Nice French doors and I really like the banquette!

I like Option 1...but where do you see the dirty dishes going in Option 2?

Option 3 is also nice, if you didn't have the pantry, so close to the range. If you could switch that to an 18" prep space...I think I'd pick that one :)

The second option is better, but the island is too large in both. A 30" aisle is a complete no go, even if it's in front of the french doors. Those doors won't always be open. You need to lose at least a foot off of the island. I'd suggest downsizing the prep sink cabinet to a 24". You can still fit a plenty big 20" prep sink in that size. Lop another 6" off of one of the other cabinets or 3" off of two of them. Now you have room for people to get to the fridge.

Woops! I mean Option #3 was better as that gives you better zone delineation.

And really consider the implications of having such a LARGE range in such a small space. I don't think the size works.

I think Hollysprings is right about the island. A smaller prep sink would still work and you need more aisle space.

As for the range...I think the bigger size would work, especially with the wall of French doors, but you need to balance that out with something special over the banquette (maybe pictures or high back cushion) and also something more over the main sink. Maybe something like this? {{gwi:1447238}}From Kitchen plans

And your French doors make me think of this picture, which I post a lot, but it's one of my favorites :) {{gwi:1666701}}From Kitchen plans

I like option 1 myself. What if you moved the sink to one side but had a few extra inches of overhang so there a little to the side. You could make the overall island a little less long and make 36-48" deep. It looks like if you reconfigure the island out, it would work.

I love some of the things you're going to be incorporting. A wall of french doors and the chimney breast. That is going to look so awesome!!!

Hey Zeebee! Great to finally see you on here with some specific plans for your kitchen reno. First off, I need to tell you that I'm not posting to this thread in order to help you with your layout. Unfortunately, layouts are just not my area of expertise whatsoever. But I am on here to give you a shout out of congratulations on finally moving forward with this project. Woo hoo! I can't wait see what you're going to do with your space because even, at this point, some of your ideas look/sound fantastic! BTW,
I'm noticing that you're going with a 48" range. I assume this means that you've dropped plans to go with the Aga 6-4? (Shucks! I was hoping for a Brownstone Brooklyn/GW TKO buddy with whom I could share Aga stories and advice!) :-) Well, at any rate, I do intend to try and follow your progress on this project as best I can. So please do post much and often. And good luck!

When you entertain formally (albeit infrequently), is the dining room upstairs? Is there a dumbwaiter? Do you have to carry everything?

I disagree about the spacing around the island. 42" from fridge to island works (I have that). And 30-32" on the other side should be fine. That was the width to the old doorway into my dining room! I did have that widened, but that was for carrying trays. The open air space over the island takes care of this, and it should be fine for a secondary access. Both aisles feel tighter in the fridge by the doors version, however.

A bigger issue to me is the narrowness of the island. It's not really functional. Stuff will roll off the back! If you need to keep the wide aisle open, for chairs, or moving big stuff or something, you can do a drop down surface like I did for my table, but even just making the top at least 30" deep, preferably 36", will help.

Actually, I think I prefer plan #1. There's elbow space by the range that way, the fridge is closest to the stairs, which is convenient for drive-bys. It's also easiest access to the outside, though it's farther away, because it's by the big open aisle. The dish storage is right across from the DW, the trash is in the right place for both prep and clean-up, the pantry is good sized.

The big downfall I see is that there's a deep dark corner between the pantry and the back wall which will be pretty useless except for aquiring dusty stuff. You could maximize storage (again, talking about #1) by making the corner susan full height. That would be much more accessibly and useful than a continuation of the counter there and possibly an upper, if the 42" pantry is right there.

Eliminate a set of the french doors in favor of windows and turn the kitchen into a U with an island. Put the sink in front of those windows, the range on the chimney, and the fridge on the back wall. I don't think the island will be big enough for a prep sink then, so you might do one in the corner between the fridge and range.

Wow, ideas already!

Lavender Lass - you are right about option 2, no place to put dirty dishes except the sink and no place to gather clean dishes coming out of the dishwasher. That option is winning no fans here, so it is off the table.

And I agree that we need a design and/or color statement with the banquette wall to balance the big range. And I like your idea of jazzing up the wall over the second sink if we go with option 3. I love this banquette from Houzz, in a more vibrant color:

[

[traditional kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by minneapolis general contractor John Kraemer & Sons

Hollysprings - I hear you about aisle widths. DH now thinks the 30" might be small, so I am going to adjust the island size.

And the range size is a factor, I agree. That was/is the hardest appliance decision. My ideal is five or six burners and two ovens, but that steers me to Aga or Lacanche, and I do not love the sealed burners on either enough to make that choice. I could live nicely with a 36" gas range if I had space for a warming drawer, but it is awkward to place in my space. And DH and I eat too many meals that are totally different to juggle one oven all the time. Argh.

Aloha2009, good idea, am trying a plan with a deeper island. I could have cookbook storage then!

Marthavila - howdy stranger! Right after our NYC get-together we had an illness and death in the family, so it is just now that I am back on track and back at the kitchen stuff. Yes, I have gone off the Aga 6-4, partly the burners and also I do not think my cranky back wants to bend down for those low ovens. Thanks for the compliments on the space, I will be posting a lot when reno starts.

Plllog - Our kitchen reno almost precludes formal entertaining if we indeed make the formal dining room into a bedroom (the current formal DR is the long narrow room on the full-floor layout). We would have to rearrange furniture in the upstairs living rooms to have a sit-down dinner if I do not want to seat people in the kitchen or if there are more than the banquette can accommodate. No dumbwaiter, so I would be schlepping food up and down stairs....I want to make the banquette area dressy - see Houzz pic above - so it feels more like sitting down to dine rather than grabbing a bite in the kitchen.

I am sketching plans with widened aisles/shortened island, but I know I will have to mock it up to see what feels right. As mentioned above, DH is now nervous about 30" by the French doors but may be OK with the fridge aisle at 42-43" in Plan 1. I agree that the island needs to be deeper, and am going to add in a 12" overhang that would add some heft and I could store cookbooks there

Good point about a full-height corner susan, I will sketch one in. I hate blind corners and am not wild about susans in general but it seems the best way to deal with the space.

Live Wire Oak - that was our original plan, a c-shaped kitchen with small island, one set of French doors close to the banquette area. The architect was not able to make it work with the first go-round of drawings, since adding another 24" depth of counterspace and the necessary aisle behind it shrank the island even smaller. And my prep sink was going to have to be in that back corner facing a wall. Then we fell in love with all the light that a wall of French doors would bring in, and the C-shape idea fell by the wayside. BUT maybe I need to play with that idea again. The prep-cooking-cleanup flow would be very linear. Hmmm....

OK, off to mess with plans, will post again when I have incorporated some of your ideas. Many thanks!

Zeebee, I agree that the dressy banquette, and matching kitchen area, will make for good entertaining in the kitchen. Thanks for clarifying what "infrequent formal entertainers" meant (I figured it meant once in awhile, so how that was going to work became important).

The additional island depth with the cookbooks under will work for utility, and make a nice room divider--the appearance of books reads more dining roomish.

I agree about corners. I got rid of 3 super susans in the old kitchen, and put in corner drawers. In your layouts, however, the susans seem to make the most sense. Plan #3 is the most open, but plan #1 looks like it has the best storage. With either that or #2, the full height susan pantry seems to work best. Reaching the far part of the upper in the corner in plan #2 is really hard even when there isn't a full height pantry in the way. It's a bit easier when the upper is a corner like in plan #3.

So, you have some "if"s on the floorplan. Have you considered making the other room into a multi-use one? It's long enough. You could do a really fancy cabinetry wallbad/bookcase in the far end. Good quality wall beds can be as comfortable as any other bed, with the same mattress, etc. If you wanted to have a larger dinner party, especially if it weren't at the same time as you had house guests, you could raise the bed (they can be made really beautifully on the bottom, too, so that no one knows there's a bed there), and put in a folding table. Or maybe even keep a small table in the guest room, that can take a lot of leaves. Or rent table and chairs (which is sometimes cheaper and easier than owning and storing them).

I would think by the time you had more guests than you could fit that way, it would be time to hire a hall, anyway, right?

Zeebee- I like that banquette! Very stylish.

I also like the two French doors, but a window (or a few windows) over the kitchen sink would be nice, too. I found this picture of a renovated brownstone kitchen, but it might be more vintage than your style... {{gwi:1686195}}From Kitchen plans

Are you planning on having dining outside, too? This is a pretty little garden space, in the back of a Brooklyn row house :) {{gwi:1686197}}From Lavender's Garden

OK, based on your feedback I built shorter fatter islands in Plans 1 (dishwasher in island, one sink kitchen) and Plan 3 (fridge by windows, two sink kitchen). I drew in a 12" overhang on the back of the island, which I'd make into bookshelf space for my cookbooks. You're all right, the aisles are now more breathable. I can nudge the island a couple inches in any direction to make the aisle more symmetrical or give more aisle space where needed. I also made the super Susan full height to help with the awkward blind corner. What do you think?

Modified plan 1:

Modified Plan 3:

Plllog, we are thinking about making the dining space a multi-purpose room, though DH is pushing that harder than I. I had not thought of a wall bed, though we have a shallow marble-topped built-in cabinet on the wall where a wall bed would go (did not put it in the plan), and that would be hidden when the bed is up. But it is an interesting idea. I would be on board with renting tables/chairs if we ever needed them, rather than storing a dining table and chairs in the basement. I also like you idea of getting a long skinny table with leaves. Along one wall, it could be an everyday desk in the guest room, but a dining table if/when needed. And if I still cannot seat everyone, I throw a cocktail party instead!

Lavender Lass, I am reviving the architect�s original plan with the c-shaped/u-shaped kitchen and plugging it into my software, just to see what happens. DH made a horrible face when I threw out the possibility of replacing one set of French doors, so he would take some convincing.

I do like that kitchen you posted. It is more vintage than I want, but a lovely space. We might add a gas grill outside but unfortunately our area of Brooklyn is inundated with mosquitos from June through September, so the summer months do not work for outdoor dining. We have a small bluestone patio by the back door and sometimes sit out in the spring or late fall with a cup of coffee and the paper.

Thanks again for everyone's input.

I'm glad to see you're considering just one sink. I'll take a good functional work area over an inadequate one plus extra sink any day/any week/any year.

BTW, I love the space you have to work with and the way you're opening it to the garden. It's going to be gorgeous.

Zeebee- If I read this correctly, Option 1 has no counterspace, except on either side of the range and the island? Is that correct? And Option 2 only has counterspace on 9" to the right of the stove? Both have no counterspace in the corner? I'm just concerned that while you have good storage, you don't have very much prep area.

Have you tried a U-shape kitchen, with fridge/pantry/corner susan, then the range, then the main sink/clean up area under windows...with an island? I'm guessing you could easily put in a 5' island (maybe larger) for prep and still have great flow in the kitchen. This would give you so much more counterspace, storage and a nice view out the windows, too. With this layout, I don't think you need a prep sink, but that's up to you.

The french doors would still allow for easy access to the patio, but you wouldn't be giving up the wall space, for the second set of doors. While I like the idea of the two sets of French doors, I like the idea of more prep space, even more.

Try it out and see what you think. The advantage of the island is that you don't have one narrow opening into the kitchen, but a much better flow around the island. It would be better for entertaining and you could center the island on the range. I think the U-shape would balance out the bigger range, too. Just a thought :)

Oh, and what are you planning to use for materials? What color/stain on cabinets, countertops, backsplash, etc. It seems it will be a stylish and I'm guessing marble might be going somewhere...and of course, marble countertops and a wood island would be very pretty...but you have a lot of choices.

I did a quick cut and paste for you. It's by no means accurate on the dimensions, but it gives you an idea.

Putting the sink in front of a large casement window to the counter would give you 80% of the light that having a french door would. (Light enters a window from above, so the most amount of light is from the top third of the window. It's better to have shorter windows higher up than it is to have tall windows further down to the floor.)

Not exactly a casement, but you get the idea that the whole view in front of the sink still would remain.

Here's one that does use a casement window, and even shelving across it for display purposes! It has an overhanging porch, so it's a bit darker than yours would be.
{{gwi:1686216}}

You can still manage a small prep sink, like this 14"x14" one from Houzer on the corner of the smaller island.

I reduced the pantry area in favor of one that is more organized and will give you more storage and more counterspace. The area along the back wall could house a small appliance garage if you really have that many small appliances. If not, most can go into the lazy susan underneath in that corner to be pulled out when needed. The cabinets above can also store your plastics and spices and some other "immediate need" type of foodstuffs. The wall cabinets between the now huge 33" single sink that can hold an entire evening's worth of dirty dishes until you get them to the DW will be your china storage. Since you have the island for prep, you could do these cabinets to the counter with not much loss of functionality. It would still be a good secondary prep spot, just not quite as much room.

I think you *could* have the island closer to the french doors than 36" because it is a non-working side of the island and in essence becomes a passageway or doorway, and 32" is ok for a doorway. I know that one of my friends lived in an old NY tenement (and I looked at an old house here --1810ish) where the upstairs hallways were 32". Now that't tight, and not current code, but it was not impassible either.

If you had more room, and this were not an old row house I would say 36" at least on each side, but I would rather have more space on the working end, and squeeze it down on the other, because in essence in a small, one-two person kitchen that second side of the island becomes a secondary circulation bath and it it were a doorway instead of an island corner it might only be 30".

I like LWO's layout, but I don't know if the prep sink would be in your landing space, from the fridge. Do you have any countertop planned, by the fridge? Then the prep sink would work much better, IMHO.

If you change to a U-shape with island...have you considered centerting the banquette, too? That would give you 24" on each side for dish storage and make an eaiser access to the banquette, without blocking the French doors. It would also line up with your cookbook storage, your range and you'd see more of the view outside the kitchen window, too :)

Live Wire Oak - wow, a million thank yous! That was very generous of you to take the time. I've been working on a u-shape kitchen this morning but was hitting snags on the corners, and convinced the island wouldn't be big enough for a sink. You have proved me wrong! I'm taking your plan and plugging it in with my dimensions. I LOVE this layout!

Palimpsest - our current halls are 32" and that's before you subtract the baseboard molding. The study I'm sitting in right now has a 27" doorway. You get used to skinny passages in a 19-foot wide house. ;)

Lavender Lass - hah, materials, the great Unmentionable Topic in Our Household. DH and I are having problems agreeing on anything except Carrera marble for the counters and moderately dark wood floors, which will match up with the materials in the rest of the house. I see a traditional kitchen, or at least no more than transitional, with modern accents in our lighting, banquette/chair and color choices, which is consistent with what we've done in the rest of the house. DH wants more modern, wants nothing visible except the appliances (i.e. no glass front cabinets or open shelving), and has ruled out all shades of gray, green and yellow. He'd love a white kitchen, and I'm not against it, but his idea of white feels sterile to me. The picture LWO posted above with the white and blue works for me but wouldn't for him. We've been dithering about style stuff for too long, so agreed to nail down a layout first before we take up that battle again.

Lavender Lass, posted the last before I read your latest comment. Hadn't planned on landing area next to the fridge - the island would be it. I'd have to slide the pantry down the wall to get counterspace right next the fridge and I like the two tall elements side by side.

I'll start messing with the banquette when I plug in LWO's plan to my software. It would mean sacrificing part of DH's wine/coffee area but I have the counterspace in this plan to put the coffee machine somewhere in the run between the pantry and the range. You're right, the symmetry would play well, and my architect is all about symmetry...

You all are great! :)

Zeebee- So your DH wants marble, but doesn't like gray? And he doesn't like green or yellow...and blue, or would blue be okay? What's he want...orange??? LOL

Seriously, find a nice warm white and add some glass uppers, if only on either side of the banquette. If you have the dish storage elsewhere, try to go with all/mostly windows, above the sink area. That will bring in light (as LWO pointed out) but will also give you a much lighter (as opposed to heavy) look, without using glass uppers.

So, it sounds like you both like white and wood...and marble. Have you seen Breezy's kitchen? It's beautiful and would work in your space. Not too traditional, but lots of light and white, with wood and marble. Here's a link :)

Here is a link that might be useful: Link to Breezy's kitchen

Breezy's kitchen is gorgeous.

DH loves marble as a material but wants to pick out slabs that won't be "too" gray. If we punch it up with a warmer color it will be fine, it's just a matter of agreeing on that warmer color, blue being the most likely. Cool colors die in this narrow dark house.

Again, thank you all for your advice thus far.

I'm posting the final two plans of the day, incorporating many of your suggestions.

First is Live Wire Oak's U-shaped plan.

The second plan is my original Plan 1, updated with some of the features from the U-shaped kitchen:

I took Lavender Lass's suggestion and tried to line up the range, island and banquette. It will not be perfect, as the chimney breast is not perfectly centered, but it will be close. I should have enough counterspace under either plan to move DH's coffee pot to the countertop, probably that deep corner to the left of the range.

Have lots to discuss with DH tonight.

Once again, I cannot thank you all enough for your guidance and assistance.

Hi, thought you might want to consider this layout - I saw this in TOH Magazine, and it is quite similar. See the link to TOH! The TOH picture is a better rendition. Good luck!

Here is a link that might be useful: TOH Kitchen with Garden

JeannieMer, thanks so much for that link and for mocking up the plan. I have this copy of TOH filed away and will go dig it out. If I don't lose too much in storage space, this is an interesting option.

That is a very nice layout, and inspiration picture, Jeannie. It's extremely functional but elegantly simple and keeps that also elegantly simple and symmetric bank of doors across the back. Another thing I like about this is that the kitchen and dining functions are in balance; the kitchen doesn't overwhelm the dining area, and the whole room would feel larger.

Zeebee, I was wondering, though, which door layout actually gives the best view of the garden? Would closing some of it off, such as in the big-kitchen layout, actually allow you to focus the view to best effect, or would it fail to frame the view well? Would restyling the garden to create the best view and function from whatever interior layout you choose be a possibility?

That couch for relaxing in Jeannie's larger pictured kitchen is probably very popular, but a good banquette seat could match its comfort, especially if the table were dropleaf or otherwise expandable so most of the time you could just walk over and sit down.

Jeannie- I like that plan, too. It might be a little less storage, but the island is so much bigger. I also like the way there are three long lines (cabinetry, island, banquette/table) with the long wall of French doors. Very nice :)

Rosie, the garden view is an interesting question. Right now our garden, the handiwork of the previous owner, is overplanted and without any real focal point. It all looks OK but you don't look at any one feature when you look outside. Restyling the garden is high on my agenda as soon as we finalize a plan, since we don't want to spend all that money opening up the back wall to let in light/view, then not give ourselves a view to enjoy.

If you do go with the back wall and big island, would something like this work, for the back wall? I like the dark countertop with the marble tile backsplash. Then you could have the same countertop on the island, or marble, or even wood. Just an idea :)
{{gwi:1685330}}From Kitchen plans

Hmmmm....see, I like all the individual elements in that picture, but for me it needs a splash of some color to enliven it. White/gray/stainless on its own will feel antiseptic in my house. I agree that a wood counter, would add a lot of warmth and character to the space.

How about a light morning glory blue on the walls? With some plants/herbs and maybe some cut flowers...that's always a nice combination :)

That's what I want to do in my sunroom!

I'm not sure I'm keeping up well with your thoughts, so I appologise for going back several days. I really like LWO's plan but would change two things. One is add 6" to the full height pantry. The other is to rob a little from the main aisle. That 3-6" will make the seating area feel so much more open! And it will give more space for chairs and people to pass.