I really loved Layout #5 that (see OP) that Buehl, Bmorepanic and Rhome helped design. The problem is that I cannot seem to make it work with the flip. I loved that design-- I could see myself cooking in that kitchen! But flipping the rooms makes the most sense but I guess I cannot get my brain to come up with an equally great design. I am anxious to finally get my kitchen remodel started, but cannot until I came up with an new layout.

Any advice would be appreciated-- thanks in advance!

Newbie- I liked Layout #5, too. You can't really flip it, because of the location of the garage door.

Why do you want to flip the design? Are you thinking of using a dining table and chairs, rather than the banquette? Do you want to close the other entry from the living room and just have the opening to the dining area?

From what I remember, it was not easy to set up a kitchen on that side, with the location of the garage door. It's just too close to the window wall. That being said, I'm sure one of the gurus will come up with something :)

Thanks Lavender! Yes, the reason for the "flip" is to close the other entry from the LR and just to have the opening to the new dining room so 1 opening not 2. I am just afraid that 2 openings will give the LR a swiss cheese effect and that it will be strange for resale purposes. We are not looking to put the house on the market any time soon--5-10 years maybe, but I just worried that I will sacrifice the LR for the kitchen.

Its funny-- you finally get what you think you want AND THEN-- its stresses you out!! ;)

Thanks Lavender! Yes, the reason for the "flip" is to close the other entry from the LR and just to have the opening to the new dining room so 1 opening not 2. I am just afraid that 2 openings will give the LR a swiss cheese effect and that it will be strange for resale purposes. We are not looking to put the house on the market any time soon--5-10 years maybe, but I just worried that I will sacrifice the LR for the kitchen.

Its funny-- you finally get what you think you want AND THEN-- its stresses you out!! ;)

I sketched out an approximate flip of #5 that is a double L shape.

From left of the garage door: cabinet, range, L Susan, prep sink, fridge, MW, ends at current DR/K wall.

From right of garage door on east wall: 12" deep cabs, sink centered under window, L Susan, peninsula with DW.

DR: widen window to 6' wide centered on east wall. Opposite this put a 5' wide door to LR. DR is 11' x 11', a nice size for a table and chairs.

Reasonable circulation pattern: can get thru K without interfering with oven, DW, or work zones for the most part, can get to the basement from both doors without too much trouble, LR has longer wall and no traffic going thru it. Seems to give you what you want, but maybe someone can improve on this.

Anne

Newbie- All I'm coming up with is a mirror reverse of what you had drawn on November 16 (first plan) with a prep sink on the peninsula.

Since you want to keep the opening, so close to the 'east' edge of the dining room, you really can't center a table in that area. Why not just use the plan you love? Option #5 is beautiful!

You can close off the dining room doorway, or not, but I can't think of a better design...unless you're willing to move the 'new' doorway over to the left quite a bit! Then, you could flip the plan and have the banquette against the stair wall, with the only opening between the kitchen and dining areas...but that might mess up your living room furniture placement.

It would probably be easier to put the TV between the two doorways, than have a doorway in the middle. Didn't we talk about a pocket door in the dining area? Maybe that's an idea...you could close it off, when you wanted more division in the living room...or open it up, when you're not watching TV. Just a thought :)

In the DR, it might be better when changing the location of the window and door to the LR not to have them centered as I indicated. Instead, allow 18" to 21" deep along the basement stair wall for a buffet. Then center the window (5' wide now), door, and light fixture on the rest of the room. Maybe put an 18" short wall extending N/S from the basement stairs to visually block them, to define the buffet area, and to define the remaining space that the window/door/light would be centered on.

Anne

Thanks Jimandanne & Lavender-- I am trying to visualize both and unfortunately my ikea home planner is not working! :(

@Lavender- if I have to lose the banquette I am okay with that.

Also my contract and DH are trying to talk me out of having a prep sink. They think that our kitchen is not that big and does not need 2 sinks.

The best layout I have come up with is a U along the LR side of the N/S wall starting at the garage door (cabinets, blind corner, cabinet, fridge, cabinet, L Susan, 24" cabinet) and a straight run going from the garage door along the exterior wall (12" deep high pantry cabinets, sink, DW, fridge) but again I would prep on the peninsula and it would need a prep sink somewhere along the U.

@Lavender- One of the advantages of switching the rooms is having more counterspace-- which design #5 did give, but not as much as I think I can get with the flip. I think I am just having difficulties picturing the flip, since for so long I was picturing something else.

Newbie- That's a really good point! It's easy to get so used to an idea...that it's hard to picture anything else. Maybe pretend you're designing this for someone else and picture how it will work for them. Get 'your kitchen remodel' out of your mind and allow yourself to start fresh :)

Lavender- I think that is the problem-- I am having problems taking a fresh look at a new layout. Hopefully some GW'ers can give me a hand!

What if you put the range, against the garage wall, with cabinets on each side...turn the corner and have the fridge on the living room wall, with maybe some pantry storage on the other side. On the window wall, put whatever shallow cabinets you want by the garage door, then have the sink and dishwasher under the window...and if there's room, turn and have your peninsula coming off the sink counter.

So, instead of a U-shape kitchen, if would be more like two L-shapes. The counter with stools would divide the kitchen from the dining area...and you wouldn't be staring right at the garage door, while sitting at the table. When you come in from the garage, you can walk over and set the groceries down on the peninsula counter.

The range would be what you see from the dining room...with a fabulous backsplash...along with a very nice looking garage door. As for your shallow/dish storage, you could put some on the 'east' wall, or wall to the basement stairs. If there's room, you could also tuck some shallow storage, maybe for cookbooks (?) on the other side of the fridge/pantry.

I don't know how big a table you want for dining, but you should be able to easily seat four and still have plenty of room for a beautiful kitchen.

Note- I think a prep sink would depend on how much traffic is going to the garage. If there's a lot of back and forth, you probably need a prep sink. If not, then you could probably easily cross in front of that area, working between the range and main sink.

The big advantage to this plan...room for stools! Best of luck with your design :)

Here is a picture that Young Gardener posted on another thread...wasn't this the type of style, you were thinking of using in your kitchen? It's very pretty!

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I meant to ask you...do you like the farm sink? It would be pretty under the window, maybe with a little plate rack, like the one in the picture. Maybe a peninsula all one level, would give you a little more room for prep.

Hopefully, you'll find a design you love and get to start your remodel, very soon! :)

Lavender- I love farm sinks!

As for your idea about the range...I know this is going to sound like I want my cake and to eat it too, but I was really hoping that I would not have the range on the garage wall b/c I would have my back to the rest of the room. I like the idea that when I am cooking I can talk with the people at the peninsula or sitting at the dining room table. I know that may sound weird. I am also a pretty messy cook and I like to have a sink near the stove b/c that is where I will prep. I cannot see myself carrying a whole tray of prepped veggies from the sink across the kitchen. My poor DH wants me to be happy with this kitchen but at the same time I know he thinks I am weird for thinking I need a prep sink in such a tiny kitchen. Also I think I may have found my GC and we may be able to start this kitchen in April/May! I think that is what really has head swimming--is that is going to be very real, very soon!

Congratulations! That's right around the corner...how exciting :)

So, the range against the wall to the living room? Is the fridge going on the garage wall (like your Nov. 16th plan) or on the window wall, like Buehl's plan? Do you want the peninsula 'hooked' to the range wall? Is that where you're planning to put your prep sink?

It sounds like you just need a new layout, generated on wonderful software, so you can show your GC. I'll keep helping you bump this up, until someone with much better design experience, has the time to weigh in.

Now that you have a little bigger budget...are you still thinking about soapstone countertops? Any ideas for the backsplash? Do you still want some dish storage? I'm looking forward to seeing your new kitchen come together! :)

Lavender- You are so sweet! Although I am not sure if my budget increased a ton but I got a very reasonable quote from the Chicagoans GC! So yes, soapstone is still the thought, although the GC said he could not find many vendors. I think for the bsplash we are going to go with paint and later down the road do either a white or honed carrera marble subway tile. I really love simple. I am just afraid that the look I love does not mesh with a 1950s ranch. So I am trying to keep that in mind. I understand the concept that if you have a modern house, keep the kitchen modern and if you have a craftmans bungalow it would seem to put a very modern/contemporary kitchen in the space. But I don't know what that means for my ranch?!

But after I saw your post I did try moving the Garage Door more towards the LR wall (I know, more expense) but then I could put cabinet, range, cabinet, blind corner, DW, sink, cabinet, l susan, cabinet & on the LR wall put shallow tall storage, tall storage, Fridge, tall storage. I am still not crazy about the range facing the north (my back to the rest of the rooms) but it does eliminate the need for a prep sink AND keeps the sink under the window. Although, I am not sure what to think about the peninsula on that side of the room.

Newbie- That's so funny, because after reading YOUR post, I thought...maybe the peninsula will work much better on the side of the room, you suggested! LOL

I think you make a really good point, about not wanting your back to the kitchen, while you're cooking. If you have children, that becomes an even greater concern.

Why move the garage door, if you can work with the space you have...it sounds like it will be less expense to have the prep sink! :)

I noticed someone else posted today about whether a prep sink in a small kitchen is a good idea. I was going to post the exact same question today, since I think that would help me solve some of my layout dilemmas.

Here are some layouts that I have come up with, however, I am not sure if I am in love with any of them. All three have their individual problems and I am still unsure as to how/where I would place a dining room table. I would appreciate any advice!!

1. This layout would not need a prep sink but I am concerned that I would have my back to the room when cooking. I would also have to relocate the garage door down a few feet.

If anyone has a better idea on a layout or any variations of the above, I would truly appreciate hearing from you. Also if you have a small kitchen w/o an island--let me know if a prep sink was a good idea!

Why not combine #2 and #3? If you like the fridge on that wall, I like the way it's laid out in #2 better, with the sink under the window. The door is swinging into the garage, right...so cabinet 3 should not be a problem.

Then, I'd take the bottom half of the #3 plan, with the prep sink, range and peninsula, with stools. That's a cozy layout...and why not have two sinks? Neither one is a double bowl, so you really only have the same function, as a single sink with two bowls (but better layout).

I like the dish storage/cabinets on the basement wall, in plan #3, too. How big a table do you need? Could you put a banquette, under the window, and have a small table, with a couple of chairs? Could you still access the basement stairs?

The other question I have...do you have a family/TV room in the basement? Do you need a huge amount of seating in the living room, or could you have a smaller seating area, with the ability to bring out the dining table and add a few chairs, for larger dinners?

It seems like a waste of space to try to fit a big table in the kitchen, if you don't need that seating, except when company comes over. Wouldn't it be nicer, to sit by the fire, or have a place by the window. If you have flexible chairs and a sofa that's easy to slide around, you can use your space anyway you want...and maybe have big sofas or a sectional in the basement. Maybe a sports' lounge for DH?

Lavender, you and I must think alike! After I posted, I came up with #4, which I think I like better than 2 and 3 just not sure if 1 is the better route to go?

4.

Go with #4 and save the money, you'd spend on moving the garage door...and get your countertops! :)

I think the table might work better, up by the window, so you'd have more room to enter the kitchen...and maybe put the stools back. If you took out cabinets 6 and 15, would you have room for a wider peninsula...and a few stools? What's cabinet 5?

The prep sink is nice on the peninsula, so you don't have your back to people, while you prep. What do you picture on the garage wall?

Lavender- Cabinet #5 is a tall 15" pantry cabinet so that what the fridge is not exposed. Cabinet 6 is the corner susan cabinet--so I cannot lose that, unless I can come up with a different way of making the peninsula. But you have come up with some very good ideas! I think I may be able to love Lucky No. 5!!!

The funny thing is that I have been so worried about figuring out a general layout that I have not spent any time really thinking about what items I would put where!
I guess now I have to think of where I need to put the microwave!! :)

I would still love to hear what others think!! Please tell me if you think I am missing something, or if there is a better layout option! I would love to hear any advice!
Thanks!!

Oh, it's a beautiful plan! :)

BTW- Where is everyone today?

What about the microwave on that back wall (against the garage)? It's not right next to the fridge, but it's handy to both areas...and you could install it above the counter. This might be an idea (in white, of course) if you're planning to have an appliance garage...maybe at the end of that counter?

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I'm bumping this up, hoping some other GWers will give Newbie some input. What do you think of this latest kitchen plan? Any other ideas?

Newbie- I think it looks great, but let's see if we can get some other responses :)

Thanks Lavender for your help. I just feeling indecisive and would love to hear what others thought! You do not have to be a layout guru-- I would love the opinion of anyone and everyone!! :)

.....This response is based on your comments on the Prep Sink thread.....

Your kitchen is setup almost exactly like mine. The Prep Sink is crucial to making it function well! IMHO, it's almost a "necessity" in your kitchen.

Otherwise, your sink is across a wide aisle from your cooktop and across an aisle that may have quite a bit of traffic as it's from the garage and through the kitchen. (Your kitchen is 7 or 8 inches wider than mine and I have a 6' aisle.)

My kitchen layout:

Oh, and I agree w/Davidro1 (from the Prep Sink thread), try putting the "pumpkin sink" in the corner. It not only places it closer to the range, but it also combines the two least efficient storage "methods" in a kitchen...corner and sink base. Additionally, it will move the sink further away from those sitting at the peninsula (to help prevent them from being splashed or having a faucet in their face).

You might even consider switching cabinets 9 & 10 if #10 is bigger...to give you a bit more prep space b/w the cooktop & corner. It may not be needed, but it's something to think about.

Buehl-- Thank you so much for your insight!! I have seeen photos of your kitchen and though my proposed layout seemed similar to yours but your kitchen seemed so much bigger than mine! I cannot believe my "bowling alley" is wider than anyone's kitchen. I do like the idea of the corner prep sink, especially since I will have two corner cabinets. Do you have an upper above your prep sink? How much overhang is on your peninsula? I need to be able to fit a table and four chairs in my dining area but would like fit stools under the peninsula too if I can. What kind of window do you have above your main sink? Do you find you have enough space between your peninsula fridge (32 1/8)? What is the narrrowest aisle you would recommend?

Again words cannot express how truly appreciative I am for the insight of others on this forum. My GC is great... but at the same time-- he is not this forum! I was starting to love this layout but knew it would not work without the prep sink and my DH thinks that I have spent so much time planning (off and on over 3 years) that my "wants" for the kitchen were becoming all "needs" as I saw more and more beautiful (and expensive) kitchens. I just want an efficient space that will grow with me and DH as we have a family.

Buehl- Nice layout...and I love that big bay window, over your sink!

Newbie- I think putting the prep sink in the corner, further from the main sink, may make it easier for you to 'sell' this idea to DH. It will be so much easier for more than one person to be in the kitchen, with this layout. One person can be cooking, while another is loading the dishes. Very efficient! And as you said earier, he doesn't want you 'dripping' across the new wood floors :)

Lavender- I think he will go for this layout. He will be happy that it does not involve moving the garage door AND that it will minimize me dripping water on the new floors! ;) Also I gave up on my thought of putting a patio/sliding door in the dining room along the east wall--something he was not crazy about. So I think he can live with this. He told me yesterday his biggest concern about this kitchen is making sure I am happy with it and number 2 is that we stay in budget. I do not think this second sink will really change the budget. I am just so happy that this layout may really work!! :)

Congrats! I look forward to seeing your remodel...you have a wonderful plan :)

• Do you have an upper above your prep sink?
  Ans: Yes, but just on the "back" wall. The rest of the sink is on the peninsula.

How much overhang is on your peninsula?
Ans: Seating overhang is 15" (sometimes wish it were more, btw)
What kind of window do you have above your main sink?
Ans: It's a bay window. It's also counter-height. Not sure what else you want to know...
Do you find you have enough space between your peninsula fridge (32 1/8)?
Ans: It's livable, but I wish it were more. If someone is in the refrigerator, no one can pass by.
What is the narrowest aisle you would recommend?
Ans: I would recommend 42". 36" is livable if there's no DW and no through-traffic and there's only one zone.

Buehl- Thanks for posting your layout. I did notice that what I am proposing looks very similar to yours. Have you liked your layout? I am still not 100% sold on my layout. I think the biggest thing that is bugging me is that I cannot come up with a great layout plan for the dining area. Since this will be the only dining area in the home I need to be able to accomodate a nice size table preferably with something that can I can add leaves to for parties, holidays, etc.

So I guess my questions are (1) is the best layout for the space and if so (2) how can I accomodate a decent size dining room table?

bump bump

Newbie- Maybe look for a fairly small table that can accomodate a lot of leaves. This way, it can be out of the way, for most of the time, when there's only the two of you...but morph into a larger table that seats 6-8 comfortably.

Another idea, if you just don't have a lot of floor space in the kitchen...could you keep the living room fairly flexible, incorporate comfy chairs that can be upholstered dining chairs and either use them in the dining area...or move the table out into the living room, for large parties. My mom used to do this and it worked out really well. The sofa was in front of the window, the coffee table was light weight and she just moved it out of the way, brought in the dining room table and chairs...and added the (she used wicker arm chairs) extra chairs to the table. Just an idea :)

Thanks again Lavender... can you tell decision time is getting very near! I wish I felt 100% confident with this layout! One note on the above layout. I decided to lose cabinets #13 and #20 and move the garage door over so that way cabinets #1 can be full-sized. Also prep sink is still in the corner in cabinet #8 and not in main part of the peninsula in #13.

Any other input?

I guess I am worried that although I think the kitchen layout is good (but I would appreciate any feedback) that the dining table is between a lot of doorways/entrances the first being to the kitchen, the second the entry to the dining room and the third being the back door/basement stairs. Is this a necessary evil or do you think I need to re-arrange my kitchen layout? Any advice/thoughts?

Thanks again!

Newbie- You do have a major pathway, going through your dining room. Not only is it going to the basement, but also out the back door...and that's just going to get busier, when you have kids.

What about moving the front entrance over, towards the kitchen and going back to the corner banquette idea? It would give you room for a narrow buffet, under the big window and you'd be working with your traffic patterns, not against them.

You probably wouldn't have room for the stools, but you could talk to people at the banquette, which (if done right) can be very cozy and comfortable. I hope this gives you some good ideas :)

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Thanks Lavender for the banquette suggestion! I am not sure if I can give up that much room on that wall without compromising the living room. This kitchen project is crazy. Everytime I try to make the kitchen or dining room better I am compromising (or make swiss cheese with all the holes) another room. So frustrating! I really want to be okay with this design. Also will I kick myself for not having overhang on the peninsula. Thoughts?

It's difficult, because of that back door/basement stairs. The little table you have in the other plan is cute, but the right side chair is in the doorway and might be hard to work around.

I think the kitchen layout is wonderful, but the dining area ends up feeling cramped. Can you move the dining area window over, at all? Maybe something like this? Move the fridge down by the stove (microwave across from the fridge?) and have the overhang for the stools...and room for your table, at least a smaller one. Also, more room to get to the basement/back door.

I don't think the table would seat more than three or four people, but if you could move it into the living area, for bigger parties...this might be a possibility :)

You might also want to start a new post, with the info that you can move the garage door over, and see if you get new ideas! Buehl is back and maybe you'll get more input with a new post.

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