels were water or egg. I'm not even sure about poppy seed as an option.

I agree with others about what passes for bagels in most grocery stores. Soft & fluffy. Yuck! OK for a hamburger bun but definitely not a real bagel.

I like Panera Bread bagels. They are much better than anything from a grocery store.

Oh whoops, Lou. When I see Murray's Deli, I think Bala Cynwyd, right down the road from Hymie's. Where in West Philly is Murray's? The best deli in W Philly is Koch's at 43rd & Locust. Not sure they are still there.

Murray's in BC has been there for generations, although I am more of a Hymie's girl myself.

I am grew upon in Harrison, NY. My dad was a native NY'er. I was raised Catholic and my mom took my picture eating bagels in my St. Anthony's uniform. I fell in love at first bite and I know (and love) the real thing!

Living in the mid-west with folks trying to sweeten the true bagels has been painful. Ann T. solved that problem for me years ago when she shared her recipe. If not perfect, it is close.

Thanks Ann.

Adele

Hey dcarch, I like bialys too! But I have to make my own so it doesn't happen often :-(
There's a chain of sandwich shops here that makes sandwichs on bagels but they're the fluffy kind :-P I guess most poeple here think they're just round bread rolls. A bakery in my town opened up and touted itself as a gourmet bakery. They had bagels so I asked how they were made. "We steam them," the woman announced proudly. I didn't buy one. I did try their apple strudel, which was the worst I ever had, and their bread was just supermarket fluff at artisan prices.

You are welcome Adele. I know what you mean about painful. Nothing worse than biting into a bagel and expecting one flavour and texture and finding just a sweet egg bread. Hard to find bagels that compare to a Montreal or a NY bagel elsewhere, although Toronto and Vancouver both have a couple of bagel shops that come pretty darn close.

Ann

My life-long dearest friend is a professional baker. She works in a Jewish deli in Chicago and has won many bagel-baking awards (Did you know they have such a thing?) She was taught by the master bagel maker twenty-five years ago and hasn't changed the recipe by so much as a grain of salt over the years.

She is a wonderful Irish Catholic redhead who has a masters degree in French, and probably the best bagelmaker in the city.

Wow! Can't wait to see her recipe and tips!

;-)

A real bagel, like all great bread, is a workout to eat. It has distinct flavor, heft and chewiness, and a meaningful crust.
I couldn't agree more!!

Back in the 1970s a young local guy here in Houston went up to New York and apprenticed in a bagel bakery or some such and learned how to make real bagels. Before that, the best we had were Lender's frozen and round bread rolls like Colleen mentioned.

Anyway, he came back and opened the first REAL bagel place in Houston. They are just as lpink describes in the quote above. And I just happen to now live spittin' distance from the shop. Back in the old days, you could get plain, sesame, raisin, poppy and bialystock IIRC. Now he offers lots of new flavors I guess to keep up with competition.

He calls his shop New York Bagels, and yes, they are. Yeah, right here in l'il ol Housont! Believe it or not. And for that reason I will never make my own. LOL

"-------She is a wonderful Irish Catholic redhead who has a masters degree in French, and probably the best bagelmaker in the city."

Not good enough. They have to be Kosher :-)

dcarch

Pamela:
I was talking about Murray's on 60th street. This was many years ago. Probably moved location.
Maybe it's the Murray's of Bala Cynwood.

OK, so it's Hymie's allready, if that is close by you.

I think Koch's was next to my BIL's Pizzeria.
Ceaser's the one I built in the early 80's.I think Koch's was there long before.
Sherrmann:
I want to see the wonderful Irish Catholic Redhead too!!!,
Besides the Bagel Recipe.
Lou

Wow! I had no idea you had to be Jewish to cook Kosher! It's allegedly a kosher deli. I'm sure the owners must know she's not Jewish...but her husband is. Does that count?

I haven't asked her for her recipe, but I will. She makes them in batches of a hundred on professional equipment, and, of course, never at home, so I don't know if she'll be of much help.

I don't think so!! I'll wait for Jessy or Cloudswift or May to weigh in definitively, but plenty of kosher restaurants have Hispanic chefs! It's the process, ingredients and perhaps the oversight by a rabbi that certifies food as kosher.

No, you do not have to be Jewish to cook Kosher. You just have to follow all the rules. If the kitchen is Kosher and the people in it are following the protocols, it doesn't matter one whit if they are Jewish or not.

Which reminds me of the name of an old (from the 60s) Jewish comedy album... You don't have to be Jewish, but it helps! LOL

That line was taken from the commercial for Levy's rye bread--"You don't have to be Jewish to love Levy's, but it helps!" They showed all kinds of people who obviously weren't Jewish getting ecstatic over rye bread. As I recall, it was pretty good bread for stuff that you bought at the supermarket.

If an Irish Catholic redhead can make Kosher bagels, then can a Jew make a Kosher Barmbrack?

:-) :-) :-)

dcarch

Quite possible to get bad New York bagels, too.

My "Judaism for Dummies" says that for a food to be Kosher it must be made by an observant jew.
Reminds me of the time my friend's son was to be Bar Mitzvah and I offered to help her make some of the desserts....but I couldn't in my non kosher kitchen....however my non kosher fingers could shape jam tarts just fine...
I never did figure it out....she just said "Don't go there!!!" LOL!

True story. I never had a bagel until I was about 17 years old. I ran into a bunch of people connecting on the CB radio back in the day. I somehow met a few jewish friends through that connection. One girl Becky invited me to play strip poker with her and her friends. I was losing badly and of course her parents came home early. Not a great thing to put on clothes in such a hurry. Anyway, I digress. I met another guy and for some reason he made us some snacks....bagels toasted in the oven. First time I ever had one! Delicious! Just never something my mom bought or made. They were dense, flavorful and really awesome.

Years later working in an office every salesperson or vendor in the world always brought bagels. I was so sick of them after 15 years of workplace bagels.....but they weren't the good dense, delicious type I remembered. Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. I don't know what happened to Becky but she sure was a cutey and owned a horse. We went horseback riding and I finally enjoyed that with a horse that was well trained. OT I know....but bringing back old memories.

Duane

Wow, I am learning about so much more than just bagels.

Here is another Recipe, below.
I use my Braided Bread Recipe , something like this one.
But cut back on the sugar.
Not sweet as some would have you believe.
I put them in boiling water for 1/2 minute on each side and bake them at 400 Deg.
This is what I like ??? Plus a lot of other foods. So I don't go Banana's over Bagel's and
where they are from.
I'm Thankful for any type Bagel.
Lou
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

New York Bagels recipe

Ingredients:
2 quarts of water.
2 large eggs.
1 egg white.
1 potato, peeled and quartered.
1 packet of active dry yeast.
4 cups of all-purpose flour.
2 cups of boiling water.
¼ cup of vegetable oil.
1 ½ tablespoons of sugar.
½ tablespoon of salt.
Cornmeal, to dust cookie sheet.
Preparation Instructions:
Put the potato into boiling water and boil for fifteen mins.

Discard the potato and allow the water to cool to about 110°F.

Transfer one-third of a cup of the potato water to a small bowl; then sprinkle the yeast over top of water and stir to combine. Set aside for three minutes.

Sift the all-purpose flour, salt, and ½ tablespoon of the sugar together into a suitably sized bowl; then add the yeast mixture. Stir in another 2/3 cup of the potato water and the vegetable oil. Add the eggs and stir to form a dough ball.

Turn the dough out onto a floured surface and knead for about 10 minutes until the ball is firm.

Place into a greased bowl, turning the dough so all sides are greased.

Cover the bowl with a clean towel and set aside in a warm place for about 60 minutes until the dough has risen to about double its original size. Punch the risen dough down to flatten and remove from bowl.

Cut the dough into eighteen equal pieces and shape each piece into a six-inch long, ¾-inch thick rope.

Bring the ends of each rope together and pinch to close, using a little water on the ends to help secure them. Cover all rings with the towel and allow to rise for 20 minutes.

Preheat your oven to 450°F.

Lightly grease a cookie sheet and dust with cornmeal.

Bring the 2 quarts of water to a boil and add the remaining sugar to the boiling water

Drop the bagels into the boiling water one at a time, cooking each for 3 minutes, turning once in the middle. As each bagel is removed from the water, place it on the cookie sheet.

Paint the tops of the bagels with the egg white that has been beaten with 1 teaspoon of water.

Bake for fifteen minutes or until the bagels are a golden brown color.

Having traveled all over the world, after growing up in bergen county, N.J. I have to say that there are three things that NYC area has the best of. Bagels, Pizza and Hard Rolls! The secret to the bagels is in the water...the non-diastatic barley malt powder that is added to the water when they're boiled before being baked.
I've also been a customer of carnegie deli, and the little bagel cart around the corner from there. Many a good bagel...but throughout the city they are a treat as is the buttered hard roll that is only found in the NYC area.
Bagels can be onion, garlic, egg, sesame, poppy, even salt... never blueberry or raisen, not in NYC.
Now pizza, used to be a place right off times square...Kings Pizza, or Pietro's in Ramsey, N.J. Like bagels it's where your from that has the best, a touch of home!
Camo

Maybe it depends on your level of observance, I don't know. But I do know that there are many hotels that offer kosher receptions, and their cooks are NOT all Jewish. The preparation of those meals are supervised by an observant and trained Jew who knows all the rules and ensures that they are followed, but the cooks themselves are not Jewish.

I've eaten many bagels but never a NY bagel. I've never been to NY! I've only driven through it or by it. I've heard such good things about them and many people that live here that are from NY complain all the time about us not having any good bagel places like in NY.