For mothers who are estranged from their adult child

18 years ago

This is the thread for mothers who are in pain over conflict or estrangement with their adult children. If you are new to Gardenweb, please share your story in this thread. If you have been sharing your story of conflict and estrangement from your child on the threads of Gardenweb, please continue to talk about your experience in this thread so that the discussion can be consolidated in one place. If the discussion can be in one thread, it will make it easier to find everyone's stories on this topic.

When the thread reaches its maximum of 150 posts, a new thread will be started to continue the discussion.

For those who think that it is their place to come here and judge, criticize, and advise the mothers who post on this thread, if you haven't walked in their shoes yourself, do not assume that you know anything about their experience and that you have a clue what it is like to be estranged from your child. If you feel compelled to criticize, offer advise, and disparage the mothers who post in this thread, please begin another thread for you to do that in. You might label it something like, "What is wrong with you and what I think that you should do." Although that is a lengthy label. Perhaps you could call it, "My take on your life." That would cover it.

I am setting up separate threads because of the conflicts that have occurred in recent months in the threads on family estrangements.

A thread is also being set up for daughters, daughter-in-laws, and others who are upset with a mother or mother-in-law. That is certainly a common issue for many women. I have had plenty of experience in being on the daughter side of the situation myself.

As for myself, I don't intend to write about my own experience except where it might help someone else with theirs. I have been estranged for many years from some of my relatives. I have felt the pain. I do know what it is like. Enough time has gone by that I do not feel the pain that I once felt although there is always that sense of loss, the wish that everything could be fixed and that harmony could reign.

In 2001 I set up a website and a blog on the subject of family estrangements that I link to from time to time. There you will find information on the subject, some of which might be helpful in your situation.

Ginny

Featured Answer

shulamitedove

18 years ago

last modified: 11 years ago

Hi all - I'm back from my 2-week vacation. Unfortunately I was sick most of the time - somehow I managed to get pneumonia! I knew my immune system was down before I left - didn't feel too hot - but thought time away would heal it. I never realized how sick I was. However, even with being sick it was good to be away - had access to medical care and someone who was able to help out so it wasn't totally bad. The best part was no one from home knew where I was. I'm still on the mend - but the good news is the worst is over.

Laurene I read your message about what your counselor told you. I disagree - I'm sure he/she hasn't had to go thru what we have. Where's tough love in this? I talked to my counselor about my situation and she was supportive - told me if I allow my daughter (or anyone else for that matter) to 'abuse' me then I'm part of the abuse cycle and I'm enabling her. It never stops then. I'm sure you have let your daughter know in many ways that you do love her - otherwise if you didn't you wouldn't care enough to be talking about it.

We have to break it. There is a good book 'Toxic Parents' that you might want to read. It talks about parents who are abusive and controlling but it can apply the other way around. It helped me tremendously. Just reverse the roles in the book - it also gives you steps to take to break the cycle. We are enablers when we allow our children to abuse or contol us.

Yes, we love them. We gave them life. But we also have a right to a decent life and to not allow someone else, no matter who it is - and that includes family - to hurt us or control us.

Let me ask you this? Is your daughter the one in counselling or are you? There is a reason why we as parents have to go to a counselor - you can remind your counselor of that. Perhaps it's time to look for a new one. I hope I'm not offending you but I feel for you right now - just know that you have someone out here who does understand and is on your side.

Shulamitedove

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Comments (151)

jstgvup
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
midnight crescent....Thanks for sharing your experiences on this forum. I am so sorry that you are having to go through all of that loss and betrayal...it is certainly understandable for you to sound "fragile"! My goodness, how else were you supposed to sound?! I know that it is hard when you feel like everything is against you and when it appears that the very people that are supposed to be there to help you and protect you aren't. Somewhere deep down inside of you is a very strong person to have survived all of this for all these years. Don't give up on yourself! There are people that understand and can help you through this. Keep posting!
midnight_crescent
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
jstgvup...Thank you for your kindness and supportive words. Though I intended to respond sooner, my gratitude to you for making me feel understood with compassion instead of judged and not so alone is felt wholeheartedly nonetheless.

I read your posts and identify with many things you wrote. You, too, are a strong person who has suffered too much. You've been abused enough by your ex-husband. You don't need to be crucified for the rest of your life by your kids for whatever shortcomings they think you had as a mother. Abuse can blind us and be amazingly insiduous. Its effect on us, especially when it's done by someone we love who we vowed to share our life with, is extremely complex. And like you said, you went into that marriage with high hopes and dreams. You didn't say to yourself..."Oh, I think I'll marry this one so he can make my life, and that of our children, hell."

I say these words to you, while at the same time saying them to myself, as I've struggled with the same feelings of guilt. I've said to myself..."If I hadn't married an abusive man who deserted us, leaving my daughter, at 11 months old, fatherless and siblingless, if I only could have afforded a big house and had lots of money like her friends parents, if I only had realized that the older, handsome federal agent that pursued, romanced me and proposed to me at Andrews Airforce Base(btw, broke off the engagement after he broke my ribs) was a sick, manipulative, sociopathic abuser, if I had only been strong and smart enough, after repeated abuse throughout my life from my parents not to mention their attempted kidnapping scheme done with the help of my sister in the wake of my broken engagement, then maybe I wouldn't have fell for the guy who ended up being crazy and stalking me/us, etc. etc."

Believe me, my daughter played the guilt card well mind you. She knew how to wrap me around her finger. Though I couldn't afford it, I got her a cat and dog because she whined how I didn't give her a sibling. I dressed in practically rags so that she would have nice clothes, I danced for a living so we could get off welfare and so I could go back to school while spending every spare minute when I wasn't working, studying or in school with her, I risked my life many times in those clubs and faced condemnation for what I had to do to give my daughter a better life (fyi, I strictly danced, never prostituted, though I don't condemn anyone who has), I became a Licensed Practical Nurse and Stockbroker with Series 7, 63 and 65 licenses and NYS Life and Health Insurance and Annuities Licences by the time my daughter reached the age of 11 years old, in the midst of all the abuse and craziness I was being put through. A schluff or lazy I wasn't. I never did drugs in my life, I didn't drink and, believe it or not, didn't really begin smoking cigarettes till I was stalked (which I quit 3 and a half years ago and since became a certified personal trainer and triathlete, a volunteer firefighter and EMT as well as part-time, professional singer and musician, which I did before I got married for fun). The decision to have to dance and the price I paid, in so many ways, was the ultimate sacrifice of love. I was the most conservative and unlikeliest candidate you ever met to strip for a living! My experiences for that alone, I should write a book!

I am most tortured wondering if the ex-fiancee and/or ex-boyfriend/stalker did anything to my daughter that may explain some of her behavior and hatred toward me. I've danced with many girls who had been molested by their mothers husbands or boyfriends. They did, often demonstrate very low-self esteem and exagerated promoscuity perhaps, but I never knew one of them to estrange themselves from their mother's or express such hatred.

I wish I had the answers or understood. If something happened to my daughter, I was unaware. Was she subjected to seeing her mother abused and miserable, yes, and guess what, she even got to see me feeling pretty suicidal too. Well, who wouldn't be! And, I will now add, that I've also worked with many dancers, and for that matter non-dancers, who's mother's had been abused, suicidal and even severe alcoholics and they STILL never hated or estranged themselves from there mothers!

So what does this tell us?

Maybe our kids need to grow up and show a little compassion, gratitude, loyalty and respect.

I sometimes wonder if my worst failing as a mother was to allow this ungrateful, heartless brat of mine to manipulate, guilt, intimidate and railroad right over me! I'd like to see how well she'd fair and do as a mother under the same conditions!

In summation, I think you're right to expect to be treated with respect and honour as their mother. You're a beautiful person and it's obvious how much you love your family. Though it's not easy, let's try not to let them guilt us to death and learn to forgive ourselves, since I know we never meant in anyway to harm our kids or make the mistakes we did.

Peace, midnight_crescent
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mothers estranged from adult children
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It's been close to 4 years from where this all started. The disrespect from my grown son escalated to the point where I told him to leave. His anger was out of control. My ex and I were separated due to his extra marital affairs. I felt I had to jolt him back to reality but instead he went to live with his father which made things worse. I kept the doors open, texting him often, telling him I love him and telling him that I didn't want this to be a permanent thing but his anger towards me got worse. Lashed out at me towards household things that "belonged to his father". Screamed and cursed at me. Many remarks about "this is my fathers house". Telling me that I was the reason for his anger. And with each explosion, I still kept the doors open. The final straw for me was a text that he sent me saying that "im sorry that you damaged me but I will no longer be controlled and manipulated". Those words cut me so deep. I still can't get past it. I was the mother who went to extremes to make sure my kids were never damaged emotionally. The mother who wanted my kids to always see both parents sitting in the stands at their games to have that memory forever, not knowing that I made their father go to the game. The mother who protected them from knowing of their fathers first affair because I thought it was a mistake and these kids shouldn't lose respect for their dad or look at him badly. I wanted them to be proud of their parents. I would have stayed in a loveless marriage so they would always feel safe and always feel like they had a home base. And he says those words to me? I damaged him. At that point I wasn't taking anymore. All communication stopped. I thought he's not hearing from me now he will realized what he has said and done and I thought the lightbulb will go on and then he will come back and tell me he is so sorrry for that and all the undeserved disrespect. One month later I get a happy birthday text. I dont respond. The next month Merry Christmas. Again I dont respond. The remorse and apology never comes. Eventually the pleasantry text continue for both of us. Only holidays. Merry Christmas, Happy Birthday but nothing on Mothers Day. Obviously, everyone on this post understands that hurt. The day to celebrate the person who raised you, loved you, took care of you, gave you a good life and I get nothing. That's a hurt beyond words. This is the son that I was so close to. Always close to. Never could have imagined this happening. I miss my son but I feel like he needs to come back to me. I can forgive him but I can't forgive if hes not sorry and if he thinks what he did was acceptable. I won't allow him to treat me that way. At this point I feel like this is the way it is and the way it will be and I will never stop loving him in my heart and will never stop hurting in my heart.
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Hello all! First, let me just say that English is not my native language, so if you see something misspelled (like my username!) or some expression that doesn't make much sense, I apologize in advance. It took me a few days just to read all of your posts. It makes me feel a bit better knowing that I'm not alone, but still doesn't make the pain go away. I started at about a month ago my process of estranging my parents. I’m 31 years old and it took really a lot for me to realize the truth and face that I was left with no other choice. I’ll explain you why this happen, but first, I have some serious challenges to face and learn to cope with during my estrangement process. Challenge 1: I work in the same company as my mother! Even though we do not work even in the same building, we still have random encounters, such as accidently cross in the canteen, or in the parking lot. Challenge 2: unlike my brother, that went to work in a foreign country (something like 2400km~1500miles), my house is only at 8km (5miles) from theirs. And no, at the moment, moving it’s not an option for numerous reasons. I’m learning how to deal with this, still at an early stage. And, finally, Challenge 3: I have no insurance coverage for the therapist, so I had to reduce the frequency of the appointments, to ease the life on the household expenses, especially since we are in a financial crisis and taxes just keep skyrocketing! Regarding the estrangement. What caused it. It all comes from long years ago, since I can remember. My family is pure and simply dysfunctional. My father is a spoiled selfish guy, that believes that mankind exists just to serve his wishes. He believes that he belongs to some sort of superior race (yeap, nazi style!) and mistreats everyone around. Even though we try to remind him that his own mother used to belong to the what-he-calls-the-inferior-race, he uses his selective amnesia skills. He is a looser that doesn’t try hard for anything, even though he was lucky to find a job that pays way above the national average. He is smokes weed and axis for many years now, what increases his paranoia and delusions. When people ask me why don’t smoke weed and stuff when I go to Amsterdam, here’s why! My mother, on the other hand, used to belong to family and, some day, her father vanished, leaving my mother, her 3 brothers and sisters and her mother with no money. At the time, my grandmother didn’t work. So, in a blink of an eye, she went from an economical stable life style to a situation where she had to work for survival of the whole family. My grandmother didn’t work and she was dysfunctional herself towards my mother. That turned my mother into an extremely jealous person, possessive and what people call a “weekend alcoholic”. In working days, she controls herself more or less, but on non-working days, she drinks like very few do even on college parties! Well, I’ll tell you a couple of episodes that describe the emotional abuse that has always reined around my family and how they act. When I was around 8, my brother went to first grade elementary school (he had just turned 6). At school, he had problems articulating sentences, he didn’t use the words in the right place in the sentences. His teacher told my parents that he was mentally challenged and should be followed by the correct therapists. In that very same day, my father started to mistreat my mother and brother, making them to run away from home for a few a days. In the meantime, he tried to turn me (an 8 year old!!!) against them! Well, after things cooled down, they returned home and my brother went to therapy. And guess what, after taking tests, he was found to be way more intelligent than the average kids of his age! And as he was on an age where we learn how to articulate speech, his reasoning was way faster than his ability to speak, so he was clumsy while talking. Now, as he was not “retarded” after all, he was already a fine kid, worthy of my father’s love and attention. Other episodes happened while my mother is alone at home with us. As my father took shifts on his work, he was not at home sometimes during weekends or in the evening. My mother stated to drink and she fires her anger towards us. She did it countless times. Yelling, threatening that she would abandon us (even when we were at ages around 10 ou 12 years old), etc. She and my father just love and hate each other. In a minute they are kissing, in the other minute they are fighting, screaming, throwing things at each other, etc. But in the middle of all this, I was always the one in that family that tried to put out the fires. The one that took it all, that tried, at any price, reach a few more days of cease-fire. And then, it came the day I met the woman with whom I went to live together. First, her family belong to the “so called inferior race” (note: inferior race are not just a matter of skin colour, also people of lower income, lower education, etc.). Second, they realized I don’t belong to them only. Since then, things just got worse and worse. My mother just kept on calling me (sometimes drunk, sometimes sober) yelling at me, insulting my wife, insulting me, etc. One day, we organized a dinner at our place with both our parents, to give them the best news ever: my wife was pregnant. When we told, her parents jumped off the seats happy. My parents, for a few seconds were in shock, as if they were told that someone died on a car accident. And since the pregnancy and the child’s birth, things just kept going, with me always trying to put out the fires. Until one day, some weeks ago, it all exploded for the last time. I arranged with them to spend Sunday afternoon with them, together with my daughter. And, as we only arranged for the afternoon, in the morning, we went to the beach with my in-laws. While I was at the beach, they called to confirm at what time would we meet. When they realized that we were “committing the offense” of spending the morning with my “inferior race in-laws” and only the afternoon with them, they started once again, screaming, mistreating me, etc. And that was it. It was the day when I said enough. After getting home, giving diner to the baby, putting her to bed, etc., I just started to cry like I’ve never, ever, cried before. It was just way too many years of this. I don’t see myself in the role they tried to bring up. I don’t believe in “superior” or “Inferior” races. I don’t believe that women are worse than man, gays are worse than straight, Africans are worse than Europeans, etc. I don’t believe that people are there to serve us. I believe in equality, peace, love, caring, etc. I believe that if we want something we have to work for it. I believe we should help those in need. I believe that you can be either a good or a bad person regardless of whether you are son of a king or from a single mom in a ghetto. And I want my life! I want to be myself! I don’t want to feel the adrenaline rushing in my body when the phone rings because it might be them screaming at me for no reason again. I don’t want to be with them just because they brought me to the world and feel entitled to mistreat me and take it all on me. I don’t want to feel the anger I feel inside of me towards them, because I just don’t believe in anger. Anger only brings more sadness. Now, I’m doing therapy, starting my estrangement despite the additional challenges I have to face. Sorry for the XL text, but it’s the first time I write about it. For those who did it, thanks for reading it. Honestly!
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Adults Estranged from Parents
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Hi to everyone, I found this forum with google and I can just say I am so happy to have found a place where I feel less alone... I relare to everyone, especially to sage121 as I'm too in the process of estrangement from my parents and only brother after 32 years of denial that anything was wrong of out of place... when I first confronted them I felt like the ground was opening beneath to swallow me, but after that and a long work on myself, I am finally beginning to enjoy life as I deserve... I wanted to cite this sentence from silver: "I can forgive someone, meaning that I no longer hold something against them. Forgiving them, doesn't mean I trust them. Trust needs to be earned. A simple "I'm sorry" doesn't rebuild trust after years of emotional and sometimes physical abuse. Especially, when their bad behavior continues after they have said they are sorry." that is expecially true. at first you are so angry, also because you're disappointed that yours are not the perfect parents, but just human persons with their defects. then you come to terms with their humanity, and start to go on with your life; but this doesn't mean that you trust them back: no matter they said they're sorry and want to make amends, when all they believe is that they have done their best and you're just being difficult about silly things... and they go on as before. they keep telling that mine was not an abusive family and for most part it's true, they didnt beat me, or come home drunk, but I remember-and this is the first time I talk about this ever to anyone-that a friend of my brother who's 5 years older than me use to be abusive of me from 6 to 10 years old, touching me and making me touch him... my mother became aware of that and instead of kicking the boy out, spoke to me telling that "I had to stop letting him do those things or she would be forced to tell dad and he would make him leave"...I was 6 or 7, and had no means to make him stop... but he was best buddy with my brother who of course is parents' pet, and at the time I was just so focused on getting the love of my big bro' that for years I endured his abuse in secret for fear of him being kicked out and my brother put the blame on me. I felt, god, still feel so dirty and ashamed of this that I've never told anyone, but that was just a big situation in which my parents (especially my mom) refused to side up with me, leaving me with the weight of doing myself what should have been their job, protect me. my brother, on the other hand, has always been the sicky mommy's boy, so even through his adulthood, they've felt their responsibility to shelter him from any thing bad... while I was the tough one who could do by herself, and they take for granted every thing that I accomplish. which they say, is because they have great esteem in my abilities, and I say, ok it's flattering, but hey, your're my parents, it would be nice to have a little cheering from you from time to time. moreover, I choose academic research while he's in industry, so he has a fairly easier life than mine: a permanent, secure job, a house, a wife in the same condition while on the other hand, I have a fellowship which last a year, my partner has a temporary job and obviously we are in a rented house 'cause we can't afford to buy one... but HE is the poor one, the one who needs their help, while we're tough and somehow, we'll manage.... they also started to take big life (and economic) decisions which favoured him (for example, they're having a baby soon-first grandchild) and they're deciding to sell everything at home to buy a house to be near to him, in case he needs any help with the baby... leaving me by myself, for the future too. and I can bet that once they are old they will "offer" (cause obviosly, they say it's them who offer, not the golden boy who asks) to move in bro's small house, leaving them the big hose with the garden... I tried to talk them out of this madness, but they refuse to think that it's wrong, keep saying they would do the same for me, if I were in his shoes... but I know it's just b*****it. we talked about is some time ago (as they're getting older and live some time from here) telling them 'why dont you come to live closer?' (also to try being the perfect little girl and please them) and they kept stalling the decision to look for houses, and then, weeks after my bro told them they're expecting, they merrily announced they were making plans to sell their house and they were looking at new ones near him.... I feel so bad, angry, frustrated, disillusioned...guilty when they call me and seem so sad, and then angry again with myself for feeling guilty.... my partner too is involved as they treated him with poor respect in some occasions (and he doen't want anything to do with them) and every time they keep saying that they've done nothing wrong... I've been in this trap for years, until I realized that I had started to hurt him in order to avoid confronting my parents as it would leed to their disappointment in me, and because I refused to aknowledge the truth of my dysfunctional family... I also felt so ashamed of this situation (of me barely talking to them)....also because here (I'm italian) it is almost a public disgrace not to feel bound to one's family, something people should never know about. I am trying to keep my head up but it's hard. it's good to know that I'm not alone... big hug to everyone!
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Hi everyone reading, Hello Josi! Glad you are still here, good to hear from you! :) I was away for a few days visiting friends. Hard to know what to post, I struggle with that too. I think we are all looking for feedback, advice, and maybe a new view on our own situation, something we have never thought of before. That is what I am looking for anyways, and have found. I hope my experience can help others, even in some small way. I appreciate honest opinions and feedback, even though they may not always be completely applicable to 'me', since nobody knows all the details of my life. I was in a bad relationship too, an alchoholic who was abusive. Funny how that happens, as that is how my father was. You always hear about how we repeat our parents patterns, but never think it will happen to you. Same thing, people always had great things to say about him, and when I was unhappy with the relationship. I felt guilty and I blamed myself. Same thing as my parents did to me, blamed me, made me feel flawed. We did love eachother, but I realized after the fact that we did not share the same core values, and simply did not get along on a day to day basis. I didn't like his family, and they didn't like me. Why stay with someone when your co-existence is not happy? I don't know why I stayed. But I stayed and stayed and stayed. Hoping it would get better. Yes, I tried to change him. I had fears of leaving, being alone, didn't feel anyone else would ever love me. It ended horribly. But leaving him was the best thing I ever did. I remember the day I left, it was like the weight of the world was lifted off my shoulders. My self esteem was very low, I felt ugly. But I made some big changes in my life at that time. And as you described so well, I created the person I wanted to be, the 'real' me. My marriage right now is a stark contrast to my former relationship as well, the two could not be more different! While I feel lucky, I also feel that the changes I made in my life after leaving my ex were very positive on many levels, which allowed me to meet someone as wonderful as my husband. You said: "But I had finally gotten to the point where I could see that clearly, I got nothing good out of the marriage. I catered to all his emotional needs as well as acted like some sort of caregiver-slash-personal assistant, yet he was completely removed from my life, my friends, my feelings. So I starting to think, you know, good riddance. I have nothing to lose." Well said Josi, I can relate to those feelings. You get to a point where there is nothing to lose - and only something to gain. I feel the same way with the relationship with my parents, it had gotten to the point where there was just no common ground. And the worst part of it was, I didn't feel my parents wanted to try to find any common ground. They maintained their staunch 'I am right-you are wrong' attitude no matter how much I spilled my guts, and tried to get through to them. I just wanted them to say 'I care'. That never happened. You said: "...I had a close friend, actually an ex-boyfriend who honestly told me that things around me wouldn't change unless I changed myself." So very true, it took me what seems like forever to really believe this. We have to take responsibility for our own lives. Whether it is the relationship with our parents, our spouse or our friends. We are in control of how we feel and we dictate how others treat us. We are not victims of circumstance. "If I didn't like to be perceived a certain way, I had to quit presenting myself that way, because that wasn't the real me." Well said, again! My mother likes to maintain the greeting card relationship with me, that was the biggest part of our relationship from many many years. It was the minimal contact, and I was OK with that for a long time. I think that may have ended now. Or maybe not. We'll see. I want it to end. Although she did send my husband a birthday card a couple months ago. I know what you mean by hanging onto any shred of hope though. I used to do that too and when I was in a place of 'minimal contact' with them, I found myself in more turmoil then, than I do right now - which is without any contact at all since January. But it is a very personal decision that only you can make when the time is right. Josi, I think it was Dave who said this awhile ago.....you don't have to decide right now what you are going to do, or where your relationship will end up with your parents. Perhaps you will become completely estranged, or maybe slowly reconcile. I know how conflicting the feelings are though, it is not easy. Go with what feels right for you. Congratulations on your new house! That is very exciting. I think it is natural to want to share big events like that with your parents, I know I did that myself for many years, but was often just disappointed with their reactions. I feel now, in hindsight, that they didn't really want me to be happy and successful for some reason. They were not really what I would call successful or happy themselves, so maybe that had something to do with it. Nothing ever really impressed them, and they were always so judgemental, nothing was ever quite good enough. What they think, and their opinions do not matter at the present moment. What matters is what you think, and what your friends and family who love and support you and your husband think. And what I have found is that those who truly do love us, support us with things that make us happy and that we consider accomplishments. Easier said than done, and I don't say this 'off the cuff'. It is something I am working hard on doing myself and it has not been easy. I find myself slipping into thoughts about worrying what my parents are saying to others about me now that I have cut off contact with them. I don't know why I care, but I do. I just know my mother has a way of twisting things that is so frustrating. My whole life I have always felt on the defensive with her, explaining myself. It is a relief to not do that anymore. Thanks for posting Josi, you have alot of good thoughts to share which I always find inspiring. Hang in there with your parents, I hope you will find some peace-of-mind with the situation, I know it is not an easy situation. Sage
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laurene1970
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
HI Again,
Haven't been able to bring myself to write lately. Very confused. I went to a counselor who told me that I am only responsible for my thoughts and actions and my daughter for hers. However, she also said "SO WHAT" if my daughter acted rude or didn't talk to me. No one can change another person and I just have to email my daughter to tell her I miss her and love her. The counselor said then my daughter will either contact me or not, but I need to show her love and support and wait patiently because after all I AM THE MOTHER and she may be emotionally immature like an adolescent. I still think she needs to be accountable for the hurts she has caused me. My counselor says "NO". It's not important because she doesn't mean to act this way. WHAT ABOUT ME AND MY FEELINGS?"
Please someone help me out. I am so confused.
penbyrd
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
From everything I have read and researched, the choice is if you want the relationship, be kind and loving from your heart and your feelings just don't matter(to her) if you want any kind of relationship. If she acts emotionally immature you have to decide if you want a relationship with this person as she is or no realtionship at all.

Its a tough decisions. One I didn't have a chance to make. DS just cut himself off cold turkey over 3 years ago--only communicates rude , unkind things through his GF. I finally blocked her emails,calls as didn't seem as though he was getting the info and she was just outright rude.

I have an emotionally immature, lying mother and have made a decision to not call her. We are not totally estranged and she can call me whenever she wants, but rarely does unless she needs something no one else can provide---I am at the bottom of her list--have been my whole life. I don't want to pretend---or maybe I am just not able to pretend that she is not a backstabbing liar and always has treated me like crap. I am her daughter and just don't think you can change people either they love you or they don't and realize I can't change her or my DS----I can only control my self and be kind. They actually both became became mean to me the one time I got sick and needed them as in the past I was always the strong one who helped them. I guess it is true you know if love is unconditional when there are reough times and someone sticks by your side or runs. Both mother and DS ran and I would have given my lofe for either---not so sure anymore.
midnight_crescent
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
Hi everyone...I have something that I feel I really must say here.

On August 9th, I introduced myself onto this site. I had never blogged before. I'm not a computer person. I always felt it to be impersonal and too easy to hide behind.

But, because of the isolation and stigma attached to a child's estrangement, it seemed the only place left to go to seek comfort and support from others who truly understood. Unfortunately, there are no support groups that I've been able to find in both Long Island (where I used to live) and Florida (where I live now). There are many bereavement groups, but none for child estrangement nor for stalking, as in my case. In fact, the amount of ignorance by the Psychiatric community (not to mention, public at large) is staggering on both subjects.

Given this said, it has been a long lonely haul for me since I've had to deal enormous devastation and trauma without any help or show of compassion on both fronts. In fact, I've had to deal, even worse, with cruel ignoramouses who have told me stupid things like..."Oh, have you read the 'Secret'...you must be putting out negative energy and therefore caused these terrible things to happen"...or "Oh, you've been stalked, are you on any medication for your paranoia"..."oh, your daughter doesn't talk to you, what did you do to make her so angry...you know she's an adult and has her own mind now"..."oh, your parents have abused you, we'll you must have done something to dissappoint them and make them angry"...and so on. Got the picture?

Getting back to the point I wanted to make here...

On August 9th, I was as close as one could ever get to being at wits end (I'm sure you know what I'm talking about). I reached out in desperation to the people on this site for some show of compassion as I felt frightened of the state of mind I reached on that day. Only one person acknowledged me at all and responded back with compassion and kind words. Thank G-d, for someone like jstvup. As for the rest of you, you ought to be ashamed!

If we had been face to face as one would be in a support group, it would be unthinkable to not welcome a new member and show some sign of caring. It's so easy to hide behind a computer isn't it, not to mention, cold and cowardly at that.

Thanks to all, but one of you, for adding to the desperate sense of aloneness that propagated me to reach out in the first place. Could you all be that self-centered or is this a click I stepped into where I didn't make the grade?!

midnight_crescent
penbyrd
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
midnight cresant,

I don't think it is that others on this site do not care about your story or your desparation, it is that they too are dealing with the same or similiar crisis at the same time and may not be in a position to help you as they don't even know how to help themselves. I being one of them. I feel for you and your situation and pray things will get better for you. I have written posts on this thread and many others--at times a person responds or I feel able to respond to someone and reach out to help from my experiences. Remember this is a forum for estranged mothers----we are not paid or trained counselors. I find at times it is just nice to read others stories to not feel so alone. I appreciate what advice and thoughtfulness I get, but also try to understand that these people are facing the same challenges I am. The day I read your particular post---I did feel for you and want to reach out, it was not that I didn't care, I simple had so much pain in my own heart that I didn't have the strenght or feel I could be of much help to you as on that particular day, I was quite depressed and cried all day---to be honest I am that way most days. I do feel for you and wish I could help, but I also struggle with the same issues and unfortuately have not found a way to deal with them as of yet. Since I am still so angry at both my DS and Mother for reasons similiar to yours---my email to you probably would have been quite discouraging as I have yet to oversome these obstacles in my life---I have yet to move on---I have basically wasted at least 3 years of my life as a worthless, depressed person. I hope you understand this and realize that my lack of response was not due to not caring as I do care and do relate, I just don't have what it takes to make someone else feel better--I wish I did. Maybe others feel the same way.
witchiepoo
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
good evening...

i have been away and under the weather in more ways than one. it feels good to be back here posting.

we teach others how to treat us. personally...i think we can still luv our estranged children, keep our doors open and live in a mode of grace. having said that....if they behave in a way that is abusive ....we can choose to not participate.

there will always be others ....professionals included...that will have opinions that differ from ours or theirs. i think we all have to do what feels right for us. if we behave or act in that matter and it doesn't work out...it may at another time OR NOT.

in the meanwhile...keeping luving yourself...raven
midnight_crescent
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
penbyrd,

I'm sorry for your pain, but I think you missed the point.

To begin with, to write (as if you speak for everyone)..."We are not paid or trained counselors", is extremely condescending. Who said I expected you were!

I'm no different than anyone else on this sight, reaching out for support and sharing from those who understand and know how isolating and painful estrangement can be.

Secondly, you just responded with no problem to someone else today before I ever wrote that last message, huh?

My gaud, I reached out, in desperation and that you ignored? And then you write this? Why write back anything to me if you're going to insult me this way.

Perhaps, relationships, in general, might not be so messed-up, if people knew how to step out of their crap for a minute and give a moment of kindness to someone else who urgently needs it. They might even find by doing so, it comes back to them in ten-fold when they are in the same position.

Btw, would you tell a friend who's seeking comfort from you..."Sorry, I can't help you, I'm too upset myself and I'm not a shrink"? Well, I wouldn't want a friend like you if you did, because that wouldn't be a friend at all.

Well, it's a sad a statement when one goes to a support site to get the same speech. After all, this is a SUPPORT sharing and discussion site last time I checked. At least, it says it is.

Just so you all know, the words..."Hello and WELCOME...we care", would have taken but a minute and would have satisfied me just fine. But, it seems I'm asking too much here, huh? Now you suggest I should pay someone to say it, like a therapist!

What a world we live in...G-d help us all!

midnight_crescent
kaynsd
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
midnight -
you seem to be throwing stones. no one owes you any explanation as to why they didn't respond. but penbyrd gave you one and you dumped all over it. people spend time on this site for whatever reason they have.

sweety, read your first message, i did and i saw, kidnapping, stalking, suicidal, kidnapping, police, mysterious, sabatoge, 48yrs and living w/wealthy abusive parents and i went wooooooooaaaaa. i was speechless. sorry i didn't respond either. that's way out of my league.

and you are criticizing some poor mom who's child has rejected her. who's treating who crappy?

you're pointing your finger at her for not helping you out? wow, this is a website blog with a bunch of strangers on it. it's not a hotline. and yes, we are not paid counselors.

penbyrd... i hope you don't take midnights rant to heart. you clearly have enough going on and deserve support not criticism. i think this midnight was being hurtful - and to a perfect stranger no less. who actually did reach out . you've got enough crap going on. be strong. this sounds like stupid stuff, but my only advise is to keep moving forward and 1) stop blaming yourself about your ds and 2) there is life outside of parenting - go and live your life

it's all good.
anniebal
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
midnight crescent, I find your posts a bit hostile, and I"m not sure why, or where it's coming from? People here don't want to be lectured that we are lacking in sensitivity
because we chose not to respond to your post. It had nothing to do with being in a click, or anything else that paranoid.

I read your post, and read the follow ups as well and simply felt i had nothing more to contribute than what had already been stated. I could've repeated the same advice, but what's the point? If I'd read a response to your post that I didn't agree with I certainly would have chimed in (as I'm doing now.)

I don't agree with you attacking penbyrd, and I think you are taking your anger out in places that it doesn't belong. We're all hurt and angry, and we don't need someone else besides our family members who have hurt us jumping down are throat, because we didn't live up to 'your' expectation of us.

How is "we are not trained counselors" condescending exactly? What Penbyrd said was truer then true, please elaborate on your comment. Most of us are not trained and are learning as we go through no choice of our own. Where does your comment come from "who said I expected you were?" I'm sorry but that is just unnecessary.

You know I doubt anyone of us would tell a friend that 'I can't help you right now because I'm too upset myself,' yet many of us would feel terrible after talking to a friend who was so miserable. Add that misery on top of the indescriable pain we are already going through and one could seriously push themselves over the edge.

However, this sight is not our close friends, it is a support system. We don't have to come here and shouldn't feel guilty for not responding because we feel too bad ourselves, but I can see that choice for what it really is, and that is survival.

Please, you really need to get off your soapbox and quit being so dramatic. Whenever I've posted anywhere, I never get a response from every poster on the forum. A few respond one time, another few respond the next, and I've never once thought that was because the other people didn't care. We chime in when we feel we can and should, but we don't comment on every single post or we'd have no time to do anything else.

How sad that you feel you needed to come here and jump down our throats and especially penbyrds. It makes me question to some degree what your expecting in your other relationships.
uponreflection
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
My first reaction to reading midnight crescent's first two posts was "this is too much to address."

Then I looked at the times of the posts and noticed there were 65 SECONDS between posts which said to me that the writer had composed them and then copied and pasted them on the forum. That told me that she was being manipulative.

Her further posts have only served to reinforce that belief.
anniebal
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
uponreflection, interesting discovery re midnight crescent. I feel that her post was very manipulative, very much like the behavior our family member has done to us (and does.) I don't need anyone coming here and laying guilt trips on because I didn't live up to their standards. I do what I can and so does everyone else here, and to expect anymore is just wrong. The way she went on, you would have thought penbyrd told her she didn't deserve support.
penbyrd
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
midnight cresant,

I am sorry you were offended by my words. I actually responded because I felt bad that you did not feel you got the support you needed from this site and I felt partly responsible by my lack of response. I just wasn't able to respond at the time as I was feeling overwhelmed and did not want to give you a discouraging response as I am currently very angry at the estrangers in my life. I respond or write when and if I am able, as my depression, anxiety limit my ability to function (not just writing, but simple everyday tasks), but I do want to share or help when I feel I am able. My ability to handle the sadness/hurt/anger in my life changes from day to day, even minute to minute. I do seek help from a therapist and have attempted suicide since the estrangements in my life have occurred.

You know how on an airplane how they say to put your own oxygen mask on first before assisting others, well I guess that was my point. I just didn't want you to feel so alone and hoped it might help you to think that many people on this site may not have had their own oxygen mask on at the time you posted. Or in my case, there are times I am able to put my oxygen mask on and times when I can't.

I did not mean to speak on behalf of everyone on this site as I can only speak for myself, but really meant for my post to be an apology for my not responding to your initial posts and to let you know that I do care, but am not/was not in a position to respond appropriately to you. I wish I was.

You are right I do not know if people on this site are trained counselors or therapists and for that I am sorry--I was under the impression, maybe incorrectly, that this forum was for ordinary people to share similiar experiences.

Anyway, I am sorry if I offended you and I do wish you the best and I truly do understand the pain involved with estrangements and how awful you must feel. My thoughts and prayers are with you.
witchiepoo
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
today is a hard day. my last and youngest daughter is leaving for college. i truly am an empty nester. as expected....a loss triggers previous losses...which is the loss of my 2 older children. as we all know...it's not something you ever get over. however...it really wasn't till a couple months ago where my oldest grandaughter was angry in an email she sent me. i won't go into the details here but it was the first time ever where i could tell she has been told things from her mother which has made her angry at me. this had not happened before. i know now her mother has said some things in some manner to make her feel this way. it breaks my heart. today is sad and days like this are painful and full of sadness for me.

i am thinking if she writes me again and communicates some hostility or anger towards me i will speak up and ask her why haven't i been asked to participate in her life...why haven't i received a birthday card, or an invitation to a holiday dinner...or ever been even once invited to a school event?

the pain and loss just so hurts sometimes.

my life is changing once again and wonder what life has in store for me in the next 5 years.

smiles to all....raven
anniebal
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
raven, please forgive my not remembering or knowing, but you are estranged from your daughter? It is your daughter who won't let you see your granddaughter, or is telling your granddaughter lies about you? Did you have a relationship before with your granddaughter?

I would definitely ask the questions your considering. She needs to know you care and were hurt that you weren't more involved in her life AND that it wasn't your choice.

I am sad for you with your youngest daughter leaving. It hurts so much to have them go. Who could imagine they would grow up so quickly, time truly does fly. Still, she is gone but not forgotten and she will miss you too. How does she get along with your other children?

Is your youngest going far away to college, or is it something you can make within a reasonable amount of time?
Hopefully it's not so far that you can't see her on week ends or holidays.

Be happy, you deserve it.

anniebal
midnight_crescent
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
penbyrd,

I thought I'd never look back at this site again. Yet, something told me to look once more. For some reason, I had the feeling there was a message I was supposed to read.

Well, I'm glad it I did. What a beautiful message you wrote. It took alot for you to do that, despite the way things left off. It seems like our wires have been crossing, so to speak, even still just a little. The only thing left to clarify is the point about the trained counselor/therapist part. I knew this support/discussion site did not have trained counselors. I was not looking for that here. I was trying to connect and both give and recieve support from other mothers who have been going through the same confusing, isolating and devastating loss as I have.

I admire the sensitivity, concern and openess you've just shown, particularly in your last letter to me. Thank you. And I'm sorry for coming down so harsh on you in expressing my feelings. The therapist part hit a very sensitive nerve because on my last Birthday, someone who was supposed to be a good friend, kicked the heck out of me when I was down (on my Birthday, no less!)and left the most condescending, dear jane message you could ever imagine. He used the words..."I'm not a telephone counselor, but I can be your friend in my heart even though we may never speak again", i.e. don't expect to hear from me anytime soon. This was less than four months after I moved back to Florida. I arrived in January to everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, going bizarrely wrong. It wasn't long before I found my self broke, unable to obtain work in a place that has one of the worst economies in the nation and was facing the prospect of imminent homelessness immediately after my March Birthday. Btw, this, so called, friend had been laid off from his job and hadn't worked in almost a year. I had been very supportive to him throughout his ordeal. Yet he, amazingly, critisized and knocked me on my new employment delemna with the above speech in response for my asking for the same emotional courtesy and encouragement as I gave him while he was down and out. So, I hope you can see how I was especially sensitive on the 'therapist' part.

As you mentioned in one of your prior posts, about unconditional love and people sticking by your side during the tough times; how hard it seems to find that anymore. I found out through the hard times, sadly, just how shallow friends could be. Like they say, if you have one good friend in your lifetime, you're very lucky. It seems to be true, at least for me.

I've read a bit of your posts, though I've been having trouble translating some of the acrynomyms, i.e. I'm not sure what DS stands for exactly, etc. I see you've been through enormous pain yourself and I'm so sorry for what you've been going through and I'm also sorry if I upset you with my posts. I know what it's like to be brought to the point of wanting to take your own life as I was feeling that way when I wrote my first blog. That's why it added to my intense sense of aloneness when I got only one response to my desperately plea for kindness in a forum which professes to be caring and supportive. Though, I will say, the one response I did get was wonderful and meant very much to me.

As for the hateful comments that were directed at me by some others on this site, they were twisted, viscious, presumptious, and Junior High like. That's all I'll say on that subject, as they do not deserve any more attention than that.

Tomorrow morning, I have a big decision to make and that is whether to drive almost 1400 miles up to NY to compete in the same Triathlon I've done for the past 2 years. It means alot to me as its symbolizes, whenever I see my medals on my perfume tray, that no matter how bad things get, I'm still strong and nothing will ever break my spirit. This has also weighed heavily on my mind as I've gained over ten pounds since my move, have not worked out at all and am also broke and would have to charge the gas and sleep in my car to do it, then have hell to pay when my parents find out as I'm at their financially mercy, which kills me. I also admit, that I'm terribly home sick for the beauty of where I used to live in Long Island and want so desperately to go back. The nature there is breathtaking and I feel so much at peace when I walk through the woods or along the shore. It's like being nurished spiritually to me. In Florida there's been none of that and it's essential to who I am. I know it would be crazy to go tomorrow, so we'll see.

Anyway, I do pray for your happiness and your family to be reunited. You appear to have a truly good heart and I really wish this for you as I wish this for all of us.

Goodnight,
midnight_crescent
jstgvup
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
midnight-crescent... I am glad I was able to be there for you. It is so easy to feel isolated and alone when going through a heartbreaking situation...sometimes it is hard to believe that anyone can understand exactly what you are experiencing...but after reading these posts, I am sure you will agree that we all have been through differing but similar situations. Like someone mentioned,sometimes we can either not know how to respond or be at such a low point ourselves that we are unable to respond sympathetically. I think that though this "thread" is very helpful it is not the same as having someone there in person to talk to that has experienced an estrangement, someone that can give you a much-needed hug,etc.;also that, as in up-close-and-personal contacts, we can sometimes misunderstand each other. I hope you will continue to feel you are welcome on this site and will continue to post. Just take what support that IS there for you and let whatever isn't there go. I was reading an article the other day on "letting go" and one of the tid-bits of wisdom was "Let go or be dragged", which for me spoke volumes as I have often felt dragged around in life by other peoples choices. The good news is I don't have to be if I will choose to let go. Peace and Blessings.
witchiepoo
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
hello everyone....

anniebal, thank you for your support. i have been gone 3 days moving my youngest daughter up to penn state (main campus). now that she is 4 hrs. away she will only be home for a major holiday. it is my oldest daughter and son (they each have children) that i am estranged from. it has been almost 20 yrs of on and off again estrangement...mostly off as the years have gone on. because of that my relationship with my 3 grandchildren is very infrequent and my other son (none at all).

it's funny about losses...because when you experience another loss it brings up past ones.

my youngest daughter who is up at penn state has had no relationship with my 2 oldest children. they really never wanted anything to do with her. basically she was shunned by them. she is turning 21 yrs. in december and has never received a birthday or christmas card...NO CONTACT. i have always felt so bad for her. so she grew up an only child and i can tell she has always been lonely. i know their issue or atleast part of it with her is all jealously.

anyway...that is a little of my story. with her being gone it just leaves this big empty space that feels like a big black hole. i am sure all of you know the feeling. it's a loneliness...a void. sometimes it's just all consuming.

tomorrow will be another day.

it is not easy for me to type what i am thinking. some of you are so good at it...i feel like i know u because of your wording. but pen and the written word is not my forte.

either way i knew i could come here this evening and share.

in luv & light...raven
heartbrke
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
I am new here so bear with me... I have two sons who both have wifes that are manipulative and abusive. I was married to their alcoholic father and abusive for 18 years of my life. And my sons both live here in the same town as I and don't hear from or see them and haven't in months.. My oldest son's wife I tried to be like a mother to her. And also I never got involved in their relationships ever... But I have read in this forum so many that are in the same boat or simular helps me feel I am not alone.
witchiepoo
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
dear heartbrke...

yes...you are NOT ALONE. i remember finding this forum for the first time. my girlfriend suggested the idea and it has provided me comfort. just yesterday...i was feeling down and knew i could come hear to post. sometimes it's easier to post than to call a friend. none of my friends have experienced this kind of loss. having said that...i feel safe and understood here.

keep posting...

smiles....raven
anniebal
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
witchipoo, I am so sad for you and I know the emptiness you describe all to well. My youngest son has lived home since college and just recently moved out. He isn't far away, yet it was so hard to have him go and I think especially so because of the situation with his brother.

Is there a big age gap (which it sounds like,) between your two older children and your youngest? Are they all from the same dad? I'm trying to figure out why they treated your youngest daughter so cold and cruelly. If there was a huge age gap, or another father I can see the jealousy thing. That being said however, I truly believe that some people are just born jealous and insecure and no amount of praise, reassurance and love is going to change that. Try to keep busy and the time will pass faster until the holidays. Can you go visit her inbetween the holidays to break up the length of time?

heartbrke, I'd like to say welcome but it's not exactly the kind of club one wants to belong to. This is a safe place to come to just as raven states. Raven is so right about friends not understanding, and how could they? They can only imagine what we're going through which unfortunately doesn't do justice to our situation. Trying to explain that it hurts worse then my father's death because my dad didn't choose to die just seems to fall on deaf ears. They just can't relate.

Friends tend to think they have all the solutions too. I know they are trying to be helpful, but at times it gets so frustating to hear them say try this, and try that, since we have tried everything under the sun with no success.

Manipulative and abusive seems to describe most if not all of the sons, daughters, or their spouses written about in these posts.

Heartbrk, have you tried contacting your sons, and if so, what happened? Are your sons close to each other and their wives, as in doing things together? Perhaps they talk, and the girls are both on the same page (as it sounds like they are.)

anniebal
straycat_wandering
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
I am new to this site. I actually found it during a late night search for answers to questions I still can't believe I need to ask.
I have lost all of my children, thus also losing a grandchild in the process. It's been almost two years, but it is permanent. The death of one of my children almost killed me, as my other children were well aware, so when they "disowned" me, they were/are aware of the impact upon my very soul. This is the reason our "estrangement" is permanent. I CANNOT be subjected to "walking on glass" or living this pain again.
So, I have an "old life" (with children and a grandchild) and now a "new life" (without children or a grandchild).
Parts of my lives "crossover" and I am trying to etch a nook for those areas, quite difficult as is the entire theme.
As I read through the postings, I noted several comments from people who don't have a clue about living with this situation. Which is/was upsetting. For those of you, I posted a reply on the next set of postings-I hope you will understand.
Because "Life is short-be kind"
witchiepoo
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
because my estrangement with my older kids has been for MANY years i have experienced a wide range of emotions. for many years i suffered with guilt, blaming myself and days where i had little self-worth. since then i have made remarkable progress and came to believe in myself. i would like to share with you...a self-luv prayer ...i said on a daily basis. perhaps it could provide u some comfort, as well, if u have those kinds of days...

enfold me in your rose pink wings.
let me know what it is to luv myself.
help me to give the luv and nurturing i
give to myself right now...as i have
none to give at this time.
help me to heal the
great wound in my heart.
help me to luv myself unconditionally and
to be kind to my best friend: me.
help me to understand i deserve luv.
i am worthy.
lift my troubled heart up to the level of
unconditional luv and let me bask in its
rosy pink glow.
thank you.

....raven
witchiepoo
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
oops....

line 4 should read....

help me to give the luv and nurturing i
give to others to myself right now...as i have
none to give at this time.
anniebal
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
witchipoo, I like the prayer very much. It is something I can use to help myself through this and not forget that I deserve better than how I'm being treated.

straycat, I'm so sorry about your estrangement and the unbelievalbe loss of your child. I of course can only imagine the pain you must have gone through, but I do feel somewhat understanding due to the situation with my son. The pain has been unbearable and I wonder many times if I can keep going and reach the other side. You do give me hope. How sad your other children cannot be there for you during the time in your life when you undoubtably need them the most.

anniebal
witchiepoo
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
straycat....you said "life is short b kind"....

kindness and grace....they always get me thru difficult situations. i haven't posted in a bit and read your message. i cannot feel your pain as u do but i can only imagine. please know u r not alone...i have experienced great loss but different from yours. i know support makes a huge or well THE DIFFERENCE in a person's life. i hope u have that in your life. please come back to this forum and keep posting.

the selfishness of man is too widespread but i know good people r the salt of the earth and once we find them we can perhaps see a little ray of sunshine.

thinking of everyone here...raven
jstgvup
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
Hi, everyone...Just wanted to share an excerpt from a book by Judith Viorst called-"Necessary Losses" that has helped me in dealing with many of the losses in my life..to some extent anyway. 'When we think of loss we think of the loss, through death, of people we love. But loss is a far more encompassing theme in our life. For we lose not only through death, but also by leaving and being left, by changing and letting go and moving on.And our losses include not only our separations and departures from those we love, but our conscious and unconscious losses of romantic dreams, impossible expectations, illusions of freedom and power, illusions of safety--and the loss of our own younger self,the self that thought it always would be unwrinkled and invulnerable and immortal. Somewhat wrinkled, highly vulnerable and non-negotiably mortal, I have been examining these losses, These lifelong losses. These necessary losses. These losses we confront when we are confronted by the inescapable fact.... that our mother is going to leave us, and we will leave her; that our mother's love can never be ours alone; that what hurts us cannot always be kissed and made better; that we are essentially out here on our own; that we will have to accept-in other people and ourselves-the mingling of love with hate,of the good with the bad; that no matter how wise and beautiful and charming a girl may be, she still cannot grow up to marry her dad; that our options are constricted by anatomy and guilt; that there are flaws in every human connection; that our status on this planet is implacably impermanent; and that we are utterly powerless to offer ourselves or those we love protection-protection from danger and pain, from the inroads of time, from the coming of age, from the coming of death;protection from our necessary losses. These losses are a part of life-universal,unavoidable, inexorable. And these losses are necessary because we grow by losing and leaving and letting go. For the road to human development is paved with renunciation. Throughout our life we grow by giving up. We give up some of our deepest attachments to others. We give up certain cherished parts of ourselves. We must confront, in the dreams we dream, as well as in our intimate relationships, all that we never will have and never will be. Passionate investment leaves us vulnerable to loss. And some times, no matter how clever we are, we must lose."
laurene1970
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
Hi Everyone
I ve been off the site for a couple of weeks because I'm so disturbed and having a hard time. Thanks for the advice on tough love and "Toxic" book. I sent an email to my daughter quite simply at the advice of my counselor.It said "miss you.sorry for your emotional turmoil with me...love you. The counselor wanted me to show sympathy for how my daughter is feeling, but also to let her know she is in turmoil and reacting. Well...no response, but she did tell my daughter in law that she was "all set" with me because I blamed her in the enail. I have loved her so much, been her biggest fan of any triumphs or obstacles in life and have many laughs with her. We were so very close. It still baffles me as to how she can just abandon me and our relationship.
Reminder:::::When she doesn;t have a boyfriend.she's wonderful W@hen she has one....she looks for a fight and dumps me. Has anyone else experienced this scenario?? I want her to find a good man and be happy but for God's sake why does she get rid of me??
straycat_wandering
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
Thank you so much everyone for the kind thoughts and words. As much as I would never even wish being rejected by one's child on anyone, it is so nice to know someone really understands my pain.
For laurene1970 when my daughter talked to me (sort of & some times) I picked up a book that is excellent. It's called "Mothers of Difficult Daughters"
and I think it would help you understand the reasons she "sometimes plays you."
The poem is so right on target...it describes perfectly that feeling of emptiness...total nothingness except the stabbing pain...in the center of my chest.
You all have such as wealth of knowledge to share and share so willingly-thank you so much.
I also did the counseling thing, but found it's almost impossible to explain the depth of pain. The words of advice, acknowledgment, and encouragement were great after a counseling session, but it's really hard to hear them or feel their message when you wake up in the middle of the night and your heart feels like it's been turned inside out, and your worse nightmare has come true.
My children were my life, and as much as I enjoyed every minute of that time I guess that is one place I made a big mistake.
So now I have a "new life," and some parts are excellent. I moved to another state, met and married a wonderful man (who thought he wanted children, but after seeing my pain changed his mind) and I work where everyday I am working to make a difference in someone's life, for the better.

"Necessary Losses"...thanks for sharing, it sounds like my next book.
Thank you all again.
anniebal
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
laurene, I'm sorry your daughter's response put the blame back on you. You have no idea how much that reminds me of my estranged son. It seems no matter how I put something, he turns it around to me having insulted or blamed him!! I could be trying to say that I take full responsibliity for what happened and he could still twist it around to meaning something it certainly didn't. He does this with my husband as well, and our relatives have noticed this when they try to talk to him regarding our situation.

I do remember your position, and how your daughter wants you unless she has a man in her life. Maybe this is what's going on with our son. Since he has had our dil in his life he doesn't seem to care about antyhing else. We had a very similar relationship as you describe regarding you and your daughter....loving, close, did lots together, etc. etc.

Maybe we need to act like we don't care. Like I suggested at another forum, maybe we need to play hard to get like we used to do in high school when we wanted a boy to notice us. It certainly seems like the more we do or did for him, the less he wanted us so perhaps we're too easy?

jstgvup, wow that is great! Thanks so much for sharing that, and now I've already purchased it on line. I could tell just from the excerpt that I need to read it.

straycat, you do an unbelievable job of defining the hurt and why therapy doesn't really help. I still go once in a while but I know it's mostly to vent since as much as I talk about getting over the pain it just never seems to leave.

I do think my mistake also was making my kids my entire life. I always thought that with the love and commitment I had to give my kids, that I would be reciprocated in kind. At one time it was mutual, but then it became as if I loved them too much and he couldn't handle that? Maybe it's proving independence, or maybe they are afraid of how much we love them? Perhaps they think we couldn't get along without them and that puts too much pressure on themselves? Maybe it's all or none as they say?

I wish I knew, I just don't understand it.

I'm so happy that you have found someone you love and are working on starting a new life. You deserve to be happy.

anniebal
starrs1414_yahoo_com
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
Anniebal & straycat
Wow! Anniebal your words of experience are so similar to mine . You really do understand as a "good, loving mother". What compassion and care you have.
Maybe our kids can't be loyal to two people in their lives so one has to go or maybe they just enjoy the power of using our unconditional love to"Bully us" in a sense (control). You know I'm thinking that maybe they really don't feel good or confident because they've leaned on us so much, that they want to cut us free out of fear when they have someone else. I'm so tired of thinking of the "WHY" it happened. I'm also am getting tired of feeling badly after counseling. It goes nowhere.
Anniebal, you are truly a caring person. Good luck with all you do.
Straycat
I think you explained perfectly how agonizing this situation is. When you go home at night, you are so right at how painful it is. I actually cried when i read your words, because it is so painful to those who have experienced it. I will get that book/thanks for recommending it!!
Good luck to you too.
You guys are the best!! Don't know what I'd do without you to help me feel ok at times.
sarahsmom
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
As I was reading this last post.. something came to my mind..
before things got as far as complete estrangement, I was having a conversation with my older son about the younger one. One thing he said has stayed with me, and if it could be said about the younger one, he could have easily embraced that thinking for himself..
He said.. you know, when suddenly you start to look at yourself and realize what you have done.. it is sort of overwhelming, so it's sometimes easier just to move on and not deal with all that...
YIKES!! I am trying to understand how you can do that, and what is worse, it's not the why anymore, but HOW can you just dump your family like last night's pizza...what did we teach them with our love and compassion? how did they interpret what we taught them to mean that they need to be just downright ugly, spiteful and mean? This is what just blows me away.. it's the lengths that they go to to make sure you know that you are not part of their lives anymore.
anniebal
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
Laurene, thanks for your kind words about my mothering. I do think I was a good mom but I'm not sure of anything anymore since this happened. I doubt myself all the time and think of the things I wish I could do over again if I could. None of that does any good.

Sarahsmom, your conversation with your older son is very revealing and could be well sum up the feelings of our estranged children. It's like they've dug the hole so deep that they can't come out, so they just keep digging. We didn't teach them this example, nor did their wonderful grandparents. The picture of our family was one of love, dedication and loyalty, how far our son has strayed from the wonderful examples both my parents and hubby's had set.

Maybe when they mature a bit they won't be so afraid to face the mistakes they've made and realize that we will forgive them if they just ask. Right now we'd be willing to just not talk about the past at all and move forward, no apologies necessary. however, we can't even get that far since the drama starts right back up if we talk to him.

anniebal
sarahsmom
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
Anniebal...

Something you said scares me... I just want to point this out.. I could be completely wrong and everyone has to do what is right for them, but.. during the conversation I was discussing... my son had come here to say that he never wanted to discuss the past and that we just needed to move forward.. there were no apologies.. I jumped in whole heartedly and said.. by all means.. love, hugs, etc..
WEll.. I saw him maybe 5 more times before this all fell completely apart. He said that we made he and his then fiance uncomfortable and he had to chose.. he said he couldn't have anything to do with us. In hindsight.. if I am ever presented with that opportunity again, while I wouldn't insist on any kind of apology, I will need to know
what was in his head that would make him able to toss away his family, 25 yrs of history, etc.. If I don't know what it was that caused this, then I will inevitably do it again. I too don't even have that as an option, I am just hoping ahead:-)

just my thoughts... please don't doubt yourself.. especially when there is no explanation from them.. it would have happened no matter what we did.. in my case, I know they were looking for something to turn into the big "offense"..

hugs to you all..
laurene1970
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
Anniebal,
Yes you were and are a good mother. We are givers not "takers" which is why we question ourselves and try to think about what we could have done differently. If you showed love and compassion and were supportive then you would expect to be treated the same way. However, this immature attitude of our children is not something we could have predicted. My daughter took and took support, love and whatever else she sought, over and over again. I thought i was being a good mother but I enabled her to treat me this way (estranged)-- Because i love her unconditionally. I'm serious about what I have to say..I'm sick and tired of crying and thinking and rethinking about this. If we ever talk again and if she really needs my support..guess what???.She will mature because I'm not giving the way I did. She;ll grow up. Either sink or swim because they don't care if you sink or swim or drown. If I sound bitter, I am, I have been a good mother. There is nothing in this world that can justify the way I am being treated and I;m sure you personally feel the same way. Good day, peace and love.
TALK TO YOU SOON. p.S. Anniebal how old is your son?
magoo_2006
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
"I'm sick and tired of crying and thinking and rethinking about this. If we ever talk again and if she really needs my support..guess what???.She will mature because I'm not giving the way I did. She;ll grow up. Either sink or swim because they don't care if you sink or swim or drown. If I sound bitter, I am, I have been a good mother. There is nothing in this world that can justify the way I am being treated and I;m sure you personally feel the same way. "

Laurene, I feel exactly the same way. Every human being has their limits, even loving parents. Loving parents can only take so much abuse even from their own kids. I honestly believe that at some point you have to quit catering to your grown kds and like Laurene said, make them grow up and then maybe someday they will look back and appreciate what they once had in their loving parents. Until then I have nothing to do with my abusive grown son.
witchiepoo
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
good evening to all...

"i'm sick and tired of crying and thinking and rethinking about this". i can relate to that statement...went back and forth with this emotional roller coaster for many many years. it really is a process...and i feel it is something we need to do. i have found that time helps somewhat as is with everything.

if they want a mother than they need to be a daughter or son...right? it takes two to have a relationship!

everyone's words here of inspiration keep me keepin' on.

smiles...raven
anniebal
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
Sarahsmom, I could see the exact same thing happening 'IF' we ever got back with our son. Perhaps start out saying we all accept everyone for who they are, no more apologies, etc. etc. but then....chop, chop, they cut us off. Somehow you commited some offense during those 5 visits with your son and his fiance? Please! These kids are looking, and I'm not sure it's our kids doing the looking. I do believe the my son who is 27 now, was duped into the relationship he currently has with us. I seriously think that this was her agenda, to break us apart so that there could be no one but her. I'm sure it happens with son in laws as well, it's not exclusively a female behavior. My son is accountable for allowing her to do this to his family, and him. What kind of person did we raise that could be so easily told what to do?

Laurene, you stated:

"My daughter took and took support, love and whatever else she sought, over and over again. I thought i was being a good mother but I enabled her to treat me this way (estranged)-- Because i love her unconditionally. I'm serious about what I have to say..I'm sick and tired of crying and thinking and rethinking about this."

I feel the same about my son. We gave and gave and would still be giving if he'd allow us in his life. I agree that I enabled my son to treat me like this. It's like we were there to much, that we weren't appreciated because we were around. I should've been the absent mom since then my son would most likely have me in his life.

Laurene, I'm sick and tired of it too. When I started having communication with my son this past May I was guardedly hopeful that we could have some type of relationship. But soon it became apparent that the only relationship he wanted was to see us at family get togethers, and talk on the phone. I'm not kidding. He and his wife had this wonderful trip planned this June and I realized that I didn't know how we would contact him in an emergency. I had already talked to him on the phone so I didn't want to call, so I just zipped him an email. I asked him if he could give me their itinerary in the rare chance there was the type of emergency that we would need to call him. I did this on a Sunday night around 10pm and come Monday at 11am I still had not heard from him. I started imagining the he was having a difficult time with this request, that he or my dil didn't want us to have that information for some crazy reason. That afternoon around 2pm I wrote him another email stating that he need not give me the information as long as someone we know has it. Within 10 minutes I heard back from him via email telling me that his in laws had their itinerary and 'thanks for understanding.' Now, I don't know about you, but I knew exactly what that meant and still do. He couldn't tell us. Either he didn't trust us, or he was struggling with how to get permission from his wife to let us know the information. It obviously was causing some dilemma for him simply based on the fact that he never responded. Chances are if I never wrote him back telling him that I didn't need the information I wouldn't have heard a peep back from him. It would have been another one of his cowardly ways in dealing with us.

witchipoo, you stated:

"if they want a mother than they need to be a daughter or son...right? it takes two to have a relationship!"

SOooo true!! When did it become a one way street? It takes two to tango, and if we're the only one dancing it won't look very pretty. I just don't get that we need to chase him or them. I am so afraid of this happening with my younger son now. I feel like I'm there for him way too much, and though he is a much different temperment than his brother, it is scary.

Does anyone else have this fear with their other child (children?)

anniebal
kats_2007
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
Imaginny thank you. I have as others here, experienced such a massive change in attitude from my daughter, that it left me; doubting my own sanity. To believe we are very close to someone and they love us and to trust in that, then have that proven to be untrue, is devastating.

I did at times feel suicidal, I truly felt my trust and heart was broken. I felt I didn't believe in anything anymore. I always believed that if my back was to the wall and I could count on nobody else in the world, I could count on my daughter.

I was going through a whole lot of major life stresses at once: My daughter leaving home and moving thousands of miles away to marry a man I didn't know. Approaching senior citizen stage of life and the psychological mountains to climb with that. Moving to another country with no friends, no family, no job, no home and no major assets for my old age.

I am optimistic, I am a survivor, and knew I would survive, but I did experience fear and loneliness.

I did not expect my daughter to be responsible for me, just to be there if my back was to the wall for a time. I expected to be welcomed into her new life.
I wasn't. I was pushed out from the start and viewed as a burden.

Don't get me wrong, she did try to demonstrate love and care, with grand plans that would most certainly have made my life better and bought us closer together geographically.

But they were unrealistic plans and I did not want her to commit to such a big responsibility, I knew it would cause problems in her marriage.

It did, but I was viewed as a problem by her husband, because she made those plans despite my protests. this in turn led to undercurrent and hostilities with her husband, which in turn led to problem between them and now, she sees me as the problem too. I suspect that his family also see me as a problem.

It's a catch 22. I can't win whichever way I go.
I have told her, I do not want my airfares paid anymore if I go to visit, because I know it is resented and I am seen as draining their mutual assets.

That I will stay in a hotel, because staying with them causes tension and arugments. But that I will not be able to do this every year, because I have to save for when I can no longer work, due to my lack of assets and given that I am 61 who knows how much longer I'll be working full time.

My daughter ignores this and insists on paying my fare and have me staying with her. I know it will only cause more problems, on top of so many problems that we have reached a stage of almost total estrangement.

To add to all of this, they both involve me in their marital problems, some of them significant, causing me so much worry and stress that at times I have felt that I am so close to breaking point that I cannot take one more accusatory telephone conversation or one more situation where I am treated like a tolerated outsider in her life, who is causing problems.

My daughter has treated me with such lack of consideration at a time when I most needed it and accused me of such awful things, that I feel I have to protect myself by cutting her out of my life.

I love her dearly, and would do anything for her, but I do not trust her anymore and cannot afford to lose any more time from work due to depression. I feel that one more hostile interaction with her will push me over the edge. I am alone. I need to find a home. I need to keep my job and I need to save for the time when I cannot work anymore and the way things are going, I hold no hope that if I found myself seriously ill or living on the bread line, that I would be seen as anything other than an even bigger problem, causing her even more stress. For my survial I have to cut her out and leave her to get on with her life, without feeling torn between her husband and me.

Thank you for creating this post. I have tried to get some support on the net before and often found that people answer with callous answers, without knowing the intricate details or that they are making our pain more difficult. They do not realise that when we are so vulnerable, that their callousness could potentially push us over the edge. Neither do they realise that one day, they will likely find themselves in the same position, as the world we live in is now geared away from family bonds.

I wish you all the best of luck and advise you, not to allow youself to be destroyed by your children's hostility. You have done your parenting, you have given and loved, now it's time to do that for yourself.
anniebal
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
Kats, thanks so much for sharing your very painful story. I relate to the other sites you visited being less than supportive. I feel that many people not in this position find it all to easy to find the answers, many times blaming us. We as parents it seems have the sole responsibility for making things work with our kids, even when they won't allow us to.

As you stated we are lacking a true bond to the family now, as in parents to their young adult kids. It is obviously becoming more talked about since I read more and more cases at several sites.

We gave too much to our kids. We made them beyond the center of the universe as if nothing else mattered, not even our own lives. Our kids lack a true appreciation for us as their parents, and with that lack of appreciation comes lack of respect (or none!)

I read how hurt you sound in thinking you could trust your daughter and the love you shared. Just where does it go and will it ever come back, or will we be dead and gone before it does?

I wish you the best of luck in your future. You sound very determined, and have wisened up to the fact that at some point we have to draw the line or we will be pushed to the breaking point.

anniebal
connierose_2000
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
Hi All,
Well, I guess I am now a member of this club. Just a short history: I divorced when my daughter was 4, raised her on my own (no $$$). She is now a successful doctor in the Pasadena area. She is married with 1 child. I thought we had a very close relationship. However, it quickly changed once she married and moved to CA. Her husband has made it very clear that he wants nothing to do with family (his too) and both sides of the family have been told that we are not to talk to one another. His Mom has also been divorced for many years and she has always done as he has requested. My daughter is going along with all of this.

Anyway, I've not seen my daughter in over a year this includes my only grandchild as well. I'm really at a loss as what to do. Like many of you I keep trying to open the door, talking, crying etc. to no avial. I feel so hopeless and unloved by her. I've gone to two extremes from having no contact to contacting her trying to get some reaction. I'm truly lost.....

Does anyone know of a support group in Michigan? Thanks!
anniebal
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
Connie, I'm sorry to hear about your situation...truly. I don't know what comes over our kids that would convince them this was the right thing to do. How do they come to peace with this?

Do you still talk to your daughter? Does she let you talk to your granddaughter? How old is the GD?

I wish they had support groups for this thing in every state! They do have one in Texas and one other state that I know of. Anyone can start a support group, though I imagine that it's a big undertaking.

How close in proximity are you to your daughter?

anniebal
straycat_wandering
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
It has been a wonderful support for me to know I'm not out there by myself, but at the same time it makes me so sad to see so many mothers who were obviously great loving mothers treated this way by their children.
You are all so very right about the depth of this pain. I really don't think anyone can imagine how much we hurt unless they have loved their children like we have loved (and love) ours.
I've had people tell me that my children will "come around. Not only is there no progress toward reconciliation but, (as bad as this sounds) I am not sure I can let them back into my life and still remain sane. I know the ropes will just be tighter and I'd be walking on broken glass-trying to please them and I don't think I can live through this pain again.
It's like they became total strangers, their lack of love, compassion all astonish me-where did these people come from. What happened to the sweet, kind and loving children I raised?
We as mother's should be able to relax knowing our children love us and treat us with respect.
Once again; I appreciate you all.
sarahsmom
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
Straycat..

This is exactly what I want to communicate in this documentary.. as I mentioned on another thread.. many of us have the same voice same stories same thoughts.. I think we have to band together and express ourselves.. what will our society be like in the future if this is an acceptable practice. You know that by treating us the way they do, they are showing their children that this is an appropriate behavior. I have been talking to Mark Sichel about this and he has agreed to be part of my video as well as an advisor.. he said

"I have a great deal of information on this now for my second book which I may finish writing some day, but it's all about the success of relationships having to do with virtue & character.
People need a higher purpose (like the correctness of family relationships) and a commitment to courage, humility, correctness....or the result is disastrous. Unfortunately the psychopathic narcissistic behavior is encouraged in our world by commercialism, corporate greed, etc"

I think he is right on and at the same time.. I feel sadly as you do.. I could not let them in my life.. I could not trust them ever again... they are total strangers..

big big hugs..
anniebal
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
Sarahsmom, are you estranged from more than one child? I'm sorry If I'm forgetting your story. Is your son the one who convinced his younger brother not to trust you? The dil who was spying on your email?

Straycat and Sarahsmom, as miserable as I am I also don't know if I could take him back after all the hurt and pain he has caused. I could only do that if he changed, and I certainly don't see that happening. I won't walk on egg shells again, or grovel/beg...that's over.

Either he can accept me and love me for who I am, or we won't have a relationship.

The pain is so deep that I sometmies wonder if I'll survive this and be truly happy again.

Our kids are indeed strangers now.

anniebal
sarahsmom
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
Yes... that's me.. DIL and older son in my email, found something I wrote and took younger brother with them..
it's all really silly.. i shouldn't have written what I did, but I wasn't writing to them.. seems like the focus became what I said rather than how they found out..
I have apologized to both but they have said they weren't sure they could accept my apology and as far as they were concerned they have done "nothing" wrong and would never apologize.
I have tried to move on....
imaginny
Original Author
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
sarahsmom,

Often the estrangements begin over something that seems silly. Something that when you look at it and weigh the two: perpetual estrangement and the "thing that happened", the former outweighs the latter by a huge margin. From that point on, everything changes and it becomes a completely no win situation. No matter how much you were apparently loved before. It doesn't matter. You become like dirt beneath their feet. An object of scorn.

There aren't words to describe how astonishing and painful this is to parents who have had this happen. As a parent no one expects this to be the result of having been a loving parent. It is the opposite of what any reasonable person would expect to have happen.

Ginny
imaginny
Original Author
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
This will be the 150th post in the thread which is usually the last post in the thread as the threads are limited to 150 posts. (But sometimes a 151st post sneaks in.)

So that everyone can find it easily, I have gone ahead and set up the continuing thread as I stated would be done in the first post.

I hope that one day there will be stories of resolutions and reconciliations too. Or if that is not to be for some of us, then stories of mothers who are surviving and thriving despite being estranged by their children.
Ginny

Here is a link that might be useful: Estrangements: The Website
Calisunshine01_msn_com
15 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
Hello,
There truly should be more helpful sites like this one. I was sitting here looking for poems of encouragement for my Mother who has cancer and it is not the type of cancer that can be cured. I dont know how, but I ended up on this site. I too have two daughters that are not speaking to me.
My eldest is almost 28 yrs old and my youngest daughter is going to be 26 yrs old in Oct.
It is difficult to explain all the has happen but I do very much need someone to talk to concerning this and many difficult things that are going on at the moment in my life.
Anyone that wishes to contact me can do so ( from this site ) by emailing me at my email address which is.........Calisunshine01@msn.com
If you do decide to email me I ask that in the SUBJECT line of your email that you write the words...
LIFE......right now!
Thank you one and all. Have a wonderful day, or night depending on where you are.
Take care all.......
Kim

For mothers who are estranged from their adult child

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