How are you starting your starters? Do you use yeast or are you capturing wild local yeasts? I've never used yeast to make a starter but I have started some by capturing local yeasts or using the center part of an excellent tasting sourdough loaf and using it to cultivate the starter. These among all the others I maintain have never died even though I am not too dependable about feeding them regularly. I always just use AP flour to feed them but I've found that I have better luck if my starters are really starving to only use a small amount of starter to about half cup of flour and almost half cup of declorinated or distilled water and keep the environment not any warmer than 80, sometimes it takes 24 hours to revive, sometimes it takes more than 2 or more cycles of feeding. I understand organic flour is better but I keep forgetting to look for that. That's just my .02.

I hate to say this as a possibility but some environments are not congenial to sourdough starters. I don't mean your kitchen, I mean the external environment.

As an example, someone who lives in a city with a high pollution index may find it nearly impossible to keep a starter going.

I'm not saying that's the case here, but if you run through every option and nothing seems to correct the problem that might be what you're left with.

A firmer starter is stronger, so you might try giving your yeasts more to feed on. So take a couple of teaspoons of starter, add 1/4 cup of flour and add enough water to form quite a thick paste. Even if a lot of the yeasts have died, barring some unforseen factor, there should still be plenty in a 2 teaspoons to get going again. A mere gram of active starter has between 10,000,000 and 1,000,000,000 microorganisms, so you can lose a good amount and still have more than adequate numbers.

What's happening is by changing the standard ratio of starter to flour you're giving them an added boost. It's not only the additional food but that you're raising the pH. As the microorganisms in the old starter feed they produce acid and acid is the major inhibitor to growth. Basically you want to give the little devils the equivalent of Thanksgiving dinner and sweeten them up.

If you see some activity but it's feeble, take a couple of teaspoons out of that batch and repeat until your starter is back to full vigor.

Carol

I feel your frustration, Michelle. For years I never had success with sourdough starter that I tried to start on my own. Once I got some dried starter from the Friends of Carl Griffith I was finally able to make bread without yeast, keep the starter alive for the past 3 years, and even dry some of it to share. If you'd like to try again with a proven starter, just email me and I'll send some your way.
Teresa

As a remote possibility.... Are you washing the containers you are using for your starter in a dishwasher? I understand rinse aids in the dishwasher leaves a residue that kills off the good bacteria in starters, as well as for other fermented foods like kefir. That's why I wash all the canning jars I use by hand and scald them with boiling water before using them for starter or kefir.

As to using a "modern" version of a starter - where you use bakers' yeast to get it going - the bakers' yeast quickly die out and the naturally occuring yeasts (aka wild yeast) take over (if you're lucky) anyway.

No matter what starter product you purchase and use, the starter eventually becomes colonized with the type of yeasts available in your local, and from the flour source you use.

As far as "wild" yeast go, you get and maintain most of the colony of naturally occuring yeast from the bran (surface) of the type of grain you are using. The surface of grain has much more of the type of yeast you need for starter on it than you'll ever "capture" from the air.

I also use freshly milled organic spelt flour for my starter because there are more carbohydrates in it than flour derived from wheat, for the starter to feed on.

Are you refrigerating your starter between uses? If you're not refrigerating it, then your starter may be starving between uses, especially as already pointed out, it's ratio of liquid is higher than flour.

There's also the addition of pineapple juice...but I'll have to go through my files for that information.

-Grainlady

I don't use any yeast, just flour and bottled water. All the starters begin doing very well and then something happens. And the last batch was doing the best so far and I even used it in 2 No-Knead Loaves and it tasted so good. And then it just died. It still smells good and very sour, just no activity at all.

As an example, someone who lives in a city with a high pollution index may find it nearly impossible to keep a starter going.

I thought of this too Carol. But I live in a semi rural area and the pollution index is low. I am a horticulturist and would see air pollution evidence on my trees and I've not seen any air pollution problems in the 7 yrs we've lived here.

Friends of Carl Griffith

Teresa, I sent for some Carl Griffith's back in Apr-May when I was still in my temporany kitchen. Actually the Carl Griffith's starter did not do well at all. Again, began very well, bubbles and lots of activity and then just stopped.

Are you washing the containers you are using for your starter in a dishwasher? I understand rinse aids in the dishwasher leaves a residue that kills off the good bacteria in starters, as well as for other fermented foods like kefir.

Hmmmmm.....this could be the current problem. But when I first began trying to get a SD starter going I was in my temporary kitchen during the remodel and we had no dishwasher. However, I have noticed that my kefir does not ferment as quickly since my new kitchen was finished and of course I am using the DW now. I will now wash the kefir bottles by hand and sterlize in a BWB.

For now, I've put my current starter in the frig. I will let it set for a bit and see if a rest is what I needs.

My bulk store does carry orangic spelt and I'm going to try spelt instead of flour and begin another starter today.

Thanks everyone for your ideas. I have printed out everything and will go try again.

Michelle

Michelle,
Have we discussed what type of water you are using? Are you using bottled water, if not, I would suggest using bottle spring water and see if your water source could be the culprit. Usually well water works fine with SD starters, but you never know.
Teresa

Michelle, I'm not sure what the problem is. But I know that I can leave mine unfed for months at a time and then feed them and they are still very active.

The containers I use are washed in the dishwasher so I know that isn't a problem for me.

I did read that you should stir the mixture with a wooden spoon rather than stainless and I always do that. Apparently the acid in the starter reacts with metal (According to Amy's Bread author). If you aren't using a wooden spoon you might give that a try and see if it makes a difference.

When I'm ready to feed the starter I weight out 4 ounces into a clean plastic container (I use the ziplock 1 litre containers with screw on lids) then I weigh out 2 ounces of flour (either organic rye or just white bread flour) and then 2 ounces of bottled spring water. Stir vigoriously with a wooden spoon, top with the lid and leave on the kitchen counter to develop. Normally it only takes about 6 hours.

Also according to Amy's Bread recipe, if once you have fed your starter and it isn't very active, (doubling in 8 hours) just leave it a little longer, and then measure out 6 ounces of the starter again and feed it with flour and water, starting the process again. You might have to do this 2 or 3 times to get it active again.

Don't give up Michelle.

Ann

I've always used bottled spring water for the SD starters. And I've even tried different brands of spring waters and even distilled water, thinking maybe one might work better then another. But it didn't seem to make a difference.

Maybe I should just try our well water. I have a faucet in my pantry which bypasses the softener so it's straight out of the well.

Another thing I tried was using a jar with a plastic lid thinking maybe the metal lid was causing a problem. But again the started died right on schedule.

When I first began trying SD Starters I did try 2 different recipes, Glezer's and Scherber's. Glezer's has the longest life so far but poops out after a while.

Michelle

Here's a link to the pineapple juice solution (see link below), via Peter Reinhart.

From another site:
If you are just starting your starter from from scratch, use canned pineapple juice instead of water during the first two days of feeding. The acid in the juice is just at the right ph level to acidify the dough to the yeast's liking but not to the leuconostoc. The starter should then work like a good starter should. You should then switch to back to water from Day Three onward, and the pineapple juice will dilute out as you feed and refresh your starter daily.

-Grainlady

Here is a link that might be useful: Peter Reinhart's Weblog

Good luck, Michelle. I can't add anything that hasn't already been said, but I had very little luck last winter with a sourdough starter, it would start, then die, or never start at all. I used bottled water, rye flour, kept it in the oven, gave it a heating pad, washed the containers by hand, fed it pineapple juice. No go. A friend sent me some dried starter that was supposed to date back to the Gold Rush. Still nothing.

Finally, I got a starter going that used yogurt. Since I make my own yogurt, it's not sweet and didn't add a discernible flavor. It's in my refrigerator now, I need to get it out and feed it and see if I've managed to kill THAT off yet....

Annie

Didn't see a reply concerning refrigeration of the starter between feedings and uses? It does need to be refrigerated unless you are making bread everyday. The chill slows down the feeding frenzey of the yeasties.

If you have a sluggish starter it may take 3 or more refreshments to get it going. It's a good idea to refrigerate it for a while between refreshments to give it a rest. Three is the most times I've done to get a sluggish starter going and believe me, I've had a completely FLAT starter a time or two at the first refreshment. I always see bubbles when I add the flour but I think those come from the flour naturally but sometimes when I'm rinsing out the mixing containers there are bubbles emanating from the rinsing water, which tells me there is some life in there. You might try a second jar of refreshment with a little sugar or potato flakes to see if that does better than your usual method. The literature I got with Carl's suggests adding ACV acidify environment or baking soda if water is too hard. The most stable starter I have is one called Pan de Campagne, Carl Griffith's and one my daughter gave me that claims to be over 200 years old which may be Carl's but they have a little different aroma, and my newest which we gathered locally a couple years ago. I use stainless steel spoons to refresh as well as plastic spatulas and wooden spoons. I wash my containers in the dishwasher or hand wash and hot rinse and drain dry. I read somewhere that stainless steel is safe and since the KA bowl is stainless steel which many use for making bread I don't think it hurts, at least I haven't killed any of my starters using SS spoons to refresh. I never store in stainless steel or metal; glass is my preferred but I often use the plastic Ziplock with the screw top. When I use the metal canning lids I place a sandwich bag under the metal lid to protect from the metal but I found some plastic canning lids at Walmart this year which I can now use on the canning jars. As a side note, I really don't know where the line is when refreshing that you are just capturing new yeasties instead of reviving the old ones. And our area is supposedly worse than LA for poor air, we receive all the pollutants from the SF Bay area and are trapped here by the eastern Sierra Nevada. However, I think it would be harder to kill an older starter than to kill a new one as that's how we've managed to develop germs that are really, really hard to kill; survival of the fittest. Given that, I would gladly share some of my old starters if you want to try them, just email me. Sorry for rambling on.

Pollution may not be the issue, but it's always seemed to me there are certain "unknowns" which make it very difficult to maintain starters in some places. What those factors are, who knows?

But I've noticed some are meticulous in their practices and still have difficulty. On the other hand, I'm careless with starters (I'm referring to natural starters, flour and water only). I stir with wood or metal, I leave it neglected in the fridge for long periods of time, I freeze it, I feed with white flour, I use tap water, I sometimes wash containers by hand and sometimes in the dishwasher. And everything's fine.

The only thing I can conclude is that I can't take credit. Something in the environment in this area is just naturally congenial to those microorganisms.

You've gotten lots of great tips. I don't think anyone mentioned aerating the starter. When you refresh, be sure to stir or whip it well. I actually use a whisk.

Carol

I've got some pineapple draining to collect the juice. Just pineapple juice was over $5 a bottle and 1 large can was on sale for $1. So I'm just draining it now and so far have over 1/2 c.

Should I feed my current starter the pineapple juice and rye or start a new one?

I did not have time today to get the spelt but will buy some tomorrow and begin another starter.

Michelle

msafirstein - at least you have beautiful cookies to console you.

I was going to ask about water, but I see that has already been asked and answered. What ratio of flour to water are you using? There seems to be a pretty wide range in different starter instructions. I've been using a somewhat dry ratio - 1 cup of flour to 1/2 cup of water.

I started mine with yeast. Maybe the transition between store-bought yeast and wild yeast is more smooth than if the leuconostoc mentioned by the article colonizes your starter.

Stainless steel is non-reactive - that is why one uses stainless. I can believe that stirring with other metals might be a problem and not all metal utensils are stainless steel but I have difficulty believing that a reaction happens between quality stainless utensils and starter. I've been stirring with stainless and sometimes feeding the starter in a stainless bowl when the plastic bucket I usually use for feeding and rising things is unavailable.

terrapots, you must be somewhere near me. I think our air pollution is only bad around here certain times of the year and in certain contaminants so it may not be a problem for the starters. I started one in June and divided it into a white and a rye starter. It was my first time. So far so good. I started mine with store-bought yeast but after all this time I assume it has been colonized by wild ones. Perhaps the success is due partly to being between SF and the gold rush area - should be plenty of wild sourdough beasties around here.

I use the Sunset Book of Breads sourdough recipe from the 70's (just like my mom). It uses milk instead of water every time you replenish. Hopefully that doesn't mean I'm cheating! :) It makes THE best sourdough English muffins.

I did kill my sourdough once. I stirred in the liquid that collected at the top after being stored in the fridge a while. That liquid contains yeast waste, and it killed the wee beasties. So now I pour that off, and even if I ignore my sourdough in the fridge for a couple of months, it comes back once it gets a little food and some warmth in the kitchen.

Oh, also, one time I kept the starter in a jar that was much too large for it, and I think having that much air in the jar affected it negatively. So having a jar close to the size of your sponge is also a good tip.

Bread...a Zen art. The variables seem to be infinite, don't they?

I have had the same starter for several years. I am most cateless with it. It sits in the fridge for months at a time in a covered plastic bowl. I don't measure when I feed it. I just take out a cup or two, depending on what I am making, and stir in some flour and tap water to get the consistency I usually get. Once in a while, I might stir in a 1/4 envelope of yeast, but that is the only help it ever gets.

I love the sour smell and the bread is always wonderful

Well I added the pineapple juice and divided up my pooped out starter. The jar with the red top is now being fed white flour and the other jar is being feed rye flour.

I just divided and fed this morning at about 10 pm and when I got home at 3:30 pm the starters had more then doubled!!

Giddy up cowboy!

Michelle

Great going, Michelle! Those starters look beautiful!

Carol

I am very excited about these starters! Silly I know, but it's been a long haul. I just hope they keep going.

I misspoke about the splet. My bulk store only has whole spelt ?berries? and you have to mill it. I don't have a flour mill. But they did have some high gluten flour and in 1lb bags some Bob's Red Mill Vital Wheat Gluten Flour so I bought some of Bob's flour and some organic dark rye flour. Just what I need is a few more flours to add to my collection...LOL!

When I divid and feed tomorrow, I am going to begin another starter with the Red Mill flour.

So that will be 3 starters all with different flours and pineapple juice. I've had 3 going before though and none made it.

But even though my starter was not very active, I used it several times in my no knead bread and it flavored the bread beautifully.

Michelle

Great Michelle! All you did was take them out of the fridge and feed again? Maybe the starter just needed more food. I usually have a half a cup of starter or so and feed it about a cup of flour with a half cup of water.

When I take my starters out of the fridge and feed them, it usually takes a few hours for them to double - especially if they haven't been fed for a week or more. But they are much faster on the second feeding. I think what happens is that the first time there aren't a lot of yeast organisms so it takes a while for them to multiply to the point where the activity is noticeable. By the time I feed the second time, there is already a good colony going so doubling occurs much faster.

Great Michelle! All you did was take them out of the fridge and feed again? Maybe the starter just needed more food. I usually have a half a cup of starter or so and feed it about a cup of flour with a half cup of water.

When I take my starters out of the fridge and feed them, it usually takes a few hours for them to double - especially if they haven't been fed for a week or more. But they are much faster on the second feeding. I think what happens is that the first time there aren't a lot of yeast organisms so it takes a while for them to multiply to the point where the activity is noticeable. By the time I feed the second time, there is already a good colony going so doubling occurs much faster.

Cloud, I divided my starter into 2 bowls. Whipped in pineapple juice and flour, 1 with rye flour and 1 with white flour. I whipped it pretty well and it became very creamy. I put them in 2 clean jars that I had washed by hand and rinsed very well with boiling water. And then about 5 hours later, both starters had more then doubled.

Michelle

So there's always hope. Goodfor you.

OT.. :) Michelle I did not want to start a whole new thread, but I know you said you like white bread and even though I was in a hurry to watch the playoffs last night and should have let this bread rise a little more, this is one of the best white breads I have made.

Buttermilk White Bread

2 packages yeast
1 Tbsp. sugar
1/2 cup warm water
4 cups unbleached flour
1 tsp. salt
3 Tbsp. melted butter
1 1/2 cups buttermilk

Combine yeast, sugar and water and let proof for 5 minutes.

Mix flour, salt, melted butter and buttermilk until smooth and then add yeast mixture.

I used my KA dough hook and kneaded for 10 minutes.

Turn out into large buttered bowl, roll dough around till well coated with butter. Cover bowl and set in warm place for 2 hours.

Punch down the dough, turn out on floured surface and pat gently into rectangle. Fold in ends and then sides of bread, pinch seams together. Put into buttered loaf pan and let rise to double in bulk.

Bake at 375 degrees for 30 minutes.

YuMMMMMMMmmmmmm! Gorgeous bread Linda!! OH you should have started a new thread as your bread deserves center stage!

The added buttermilk sounds so good and I can sub kefir!! I love things I can add my kefir too.

Michelle

LOL Michelle, I am going to bake another loaf today and this time be patient and let it rise. Sigh ... my team lost last night ... Back to Boston.

:)