My mother who is 82 can be a real pain in the rear with her advice whether it be that my living room needs to be uncluttered or that I looked like I have gained a few pounds. Sometimes it hurts- and sometimes it is not appreciated. But, in my heart I know she is right most of the time and it makes me think. In reality, she loves me and means well and is trying to get me on to correct things before they get out of hand. Every once in a while, I will get angry that she has implied something that hurt my feelings- but usually the hurt lasts until I realize she was trying to be of assistance and not rude. And yes, the living room was cluttered and yes indeed the scale showed a gain of weight. She did not mean to be hurtful. She was trying to tell me what others might not have- others who may have rather spoken or laughed behind my back about my looking heavy or my house being a mess. I would rather hear advice from a loved one than not hear it or be spoken about behind my back. And I usually get thinking about her words, knowing that she loves me, and will clean the living room and watch my diet better.

I have been helping my son his entire life. As I said, he often called us for help on matters as we have more life experience than he. He usually wanted our advice.

I really cannot think of talking to him in the future if I have to watch very word and think 3 times before I speak to make sure that I am not giving advice that he may not like. Let's face it, often people you love want to help you and the truth can be bitter as it is told.
In my heart I believe that my son knows that this girl is not right for him. They have broken up several times. She told him to his face that she will never love him like she loves the 2 men she dated before him who were deported back to the middle east. She told him he would never match up to these men- and that if they were not deported she would not be with him. In other words, he is third choice.

He has to spend his life apologizing to her for things she thinks have offended her. He had to rip out all the carpet in his new house after she let her dogs go all over the carpeting. This is what I think caused the rift that made her move out. He so much as told me when we im'ed last November that he did not think he meshed with the girls in the state he was living in and that he would like to leave and move back to the east coast where the girls were more compatible in terms of morality, socio economic status and values. These were his words and not mine. I took this to mean that he had serious reservations about the relationship. As we do not speak, I suspect that loneliness overtook him and he wound up going back to her as he was afraid to be alone- or conversely, perhaps she did not find true love on the net as she had hoped and came back to him. I have no idea as we do not speak. When he told me these things on im I said nothing, bad about her- I told him that it was up to him but that he should consider any move seriously as he owns a home, has a good job and is established where he is living now. I did not say move back to the east coast- dump her- whatever. I simply told him that he had a lot to consider.

By my suggesting that he get a pre nup and offering to pay for it, I was working with the details he gave me- he has doubts and apparently so does she. She was looking for other men on the net 6 months into their engagement. Anyone truly in love and getting married does not advertise on yahoo pesonals for older middle eastern men.

So, by suggesting a pre nup and offering to pay for it, I meant no harm. I was offering a means of his protecting his assets in case of a possible break up of the marriage.

Often, when people get angry at others for giving them advice it's because they know in their heart that the advice is spot on but for whatever reason they can't deal with it.

3 cases in point:

A friend's mother was on her about her filthy house. The friend got angry with her mother and banned her from ever coming into her house again. The mother is correct: the daughter's house is simply filthy and she knows it but for some reason she can't deal with it.

This same friend, years ago, was having significant difficulties in her life and I was chosen by a group of us who were very concerned about her, to approach her about getting some professional help. I was met with name calling, screaming, phone calls from her in which she would scream foul things at me and then hang-up. She needed then and still needs (see paragraph above) professional help to deal with many issues; unfortunately she's not getting it and her life is poorer for it. She has finally become civil with me again and has, in a backhanded way, said that she knows she needs help but for some reason can't take that first step.

The third case is that of my daughter who was been approached by her grandmother and me over what we saw as warning signs with the behavior of one of her children. She has not spoken to us nor have we seen her or her children since then. However, we do know that the school has started to intervene with this child and, apparently, my daughter has finally admitted to them that her son needs help. Hopefully, it's not too late. Hopefully, she will soon begin to talk to us again.

Wow - lots of advice, lots of opinions, and wondering how we became estranged.

Forms - you have written before and I appreciate your directness, but you need to respond to some of the questions posed here.

I read with interest your viewpoints to lostmama. I would like to know if you have the same advice for me. As I have stated before, when we all met to talk about giving money for the wedding, my DIL's step-mom told us we should each give $6,000 to the kids and that would cover her guests of 120, other miscellaneous wedding things, and she told my husband and I we could invite "up to 60". When I responded we would pay for "our 60" and would also pay for other wedding things, i.e. flowers, booze, my son, DIL and her parents took great offense to that. Do you think my DIL's step mom's demands were fair?

After I refused to meet my DIL's demands of us, telling us over and over that we needed to pay for this and that and we needed to pay for "more" than her parents, do you think we should have caved in and done it? When I said we would discuss this with our son, her response was "you don't need to talk to him, he agrees with everything I say". How would you have responded?

Then after the wedding, when my DIL said to my husband and I (because we didn't stay to the end of the wedding dance), "F _ _ _ You", how would you have responded?

Finally, when I sent a note to my son saying lets start 2008 out on a new slate, let me be the first to apologize for anything I might have said that offended you, but I miss you and know that our door is always open and we wil always love you -- his response to me in an email was to say he wanted no more emails, phone calls, notes, no birthday cards, nothing from us and that "he would let me know when he was up to seeing us again". What do you make of that?

I have to agree with Anniebal - this "entitlement" thing of the new generation has gotten completely out of hand. When my mother would send me news articles (her way of giving advice), I would read them and take what I wanted and then throw them away - but I didn't estrange my self from my parents.

It has been 8 months since I saw my son, 4 months since he sent the nasty email. Forms - what is your advice, should I contact him or not?

Garden60

Although I am not Forms- I have to say that your situation was really horrible!

I think that has humans we have to have some self respect. The parents of your DIL as well as your son pushed you too far. They were taking advantgae of you. They were in fact making a fool out of you.

If this happened with a co worker, neighbor or acquantaince, I am sure that you would have spoken up and said- "hey what's going on here- you are pushing this too far" and refuse to do it. Just because the offfending party is a future in law you are supposed to be disrespected, abused and made a fool out of???

What gets me is that when family is involved it is assumed that parents should bend over, take whatever is shoved their way and then say thanks and smile.

Personally, that is not how I want to live. I want to be treated with respect as I am a good person. I do not expect people to go out of their way for me but expect to be met half way.

If people take offense at things (as did my son's gf. at nearly everything everyone said) then it is THEIR probem. I take offense at not being treated with dignity and respect.

My son's gf. said "F you" not verbally but by putting nail polish on my bbathroom wall, throwing tampons in my toilet and using my bath mitt to do whatever-it was a new mitt I put out for her- it was found months later all dirty and mildewy in the back of the vanity. Who knows what that was all about.

Bottom line- if your son wants to swim with the low life then let him sink with them. You sound like a nice person and for someone to say "F you" and your son to disrespect you is NOT RIGHT!!!!!

I really do not think that it is your role to be trampled on.

If your son wants no contact- give him his wish. I have not seen my son for nearly 1 year now- today is the year anniversary of the miserable engagement party we attended. It was a day that will be remembered as one of being ignored, then totally disgusted by the way his gf. was making a fool of him. Personally, I vowed on the way home that I would never return to that state 12 hours away. I will not if he is with her. I refuse to let myself be emotionally tormented.

The last words my son said to me before storming out of our house last May was "stay out of my life." Well, that is what I am doing. I will bot allow myself to be depressed and upset by his stupidity and his gf's lack of respect.
I think your son and my son will come around.

I think what you did was perfectly correct. Do not beat yourself up. Do not lower yourself to the level oif your DIL- she is indeed a toxic person- and her parents sound like her role models.

Good luck!

//So, by suggesting a pre nup and offering to pay for it, I meant no harm. I was offering a means of his protecting his assets in case of a possible break up of the marriage.//

I understand you meant no harm, but even you have stated this is what you think lead to the estrangement and claimed you couldn't understand why. That was just one theory as to why. Clearly he's upset, and you think it's the letter and prenupt offer, and I was attempting to tie together the bits of information to find a way that it would make sense.

I KNOW you meant no harm. You seem like a lovely lady, you really do, and I mean that sincerely. Thoughtful, kind, and just devastated with pain. I'm so sorry for this thing that happened to you. I firmly believe your son will come back and rejoin the family some day. It won't be the same, but it will happen. And I think that because you do genuininely seem good.

I'm offering an idea, nothing more, take what you need and leave the rest. But even still I noticed you don't want to look at how easily your well-meaning gesture can be interpreted as offensive. Just because you wouldn't interpret it that way doesn't mean someone else would feel the same. You suspect there's something about the letter that offended him enough to cut you off. If it wasn't what I theorized, what was it?

I think it's worth really facing the fact that you mis-stepped (which is only human, and not a sign of deep control issues or other psycho-pathology, just a mis-step), because the sooner you can smooth things over, the sooner you get back the relationship you value. And if you know what it is that upset him so much, you can fix it perhaps.

But I don't KNOW what caused him to turn his back on you. It could be that you used email rather than paper, or college ruled paper rather than stationery. It could be something else that hasn't been mentioned.

Just offering ideas.

I also noticed that a lot of your post was devoted to what is wrong with your DIL and your son's relationship with her. Maybe you've got it right, and maybe you've got it wrong, but he knows all you know and STILL chooses her. In fact, when it comes to her and their relationship, he knows more than you. And she's still his choice.

Frankly, she doesn't sound like a bargain, but they will sort it out. So he gets hurt and loses money. My stepfather lost 3 fortunes and still ended up hugely wealthy. If you're smart and have ability, you can rebuild. Life stomps on everyone, it's going to stomp on your son too.

As the ex-husband says in that old Joan Crawford classic, when she is vowing that she's going to do everything for her kids, everything, everything, the ex husband says, "You can't do their crying for them."

Granted, I would not like your DIL in my house either. I think I would limit visits to short periods of time and certain rooms. If they are from out of town, I'd suggest a good hotel and just entertain them in the public rooms of my house. But they might be offended by that too. What can you say, if people are determined to be offended, they will be offended. All you can do is offer what you are comfortable offering, what you feel safe offering, and let them react as they will. And if the reaction is ugly, stay away.

If it was as good of a relationship as you say, you son will be back. He will. Maybe your fear that he won't, that this is forever, makes it hard to be anything but defensive. But you need to trust in your own value, and in the quarter century of love you showed him, and in life teaching it's own lessons. He'll be back. Give him time to grow up and learn a little about how hard life is and how nice it is to have allies and how stupid it is to alienate them.

Even if you don't figure out why he's so mad at you that he's cut you off, trust in yourself and him enough that one way or another he'll be back.

\throwing tampons in my toilet\
Where did you want her to put them? In the fridge?

Yes, fuzzy, I have 5 children: 4 sons and a daughter. My oldest two are almost on their own. I've liked all of their girlfriends, altho Son2 has a high maintenance princess who used to fluctuate between bulimia and cutting, and is still on the tailend of the problem.

I remember one day he's lying on the couch gaming and got a call from her. She's at a park about 5 miles away with her girlfriends and they wanted to play basketball. Would Son2 bring her one? She didn't 'feel like' walking down the street and getting one from her own house.

I just ducked my head down; the truth was, I wasn't sure that he wouldn't go trotting over there with a basketball. He didn't, but had he, I would have kept my mouth shut--and I would NOT have wanted to. (Fortunately, she's settled down over the last three years, and we get along very nicely).

I started letting go and shutting up about age 15-17 depending on their maturity/responsibility level. I was never a helicopter parent, but I was a stay at home parent for 15 years, and all involved in cubs, and sports, and room mother and church stuff. And still it was hard to let go (for me it involved a lot of pacing). So far it's worked out well, none of the kids drink or drug, all get good grades, and we haven't had too many problems with stupid decisions (outside the decision to jump off the roof into the pool).

All kids are different and all families are different. So my way is not THE way. My family let go of me early (I was hoofing it all over Europe in the early 80's all by myself at a very young age and with way too little money); we are very close now. But there were a couple years I didn't think much about them. My grandparents let go of my parents very early too. They married at 18 and totally supported themselves and had two babies and a house payment (my mother said she'd lay awake at night worrying how they'd pay $160 a month) a job and went to school at night by age 20. My grandparents (both sets were well off, my grandfathers were both executive with a certain auto company) insisted they make it on their own, and the only real help (except for emotional support and love) they gave was a washing machine. My grandmother could not stand it that my mother had two babies (pre Pampers), and no washing machine. She got my mom a washing machine. My parents were still walking down the street holding hands 25 years later AND ended up very well off financially. Back another generation, and again, and my grandfather left home early (his mother was dead and his father unemployed and bitter) and made his way.

So in my family, parents let go early, and it's worked out. It WAS hard. I said a lot, "That's a bummer, but I know you'll work it out." I sure was tempted to fix things for them. But instead it was, "Yes, dear. Isn't it terrible how banks work; bounce one check and they all can bounce, and the fees ARE high and it doesn't seem fair that the bank chooses to pay the highest check first, just so all the others will bounce and, no, they don't care that your boss gave you a bad check. I guess they figure that's between you and your boss. I'm sure you'll work it out." ...and... "Yes, utilities generally mean it when they say pay by five or no electricity. I know you'll get it sorted out. In the meantime, think of it as an adventure."

And they have sorted it out. And it's almost impossible NOT to help. I know hundreds of excuses swirl through my head: it's harder for kids these days, everything costs more, kids are more immature, maybe most kids can handle it, but THIS one (my precious son) can't (wrongo), etc...

It works for us. Will there be bumpy times ahead? Absolutely. Son4 is going to be a handful and I doubt that we will be able to keep him home until 18 and HS graduation. His bio-mom and her two brothers are totally disabled by schizophrenia, and at age 11, he's a big concern. I think husband and I are going to have to let go of him earlier than the others--he's going to demand it.

Large families work differently than small ones. A couple with an only child is a very different dynamic than a couple with 5 kids. And if one of my kids gets himself/herself worked up into a pout and pet and decides, "I'm never going to talk to you again", it wouldn't empty out the family portion of our lives the way it would for someone who has one. My motherhood eggs aren't all in one basket. If one refuses to come for Xmas or call on mother's day, the others will. I don't believe all five would shun me all at the same time, and if they did then the fault is mine. If you have several children and none of them want to interact with you as adults, you blew it as a parent. It's not them, not who they marry, not their mental illness--it's you. And I'd face up to the fact it WAS me. Trust me, I already have apologized for my less the optimal mothering moments. I sure have had them. Sure have.

I also have a couple other things going in my favor. I have a very cool, very glamorous job, the type they make tv shows and movies about. And I'm an introvert, I have no trouble finding things to do or being by myself. I have plans for the future that don't involve my kids: I intend to get a Ph.D in history; I have a couple long term projects; I'm renovating a historic house, love to travel. I have a good marriage and good partner; and I have a very nice group of long term comfortable intimate friends. WHen the last one moves off into adulthood, I'll be ready to get busy with all the things I've had to put on hold all these years. It'll be a different phase in life, and I think it will be as good as the hands on mother phase.

Who knows what will happen or what life will throw. I just trust. I trust in God, I trust in goodness, I trust in people I love. Of course, I've put myself in the shoes of some of these heartbroken women here and have thought...what if that were me...? And just imagining it, fear clutches at my heart. You ladies have my deepest sympathy. But for me, there's also serenity. I absolutely believe estranged children will return. Absolutely believe it. And if I'm proved wrong I'll die believing they will return--they were just delayed at coming to my deathbed. I believe most of your children will come back too.

In college I was a court reporter. I type 120 on a keyboard. My machine is hooked up to my computer. I can type up to 180 a minute, so my posts can be long. I assume most people skip or skim them, or that most go unread. I'm not offended.

Forms, I still find your newest post to lostmama very interesting. You state in one breath that lostmama is still not admitting what she said regarding the pre-nup to be the cause of the problem. However, later in another post you state:

"What can you say, if people are determined to be offended, they will be offended. All you can do is offer what you are comfortable offering, what you feel safe offering, and let them react as they will. And if the reaction is ugly, stay away."

Your totally contradicting yourself. Either lostmama is to blame (at least according to you, it is very black and white,)or her son and his wife will find fault if that's what they are looking for. So which is it?

I still marvel at your judgments and self righteouness in doing so. You state your an introvert? I find that very hard to believe.

Your parenting sounds interesting in that you are a hands on mom, or were, but now basically it's get out of the house so I can do what I want.

Just because someone has one child, or 8 kids, I don't think that makes it that much easier (as you imply) if one should shun you. To me that sounds very cold hearted, and unrealistic. If you haven't lived this situation, then you have no idea the amount of pain it causes, regardless of how many children you have. Of course that is if one loved/loves all their children equally? We know as parents that we love each child for their own unique personality & traits, however we still love them all the same. HOw would it be possible to love all your children and have one leave your life with little to no explanation, and not be devastated by it?

In a book I read regarding estrangements, the psychologist stated that in many ways estrangement is worse then death. The reason being is that the child is choosing to alienate themselves from the parents, and no one chooses death aside from a suicide. In other words, our estrangements from our child/children are equivalent to them taking their own life.

Who are you to come up with the conclusion that if one has more then one adult child not talking to them that it's the parents fault?!! Talk about jumping to conclusions. Are you some kind of expert in this field? I admit that if one had more then one child estranged that it would be easy to believe it was the parents fault, but there are so many other cirumstances that could be involved that any outsider is just not knowledgeable about to understand.

Children of divorced parents could easily fit the pattern of both being estranged. The divorce is traumatic, and depending on how things are settled, how the times is divided up between the parents, whether or not the parents can still carry on as friends, etc.etc.

Wow, you have a cool, glamorous job......I'm so impressed. Can you brag anymore about yourself? It sure seems like the perfect mom, quasi-psychiatrist, perfect woman/mother, fabulous worker, Guiness book typist, and the envy of everyone including hollywood would surely have better things to do then post on this forum?? Maybe you should open your own clinic in addition to your glamorous job?

It sounds like your friends may be bigger in your life then your children? If that's your cup of tea, great, but most of us want to continue a real connection with our children...and they come first.

lostmama, you stated that you son was told you he was in agreement about getting the pre-nup when you suggested it to him. I stated before, and I stand by it, that he was fine with it. However, once his girl found out he was considering a pre-nup, she probably had a hissy fit. In order to get himself out of hot water, he probably blamed you for putting the idea in his head.

Just because he is still with this girl doesn't mean it is love, Forms! How naive can one be? I think many of our children have married people who are controlling, abusive, manipulating users. These people have refined the art of manipulation to the max. Put them with a more naive, trusting, inexperienced person and you have all the fixins' for brainwashing.

Garden60 and my sons situation are almost identical. We both have dil's that are toxic. I also feel that lostmama's dil? is toxic, a loser and a user. Just as my son had a zillion red flags flying up all over the place before he said his vows, lostmama's dil was looking for other men 6 months before they got married! That is not normal, and I would be she has something a little bit off kilter in the mental health department. She has probably convinced lostmama's son that he doesn't deserve her, that he'd be nothing without her, that no one would want him, that he is lucky to have her, etc.etc. That is how those people (men and women) work. They are emotional abusers.

Lostmama's advice was nothing more then most parents would do if they were concerned. As I asked in another post, just how long does a child feel they have the right to remain mad and carry a grudge over something that was said to them by their parents? How long does one carry that crutch around and feel justified? Don't we all face hurdles all the time, tactless remarks, irresponsible actions, and yet how many of us alienate ourselves from the person responsible? It's one thing to dicard a friend over such infractions, but family is far too important for that.

This is how my dil twisted my sons brain (or at least in my opinion, on just one of too many occassion!)

I meet with my son for coffee last summer, and he wants to talk. I tell him to go ahead, and he starts telling me things that bother him. I listen patiently and comment when I feel it is appropriate. However, then he tells me this outlandish remark that I said to him regarding his wife, and how it was not acceptable. My son told me that I stated his wife was an 'awful and horrible person.' I was shocked, and immediately stated that I never said that about his wife. He insisted I did, and had the message on his phone to prove it. He asked if I wanted him to get it and let me see it, and I said YES! After getting the message out, he reads to me aloud: "I'm sure you wife has convinced you of what awful, horrible parents you have." WOW, this was a huge difference, yet my sons reaction was cool. He commented that 'oh, it's not what I thought,' and that was the end of it. There was nothing that indicated to me that he realized what a huge difference that was in wording.

I can see my son getting it mixed up himself, or I could also see my dil twisting it around, so that he believe it was as he stated it to me.

I often wondered by his response, if he didn't go back to her and talk to her about the mistake, but I seriously doubt it. My son doesn't doubt a word this deviate says. He needs to wisen up, get more worldly, mature, realize he has her wrapped around his fingers, and start taking control of his own life. Until this happens, he will continue to be abused, manipulated and mislead by her.

I know my sarcasm is way out of hand, but I just couldn't take reading anymore of her outrageous post (yes, forms...yours!)

anniebal

After reading the last few entries, I have to say thank you to Forms for offering her opinions and insights. We all don't have to see the picture the same way and we even glean something from another person's point of view. I especially liked Forms' comment "You can't do their crying for them." But they are our children, and each generation wants better for their children; I remember my mother telling me that.

I am a bit confused on Forms children. At first I read it to be that your 5 children are still in high school/college but later on it seems most are already out of the house except for the 11-year-old and you talk about his bio mom. Did you adopt him?

Anniebal and I have a huge fault - we love our sons and want the best for them. No one wants to see their child hurt and if they have to take tumbles along life, that is good for their growing and maturing, but the two women our sons married are unbelievable. Never in my life did I ever think either of my sons would marry someone like my younger son did.

My DIL told my girlfriend when she got back with my son "once you find what you want, you NEVER let it go". Humm, she was the one who dumped HIM 5 years earlier because he wanted her to go to church with him and she told him she has no time in her life for church or any of that. She remains an athiest; my son is so blinded by her that he thinks he can bring her to Christ and gives himself 10 years to do it. I hope and pray he can do that.

Everyone that has known my son since he was born are devastated by the behavior he exhibited since she came back into his life. He allowed her to start telling us off, he knew she was hurting us, but he wanted her so bad he couldn't see clearly, even to the point of telling me he no longer needed Christianity because they now "had their own faith". What kind of faith is that? Well, they didn't know but it would not invovle a church.

Forms - I need to know what your reaction would have been if your son and his new bride had come to your house and started to swear at you because you didn't stay to the end of their wedding reception and then when I told my DIL that she had to stop swearing, she responded with "F _ _ _ You!" and walked out.

My son has crohn's disease and the stress of that event caused him great physical pain so he told me he wants no contact with me whatsoever. He put my work number on his medical contacts and I was recently called about more test results. Humm, guess he is having more pain caused by more stress. And this time it isn't "my fault" because I have had no contact with him whatsoever for 4 months as he requested.

Our family was very close, sports events, church events, social events. Every holiday was an excuse to have a party, kids included. On Halloween we would gather all the neighborhood kids to help, take all the furniture out of our first level and make it into a haunted house, admission was food for the local foodshelf, then after the doors were closed we would all eat pizza, drink pop and talk about the fun we had just had. At the Christmas holiday families would gather at our house and go Christmas caroling up and down the streets, then come back for games and snacks. And there were many more events. Our house was open to everyone, young and old, who just needed a place to hang out. With all of that in my son's upbringing, we can't understand how easily he could just close the door on it.

No, as long as my DIL is in my son's life, I am convinced he won't ever be back.

My son also was raised as a Chritian, went to church each week, through Catholic shool for 12 years. He was a moral good person. We were a great family.

I found a note while cleaning yesterday from him after he was in college for one week. We had such a great relationship, free communication- I thought what I would give to have that back even for one day!!!

We always wanted the best for him- and never thought that he chase us home after graduation, threaten to throw me down the stairs as he believed the lies his gf. told over my word, ignore his grandmother, refuse to come out when his father was seriously ill in the hopsital, refuse to come here for holidays, never call us unless he wanted something.

Some people on the board have said that my problem is the money angle. Well, perhaps this is part of the problem, I agree. But, my son has a grandmother who is worth a considerable amount of money& he was supposed to get 1/2 of that estate. His gf. found out as he mentioned it in passing like a fool and suddenly true love blossomed. On one occasion, he im'ed me to ask how much his grandmothers was worth, whether he would be left her house- and when he would be getting the money. Well, this was the ultimate in nerve. My mother is not dead, the house is not being left to him and the gf. was in the background asking other questions for him to type in. She in fact im'ed me the next day after looking at my mother's house on zillow and disputed whether the house had an attached tennis court. I found this very disturbing but also telling she was interested in the inheritance he was to get- Was is the word- the will has been changed and his is excluded. All the while she checked out his assets, she was on personal sites looking for other men. I came across the postings and was disgusted.

My mother never expected to be thanked every day- but after she paid for his entire education thru grad school he never as much said thanks, called her on any birthday, Christmas or holiday. This is her ONLY grandchild. She is very hurt. I am ashamed of raising such an ungrateful person.

As for my husband and I- we also have money that will have to be passed along- not to him unfortunately. Some people think we are hoilding money over his head- well when there is nothing else to hold what can you do??? We have nothing else. We gave him love, a great childhood, education and every opportunity possible and have gotten ignored and disrespected. So groups that will appreciate the money will receive it on our passing.

Neighbors who often saw my son and I walking- as he enjoyed walking and talking with me ask me how he is doing. When I told two of them the story they were amazed. One told me that we had the storybook family- the American Dream- everything we wanted. Now, we have everything except the son who loves us. We have no idea what happened to him to make him like this.

I am also convinced that as long as this fiance or wife is in the picture that we have no hopes of seeing him. He has chosen her over us and I wish them all the luck.

He seems to discard people after he no longer in need of them- i.e.-refused to contact his HS Spanish teacher/mentpor, pledged to his school then said to heck with them after he graduated, has thrown us all away.

lostmama- our stories are pretty similar, except my husband and I aren't wealthy, but even with what we own and our investments, I changed our will. If, someday, my son comes back into our lives and after a very long period of time, we will change it back to include him, but it won't happen until years later when I am confident the "aliens" have left his body and mind.

In my case, our family chose to side with me and that really made my son/DIL mad. She thought she could work her magic through my son to "get rid of me" but still his aunt/uncle/cousins would all think my son/DIL were great. But his plan backfired, so now he is alone.

While he used to have a heart of gold and he aimed to please, he is also strong willed and because of that, I don't think he will ever be back as that would mean he would have to acknowledge his immaturity and crazy behavior.

I have apologized all I can; he has said I am NOT to contact him and "he will let me know when he is ready for a relationship again" - in other words, on his terms. Sadly, the longer he is estranged, the less his absence from family gatherings is even noticed any more.

First I have to say.. garden60.. DITTO..
Second,
Dear Group...

I have been a member for some time. I don't post often, but read your posts daily looking for comfort and answers. I am estranged from my two sons (24 & 26) .. it is all a very silly story as to how this situation occurred.. seems like such a "trumped up" charge in the scheme of life, but none the less.. it has happened. It happened under the guidance of my future DIL and my oldest son, they whisked away my younger son and now they all live happily ever after. After much soul searching, reading Mark Sichel's books, Josh Coleman's books and several others, i have not found answers, but I have found many many parents in the same position. Parents who have done the best they could for their children.. this has included.. great schools, love and support, attending games, always being there for their children, scrimping and sacrificing, yet somehow their children turn around at some point and say..
"I am done with you"... I, like others, am still scratching my head and trying to figure out what happened. I would love to have a conversation and would be more than willing to do my part to figure out what might be needed to go forward, but unfortunately, they are not interested. I have offered to agree to disagree more than once.
In light of all, i would like to help others who might be headed down the same path. I have decided that I would like to do a documentary on this issue. I feel that there needs to be a social conversation on the topic of estrangement. Are there things that we are doing as parents that are contributing to a child's ability to think it right to cut us off ? I realize that there are many times that estrangement is necessary for the mental health of all. I know that many of you have posted that it was a decision that you have to make as your family is toxic. I understand... however, I am interested in exploring the 2 sides of the story when real physical and traditional definitions of emotional abuse do not exist.

I have been in touch with Mark Sichel and Joshua Coleman.. they have agreed to help.. as has Nancy Richards. I want to
be completely fair to all sides, I just feel that estrangement is happening more and more and so many people on all sides are in such pain.. there must be a way to create conversation. Our families are the places that we learn the way we deal with society.. what will our society become if we just cut our families off and have no social conscience about making sure that the people closest to us are safe.

I am writing this to you to ask if any of you are willing to participate on camera. If so.. please send me a note.. I am interested in all sides of the story, whether you are an adult child who has had to cut himself or herself off from your family, or whether you are a parent whose child has cut you off.. please let me know if you would like to tell your story on camera. I am hopeful for people in the NY,CT, NJ area first.. but anyone else.. please feel free to contact me as well.

If you have any questions, please let me know! I look forward to hearing from you...

Sincerely,

Sarahsmom
evagnoni@aol.com

PS.. whoever made the comments about Coleman's advice..I agree. I spent some time on the phone as well...:-(

I entered two posts for Labmama (and anyone else) on the post "For those whose adult children are estranged".

Again, in "no way" am I trying to blame one side or the other when an estrangement occurs. And yet, unless each side is willing to actually consider that they may have some part in the situation, how can healing ever occur?

bnicebkind, of course there is some wrong on each side, I don't think anyone is debating that issue. However, I feel the wrong we may have commited was definitely brought on by the impossible role of pleasing our dil. We finally maxed out on our patience, and made her own up to her moody, withdrawn behavior during an all expense paid vacation to Hawaii for 10 days by her terrible in laws! We probably made her pretty uncomfortable mentioning her moods to my son (not till the last 2 days of the trip mind you.) However, we had every right to be upset.

Sarahsmom, I'd love to participate in some way, shape or form, but I don't know if I'm willing to go on camera or on record as myself.

Sarahsmom, I do believe it is something we as society have done that is causing this and that is that the main focus on children now is building up their esteem. It has reached a rediculous level, even going as far as praising them for poor grades, or finishing last. All this feel good stuff has consequences, and I truly feel our children feel they hvae the right to ridicule us, and expect certain behavior and material items from us. I would have loved to gone to college on my parents tab, but they couldn't afford it. Today's kids don't think about what the cost is, they just assume they are going and we will pay. Life for this younger generation has been given them everything on a golden platter (not all certainly, but a very large number.) Our kids were raised with fashion at the forefront. If you didn't have Nike's, Adidas, etc. you weren't cool. Our lives revolved around our children, we did everything possible for them hardly drawing the line anywhere about where we took them, how much we spent, going far above and beyond what our parents or any other past generations parents did.

These kids definitely expect us to live up to their standards. There is no give and take, it is selfish behavior, centered on their happiness entirely.

Why should they give in to less then perfect parents who happened to criticize or give an opinion that they don't like. They don't need us, afterall this is the "Friends" generation (which someone mentioned in another post, and I entirely agree.) Our kids have their friends, and if all their friends feel the same...it must be right.

Anniebal

Anniebal - I couldn't agree more. You are 100% accurate in what you say about our children and their attitude of "entitlement". So when my DIL heard my son say how much he had done with his family, trips, dinners, college, etc., she saw an opportunity to take advantage. What he forgot to tell her, however, was that you don't swear at my parents or tell them off to get what you want. If my son never swore at me, why would I accept that kind of behavior from a DIL? Not!!!

Hi,
I just found this forum today. I am 44, and my daughter became estranged from our family almost 9 years ago when she was 17. Yes, our family was dysfunctional in many ways - in fact, the "family" that was there is now completely broken apart. I guess I would be considered an "enabler" at that time - but I was trying to hold my family together and keep the peace.
I miss my daughter dearly and I've never been given the chance to try and repair damages, or begin a new relationship with her. Nothing I do can earn the chance and it is so painful and frustrating.
My mother and sister are in pretty close contact with her. Recently, just 4 days ago, I pretty much lost it with them - I had asked them not to speak about her to me, because it rubs salt in the wounds of having lost her. Mom went into great detail about an event that they were a part of. I wrote them an email the next day and told them I did not want to speak with them for sometime because I had never received support from them.
I never did this before. This hurt is making me bitter, and I don't like the person I am becoming - I want my mom to feel my pain. And, her pain now doesn't make me happy. On the other hand, my 2nd husband has encouraged me to stand up for myself because I never did before. He says they (mom & sis) DO owe me some support. Please help. I am so confused.
I plan to read more of the past logs tonight to try and get some healthy perspectives. Please don't be nasty in your replies, I've had about as much as I can take. But I do welcome contructive advice.

Cara1981, I couldn't agree with you more about deserving support & loyalty from your family members. This has been a main issue for me with our extended family, on both sides! Every since our estrangement 9 months ago, everyone in the family has acted as if my son & dil have done no wrong. WHen they attend events with them, everyone welcomes them warmly and carries on as if they have done no wrong. WE put up with this until February of this year, when I finally told my sister that I won't be at the same event as my son again, so she can either invite me/us or him.

It is so very painful to have your child at the same event, yucking it up with your sister, brother, cousins, etc. and ignoring us. The only way my son would talk is if I or my hubby said something to him. My husband refused to start any dialect with him, but I did have one opportunity that I finally jumped in on. He and my brother were talking, so I just butted in. However, my son wouldn't keep up the conversation, he just answered the question. Right after my very short exchange with him, he actually text message his brother who was right next to me on the couch, and asked him a question about us. Much to my younger sons credit, he told my son if you want to know, ask her yourself, she is right here! My son actually did ask me the question he wanted to know, but then it was back to being nice to everyone but us again.

That was the final straw. We were forced to see them at my nieces b-day party after Thanksgiving too, and aside from greeting them (which is very pretentious to say the least,) we had no interactions with them. I did at one point try to get in on a conversation between my two sons, but I got nothing but a cool response in return.

None of our family members have said anything to him, other than his brother and my mil. My mil had told my son several times that he should apologize for what he had said to me the night the estrangement started. In order to make her happy, he took a very cheap way of being able to say he apologized, by adding it in an email reply to me, sort of as a 'oh, by the way.' It meant nothing to me.

My sil's told me that they would let him know that they are standing by us, and that they feel he is wrong, but didn't follow through. To top it off, now I heard from my sil how basically the disagreement was caused by me, and between me and my dil. She stated that my husband was supporting me, and my son was just supporting his wife! My sil told me that after what I had called his wife, how could she (dil) ever forgive me!!!

The night we had the arguement, when emotions were very high, I called his wife the B word, for which my son replied in a split second to his mom 'f'ing B.'

Mind you I apologize within a few days time, yet my son never did. I had to email her the apology since I wasn't about to call her, and I doubt she would have answered my call anyway (in fact I know she wouldn't have answered it.) I did a return receipt so that I'd know she got it, but I never received the receipt back. HOwever I did copy my son also, and I did receive the receipt back that he had opened it.

I'm done counting on family. I told my husband I don't know what to trust anymore since so much of what I thought I knew has fallen apart. I know I would be standing up for my brother, sister, or husbands sisters, yet we get nothing from them.

So, it's over. From now on they can party hardy with my son and his wife since as my sil stated, 'she loves everybody the same.' PLEEEEZZZZZZ. That is the biggest whimp out ever. The family is a bunch of enablers having been raised by two alcoholics, and in all honesty they cannot confront problems or real issues.

My side is no better however, though my bro & sis finally agreed they won't invite him to anything we are at. At least that is something.

It is so painful to hear about your child from your other family members. I feel your pain Cara, I really do. When my brother saw my son just past the Christmas Holidays and told me all about what my son was doing now, what gifts he got, etc. it made me hurt so much inside. I looked at my husband across the room and I could see the tension building in his face, he wouldn't even join the conversation regarding my son. I certainly didn't ask my brother about the visit, nor did I encourage it. In fact, I had told my brother that perhaps if my son does come over he could say something to my son in a non-confrontationwal tone, something like: "when are you going to open communication with your m & d again?" Or, he could have told him that things will never heal if my son doesn't communicate with us, but no, my bro didn't feel the time was right. Now mind you, he hardly see's my son, so when is the time going to be right? My bro won't call him and talk to him, so it's just never going to happen.

My bro finally agreed not to invite him anymore, and if my son calls him to ask why that he is going to tell him that he is against what my son is doing and he supports us.

I know what you mean by feeling bitter, I myself have been there, and am still struggling with it.

I don't blame you for losing it! I really think you should be able to count on your mom and sister to stand by you on this, and perhaps if they did it would help resolve the issues between you and your daughter. That's exactly what I would tell them too. I'd also let them know how hurtful it is that they continue this relationship despite knowing your daughter isn't talking to you and won't even try.

This estrangement thing is awful, and Garden60 and I have very similar stories. In addition, Garden60 and I both became estranged in the last year.

Supposedly my son wants to open a line of communication with us again (as he stated in a much surprised mother's day card he sent me.) However, in the card he said "you can call me now." I love that he is giving us permission to call him. The way I feel now is that he can call us, and I told him so in the b-day card I sent him. I was very sweet in the card but not over board. I told him to call us when he is back in the country, and that we look forward to hearing from him. Now it's in his court.

I don't see anything changing as long as my dil is in the picture. She is toxic! We bent over backwards trying to please her only to have our son never acknowledge how we tried, or what we did. Instead, he acted oblivious to our feelings, while making us cater to her overly dramatized hurt feelings.

She ruined our trip to Hawaii last year, which is what started the estrangement. She has never liked us, since she started dating my son. My dil had an agenda, and that was to marry my son and divide him from his family. She is narcisstic, which means she can only express real love for herself. She thinks she is superior to everyone else, and belittles my son. Our dil has manipulation and power plays down to a science, and has used them to brainwash our son. I know this sounds extreme, but it is true.

My son was very inexperienced, naive and sweet when he met this woman, who knew all too well what to do to snag him.

Stand your ground Cara, I feel very strongly family must participate. Garden60 has had that support from her family, and it helps her a great deal.

anniebal

Ewww, this is tough reading for me. My daughter could be the one you are all talking about.
All I can say is when it comes to coping with a narcissist you are all well within normal responses to be utterly confused and bewildered. That is how they do what they do, it is part of their agenda. So too is separating people from one another. Much like a predator will cut one off the herd.
I feel like I may know your sons. My SIL has shrivelled under the influence of his relationship with my daughter. He rarely expresses a thought and never an opinion. I have seen her reduce him to silence with nothing more than a glance. Although he still communicates with his mother, I am almost certain if she told him to stop he would. The power and control she has is mind boggling, and extremely unhealthy.

Part of the reason we are estranged is I choose to become involved, encouraging therapy, I tried to intervene for the sake of the wellbeing of their family, as well as my own. By suggesting that I was aware of her tactics I have been fiercely outcast. He, my SIL, sadly does not have enough back bone left in him to do anything about it, not right now anyway. I believe he will not tolerate her forever, but how much longer he will stay, is hard to say. With each passing day, with each insult and belittlement he gets a little weaker.

I did my best to validate him and the suffering he endures. I let him know he is not alone and that I see what is happening to him. That I know what it feels like because she tries her best to do the same to me, and has done for years. I know how she shames, manipulates, ridicules, and punishes. I know how she takes advantage once she has you down on the ground. He knows I know, he knows he is not as isolated as he feels, I made sure of that. Although they no longer speak to me, my hope is that I have planted enough seeds in his consciousness to at least begin to question the absurd unfairness of her actions.

It is my opinion that if you surrender to a narcissist you can kiss off any hope of ever being treated like a human being again. You must stand your ground, but know, they rarely change, but they do tend to get worse, especially when confronted. They are unreachable because they hear only what they want to hear, they distort reality, and most important when it comes to this idea that communication is the key - they do not listen because they do not care. Other peoples feelings do not matter to them. The only way to respond to narcissism is with silence. Anything you say or do WILL be used against you, no matter how rational, kind, sensible or sincere it is.

As for your sons, the best suggestion I have is to do what you are doing, make sure you do not feed her power, and make sure he knows when and if he climbs out from under her thumb he has a place to go. Leaving a narcissist is one of the most difficult of all relationship dysfunctions. I know because I have had to do it myself. They are cruel beyond belief.

Penny4thought, this is by far the best post I have read on this thread for a long, long time. Thank you so very much.

It must have taken a great deal of courage for you to address your situation.

Thank you for validating what so many of us, whether mothers of sons or daughters, are experiencing because of their choice of mates. Thank you for explaining to others who seem to believe that some of us are not doing enough to win our children back why reaching out to them is difficult or impossible.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Thank you so much, cara1981 and penny4thought, for sharing. I think the healthiest thing for me has been reading these posts. While I want NO ONE to ever have to go through what I am going through, by your writings I am learning that the loss of my son is not entirely my fault. As mothers we all want to "take the blame" and "make things right". As said, NPD is a nasty thing to have to compete with, and for Anniebal and I, we are not only competing with NPD DILs, but sons who are infatuated beyond belief with these women.

Anniebal gave the $$ they asked for prior to and up to the wedding; I did not; yet, we are both in the same place.

It doesn't matter what we do or don't do. I think the best thing we can do is practice silence. Since my son sent me the nasty email about no more contact, that is exactly what he is getting. Knowing my DIL like I do, I am sure every day she is asking "well, did your mom give in and email you?" NOT!!!

Anniebal - I think you really handled your response well and it helped that he was in Mexico. That gave you a perfect way to respond and drop the ball in his park to contact you.

I have been fortunate, my family has standed by my husband and I through all of this and have basically told my son that first he fixes it with me. Not in those direct words, but they have all just stopped communicating with him.

If my family was supporting him, then I would not attend their functions or communcate with them. I would find other family. And while there is nothing as wonderful as your blood family, I am learning there are so many people who need friendship. This past Christmas we invited 3 people who would otherwise have been alone (since my son and DIL did not want to come) and we had the best Christmas ever! We laughed, ate, drank wine, went to church, and quite frankly, didn't miss my son or even talk about him.

Cara1981 - I am so glad you found us. We all need to share our strengths as we have them with each other. Some days I am so sad but I am getting better at facing what is ahead of me - that being probably never seeing my son again.

thank you njtea, you are right, it did (and still does) take a lot to come to terms with the ugly facts. Every bit of me wanted to deny what I saw and heard, turn away from the truth. But the evidence gradually became overwhelming.

Cara, I have been fortunate that my family and friends have been quite supportive, but then, each of them have at one time or another seen for themselves how nasty and abusive she can be. She is not selective who she dumps on, when or where. I have not had to try to convince others of what I am up against. Most of my family has over the years tried to intervene and offer help, all of them have hoped along with me that things would change for the better. Almost all of them have been taken advantage of, dismissed or betrayed. We have collectively been defeated.

If I were in your shoes, and my family was not supportive, or even considerate of my pain, like Garden60 I would distance myself from them as well. We must learn to protect ourselves when we are dealing with children and family members who handle our hearts so carelessly. I tend to agree with your husband, you deserve and need support. Trying to break the patterns of enabling and dysfunction is worthy of help, but sadly, is rarely if ever supported by others who are not interested in breaking the patterns themselves. You may find you will have to walk much of the path alone, but trust that with that predicatable pattern comes the fact that in each family that breaks the cycle there is a leader, one who blazes the trail, and it is not uncommon for others to follow later. Perhaps you are a trail blazer.

I was surfing - actually looking for any writing about giving your estranged child the "silent treatment" and would they even care, when I ran across this:

BEGINNING:Where do I begin? It doesn't matter what you do or don't do if you have the misfortune of having sons only.

The women of today are demanding, spoiled, controlling, rude and their sole purpose is to drive the MIL away at all cost.

Don't say you don't....you do. You're jealous and mean. When a Mother posts online about her DIL's behavior, you spit at her with the venom of a snake. Listen to yourselves.

You call the family, "faaaaaaaaaaaaamily" and get togethers, "craptactulars". You know what you're doing.

As the one in the last post said, "honey, if he can drive his Mother out of his life, he can send you packing too". Don't forget that.

Don't tell me that "no one can drive a person away from someone they love" because they can.

With a constant drumbeat of critical comments from you, her son starts looking at his mother from your point of view.

I've read about all there is to say about MIL's and DIL's. I've searched every line and read every book out there. There is no way to be a part of their lives. No way. Family, as we once knew it is gone. Gone forever, I'm afraid.

What has been done to us has been a crime. It is far worse than death. To have to bury your son while he is still alive is unbearable. I hope to God that it doesn't happen to you. You and your "boundaries" will come back to haunt you.

You would never allow your Husband to talk about your Mother that way, would you? Oh, I know, she's perfect, isn't she? Would it hurt you if he said, "I will not allow your Mother in my house"? Is he rude to her? No, he isn't and do you know why??? Because WE raised him right. What happened to you? END

BOY - whoever wrote this was right on the mark! I couldn't have said it better myself.

Wow, I want to thank all of you for your encouraging words & support! I should have looked for a site like this a long time ago.
Thanks, Penny... I still blame myself (and deservedly so) for alot of the pain that my daughter endured. I did not do enough for her as a child. Sometimes when you are in the situation for years, you don't know how bad it was. That's not an excuse, but just a statement of truth. She was the first to get outside help and break away. While she was doing that, I was just focusing on trying to keep the family together, and could not understand her "desertion."
Annibal and Garden...how long have you been separated from your sons? And did the separations happen after DIL's were in the picture, or were there signs before? I hope for both of you that you have healing before a lot of time passes. My daughter has got herself back on track, and is happy in her life without me. I am happy for her, but my pain just does not subside. I can go for along time and not dwell on it, but when something like the event I described in my first post happens, the scab comes off and it is like everything happened yesterday.
Like your son, Garden, my daughter is very strong-willed. I only wish that she had it in her heart to forgive me. Instead, anything I did over the years to try and mend things, she regarded as manipulative. Even when I gave her a small amount of money, she accused me of trying to buy her affection! NOT!! It truly hurt to see the gift seen as that.
Lostmama, I am going to check out the authors you have mentioned, Sichel & Coleman.
Just a little more info... my daughter actually filed for emancipation, and we went through that even though she was only about 6 months from turning 18 (she ran away from our home at 17 to stay with others after a court had ruled that there were no grounds for her initial charges and was returned to our custody - but we made arrangements with another family for her to stay there because she and my husband at the time (her dad) could not exist together peacefully). She was successful in her emancipation case because we did not fight her on it.
I truly think at some point she had an emotional breakdown.
Even last night, I was wavering on whether I am doing the best thing in not speaking with mom & my sister. Two things stopped me: my mom called and left a message 2 nights ago to ask my husband if he was still going to help her open the pool this year even if I wasn't talking to her (she did break-up when she said that, but offered no apology or any inkling she would be supportive of me or my feelings), and the situation has not changed in that I find the idea of them at some point in the future of attending her wedding, or knowing my future grandchildren, without me in the picture. I can't handle being on the sidelines of that, and I think the best thing is to cut the ties. But God, it hurts.
Thank you all again. I wish you a great Memorial Day weekend :)

Garden60...You are amazingly naive in your post, if you actually believe that there are not mother-in-law's out there who are not also mean spirited, demanding, jealous, controlling, spoiled, and manipulative. If you want us to take your post's seriously, then do not attempt to bury the truth, and try and convince us that all of the mother-in-laws are innocent of the behavior you attach to these younger women. It exists in both generations. And many a mother in law has created great pain, or run off a daughter in law through destructive behavior.

I cannot imagine that your need to prove that your daughter in law is entirely to blame will EVER get you what you want, and that is to heal the relationship with your son. This is now your son's wife. For better or worse, this is who your son has chosen.

I can hear Dr. Phil saying "Do you want to be right, or do you want to be happy". Trying to convince your son and everyone else that everything is "her" fault, will only continue to keep the estrangement going. You may be absolutely right, but being right, will probably never get you what you want, and I would imagine, that is a chance to start all over, with a clean slate, and being a part of your son's life.

I would imagine that for your (well raised) fine son to ask you not to call, e-mail, or write so much as a birthday card, must indicate that he believes that you have some part in the situation that has occurred. Otherwise, why would he take such a strong position? The only way to find healing is to get past your "need" to place all of the blame on her shoulders. You must ponder, consider, and be open to the possibility that you have some part in this, and if so, you must not be quick to minimize "your" part and brush it aside, while maximizing her part in this. You must try and see this from her point of view, and your son's. But to simply dismiss your possible part in this situation, or minimize your part and brush it off, will not bring about what you need the most. Healing. And at this point, I doubt either your son, or her wants to hear "your side" of this to justify how "bad" she is.

I want to say with all sincerity, that I am not saying that you have fault in this. I have no way of knowing this. But you have to actually be open to "consider" that you might, for your son to take such a position.

I would imagine if you can find that you had some part in this, that perhaps your rage over the injustice of what happened may be somewhat decreased.

I also want to validate what you have written. You might just be right. She may simply be a destructive human being. And if that is the case, how sad for your son. But if that is the case, your son will have many clues along the way, and will decide what to do from here. What a sad way to begin his marriage. There is no real peace in what they are doing. It may appear so for awhile. But at some point I imagine he will grow to resent what his relationship with her cost him, and he will resent her for the position he now finds himself in. She may feel that she has won for now, but she will find that what she is asking of him costs him dearly, and that love cannot blossom in such tainted soil. At some point, he won't see her through eyes filled with love, but with the truth of what he lost because of her. And he will resent her for it.

I was in the car today and while flipping channels on the radio I heard the speaker talk about what to do when your enemy is a member of your own family. When the pain they have inflicted, and continue to inflict is tremendous. How does one forgive such a person, when the person who has hurt them dearly is not just some person out there, but someone in their own family. He has written a book titled: "The Healing Power of Forgiveness" by Dr. Ray Pritchard. (I do not know if the spelling is correct). I believe it was written from a biblical viewpoint, and I did not get to hear the whole program as I had an appointment, but he made a lot of sense. Perhaps you will find some sort of peace through what he has written. I wish each of you could have heard his words.

He spoke of 7 important steps to healing. One was to refuse to speak evil of them. To find a way to see beyond your pain and their meanness, to the human frailties that lie beneath it all. As I listened to him speak, I could see that the 7 important steps could indeed bring about healing. And isn't that the goal? You are in pain, and I would imagine that his words might help you find the peace you seek.

I think of our own humanness that wants to "be right" and hold them accountable for their wrongs, and dismiss our own wrongs, or at least justify ours. We all wish to defend ourselves, or at least excuse ourselves, but we want them punished. Or at least to pay somehow. We must find a way to forgive them. Right now, you have no way to even communicate with them, which is probably a good thing, because it appears from what you have written that you need some time to do your own soul searching. I think you need to get past the rage, and need to justify yourself, and blame her, and get beyond all of that to a place of forgiveness and peace before any real healing can take place between you. And this will take time, work, and the willingness to be open to even considering whether you actually have some part in the pain.

I think it is through that process that you will find the healing you seek. Don't rush it.

And last, if you EVER want healing, you simply must stop bad mouthing her to others, trying to defend yourself by making sure everyone you know is aware of her faults, etc. Including her step mother who has much to win by this estrangement. Refuse to participate. Or there will never be healing. Sometimes, it can be impossible to put Humpty Dumpty back together again. And our words can be just as destructive.

Stop nursing the old wounds and begin tomorrow fresh, and seek a spirit that looks for joy and peace. I wish you well. I also want to mention that on the hard days, remember, that if you can get your self on a much more positive place, I imagine that you will find the healing you seek.

I also want to mention that with your son's illness, it is critical that he is very careful what he eats. Regardless of what the doctor says, food can be an enormous trigger for crohn's. There are books and information available regarding how foods can wreck havoc and trigger a very bad episode on someone with this disorder. Perhaps you can get the books and have someone get them to him as soon as possible.

To all..

I need to express my frustration at so many posts saying the DR Phil .. right or happy... to me.. this is the crux of the situation.. basically the statement implies that you must give up your values and morals even if you think they are right in order to be happy.
Even according to Dr Coleman.. often with these estrangements there is another person. In my case, I can assure you that this would NEVER have happened if it weren't for the FDIL and frankly her family. My son would never have had a reason to do what he did, he wouldn't have had anywhere to go, and it wouldn't have been an issue at all without the help and advantages offered by the FDIL AND her family.
I have not posted my entire story, but my son will be married next month and we were not invited, nor was my mother. My mother has done nothing.. but she did try to write a letter to the FDIL's mother and plead for her daughter. The letter was returned to her in an envelope addressed to "Resident" like they don't know her name.. these are not nice people and they have taken advantage of a situation and I am not sure why...My son however, invited all of our guest list.. including my husband (His stepfather) family.. brothers, aunts, uncles, etc.. scuse me? We have been very fortunate for our family and friends have recognized the total travesty of this situation and I would say that 75% sent a note back with their NO.. they said things like.. this was a wedding we couldn't wait to attend, but due to the treatment of your parents and the situation, there is no way we can attend.. many added that if they made the situation right, they would love to attend.. so the door was open. We heard from someone who ran into my son.. he encouraged my son to fix the problem and said this was something he would always regret, but my son's response was that his family was trying to "take him down?" As my friend said. who the hell does he think he is? So should I not be "right" should I apologize for my role in his "miserable" life... the one where is mother did everything in her power for him, the one where his mother and step father attended all of his games, the one where his mother and step father helped him get to the college of his choice and pay for it? oh.. maybe it was because I divorced his father? even though his father and I were friends and his father was always welcome in our home even though he never supported his children?
or should i just be happy to get a crumb of attention from him basically when he wanted or needed something..
I am sorry, yes, I forgive him.. I am very understanding of the weakness he has and the situation he has allowed to take control of his life. If it weren't for his Fiance .. he wouldn't have a house, a car or a job.. he works for her father.. but it doesn't excuse the way he has treated his family.. so again.. do I want to be right or happy? tough call.. I am not sure that selling out my values and honor will make me happy so I might have to just make peace with that thought.
I have moved on in my life.. if they walked in the door tomorrow.. I don't know what I would feel.. so many things have happened in the time they have been gone.. my cousin in dying and my mother is sick.. honestly, life is way too short to deal with people that want to treat us the way they do. THis is the reason I want to do this documentary.. it's almost as though our children act like we are a society of animals.. you know.. have the puppies.. they love their mother till they go, then they don't even know their mother anymore...I don't know about you, but that was not the idea I had when i had children and tried to do everything for them!

I am torn. Part of me understands the rage and devastation for parents who have given so much of themselves for their children, only to have them marry the wrong person, and have them turn their back on their family, to please this person who will never be satisfied.

And a part of me knows people who never take responsibility for their behavior, and everything is always someone else's fault. They refuse to even consider that their actions created the situation they find themselves, and are accountable for nothing. They are able to tell about problems and twist the details in such a way that it always makes the other person look bad, and themselves come off looking completely innocent.

So as I have read what each of you have written, at first I take it as it was written, and cannot believe these DIL's. But then I step back, and I think of these people I know who never take responsibilty for their own stuff, and I wonder if we heard the DIL's side, what would she say?

And so I will apologize in advance to those of you who truly are suffering, not due to your own behavior, but because of the DIL's that have destroyed your family. But for those of you who have some part in the problems, I do not imagine you will ever find the healing you seek until you take responsibility for the pain you have created.

Only you know the truth. Only you know whether you are innocent, or whether you have said things, or behaved in a way that has contributed to the pain and heartache that have ended in an estrangement.

Regardless of how it seems, I do not imagine they will ever find joy or peace in their lives, with the estrangement in the shadows. I imagine it is the first thing they think of when they wake up, and what they think of late at night when they cannot sleep. I do not believe there can be real joy or peace with something like this in the shadows. This is your family. All of your history, and memories are intertwined with your family. You may be able to go on for while, keeping busy, and pushing the thoughts back, but they are never gone. And then there is the conscience to deal with. And the guilt that can be haunting.

bnicetobekind, first off, you came down on Garden60 for her post regarding women, or daughter in laws and that was NOT her views! She found that posted on a web site, and just copied it here for others to read. She was probably amazed at the truths that woman spoke, but the woman also generalized greatly.

I don't believe for one minute that all dil's are awful people. I also know that some mil's are difficult, controlling, overbearing women that can't be dealt with. There is always bad fruit, on any tree.

However, it may be a stretch for you to believe, but I do think the women seeking help at this site are telling the entire story. No one I've read yet, has declared they have done no wrong. The question is, did they do wrong that could possibly justify our children's actions, and my answer for my own situation is hands down...NO.

I was/am a loving, easy going person who has never had a jealous bone in my body. My son was very inexperienced, naive and nice when he met this woman. My dil on the other hand was quite obvious from the start regarding her attitude. She was not raised to be respectful, and had a very hard time addressing us as Mr. & Mrs. (from the start!) My dil said very rude things to my husband about him 'watching soccer, again,' right to his face! My husband never said a word to her, but did talk to my son about her remarks and how inappropirate they were in our home (and anywhere for that matter.) My dil would come in the back door and not even come say hello (when they were dating and engaged.) It wasn't until my husband again mentioned this to my son that she started yelling hello from the back door, so that she wouldn't have to come in the house and say it to our faces! She called all the shots with the wedding, even sending the invitations to the rehearsal dinner (which was really my only role as the mother of a son,) and she did so on the sly and then lied about it. Of course my son either doesn't know she is lying, is making excuses for her behavior, or agrees with her simply because it's easier to get along that way.

I know a few bad mother in laws, as well as bad dil and sil's. As exasperated as Sarah's mom is, I feel the same way.

The only excuse I can give the woman who wrote the nasty things about today's daughter in laws or girls in general, is that she is very angry over having been mistreated. Perhaps she is exagerating the situation, and believes she is right when she has much blame to be shared. It is certainly hard to come to a conclusion about someone writing their story on this board since we can only take them at their word.

That being said however, I have noticed that the people who post and mention things that happened again and again (on this forum,) always say the same story, without variation. This speaks volumes, since someone who is lying doesn't remember their story. I heard so many different things from my dil regarding the invitations to the rehearsal dinner, this is how I knew she was lying. I've always told my sons that when you tell the truth, you don't have to remember what your said.

I have a good feel for when people are being honest, or twisting things in their favor. I have yet to notice anything like that from the women who come here to seek help and support.

REMEMBER, rarely do people seek outside advice who are nasty, since they don't want to be told the truth, or advice! Nasty people always believe that what they do, and how they act is right, therefore it wouldn't even occur to them to get another persons opinion....they simply don't care what anyone else things, period.

anniebal

I totally agree with Sarahsmom - what kind of a relationship can there be if one side needs to grovel? I can tell you that I'd much rather NOT have a relationship than have to be walking on eggshells around my daughter and SIL for the rest of my life, just so that I don't offend him anymore.

This has been posted before, but I'll post it again regarding "Injustice Collectors":

Characteristics of Injustice Collectors:

1. Injustice Collectors are convinced that they are never wrong. How is it possible that they are never wrong? It is simple: They are always right.

2. Injustice Collectors never apologize. Ever. For anything.

3. Injustice Collectors truly believe that they are morally and ethically superior to others and that others chronically do not hold themselves to the same high standards as the injustice collector does.

4. Injustice Collectors make the rules, break the rules and enforce the rules of the family. They are a combined legislator, police, and judge and jury of others.

5. Injustice Collectors never worry about what is wrong with themselves as their "bad list" grows. Their focus is always on the failings of others.

6. Injustice Collectors are never upset by the disparity of their rules for others with their own expectations of themselves.

7. Injustice Collectors rationalize their own behavior with great ease and comfort.

Courtesy of Mark Sichel, LCSW.

I know for that my relationship with my daughter will not mend unless and until she develops the self-esteem to leave the injustice collector to whom she is married. And sadly, whether or not she develops that self-esteem, she is blazing a path that her children will follow in the future.

Estrangement is not just a one off thing. There are generations of family history behind each. I certainly can see how our family history played a part in the current estrangement - both sides of the family - and I can go back as far as I can remember and see patterns in my family.

What I see as the biggest difference today is that there is no social pressure to retain even the semblance of a connection and the ease, via the internet, of getting support for one's position of cutting off their family. You don't like the way someone treats you, you dispose of them.

Most unfortunately, those who do that are teaching their children the same thing and eventually the chances are excellent that their children will dispose of them.

Nobody "wins."

I also feel that if I have to grovel and beg for a relationship that it is not worth having.

My husband and I also did everything for our son. My mother footed his entire education, bought him a car so that he graduated debt free with a 6 figure stock portfolio. Hate to sound like I am always talking about money but these are the realities of the situation. Many kids come out of grad school with hundreds of thousands in debt. My son graduated with no debt, hundreds of thousands in stocks and the education needed to get a great job. He was able to buy a house, a BMW and do so without any financial worries. Most of my friend's kids have thousands in student loans and are struggling. Our son never had to experience that pain. Yes, parents and grandparents are supposed to pay for things for their kids- but kids are also suppposed to show some gratitude and respect. My husband and I devoted our lives to our son- which is why there is such a big void. We were hands on parents who despite being hands on also gave him freedom and were not over controlling. I made it a point to give him freedoms that many of my friends did not afford their kids. And yet, my friend's kids speak to them and mine does not. A strange fact is that all of my friend's kids are floundering in terms of career and education- some are having to go back to grad school due to bad major choices- others are not sure what they want to do, some are unemployed. Our son has a great job with a great future- and the only education he may need in the future is the PhD he always talked about getting to become a college professor.

I will not apologize or beg for forgiveness for being ignored, cast aside, for being yelled at, for having him threaten to throw me down the stairs for saying things I never said and doing things I never did, for having the hard work I do for our famly business being mocked to impress the fiance, for being told, "What makes you think we would want to go anywhere with YOU??? We have our OWN plans!" Yes, those plans included making fun of me on the way home from the airport, using our home as a hotel, his father as a taxi service and not even taking a minute to volunatrily go over to see his 82 year old grandmother who he had no seen or contacted for over 2 year. His fiance let a lasting mark by painting my bathroom wall with nail polish and throwing tampons in the toilet that I had to bail out- I put a trash can next to the toilet to put tampons and such in them- she apparently cose to throw them in the toilet. Having spent hundreds of dollarts in the family business on blocked toilets created by tampons, I am very aware of the need to proerly dispose of sanitary products. I do so even in hotels and restaurants because I have respect for property owners- something she apparently lacks.

I do not apologize to people who have disrespected me and my family. I feel that I am owed an apology. If he feels that we are so disgusting and loathsome, then he can stay away. I will not lower myself to beg someone for forgiveness for being a great mother who did a great job. He would not be where he is today if if it were not for us- long and short. We dragged him on vacations all over the world every year to broaden his horizons- made sure he had everything he needed- and now he cannot have the respect to contact us and we are to apologize???? I think not.

If that is the way he is going to be- I will have to listen to my wise old mother who says "to heck with him- let him live and learn- and when he does- let him come back crawling- and apologize for the hurt and disrespect he has dished out."

Njtea, I don't know your story, but why can you not have a relationship with your daughter, without the SIL?

If he finds you offensive, then why doesn't he just stay home? She could visit you alone.

annibal (and Garden) You are right. If I could, I would re-write that first paragraph to Garden60, over the MIL vs DIL post. I apologize Garden as I wanted to make the point that there are many MIL's whose behavior has been very painful to their DIL's, and I was too strong in my approach. I am sorry.

I am hoping that you were able to get past that, and perhaps something is the rest of the post was helpful in some way.

I am sorry for the pain that so many of you are experiencing through the estrangements with your adult children. For many of you, it seems so unjust and beyond comprehension.

When I wrote that each of you needs to examine whether you may have some part in the estrangement, it is not to create more pain than so many of you are feeling (I have no intention to add to your pain) but to help you find healing in the relationship, and end the pain of the estrangement.

*** I believe that those who have a part in the estrangement, have the "best chance of ending the estrangement", and finding healing, and putting your families back together. I believe this, because although you may have hurt through your words or actions, you have the ability to change, and repair the damage your behavior may have caused.

Examine your words, heart and behavior. If you have any part in the estrangement, it is in facing that, and not hiding from it. Perhaps some of you can find your way to healing the relationships and ending the pain you are experiencing.

It is those of you who were completely innocent, who are in the hardest spot, and where healing may not come, because you are dealing with a very troubled and destructive human being. And I have no idea how something good can ever come from something like this. I imagine the restoration of a relationship with your adult children will come only when your adult child begins to see the other person for who they really are, and not who they wish them to be. It will take time for this to happen, I imagine. When the rose colored glasses come off and they are facing the truth head on, of who their spouse really is. Unfortunately, it is usually learned through bits and pieces, or glimpses here and there.
And then they must look at their life, (and if there are children involved) and somehow decide where they go from here.

Lostmama, I imagine that your mother is right, and that your son is going to learn some hard lessons at some point. I imagine that he will plunge ahead with the marriage, ignoring all of the red flags (such as his fiance' still looking for other men while engaged to him) and will discover the heartbreak of choosing such a woman for a wife. Hopefully he does not bring children into the middle of such an unstable relationship, with a woman who does not seem to have the ability to be faithful, even during the early days of love. Imagine how she will fare during real life, when life is filled with crying kids, homework, dirty dishes, laundry to her knees, etc. If she cannot be faithful during the good times, the future does not look rosy for your son.

But it sounds as though life has been easy for him. I imagine he will now learn the lessons that come from the choices he is about to make.

Sirens, I can't answer for Njtea, but for 3 years we didn't have a relationship with our daughter because of sil. We feel that sil made daughter feel guilty if she had a relationship with us. It was almost like she was brainwashed. I think sil was that insecure. He felt if she still talked to us, it cast doubt about his anger to other people, and he has to be right. He has actually told his kids that no one is perfect but him! He was that immature, insecure, and selfish. He didn't allow us to see our grandchildren either. He is older than our daughter, and very manipulative. He tried to pull the same stuff last fall. It only lasted 4 months. Daughter does have a relationship with us now, but he doesn't..and he can't stand it! He tries to talk the grandkids out of coming to our house..grandkids have told us. Isn't that pathetic that he'd use his own kids because he's mad and wants to be right. I feel the difference between this last time and the time before is our daughter is older now. She knew before it was not right, but was helpless. She has more of a backbone now.

Sirens, it's a really long story, too long to go into here. Let's just say that my daughter, unlike Sniffles' daughter, has not yet developed the self-assurance to stand up to her husband, who is nothing but a bully.

He, like Sniffles' SIL, is considerably older than my daughter and is an Injustice Collector personified - together with other issues that he has that I won't detail here.

With him, it's "if you don't do what I tell you to do you will never see your grandchildren again." I won't give in to that type of blackmail - which he has also tried on my son and DIL - they also refuse to give in to him. So, the small, petty person that he is uses his children as weapons against us and his wife.

Njtea, I can relate completely, only it is my son married to the injustice collector. I know it is her, and I have always known where my sons complaints were coming from. He doesn't have the back bone to see us, and stand up to her. Perhaps in time he will, I don't know.

I also feel that should be reconcile with our son, that my dil will hold the grandchildren hostage from us. If we don't do everything she says about how to behave, measure up, etc. we will be eliminated from their family.

I will not grovel or try to live up to her standards any longer. I tried that, simply to please my son, but it didn't work. I've never tried so hard at keeping someone happy as I did my dil. I just wanted her to like me, and know that I wasn't a threat. I was looking forward to my son someday getting married, and finally having another female in my family. However, she has a different mindset, and doesn't intend on sharing my son.

I'm done groveling, apologizing, and going out of my way for that girl. I am hurt beyond belief that my son never saw what she did to us (making us jump through hoops, being rude, sarcastic,selfish and moody.)

It's in his court now. My son can either grow up and realize that he is being controlled and lead around by his nose, or I feel he will be a very unhappy person in life. It is very sad for me to think of him becoming diminished by her, but there is nothing I can do to convince him he has the power to change things. He just doesn't see it.

anniebal

anniebal..

Boy do i feel the same way.. at one point my son knew that he was going to ask this person to marry him, so he came to "apologize".. he didn't really apologize he just said that he never wanted to discuss anything about the incident again and only wanted to move forward.. in hindsight.. big mistake as whatever the problem was .. came back...
I am digressing... anyway.. I said that I wanted to straighten things out with his gf.. he said .. and I quote.. that I could say whatever I wanted to say to her, but that would I please do him a huge favor and be the one to make the call... I said, no problem and I called immediately and said we should talk. We agreed to meet at a coffee shop and we had this hour long chat.. when I think back about the conversation.. I just cringe. She sat there as Miss High and Mighty while I am trying to make things right. She asked me during the conversation if she would be able to take my daughter places again... I told her that she could if they (meaning my son and her) wanted to be part of the family again.. but they could not just come pick her up like she was a pawn in a divorce case... so this girl turns to me and says... SO.. YOU ARE SAYING THAT WE HAVE TO PAY HOMAGE TO YOU FIRST ..THEN WE CAN TAKE HER?
I just about flipped out.. who talks to people that way?
Especially your bf's mother?
I have known her for 9 years.. she was the nicest girl.. she used to send me flowers when the boys upset me.. but I now realize I let her use me and I let myself get into this situation with her. She hated my younger son's gf .. as did I... so she would ask my son questions on IM and then she would cut and paste and send to me. Then when she graduated, and started working for her Dad.. she changed...
She is someone I don't know.. and she has taken my sons right along with her...I feel so sad for my daughter.. she loves her brothers and really doesn't understand.
I too know that this situation will never be fixed... I know that the only time we will ever have a relationship again is when she is out of the picture.. and she may never be... my son has gotten himself in so deep between working for her father and father buying their home.. etc.. that he might just put his feelings in a box.... suck it up just to keep the level of living that he has become accustomed to.
At 26 .. he hasn't ever had to look for a job.. he has a lovely home.. nicer than any starter home I know of...
he has been on amazing vacations, he has a motorcycle to ride and a boat to drive.. I don't hold out a lot of hope for me!

I also tried to be nice to my son's fiance/wife whatever. We used to i'm frequently. I made small talk, asked how her school work was going and even offered to help her with papers in terms of editing, and doing research if she needed help. She never took me up on that. I was serious. I was willing to help her if I could.

For Christmas '06 even though I was hurt that my son never came to see his father when he was in the hopsital 2 weeks, I bought her 2 nice Christmas sweat shirts and some jewelry. I sent it to her. Never so much as a thank you or even acknowledgement that she received it. I asked my son and was told that she was wearing the sweat shirts as her grandma's trailer was cold as they could not afford to blast the heat.

Prior to visiting in August of 2006, I told her about the great Walgreens rebate club. I mentioned some of the wonderful cosmetics I had gotten for free. She expressed an interest in hair coloring products and lipstick. I got her both of these items as well as other toiletry items, such as deodorant, shampoo, toothbrushes and her favorite toothpaste. I was not implying she was poor or could not afford these things- I presented it as a great way of trying things for free. She seemed excited and even asked me for speicific products that I gave her.
When we visited and she made up stories about me that created a rift with my son, I brought her cosmetics, a Walgreen's gift card so that she could buy what she needed and a sewing kit as she expressed an interest in learning to sew buttons. I taught her to sew on buttons. After that, she made up the stories to my son- so what is the use!

I then sent her a birthday card and even bouight her a birthday gift to take out when we went for the engagement party. I had the gift all wrapped and was going to give it tpo her after the party. She was so rude and aloof and seemed not to give a damn that I never gave it to her. I thought about it- why try to kiss up to someone who obviously was not interested in having a relationship? Even if I receive something I do not like or want, I show appreciation for the thought. She never did that!

Our $500 engagement gift never was acknowledged- although she spent a fortuneon invitations and the party. We assume they were not grateful?

Since then I have tried nothing at all.

I really did try and I have no guilty feelings as I did try to be nice. I was open with her- never said anything rude or nasty. For some reason she does not like us and has taken our son away.

Sarahsmom...I can't get over the similarities between our dil's, just as lostmama too. They all have so much in common with how they conduct themselves with people they should be showing respect for.

It seems that these girls are not able to express love in any real meaning of the word. IF they loved their bf's, or husbands then they wouldn't be trying to alienate them from their birth parents. I can't even imagine the thought ever even popping into my head with such a notion.

Sarahsmom, why did she start making stories up? It is so strange that you guys got along for so long, and then she just wanted you out of her life. Perhaps it was the marriage that changed things? Were you and your son real close? I often feel that that is what made my dil alienate me from our son, I don't think she could handle what close family ties we had always had.

When you state she was being 'miss high and mighty', you have know idea how much I can relate to that! My dil was a pill from the getgo, always acting superior, lacking respect, needing to be told how wonderful she was, and needing lots of attention. My dil thought she was our peer, and that is no lie.

It's interesting that you state your dil didn't like the girl your younger son was dating. Was that a valid dislike? My dil didn't like the girl my younger son was dating either but I feel it was completely unvalidated.I think the girl stole the limelight from my prospective dil (at the time,) and she couldn't handle it. The younger bro just started dating her after his big bro got engaged. My younger sons gf was SOooo cute, polite, respectful...it was like night and day. My dil is a cute girl, but she isn't a knock out like this girl was.

For a year, my dil was very cool to my son when she came over or was with us. She wouldn't greet him, and rarely if ever talked to him unless forced to. When we had a heart to heart talk before the wedding (which was brought on by my dil sending the rehearsal dinner invites out w/o consulting me, when she knew I wanted to send them.) I think my son told her she had to come over and discuss our differences so we could get along.

While talking (which was mostly me,) I asked her why she'd been giving my youngest son the cold shoulder. What she told me, I will never forget! My dil stated that she was 'teaching him a lesson!' I was astounded, and followed up with 'teaching him a lesson for what?' She told me she was teaching him a lesson that his girlfriend was wrong for him!!!! I asked her if she thought my son understood what she was doing, if he got the message? My dil replied that "yes he got the message, afterall, he isn't dating her anymore, is he?" Now that really takes the cake, doesn't it?
I didn't know what to say, but with how things were going between us I certainly didn't say she was wrong, I just kept my mouth shut.

You can see how this girl thinks just from that small example.

lostmama, you and I were very alike in how hard we tried to get our dil's to like us. I bent over backwards trying to get her things I thought she would like, taking her out for her birthday, inquiring about her wedding plans, etc. yet nothing worked. She just couldn't stand us, period.

anniebal

Oh Boy anniebal...

You are right.. very much the same..I am sure I have heard the "teach him a lesson as well"..
She didn't make stories up.. I apologize if that was confusing, but I think I know where the rift started.. about 4 years ago, normally her family goes somewhere exotic between Christmas and New Years.. and they take my son. In 2004 they didn't go anywhere, so she decided that the 2 of them would go to Montreal for New Years. I don't know why but she begged us to go with them.. she made a room reservation for us, etc. We rented a Suburban so we could all fit.. we went to Montreal. It was last minute and I did what I always do.. made some dinner plans, etc.. they had their own room, but would come for dinner of course. I made a reservation for New Year's eve at a restaurant that sounded neat. Of course there wasn't alot of choice that late.. anyway.. it was a prix fixe menu and she hated everything on it. We all kept trying to say.. well maybe you could order the chicken, but leave off the sauce or whatever.. well you could see she was getting annoyed.. and the more we tried, she kept saying I will be fine, and looked like she swallowed 10 lemons.. then my son became very uncomfortable.. basically ruined the dinner, the trip and I believe that was the beginning of the end. Obviously, my husband and I were perplexed.. I thought it was rude.. we were paying for dinner, and I didn't know she wouldn't eat any of it, I just couldn't imagine behaving that way. I think she knew it was bad behavior, but instead of apologizing or something.. she quizzed my then 6 year old daughter about what we said about her and that started the end. She was very cool for a long long time. Things never felt the same after that.
I haven't written here about what actually happened.. so I will.. basically, my son and his gf were living together in an apt right out of college. They decided to buy a house.. (ps.. I am a real estate agent and I helped them and sold them the house.. my husband was so upset by their behavior at that time.. he made me give them my commission.. $6K .. so that they would never say that I profited in any way from them)Their lease was up before the house closed.. they could have stayed here or at her parents house (same town) but they chose to stay here. I mistakenly thought it might be fun as my younger son was home and i knew it would be the last time we would all be together.. it was only for about 6 weeks... HUGE mistake.. it just went downhill.. nothing big, just tension.. my son kept turning the air condition down to 65, my husband kept asking him not to.. stuff like that.. at one point we almost asked them to go, but decided just to hold our tongues as there were only a few more weeks.. At one point the FDIL called me into the kitchen and shut the door she was furious because again.. she asked my daughter .. then 8 to go to the movies with them. My daughter knew the tension so she said she didn't want to go.. again the FDIL quizzed my daugher who told her under pressure that mommy and daddy had just said to let them be their own people and give them space.. is that bad? I don't know but she ripped my head off and said she was moving.. somehow my son calmed her down and they stayed. After all this.. I had a friend that was very depressed.. I kept calling him and emailing and he wouldn't respond. I knew that if i had problems he would respond immediately.. I hope that makes sense to you.. anyway.. I sent him an email and said.."I hate my children, I am not proud to say they have hurt my feelings so much" and of course he called.
About 5 days later.. I was in the back with my daughter and friends in the pool.. I walked around the front to find my son and FDIL with her families pick up and they were filling it up. I said.. what are you doing? he said.. Moving.. I thought they were moving stuff out of the garage because the next day they we were having the driveway redone. I had NO IDEA.. i went back to the back and later when I came in .. everything they had here was gone. I didn't have a clue.. I came upstairs, found an envelope on my computer and in it was a copy of that email that I sent to a friend days before with a highlighter thru that sentence. This means that they went into my computer.. into my email and they had to search thru my sent mail to find that.. I tried to call back.. of course he wouldn't answer. I sent him an email explaining that that was totally a figure of speech.. I had discussed this with him before and of course I don't hate my children. He wrote me back the nastiest email.. and of course, what kind of parent would say that about their kids, etc. The way I was raised, I would have said.. oh my gosh, why would you say that about me? what did i do? I would be horrified.
We had to go to a party across the street that afternoon and they came back and cleaned out my younger son and took him with them.
Thats how it all started and just gets worse and worse after that.. as I am sure we all know.. everything gets completely misconstrued and you can't ever put it back.
We tried the walking on eggshells but without knowing what they really wanted.. we just keep making the same mistakes and when I think back over the things they have said and done.. it is sickening considering how close we were.
Yes.. FDIL.. her parents were going thru a rough patch at one point, and she basically lived with us. She became totally part of my husbands family (my boys step father) .. she adored his mother and father.. she said she never knew hers well..interesting.. her father was estranged from his until a day or so before he died.
If I had to analyze .. I would say that FDIL can't handle anyone talking about her and when she finds out you have .. you are cut off. Interesting because my boys were like that too.. they hated when mothers would talk.. I would just say that mothers always talk about good and bad... don't give me anything bad to talk about...
As for the other son's GF.. she was legimately not the right person for him.. however in hindsight.. maybe not so bad!!! but he has a great GF now and seems that the FDIL totally approves of her.. so she is happy.. isn't that nice, I guess the lesson was taught there as well.
Their wedding is in 2 weeks.. it will be a tough one for me.. we are going to visit a dear college friend of mine in NC who has planned a wonderful weekend for my husband, myself and my daughter... thank goodness for friends...:-)

bnicebkind - you are so wrong in your judgments of me as a MIL. When my husband and I were first married, my MIL was always calling and wanting to spend time with us. She was a widow and my husband an only child. I asked my husband to talk to his mother about not calling us every night at supper to see what I was fixing. As time went on, it was obvious she wasn't concerned that her son was eating well, but rather that was the time she knew we were home and she was lonely.

I have to run to a meeting. I can continue later. I saved all the emails my son sent me regarding asking me for advice and I responded basically that the best advice I could give him was to jsut go slow and get to know each other.

I don't have that problem as my husband is still alive and I have another son - BUT I would NEVER have treated her the way my DIL is treating me. Never! I was raised in a generation where you had respect for your elders.

My DIL told me she would not invite her bio mother to the wedding that she wouldn't see her until she was "in her grave". What could a mother do to a child to have her say that?

The minister who married them said they were so immature and he had 2 choices - let them go and they would find someone else to marry them as they were hell-bent on getting married, even though they were already living together, or he could marry them and hopefully be able to do a little counselling along the way. During the ceremony whenever the minister read scripture, my DIL laughed. Do you think that was appropriate?

I sort of fell into a depression yesterday as it was one year since my son stormed out of the house here. I sat and thought about how he looked, how much I wished they would have wanted to go somewhere with us- all to no avail.

I was cleaning and came across an e mail my husband sent him back in the fall of 2007 virtually begging him to be in touch and keep us in his life. My husband also told him how distraught I was and how he should try and get in contact with me. The funny thing is that at the time of this e mail, our son was living alone with the gf. back at her grandparents house with the marriage plans being off. So, my husband was hoping that perhaps some communication could open if she was the problem. As my husband lost his mom when he was 23, he wrote that once your mom is gone she is gone. He eneded the e mail with a sincere invitiation for him to visit us for the holidays. As

No reply at all.

I sat and cried when I read what my husband wrote. He listed some of the hurtful things that has us wondering what we did wrong. I realized that my husband is just as deeply affected as I am only thing is that he never talks about it.

I sat and cried and thought of all the things I could have said or should have said but then again even when I was being very nice nothing was appreciated.

I was thinking of writing a letter to my son and simply asking WHY??? Why is his treating us like this?? WHAT did we do to offend him??? HOW can this situation be mended???

I mentioned it to my mother who also is being ignored and she told me he would laugh at the letter and never reply.

I need to know for my own peace of mind and to move on exactly what my husband and I did to deserve this.

I might add that I sent an e mail thank you for the Mothers Day flowers and never got a reply, so I sent a greeting with a thank you that tells you when the recipient picked up the message. He has never picked up my message sent over a week ago.

What are your thoughts about writing to him? Am I wasting my time as my husband was? Do you see any benefits?

I would basically just pose the Why, What and How questions.
without anything else.

Thanks!

lostmama - DO NOT WRITE OR CALL him. I cannot tell you how many times I started letters, started emails (I had to leave the addressee part off the email because I might accidently hit send) - anyway, start a journal, write down what you would like to say to him, but don't send it. If he didn't open your last email, he probably won't open this one either.

This weekend a friend said it will probably be 2 years before I hear from my son. He is the one missing out on family and friends; not me. We mothers have to come to grips with the fact that we are dealing with manipulative DILs who know which buttons to push. Patience - I am hoping when he grows up, he will come to his senses.

Sarahsmom, I can't believe all you have been through, yet I can believe everything you have through! Your dil sounds so much like mind, that I can't stand it. The whole thing about her not liking her meal, and not even bothering to pretend that she liked, since afterall you guys were treating?!!! Where is the respect, appreciation, and just being nice? How could you have taken them all the way to Montreal, paid for everything, and then had them (her) behave that way?!!

It's like us taking son & dil with us to Hawaii last summer! The similarities are overwhelming. My dil was miserable from the morning we left to the airport. How can one be miserable going to Hawaii, all expenses paid for 10 days! She did everything possible to be miserable around us, yet when we went out of our way to meet up with good friends of theirs that just happened to be on Maui at the same time as us, my dil lit up like a Christmas Tree! Everything I had told my son I wanted regarding this trip went out the window, and I didn't ask that much. All I had asked him before he agreed to go, was that this was a family vacation and that I would want to be spending most of the time together. I explained of course they would be alone on their anniversary, and take walks on the beach, or go to the bar later at night with his little brother. This was not too much to ask, and if it was, then he should never have agreed to go. I know other families that take vacations together, and they spend almost the entire time together. My son kept chipping away at my request after he agreed to it. By the time we got to Hawaii, we hardly saw them. Oh, we paid for a nice dinner every night, and did about 2 days of sightseeing, but even then they were off by themselves, not with us. They rented a van so they could drive the island, since afterall, their friends did that abd they had so much fun. My son didn't care what he agreed to, he let his wife manipulate the entire vacation. My son was an accessory to the crime, and that is guilty.

I can't believe your dil convinced your son to go through your email! That is simply outrageous. As you stated to your son, we moms do talk about the good and the bad, it's just part of it. Where else do we go to vent? It certainly means nothing either, in regard to how much we love them, they are gripe sessions. I can imagine myself saying the exact same thing as you did in your email, and I'm being completely honest. My hubby and I often make jokes away from the kids about their neediness, or their overdramatizations. Your son should have been apologizing to you that he went through your email! I'm sure your son or dil has never been away from each other and complained to a friend about how their wife or husband is behaving! We all do this, but your dil sounds as paranoid as mine does, and they just can't handle it. These girls think they are perfect, superior to us in every way, so it must eat at them to think we don't treat them as goddesses. Imagine that we have an opinion?

Your story about your son continuing to adjust the temperature, and how you finally decided to just bare with it, is just like ours. You know overlooking the temperature thing is one thing, but for your dil to confront you in the kitchen about what you said to your youngest daughter is way over the limit. What you said wasn't bad, giving them space?? This was SOooo insulting to her? Where do these kids come off with this attitude? I have never behaved like that in my life to anyone I even semi liked. Even people I don't like I just try to stay away from, and don't usually comment to their tactless remarks or rude behavior. What is it with this 'generation' (sorry, another generalization,) that they have this huge sense of entitlement to tell us everything we do wrong. They make US live up to THEM!

To think your son & dil then turned your other son against you is just too hurtful. I can just imagine the little B telling your younger son what you had written in your email, and somehow convincing him that you actually meant it literally! I mean, c'mon!

So now your younger son is getting married and your not going to his wedding? OMG, I feel so bad for you, it makes me want to cry. Where do these awful, awful people come from? How are they able to brainwash our children against us, when our kids knew us? I can only hope and pray that what goes around comes around, because our dil's so have everything bad coming to them.

I hope your able to get through the wedding period without too much pain, it is good you have plans. My god, it just makes me so sick.

anniebal

Lostmama, I completely agree with garden60! Don't call, write, etc. since he won't reply and it will jab that knife down even deeper into the wound.

I reached out 3-4 times to my son, and yet he told me he wanted no contact, nothing. Finally in February I quit trying. I'm still pretty miserable, but I am getting better. I'm very involved in my younger sons life right now, which helps a great deal. I have my garden and pond to attend to regularly, which is a great stress reliever.

I haven't posted on hear yet that I have heard from my son. My son called me yesterday, and left a message. I truly didn't think he would respond to my request for him to call us when he was back in the country (in the birthday card I sent him, which was only sent because he did send me a mother's day card stating 'we could now call him.') I figured that after I put the ball back in his court to call us, that he would make us wait a few weeks to show us who is boss.

Anyway, he called and left a message on our house phone as I was busy in the yard. I called him back and got his v mail (on his cell phone, not home!) My son called relatively soon after my message. We had a cordial, but awkward conversation. My son was pleasant, and asked about his dad's skin cancer. I was very low key, sounding laid back, happy to hear from him, but not bubbling over.

We talked about his upcoming trip to Italy, his trip to Mexico for his job, about a visit to the cardiologist for high blood pressure (gee, I wonder why?)whether he got my card for his b-day, etc. He thanked me for the b-day card. I told him about my garden and pond, suggested he have a home tester for his blood pressure (even though all his tests came out normal, and his blood pressure has gone back down.)

I could hear my dil in the background putting dishes away, or at least I believe it was her since we know men can't multi task :)

My son told me after about 10 minutes that he should get going so he could help his wife with dinner. I said ok, and told him I loved him. This is where it got interesting. There was a distinct hesitation before he responded that he loved me too. At first I thought I was being paranoid thinking that he didn't want to tell me he loved me in front of my dil, but now I know that that is what had to be true. Two people I've told that to (my hubby and a very good friend,) both stated that that is why he hesitated, even before I could tell them what my opinion was.

So what, this girl won't allow him to say he loves me in front of her? Boy if that's the case, I bet he caught all heck once he hung up the phone. I guess i have to be happy that he felt he needed to say it back to me, regardless of whether she was there or not. Maybe that's a positive sign of things to come.....eventually!

I didn't say anything to him regarding calling again, when I'd see him, nothing, zilch, zero!! He didn't say anything to me in that regard either. I also let him wonder whether his dad was home and not talking to him, or that his dad was out of town on business. I felt that if he wanted to know where his dad was, he should ask. Let him think his dad doesn't want to talk to him, afterall, he has it coming. I know that sounds mean, but I've reached a point that he gets what he gives, and he has given so much hurt in the last 4 years that I am amazed I've survived.

I've finally reached a point where I don't expect to see him. It's truly amazing. I go out to do my thing outside, and some days I'm not even thinking of him until later in the day. This is a huge improvement.

I no longer expect him to walk up behind me, put his arm on my shoulder and tell me how much he loves me, and how wrong he has been. I guess I tired of that fantasy...it just hurt too much knowing it would never happen.

Lostmama, Garden60 and sarahsmom, we all have major head cases as dil's that have poisoned our sons minds with lies and emotional abuse. It is so hurtful to think that the boys we loved could reach a point where they could be turned against us, but I guess we can't ever underestimate the power of evil women over nice guys. What's that old saying, 'nice guys finish last.' I really don't believe that, but I do think there is a lot to be said for it's meaning, all the same.

I do think we may have our sons back someday, in a way that is similar to what they once were. It is going to be a long time coming, but something's gotta give at some point. Boys take a long time to really become men, and some much longer then others. Our boys found love, and think that the only way to keep it is by obeying their girls every demand. I think most will reach a point that they tire of having to behave exactly how she tells them to. I only wish that time was sooner, then later.

Still, I do have a smidgen of hope now. However, I have no delusions that my dil will be any different. My husband and I have already made an agreement that we will never be mistreated by her/them again. If they can't love and accept us for who we are, then they can be out of our lives. We are not bad, awful people. We raised our kids with nothing but love, support, kindness and being there. We don't deserve the over dramatization of every single thing we do or say. I will be me, and my husband will be himself, and if we say something that she finds offense with, so be it. I'm done groveling. I swear I will never be taken advantage like that ever again. We've agreed to keep each other in check in case one of us slips up. Afterall, we are nice people, we do not think the way our dil does, so it would be easy to slip up.

I'm so tired of caring right now, I have truly reached a point where I can say good riddens (at least for the most part.)

anniebal

Anniebal - BRAVO!!! I so totally agree with your paragraph about you and your husband being yourselves and not trying to figure out what you are "supposed to be" for them. My husband got to that point a long time ago, but I am slowly following.

I applaud you for the way you handled the conversation with your son. I have rehearsed in my mind if my son ever calls and I think the message I will need to send is that we are doing great, I might even mention about a new cousin in the family, etc. My son is so -- no "was" - so sensitive it will break his heart to have been out of the loop and realize life goes on without him.

Our sons - well my son at least - was smitten by not only the love bug but the sex bug. For some unknown reason he was smitten with her from the beginning and refused to give anyone else a chance. Well, as my dad used to say "make your bed; sleep in it".

Sarasmom and lostmamma - I am so saddened by your experiences and the fact there are more nasty DILs out there. Ouch. What is happening with these young people?

I just have to add I spent 4 days at our lake home with my husband and older son and numerous friends stopping by. In my subconscious, I almost felt my estranged son coming up, but then I really knew it was just a fictitous dream that gave me hope. And, of course, he didn't come.

annibal!

That is great.. what a great response to your son.. at least he called and you could have a conversation..

I think my story has gotten a little confusing since both boys are involved, but my older son is getting married in 2 weeks.. so far the person we have been talking about is his fiance.. but in 2 weeks my DIL.. my younger son has been sucked up by them. The FDIL was so close to me for so many years it makes it all the more mind boggling.. the only other comfort I have is i have been reading that often mental issues surface in young adulthood? I am wondering if she has some issues.. I know she does.. that will become more apparent to all once this "honeymoon" period wears off.
I have no hope of any relationship with my sons until she is effectively out of the picture. That could be never...
but I can't even pretend anymore knowing the amount of manipulation .. especially crossing the line with my daughter. You dont ask a 6, 7, 8 year old to betray her parents. This is child abuse...
Yes, I will be very glad when wedding weekend is passed.. the FDIL took my husband and myself off of the family link on her website. She replaced us with my son's father and his wife and son.. oh well!
I think your "smidgen" of hope is excellent and i think with your tougher position you are on the right track!!!

Thanks Sarahsmom and garden60 for your supportive words, they are ALWAYS appreciated.

Sarahsmom, thanks for explaining which son was getting married, I was definitely confused. You know I went back and read it again too just to be sure I knew which one you were referring to, so much for that :)

Sarahsmom, you state that you were such good friends and then you don't know what happened. I can tell you exactly what happened, you were used. Your dil put on this loving, friendly act with you for as long as it took to snag your son. She knows that once they were living together, she could start filling his head with lies. I know this sounds ridiculous, but it is how these people work. No one can be more important than they are, or even close. These women expect complete compliance by our sons, and if they don't comply, they make their life miserable. Just like you stated your son said, he does what she wants because it's easier to live with her (otherwise she'd nag him forever!)

Garden60, your certainly not alone in your fantasies so don't feel bad. I still have them here and there, but not nearly as often. I know yours will fade also, but they are so painful to let go. It's as if we are giving them away for good when we let those dreams and fantasies go away. In a sense we are doing just that, and it's for our own survival. We deserve better, we were good parents, and our sons were sensitive, loving boys. If they had met a nice girl, I truly believe things would be completely reversed. As it is, I still believe that my son misses the closeness he had with us. He used to call me just to tell me simple little things, yet they were important enough to him that he wanted to share them. It must get tiring to share everything that happens in one's life with only one person. NO ONE loves them like their mom and dad, and they will find this out.

I remember when my son was married about 6 months, and was on a road trip for work. He got a stomach virus overnight and was miserable. He called me at like 4 in the morning to ask what he could do. I truly feel he still needed his mom to tell him everything will be ok, that it'll stop soon, and give him the love and support only a mom can give. Let's face it, when our hubby's are sick we don't dote on them like their moms did, and it's no different for our sons.

I have to believe that they will get fed up being lead around by the nose, and made to respect these girls. Sooner or later the girls are going to need more attention then our sons can or are willing to give. WHen this happens our dils will most likely cheat on them to fill the insatiable appetite they have for attention.

anniebal

Anniebal - you are so right - I know it is terrible to hope these nasty DILs exit soon, but I just reread so many emails shared with my son before and leading up to the nastiness right before the wedding - we had such a good realtionship, in one email he wrote, "...I will always welcome your advice..." and then the closer she became, the nastier the emails got. I read all my apologies for saying something that offended her/him, something like "not that I don't want you to be together but go slow" etc. and he just took that as telling him what to do and he went on and on about he being an "adult" now.

As I reread those emails, it is clear he had no idea of what he was getting into, other than he was infatuated with her thinking it was love and she and her step-mom just lead him around by the nose, picking out the townhouse they should live in, taking his money for the downpayment, putting her name on the deed first, little things - manipulative controlling of him. I wonder if he will ever figure it out.

And every time I pointed something out to him, he got nastier and nastier - this huge wall of defense came up.

Will I ever contact him as Dr. Coleman suggested I do about 6 months after his nasty email - I don't know. Guess I have some time to think about it.

Today I am angry at him; probably tomorrow I will be feeling sad he is no longer in our lives. Wish I had a crystal ball.

If your DIL is a Christian, you have hope. Once they both mature, they will be back in your life. I, on the other hand, am dealing with an athiest and they are hard nosed and mean.

Garden60, if my dil was a Christian I'd be in despair, not hopeful. What Christian could behave in such a manner as to not respect the people who gave birth to the man she supposedly loves?

However, to answer your question, NO, she is the furthest thing from a Christian. Though my son was raised with religion until he left home for college (we then left it up to him about continuing his beliefs), he stated to me during their engagement that the only reason they were getting married in a church was for the tradition. My son told me that he and his girl were both in agreement regarding these feelings.

Last year before the estrangement, he told his brother that he and his wife are aetheists. My son was shocked by his revelation, not understanding how he could have absolutely no belief.

I don't know where all of this came from, but I saw my brother in law give up his religion for my sister and her beliefs so I know it is possible.

I know I mentioned my sister and her husband, and how he changed just to suit her ways. That example is what worries me the most about my son. The only difference is that my son was raised by two loving parents, who weren't alcoholics, or abusive in anyway, shape or form. That is the difference I pray will lead him back one day, but only time will tell if that's true or not.

anniebal

Anniebal - that explains a lot. My son had a very strong faith and in HS he told her he couldn't take their relationship farther if she wouldn't go to church with him and that is when she told him she had no time for "that" and threw him out. After the 6 years when they reunited, he told me first that he would never lose his faith and hoped to bring her to Christ and would give her 10 years of his working on her. Then when they were engaged he told me "I am not going to church anymore; we have our own faith now." Not sure what their "faith" was since she never sought out the bible, church, etc. Oh, well, not my problem anymore is it? But I can continue to pray for them; no one can take that away from me.

Garden60, yes, we can continue to pray, and nobody can take that away from us. I don't mind people questioning their faith, changing from one faith to another, however I find it very strange when someone makes such a dramatic change seemingly overnight? To me it is evident that the person changing was convinced to do so by their significant other. One thing I always admired about my husband was, that despite the fact that I was non-denominational and had really not gone to church since I was 8 years old and my mother got ill, my hubby always remained true to his. Now, I never tried to get him to change or quit, but I'm sure my not belonging to his faith made it harder on him to stay commited.

Since I really didn't have a religion, I agreed to raise our kids Catholic like my husband was/is. If a child doesn't experience religion, then what do they have to base a decision on regarding whether they believe or not? There must be exposure to make a informed choice, otherwise it means nothing.

If my son truly doesn't want a faith right now, I believe it is a phase that will pass. However, my bil never went back to religion or any faith at all so perhaps my son won't either.

I can live without him having faith, although I think he would find peace in life.

anniebal