For mothers who are estranged from their adult child

imaginny

This is the thread for mothers who are in pain over conflict or estrangement with their adult children. If you are new to Gardenweb, please share your story in this thread. If you have been sharing your story of conflict and estrangement from your child on the threads of Gardenweb, please continue to talk about your experience in this thread so that the discussion can be consolidated in one place. If the discussion can be in one thread, it will make it easier to find everyone's stories on this topic.

When the thread reaches its maximum of 150 posts, a new thread will be started to continue the discussion.

For those who think that it is their place to come here and judge, criticize, and advise the mothers who post on this thread, if you haven't walked in their shoes yourself, do not assume that you know anything about their experience and that you have a clue what it is like to be estranged from your child. If you feel compelled to criticize, offer advise, and disparage the mothers who post in this thread, please begin another thread for you to do that in. You might label it something like, "What is wrong with you and what I think that you should do." Although that is a lengthy label. Perhaps you could call it, "My take on your life." That would cover it.

I am setting up separate threads because of the conflicts that have occurred in recent months in the threads on family estrangements.

A thread is also being set up for daughters, daughter-in-laws, and others who are upset with a mother or mother-in-law. That is certainly a common issue for many women. I have had plenty of experience in being on the daughter side of the situation myself.

As for myself, I don't intend to write about my own experience except where it might help someone else with theirs. I have been estranged for many years from some of my relatives. I have felt the pain. I do know what it is like. Enough time has gone by that I do not feel the pain that I once felt although there is always that sense of loss, the wish that everything could be fixed and that harmony could reign.

In 2001 I set up a website and a blog on the subject of family estrangements that I link to from time to time. There you will find information on the subject, some of which might be helpful in your situation.

Ginny

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magoo_2006

Im not sure that this is the right place to post about this. I am estranged from my grown son but this was my decision. He was abusive and I was scared of him. What really caused me to force him to leave was the way he was acting toward my other children. I couldn't stand the way he was treating them. I just couldnt handle it any longer. If it was up to him, he would still be here abusing all of us.

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imaginny

Hello magoo,

You have found the right place to post.

Ginny

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sniffles07

Hi all, As some of you know, we were estranged from our adult daughter for 3 years, with a reunion of 5 or so yrs. Then sil got mad & there was another estrangment for a few months. He is still estranged but dd visits occasionally and calls weekly. We do get to see that grandkids. I would not, however, say things are 'good'. SIL puts pressure on dd, he does not like the fact that she is not estranged from us. He does not like it that the grandkids come visit. In fact, he has tried to make them feel guilty but it has only worked on 1 grandkid. (isn't that terrible)
Although dd does visit, she is 'moody' towards us. I know it is because of things that sil has said/did. Awhile back I thought about asking her to lunch, and hashing things out with her. To get us on an even keel, but not sure if this is a good idea? I've read a few posts in here where the mother 'estranged' herself on purpose from the child. I have to admit, I think about it occasionally. That is something I NEVER thought I'd say about my daughter. I love her a lot, but this song and dance has went on since she got married over 10 yrs ago. I'm just sick of it. It's so immature and ridiculous, but it's so hard on the grandkids. I often wonder if the grandkids would just be better off without the added pressure of their father 'putting the heat on them' so to speak because they love us. Thanks for listening...just had to vent.

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bloobird

Sniffles,
As long as you have a choice, I would say don't cut yourself out of your grandchildren's lives no matter how awful their parents act.

They need you. They need to see that there is an adult in their life who is willing to love them just for themself, and isn't going to use them as leverage against any other relationship. They need to see someone who is willing to forget about sulky, immature behaviour on the part of other adults and just enjoy their time together. Yes, their father can make it hard for them - now. But as they mature, it won't be long before his influence in their lives will wane. Parents are the boss only for a little while.

Years from now, long after you're gone, when your grandchildren are talking with their own grandchildren, do you want them to look back and say "I didn't know my Grandma and Grandpa. They laid down the law to my parents and that was that and we never saw them." Or do you want them to say "I loved my Grandma and Grandpa. They were two of the best people I've ever known."

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sniffles07

bloobird, Thanks! I know you're right. I just have to vent because at times I get fed up and so frustrated. If I didn't vent, I might explode. :) I wouldn't do anything to hurt the grandchildren's feelings for anything in the world. And they WOULD be hurt if I did let her have it. I think my daughter just doesn't know how to handle the situation and feels pulled in different directions. We ask nothing of her, except to see the grandkids. Awhile back she did come up here and vent about her in laws. That's the first time we have ever heard her do that in 10 yrs of marriage. We feel there's hope. Thanks for the advice.

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witchiepoo

i am feeling somewhat of a relief to have found this website today. i did just post a follow-up but don't see it here yet. i have felt alone and disconnected for almost 19 yrs now because of being estranged from my older kids. friends and others out in the world do not have my circumstances with their children. i would like to connect with others who have similar situations. i will see if this posts them come back to share a little of my self. thanks for being here....

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bloobird

"I just have to vent because at times I get fed up and so frustrated."

I understand. Sometimes, when it all seems like a never ending uphill battle, it's good to be reminded just how important one person can really be. ;^)

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ifiknewthen

I'm interested in the thread about being a wife/DIL upset with DH's parents. My DH is estranged from his parents and although I have somewhat of an idea as to why, I have a hard time understanding it and DH's feelings of hate towards them. My DH is very adamant that he will never reconcile with his parents.

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witchiepoo

"having even just one person understand" can make a difference in your day or life.

i have been estranged from my 2 oldest children now for approximately 19 years, on and off, but mostly off. the 2 of them do not see each other. as the years have passed by i have worked through my feelings as best i can. the loss has been great. the loss of family and especially your own children has been like a death to me that others in my life cannot really understand. i have gone through this alone. others talk of their grown children and grand-children but i do not connect in those conversations ONLY wish i had that. some holidays are harder than others. it is something i do not talk about much or have talked about much with others. however, it has been painful. i felt like a loner. a good friend suggested i find others who have experienced this kind of loss for support and connection purposes. this reminds me of another situation in my life. my mother passed away when i was 17 yrs old...but back then no one ever talked about such a thing ....there wasn't even a book out on the subject. of course now there are several and one i have re-read several times.

still i am filled with gratitude for my life and friends. coming here has not been an accident but a very much needed place for me to connect with others.

smiles....raven

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magoo_2006

Have any of you been abused by a grown son and decided enough was enough and it was YOUR decision to put a distance between you?
Apparantly there is not a lot of situations like mine. People dont normally up and move to get away from a grown son that has been abusing them for years.

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jstgvup

I was amazed to read all the posts on this subject last night and to realize that I am NOT alone in my grief over the loss of my relationship with my children. Yesterday, after another incident with my youngest daughter (which I won't go into the details right now), I truly felt like I had had enough of being a mother. But where do you go to resign? If God has truly only loaned us our children, yesterday I surrendered them to Him! I have spent the better part of my life being a single-mom; though married for part of that time,I was still a single-mom. I feel that I did the best that I could do with what I had at the time and am sick of beating myself up for what I coulda, shoulda, woulda done. As sad as it is to realize that other parents struggle with this ongoing grief, it has made me feel less alone in this as I've read many of the posts. Thank you for sharing.

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witchiepoo

"I have spent the better part of my life being a single-mom...I feel that i did the best that i could do with what i had at the time..."

jstgvup...well it's like i would have written this myself. i was a single mom for 17 years and also did the best i knew how to at the time. it has now been 19 yrs of estrangement and it has been a long road. i have not and will not ever get over this but have found a way through it...it really has been a process. i cycle with the loss...and the holidays are usually the hardest for me. when others have their family....i do not.

please keep sharing. we can come here to vent and share our pain and/or empty spaces when we are hurting and the feelings are overwhelming and know we are not alone.

raven....

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stargazzer

witchiepoo, there a lot of women who are lonely and depressed on the holidays, get some of them together and celebrate with them. there are 3 of us in my neighbor hood that are alone and one of the other two have a small dinner. Not the usual Christmas dinner, maybe chili, etc.. We enjoy the day even without family.

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jstgvup

It's late and couldn't sleep...maybe I am making too much out of this latest incident with my daughter but it really upset me and I just am not sure how I should handle it. She had asked me if I wanted to go with her to take one of my grandchildren to the orientation at the college she'll be attending this Fall and I was thrilled that she wanted me to go with her as we have had a strained relationship for many years. When it came to the day of the trip, I had called her several times to find out when she wanted to leave and never received an answer, so stopped by her house to ask her that day. There was some question as to who would be going on this trip as her eldest daughter decided at the last minute that she wanted to go and consequently there wouldn't be enough room in her car for all of us. I told my daughter that I would not go if that would make things easier on her; she was having a dispute with this daughter regarding changing her mind at the last minute. As it turned out,it was decided that I would go this time and my other granddaughter would go the next time. I left to return home to get ready; my daughter said we needed to leave within the hour in order to arrive on time, as the college is a couple hours drive. I waited for forty-five minutes outside my apartment complex as she was going to be picking me up. She never showed up and did not respond to several attempts to reach her by phone during that time. Finally, when I gave up waiting for her , I went into my apartment to call her from my land-phone and noticed I had a message on my voice-mail. It was my daughter. She said that her oldest daughter would be going this time after all because she didn't usually choose to participate in family activities and didn't get to spend time with her sister often.(??) I was devastated, needless to say. I felt that she could've told me before I rushed around getting ready,and had waited outside for almost an hour! She called tonight while I was at work to apologize for how things turned out.(???) I can and will forgive her but at this time I am just not ready to talk with her. This recent incident is the last straw for me in a long line of her past treatment of me. I just can't take anymore! Attempts I have made in the past to talk about the issues she has with me and her childhood have ended up with her not speaking to me for years and not allowing my grandchildren any contact with me. I had hoped things were changing between us but now I just don't trust my heart with her. I know I need to move on and forgive her but it will take time to do that. Meanwhile, time rushes on and things happen...and before you know it ..it's too late for apologies, amends or whatever. My family doesn't understand and at times I feel judged by them...silently. Tonight on the phone my sister made excuses for my daughter's behavior saying that she probably just didn't realize how this incident would affect me!!! I just don't buy it! I am angry and heartbroken...

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witchiepoo

stargazer...."there r a lot of women who are lonely at the holidays"....

thanks for the suggestion. i have several friends and am married. for various reasons....i have not yet found others to connect with on an actual holiday. on thanksgiving i am always "santa" for an annual thanksgiving dinner where we feed over 200 families. i always enjoy that. afterwards it would be nice...but in time perhaps i will find the kind of get together i would enjoy.

smiles...raven

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witchiepoo

jstgvup...

just finished reading your post. i am glad u posted and understand how you feel. it really is a process this whole relationship thing. it is something we never really get over. we work through stuff and reach different realizations as we go and work through it. in my opinion...it sounds like you were considerate of your daughter and her feelings in that situation but it was not returned and so you felt angry and frustrated. behind anger you and hurt and heartbroken. i know for me it took a long while to stop putting myself in those situations and sometimes i said i wasn't going to but did again. listen to your heart...and put the focus back on you...you are worth it.

smiles...raven

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merry_heart

Hi, I want to know what you all think of this. I found this group because I feel I am soon to be estranged from my 22-year-old daughter, the way things are going. The relationship has been strained for 4 years. Knowing this, I always "walk on eggshells" around her & I guess I behave like a doormat--that's what my other kids say. She recently lost her job (lives on her own)& got mad at me because I didn't agree with my husband about the amount of money we would be giving her (I didn't want to give her the amount he suggested because I felt she wasn't trying hard enough to get another job, but I couldn't tell her that was my reason, because she'd get mad at me) She wasn't supposed to find out that my husband & I didn't agree,it was an accident. Anyway, she stormed off, out of my house, refusing to speak to me, all emotional, saying she couldn't believe my attitude (I'd been helping her buy groceries the past few weeks, giving her stuff, being supportive on the phone, etc) then sent me an ugly text msg saying sarcastically about how I don't "give a crap" about her, etc. The next day I texted her back, saying if she wanted any help from us she needed to apologize & be respectful. She said she didn't want my help & how I always have to make threats (I didn't make a threat, she meant that I make conditions, the condition being, that she must be respectful) She also said she was tired of her feelings being hurt by me. I know she will not contact me, because she is so mad, especially because this involves loss of a job & money. If I contact her, I would feel like I was crawling back to her, being a doormat.
Should I do that in order to avoid estrangement? Or is the relationship not worth it anyway since she doesn't respect me? I need some clarification. Is it the way I see it? Is she acting like a spoiled brat? Is she walking all over me, trying to make me feel guilty? or am I really guilty, am I being heartless, demanding respect?

(we have had incidents like these in the past, but it has been about 18 months since the last one, I think, because I have been trying so hard to get along with her, doing favors, etc.)what always happened in the past was, when I tried to talk about it, she NEVER apologizes, only repeats & repeats about how I hurt HER. She always uses the word HURT to describe her feelings, never admits she was angry or disrespectful, and definitely never apologizes. I would probably wait this one out, not speaking, but also I am worried about her, & fear that her money situation is going to get worse. I want to offer her to move back home, but I feel that would make her more angry--we are already so crowded. Plus, we have acted like we'd help her out. What should I do? Who is in the wrong here? How do you see it? thanks

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jlwow

Well Merry Heart, I read your post and it sounds very similar to the relationship that I have with my oldest daughter. She has 5 of my grandchildren, and she uses them and my heart as pawns to punish me when shes upset. This has been going on for along time now and I haven't spoke to her for more than 2 minutes in a year. I used to get hysterical and call her and she would hang up on me and I spent so many sleepless nights just trying to figure out what to do. She has said so many really mean things to me that I hope she doesnt get put in a position where she will be regretful soon because I have terminal cancer. You said your daughter was 22? this is the conclusion that I came to, it might help you too...I miss them, I worry some, but I did a good job raising her and if this is what she wants, then let it be, there is absolutely nothing you yourself can do when your daughter is like this! Take a deep breath and let it all play out as it may. Give her some time for thinking, maybe not call her, let her wonder,find something to keep your mind busy, and remember that you have the right to demand respect from her! But she has to earn your respect and if she just eeks in when she needs help then let her know that "your changing the way you do things" of course you love her and want to help her but sometimes "tough love""even with adult children is the only way to make things better. hope this helps.

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magoo_2006

Merry Heart, my son started out playing mind games with me and I always gave in. he was real good at making me feel guilty but I was a good mother and you sound like a good mother too. My sons arrogant and unrespectful behavior became physical. No, he never hit but I believe that he would. he did however loosen the lug nuts to my car and put syrup in my gas tank (2 different incidents). He has taken our little dog (who is the family pet that we had for 11 years) and dropped him off miles from the house. It took us days to get him back. He has stolen stuff and purposely punched the walls, threw things and broke things. He has tried to drive a wedge between me and my other younger sons still living at him. I have found things around the house that he has done that is just crazy like soda inside the remote controls and light bulbs taken out of the overhead light fixture above the carport. He has called me every foul name you can call another human being. He even went so far as telling me and his brothers that my mother, brothers & sister all had conspired behind my back and agreed that I was losing my mind and didnt want anymore to do with me. HE said that in front of my other 2 kids. Considering the fact that all my family live so far from each other and we only get together every few years & dont keep in touch inbetween, he thought he could get by with making up such a vicious lie. But I checked with all my family and they were shocked!! They each assured me that NOTHING like that ever happened. Things gotr very bad and he got very weird when I decided NO MORE and I havent seen him since. I truly believe that he would physically hurt us if I didnt do something about this. But it started out many years ago when he was a teenager and it was just WORDS then and esculated so be very careful.

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merry_heart

thanks, jlwow
I am sorry that your daughter treats you like that, even when you are terminally ill. You certainly don't deserve that kind of treatment. I always think that someday these adult children will understand, and will somehow know what they put us through. I believe that what you give out, comes back to you, so if they are cruel, rude, disrespectful, etc, it must come back to them. I am also estranged from my mother (she turned her back on me). I remember the anguish I went through because of how she acted; she would withhold love & things from me when I didn't do what she wanted (for example, if I didn't call enough, write enough) so I vowed I would never do this to my kids (I have 5).(She would give presents to the others, but purposely not to me, because I wasn't calling/writing enough--but I never was cutting her off) I went the other extreme, bending over backwards to make them feel loved, even if they disrespected me, and so, at least with this child, this is what I get--disrespect and her feeling of "entitlement".
For me it is a lot more painful, being a mom & having your kid cut you off, than the other way around. You are right, all you can do is make your own self happy, keep busy, get involved in other things. I volunteer at the hospital each week and I always come away from that feeling so good--the other volunteers are wonderful, compassionate people, and usually at least one patient is grateful to me for what I did--which means the world to me.

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merry_heart

magoo, thanks for your post
I read your other posts also--so you made him move out of your house,right?
That was an awful situation and you clearly had no other choice--I imagine the heartache you must feel, and the pain you are going through because of it.
It is so crazy--a family is supposed to be where you find love, safety, consolation, support - how do things get so messed up? When this stuff goes on with my daughter, I ask how, how, how, in the world did it turn out this way, when I gave so much, loved so much, tried so hard, agonized over each problem, was so careful, read so many parenting books, gave them so much, etc. I think with me maybe I did try too hard, and they thought it was "all about them", at least that's how this one daughter seems to be.

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witchiepoo

magoo & merryheart...

thanks for your posts. i think this is a process as is just about everything. the vision i had in my heart and head with my older children has in reality not happened. after many many years, episodes, drama, separation i have come to an acceptance that it probably is not going to in this lifetime. it took me awhile to get here though. as "stuff" happened during the years...my husband and youngest daughter would tell me to just stop. but being a mom i would TRY AGAIN. i do not regret trying. what matters most to me is that i know i did everything i could so that when my time comes i have no regrets and that is all i can do. i found it important for myself to find my own way with my way of trying with them even though my family said to stop. we all have to do what is right for us with what we know at the time and that is different for each one of us. and as mothers we have the tendancy to blame ourselves.

when my heart aches i let it ache and when i am in pain....i let myself hurt and it does pass for me.

i found for me too that i needed to talk about stuff as it came up but back then i didn't have anyone. i am tickled we have these postings and know we are here for each other. women need to talk. smiles....

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sirens

Merry_Heart, I don't feel this problem with your daughter is about money; I think she doesn't feel loved. She is telling you that, but you aren't listening.
And why are you discussing her with the others?
That seems odd to me.
It sounds like you are willing to exclude her from the family - like she's the black sheep and the scapegoat.

And you ask if continuing the relationship - with your daughter - is "worth it?"

No wonder she feels unloved. I feel sorry for her.

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merry_heart

sirens,
We have done an incredible amount for her, more than for the other kids. Did I say I discuss her with the other kids? No, they observe it, when she is in the house, nothing is good enough for her, the carpet is old, the sofa is uncomfortable, etc. The other kids get mad at me for putting up with it. They get mad at me for dropping everything when she comes over, just so she WON'T get mad.
I'm just trying to get up the courage to put my foot down and not allow the disrespect any longer. That's why I say -- is the relationship worth it? It's not a good relationship if it's ok for her to disrespect me. Is that what I am supposed to do, just overlook the insults, the rude comments, just so she will "feel loved"?
I do not think that is a healthy relationship, and it is teaching all my kids that it's ok to let people walk all over you.
Are you a parent? Do you have adult children that disrespect you, even though you've always bent over backwards to give them everything, overlook their insults, and be "nice" all the time?

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fuzzywuzzy

Your personal issues are showing again, sirens.

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sirens

Merry_Heart, you posted about the problem with you daughter and asked for opinions; yet you seem to only want to hear from people who will "blame" your daughter.

I find it curious that it doesn't matter to you, that your daughter apparently doesn't feel loved by you.

That would bother me...

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merry_heart

Sirens,
according to you, it doesn't matter to me that my daughter feels unloved.
Uh, she is going to "feel unloved" no matter what I do;
Did I say it doesn't matter to me?
That is your opinion. And, in case you didn't know, that is a huge insult (saying that my daughter's feelings don't matter to me), to any mother--a good mother, that is. Because a "bad mother" probably wouldn't care.
And why are you passing judgement on me?
I think you need to read the 3rd paragraph of the 1st post on this thread which contains the guidelines.
As fuzzywuzzy said, your issues are showing.

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merry_heart

And by the way, Sirens,
I thought this forum was for people to offer support to mothers whose hearts ache because they have given every thing for a child who has nothing to offer but a slap in the face.
You are not being supportive.
So, tell us, what is your story?

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magoo_2006

Merry Heart, I went through a lot of counseling (family and individual)(plus I have taken a lot of psychology classes myself the past few years) and heartache before I ever got to this point. It still hurts but I do not dwell on it all the time, in fact I can be happy and even relieved. That does not make me a bad person because I know that through the years I have done everything that I could. But, Life is just too precious and too short plus I do have other kids. We all deserve to be happy and if another person makes your lives miserable (no matter who it is), that person has to go. One really valuable lesson that I learned through all this is that you can't sacrifice one child for another. In my case, my other two kids for him. Don't you dare beat yourself up for wanting to bring peace to your life, you are only human and can only put up with so much. It sounds like you have been through a lot of verbal and emotional abuse (and, yes, it is abuse) and you are not helping anyone by enabling your daughter's bad behavior. And, believe me, I dont tend to criticize, not at all. I was where you are now and did the same thing for years and years but YES, eventually I kicked his butt out. Do I feel guilty? NO WAY! No person deserves to be treated the way I was being treated and especially after all the love, care nd attention that I have given him since he was born. But what really clinched it for me was the way he was treating his brothers (my other 2 kids), otherwise I would have probably taken the abuse for the rest of my life.
You hang in there Merry Heart. Take a stand for yourself and your other kids. Not everything is about "her" and you will have to let her know that in one way or another. Hugs to you, I know only too well what you are going through. it is hard to make that final step and stick with it but you can do it.

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jlwow

Well Merry Heart..As you can see there are many women on here that care about others. Sometimes the pain of estrangement or even having to consider it for the best is like grieving a death..it's excruiating pain! This website and the people are a blessing. At least you can vent your feelings and get some answers to think about and consider and of course you know now, that your not alone. I didn't get the choice to give or take the situation with my daughter, she just opted out when I got sick, and won't even acknowledge me. But I finally found a place in my heart to keep her and I still have to really work at keeping my courage up not to "play the game with her" call her, she hangs up, I cry on and on. I just stopped doing this because
I needed peace of mind for my other younger daughter. Even she has learned from the best how to play this when she gets mad or things don't go her way..but she won't take it as far as my oldest who is absolutely the most bullheaded girl I've ever known. But your on the right track Merry Heart, just put your big shoulders on and recognize your worth as a Mom, you will perhaps find that she grows up real quick, when the game stops and your not playing anymore. I'm so glad that you came to this website and that everyone is trying to help you..so keep typing and keep us informed, we'll be here for ya. Janet

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jlwow

Well wouldn't ya know it just when you thought things were getting better..something else happens and your back to square one again! Maybe one of you can read this and give me an objective opinion, I'm so emotionally involved that I feel like I am in the middle of a crisis.
I guess you might have read about me and my 2 adult children, they have chosen to be estranged from me, I assumed it was because I have health problems and they didn't want to deal with it. My youngest is 300 miles away with her dad for the time being because I have cancer and he
waited until I went to the hospital for a month and gained custody of her she is now 17. I call her every week and send her stuff, weve always been close, so I want her to feel and know that I love her. Everything was pretty good up until a few weeks ago, except now that Im thinking about everything there was a little voice inside me that told me something was not right with the situation(kinda like on the pinnochio movie..you remember what jiminy cricket said about" always let your conscience be your guide"? (smiling). Yea, that's what it was and now Im kicking myself for not listening to the clues. I tried again tonight to talk to my youngest daughter and of course I got the voicemail again, this is about the 10th time, obviously she's not gonna talk to me.
I really got upset, depressed and full of anxiety, but something dawned on me like a big rock just came down and hit me on the head. Im overwhelmed and need to put this all down in writing in order to clear my head for a while. So thanks for being my pounding board ..I live alone so anxiety can really get the best of me when something goes wrong.
I figured it out!! I think I did. I think my children's father is at the bottom of all this problem. He was physically and emotionally abusive to me for 20 yrs, and still gets verbally abusive but I just hang up on him and stay away. The last time I spoke with my daughter she was rude to me and I told her that I felt disrespected by her and I wanted her to stop with that attitude, her dad got on the phone and was billegerant as usual and I hung up. But I realized that he may be manipulating my daughter emotionally, thats why she is acting like this. And he probably has done this emotional thing to my other kids too!I am almost positive that he is driving a wedge between me and my youngest daughter cause he doesn't want her to come home she's almost of age now. It all fits in with the circle of abuse, and she is still too young to even realize that he's gotten into her head. It's seems like he's pitting against me to keep control of her, if that makes any sense?
The thing is I am extremly worried about her! My older kids are involved in this abuse cycle too, but she is in an actual situation where he could really destroy her logic. Iam just wondering how to deal with it? Should I call the friend of the court and tell them..they might think Im crazy. Its so confusing because she tells me that she likes it there, her school, and friends and she works this summer,
but he's undermining her relationship with me. I could call Protective services and tell them to check it out? But then the consequences might be awful because Im really in a situation where she could live with me but my health is bad and terminal cancer? How could I do the best thing for her?
so you see Im not trying to dig this all up just to get her home..not at all, I want what's best for HER! But if she got taken away from her father, which could very well happen, then what would happen to her, Im afraid to call them. But I need to do something, can anyone help me with this please, she is a beautiful girl and I raised her for 16yrs by myself she is self reliant,dependable and doesn't get in trouble(cept she's boy crazy) I worked hard at raising her and teaching her about life and all the values and morals of life, and he might just suck the life right out of her or he already is I should say, to be the person he wants her to be, someone who hates her mama. Oh, this is awful. what can I do, I feel like I could just have a heart attack, the pain is unbearable in my heart right now. thanx for reading though I love you all Janet

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merry_heart

jlwow,
so sorry this is all happening to you.
About what you should do, my first impression is that since your 17-year-old is living with her father & has expressed that she likes it there (school, job, etc) she would be pretty angry if you interfered. But I do understand that you want the best for her & don't want him to erase all that you've done. If you had her for 16 years, then even if she does forget for the time being the values that you instilled, I'm sure they are still there. She' probably acting crazy now because of her hormones and all that's going on in a teenager's life, I don't think she has really, deep down, turned her back on you or your values.
I think all you can do in a situation like this is make it crystal clear to her that you love her and are there for her if there is anything she needs, then wait till she comes to you.
Unfortunately she & the other kids may even interpret your attempts to reach out as selfish on your part, if you keep trying even after they've shut you out & rejected you. (I certainly hope they don't) Of course, as a mother, I know you are trying to help them & you want them to have a mother who cares, but they may not see it this way because they are so wrapped up in what's going on in their young lives. They honestly may not be able to handle your illness--that is very sad, but could be the truth. Something else I thought of is that if they grew up in a home where your husband was abusive to you, then all this abuse probably affected them in such a way that they cannot react as emotionally healthy, compassionate human beings right now.
When I have been distraught over my kids' actions, words, their problems, etc. I think the thing that would've helped me the most in each instance was counseling. Is there any way you can get counseling? Unfortunately it is not always possible, it can be so expensive, plus it can be difficult to find one that is right for you. I remember when my son attempted suicide, a friend (whom I actually had just met, not a long-time friend) offered me the best thing anyone ever offered when I was going through this--she listened attentively and with genuine compassion & tears in her eyes--said, "I'm sorry you're having to go through this". Somehow this woman genuinely cared & was able to communicate that to me--it meant a lot to me & somehow lifted the burden for a while. I'd spoken to other friends about my situation, but somehow the interaction with her was different. Others had seemed judgemental, maybe, and she was not.
Also, when I've had problems with kids, family members, etc, sometimes I try to find anger inside, instead of the grief, sorrow, despair. If I can find a place of anger, it seems to help me to relieve the anxiety and to start doing something positive for myself. I remember I aaked a counselor about that many many years ago, if it was ok to encourage the anger, just to get myself to direct my energies somewhere else and he said, certainly that was ok, whatever it took to start doing things for me & start taking action on my part, getting out of the pit of despair.
So, Janet, if you can just know in your heart you've done everything you can to reach out to them & they know you are there for them, can you begin to do things for you?
I may be wrong about what you should do (not contacting child protection services) , but that was my first impression.
Anyway, I hope that our words & suggestions here can somehow encourage you, keep posting.

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jlwow

Dear Merry Heart..I wish you lived close by, we sure could sit down with some coffee and really have a great conversation, I feel like Ive known you for quite awhile already, I guess because I can tell you speak with your heart and it is so compforting to me to actually have someone that can listen or read my issues and try to understand, I have spoke with a few friends about all this and they look at me like Im crazy. Alot of friends that I thought would be there for me are long gone as is my family. Merry Heart..I am simply ALONE in this world,although god is with me, there is absolutely no one at all in my life now,,I dont want anyone to feel sorry for me..just need some compassion. I took your advice and made an appt for counseling on August 1st. I can't wait! Yes I do get angry, Its just hard to vent it out..I'm not really mad at my kids just hurt and dissapointed. I am extremely mad at their father because I realized that he is at the bottom of all this. He's playing mind games and it's so dangerous because my 17yr old is at that really vulnerable stage where she needs her parents to be stable for her security. Of course I am ill, but I truly believe that he is trying to drive a wedge between us for his own selfishness. But the counseling will help alot to get me on the right track again. Thank you sooo much and I hope that things are looking up for you and your daughter. Doesn't it just seem like if you could just get your adult children to really know that you love them more than anything else, no matter what, sometimes I think that they just think their moms made out of rock, and she can bounce back no matter how hard the fall is? They take us for granted is what Im trying to say, and then one day comes and the parent passes away and it changes everything, I lost my mom 8 yrs ago, but I know that when I was younger this is how I felt. Now I just wish I had her with me, I need her and its a big wake-up call for everyone. I appreciate your concern and encouragement.

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catland

I am so glad I found this website. To know that others out there are having the same problems with their children is a help to me.

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penbyrd

FYI- It you want to take any action, it is critical that you do it before your daughter is 18. Once they are 18, even if your daughter is under your ex's spell, there is nothing you can do. Once she is 18 if your try to contact her in person she can get a restraining order against you, she can call the police--they will not arrest you--but will tell you to leave--if she is an adult and doesn't want to see you--you are tresspassing.

I don't mean to sound harsh---but I so wish I had taken action before my son was 18 and at least had a chance to sit down in person and talk to him rationally. I didn't and now regret it as he refuses to see me or have any contact and now I feel he will never know the truth. He will soon be 26, but the brainwashing started when he was young enough to listen. I saw the signs, but instead of sitting down and rationally discussing things, I ignored the signs and now fear the damage is done and there is nothing I can do.

Counseling has not helped me as the majority of counselors seem to in essense--tell you to get on with your own life. Although I know this is true, I haven't figured out how to do that as I feel so much pain that I have lost my son perhaps forever due to a controlling person's brainwashing.

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jlwow

Thanks penbyrd for your input. I read it twice and your right about that, I just am caught between a rock and a hard place now. Even though I know he is brainwashing my daughter, and it's haunting me 24hrs a day. But they are 300 miles away from me, and I haven't been able to see her for over a year. Reason being is that I am on oxygen and disabled, not healthy enough to travel where she is. Even if I could he would raise so much hek that I know it would be relentless to try. She was going to come here for a few weeks this summer and she called from a friends phone and told me that her dad said if she comes here he will "disown" her. She was so distraught and confused. Of course, I told her that I dont think he would do that, he's just afraid of you coming here and not wanting to go back. Well, she got a summer job and I'm not putting any pressure on her to get here. I think posssibly she is being pressured to much already. So, I don't really know what kind of action to take, As I said before she is coping an attitude when I call and no one is even answering now if I call. So, I'm left hanging. I am going to counseling on Monday because I am in a deep depression over this. But, I have made up my mind not to call her until I feel more secure about what to do. She was really rude with me when I ask her where her new job was at..she said she was not allowed to say, so I hesitated and said well that's kinda wierd and she said " actually it's none of your business"! I told her that I did not like her attitude at all, and next thing I know her dad was on the phone defending her..ahh! So I hung up, and I'm not going to get into that situation again. It's so strange because I am not the least bit superstious, but I happened upon a pop up on the web with my horoscope..it said "your trying to live in the past" get on with your life. Geez, I didn't need to see that. She is my life and I'm not giving up on her, I just don't have the emotional stability to struggle, I'm already fighting for my llfe with terminal cancer and many other serious health problems, if I lose her then I have nothing to live for, I certainly don't want to die, but I do have to face life head on, because my time here is very limited now and I am weak. Her dad knows this! How fair can it be for himm to kick me when Im down? So, what are my options? I was thinking maybe get in touch with the friend of the court? I feel like my hands are tied..do you have any more ideas of what the next step should be? thank you so much for helping me, I really need a good friend right now and this site is a blessing to me.

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witchiepoo

dear jlwow...

i have always appreciated another person and/or friend who is a good listener. they r few and far between.

"any more ideas of what the next step should be?"....
my question to you is...what does your heart say/feel? when you look within and ask what do u come up with?

in luv & light....raven

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penbyrd

FYI---first of all you may not know this but sirens does not have an estranged adult child--has an 11 year old and wants to learn about how to prevent an estrangement----As many have said, When our children were ll years old we never would have predicted an estrangement. You really should get on to a different site as you are not offering support, but judging us---most of us have spent hours and hours judging ourselves trying to figure out what might have happened---we are not stupid people---your ideas and suggestions are generally inflamatory and do not offer ideas that we have not already tried or thought about. Please start a new thread for people like yourself---perhaps you should get off this
site altgether and spend more time with your child and stop wprrying about what might or might not happen. None of us can predict the future and all of us did the best job we knew how to do as parents. No parent sets out to have an adult estranged child and it does no good to tell people what they did wrong--it is too late for that---most of us are looking for support and ideas of how to move forward!

jlwow,

None of us are experts on this subject, but I can tell you from personal experience, your daughter is also between a rock and a hard place. She is 17 years old and knows the mother she loves has cancer and may not be around forever. Although she loves you, she really does fear, as many of us do, that if you die she will be alone in this world. She feels if she is loyal to you now, she will lose her father and perhaps other siblings who are loyal to your ex. At 17 years old, and according to many psychologists children in their 20's, are not emotionally mature enough to understand the long term ramifications involved with terminal illness or the dynamics of divorced parents. They can not see what you ex is doing.

You really have to take care of yourself. You raised your daughter and her siblings for enough years that they will always have beautiful memories of you (hopefully you will see them again in this in your lifetime)---but you don't know all the bad things your ex has said about you---if he truly had your daughters(and their sibliings) best interest at heart he would never talk ill of you, as you are 50% of their blood and they know this. Whenever he talks bad of you, he is also talking bad of them---as you are part of them. They will always carry some resentment towards him for talking badly about you and keeping you away. Unfortuately, it may take longer than you have/want. Why ex's don't realize this I do not know.

Please take care of yourself and remember you did the best you could and you will see your children, if not in this lifetime, in heaven (or whatever your belief is---the next life). Your children know the blood that runs through their veins is particially yours---if you are so awful then what does that make them. Your ex is doing more harm than good--and unfortunately it may be out of your hands at this time---They are afraid of being alone having no family and as stupid as it is, your ex has given them an ultimatum: Him or their terminally ill mother. Why should these children be forced to choose? Someday when they are old enough and have more life experience---they will have developed enough empathy to understand the truth about things. Hope this makes sense!

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jlwow

DearSirens..although I do appreciate your take on this, I feel it would be impossible for you to relate. From reading your other posts,It makes me wonder if your speaking from your heart or just from the negativity that you may feel about your own situation with life. I feel so blessed to have good friends on this site that do read and listen, but at this time I am praying for them, in hopes that with kind words and alot of patience and encouragement, tommorrow will be a brighter day. God has brought us all here for a reason, and I am just comforted that so many people have reached out to me. So I can only suggest to you that..pouring salt into the wounds of another person can only be to your benefit, if your truly concerned about your daughter becoming estranged from you, then this is the wrong site for you. There are many websites that you can get involved with and ya know what..when you really help someone else, and you've given that person some hope, you will be helping yourself too! tx Janet


Penbyrd..how are you doing? Today was not too bad for me. My pillsbury doughboy giggling cookie jar came in the mail that I purchased from Ebay! It's so cute. He's the only man in my life right now(my ex thinks he is but NOT!),(smiling).
Maybe sirens had good intentions, but right at this time I already know what my heart is telling me, I can only speak with my heart, I have turned it over to God, it's more than I am humanly possible to deal with by myself. I probably should have told you that my youngest daughter does not know that my cancer is terminal, that is one of the few things that my ex and I have decided to hold off on telling her. She knows I have cancer, but I don't plan on dying soon, I'm fighting with everything I have. That's pretty much how this got so overwhelming. Because her dad is trying to break my spirit, he must have realized that she is what keeps me going, her enthusiasm for life and the love I have for her is what I get up in the morning for. He's always abused me in some form of this, have you ever heard of the saying..blowing out my candle to make his brighter,? that's what he does, it's an insecurity that he doesn't even realize he has. I know him like a book(that's kinda scary).
As far as my daughter goes, I think your right on the mark there, she is definetly between a rock and a hard place. I just can't tell her that this cancer is inoperable(pancreatic). Especially without me being with her to help her cope. With everything else she has on her shoulders right now, I am in fear of breaking her spirit too, or maybe worse.I know she's strong and she is making the best of a tough situation. She should have never been taken there, but as it is,he lied himself to the courts while I was in the hospital and he gained custody. I resigned to the fact that she may be better off up there, but now this has started, and were both left with heart break. Everything she says and does is under his control including what she says to me on the phone, so I do understand that she has to put up a good front for him. My other two adult children, my son is 25 and my other daughter is 30. My son, takes his dads side no matter what. My oldest daughter, she has been estranged for quite awhile, and I miss her and my grandkids but she is alot like her dad, and she has chosen not to be in my life, I think about her everyday, but I can't change how she does things, the only hope I have is to keep my youngest from falling into her father's trap. I really can't think with my heart right now, I have to rely on my commonsense, my heart says..just go get a lawyer and fight to get her back, but that's sorta selfish on my part. She is happy there, and for me to step in and turn her life upside down again may not be the answer. Just getting her dad to stop causing problems for her and I and to realize the importance of her relationship with me is what I need to do, I just don't know how. So it just keeps getting worse. Thank you so much for everything and I'm sorry if this is confusing, I just start typing and it all pours out. I just don't know what I would do without you right now. You have made a remarkable difference in how I see and think about things.

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fuzzywuzzy

Penbyrd, to add further to the Sirens story, she is estranged from her mother and has been for a long time. Although she will say she never thinks about her mother (and add LOL's after that statement), it's quite obvious that this is constantly on her mind, although she will deny such, and she's afraid it will happen to her, as well it might.

Jlwow, I wish I had some words of encouragement for you, but I don't, other than I believe your daughter loves you a great deal. Do you believe that your ex has told your daughter how ill you are? My one thought is that young people sometimes feel invincible and the inevitability of death is not real to them, they know it intellectually but not emotionally.

So my question to you: is it really in your daughter's best interest to not tell her about the extent of your illness? Perhaps she is under some hope that you will recover.

When her school starts again, could you contact the school and talk to a social worker or psychologist, who might know you daughter, about your situation? It doesn't sound to me like her father is helping her get through this at all and perhaps the best thing you could do for her is to find someone she might be willing to talk to. I believe whatever a student tells a school social worker or psychologist is privileged information and your ex would never have to know, unless she chose to tell him.

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penbyrd

First of all, Sirens I want you to know that I didn't intend to be unkind, but please try to understand from an estranged parent's point of view that we are our own worse critics. Most of us have questioned over and over again what we might have done wrong as parents. It just does not really help to point out what we can't change (i,e the past). I've read over and over again in these post parents saying "I wish as a parent I woulda, coulda, shoulda." The problem is we can't and we need the sanity to know and accept tha we can't redo the past. Support and ways to move forward without making ourselves crazy is what we can do at this point. I hope you never have to deal with an estrangement from your child, but if you knew my son at age 11, even at age 23, you never would have predicted it either.

jlwow,

Your daughter may not know the extent of your cancer, but she does know you are ill and it seems fairly obvious that your ex has done and continues to do what he can to try to alienate all of your children. Fuzzywuzzy's idea of speaking to the school counselor may work as long as you can contact the counselor ahead of time and know for certain that your ex will not find out. If he finds out, it might make life harder for her.

Someone once suggested to me that even though I may never see my son again that I should write him letters/cards and keep them in a box for him to read when we are not longer around. I haven't done this yet, but was considering starting a diary for him to read when I am gone. It really is a tough situation as you don't want to cause them problems, yet your daughter has a right to know how much you love her. Your ex seems to think that by talking bad about you and excluding you from her life means "out of site out of mind." The trouble is he is not your daughter and you have a bond with her that he will never break--you are on her mind--you can't raise a child for that many years and her not have some good, loving memories of you.

She really needs someone to be there for her to comfort her, not someone threatening to disown her or criticizing her own mother. Whether your ex wants to believe it or not she is worried about you, but he makes her feel like she is disloyal to him if she contacts you. This is most definately causing her a lot of inner turmoil and can you imagine the inner turmoil she will feel when she finds out that you have terminal cancer or if you die and no one ever told her the truth. She will feel betrayed.

It sounds as though your ex is not easy to deal with, but do you think he would send her to a counselor by herself. I understand your worry for her. The way your ex is ignoring that you exist and acting as though you are the enemy is probably causing her inner turmoil that she may be too young to understand. What will her future realtionships be like if this is the example she is being shown?

You need as little stress in your life as possible as stress is not good for your condition. There may be little you can do but leave it to God or your higher power.

I often refer to the serenity prayer

God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can and the wisdon to know the difference.

You can work on decreasing your stress, you can write her letters or cards even if you may not be able to mail them. You can try to find joy in you current life. You can't change your ex.

I will continue to pray for you as I understand the pain involved with having an estranged child. I could make myself crazy thinking about what to do to have him back in our lives. The problem is I have tried so many things and nothing has worked---My unsuccessful efforts have just made me more depressed and anxious. I try daily to accept that I can not change this situation, that it is not within my control.

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magoo_2006

"God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can and the wisdon to know the difference."

That pretty much sums it up right there. I can only talk for myself on how I am handling this after years of trying to make things work. I am getting a Bachelors Degree in Dec and in May my youngest graduates. Then I am relocating. I dont know where just so it is not around here. I am starting over fresh with a positive perspective. I know in my own heart and mind that I have done all that I could do for him and I was a good mother to him but his twisted mind cannot or will not allow him to believe or remember that. I can NOT live his life for him, I can ONLY live mine. I am looking forward to my future and I will not look back. I will continue to pray for him but that is all I can do. I have to get on with my life because life is so short and so precious. I give the same advice to my 2 youngest boys. But my oldest estanged son still tries to poison their minds against me. This is all a BIG game to an abuser. Divide and Conquer is their goal. For your own peace of mind, you have to move on and above it or the "what if's" will worry yourself sick. I trust that my youngest boys will learn that this is all just mind games for him and will distance theirselves from him eventually. That is all I can do, everything else is out of my control.

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jlwow

Hi magoo..I appreciate your response. That prayer is beautiful. I'm going to use it,if you don't mind, and try to make a little plaque of it, I think I can using the web and my printer. I wanted to ask you if your son had an abusive father? Sometimes this alone will cause him to follow that behavior. If not, then it sounds your a "class act" mother, and are very strong to deal with this, He will have to want to get the help he needs, I think you've done all you can do. My ex was physically abusive to me and emotionally abusive to all of us. He still is, he was an abused child, and obviously very mixed up. We tried counseling for our mariage, he hated it, and would quit going when we would get to opening up emotionally. He's extremely insecure(almost acts like he's afraid, because he needs his kids to protect him from something way down deep inside of himself...--Could your son problems relate to this insecurity? Poisoning your other kids with mind games, is almost like trying to get someone to make him feel stable. Sometimes I feel like it's better to cut the ties in this kind of situation, like you said he hadn't hit you YET..but he probably would and maybe even hurt your kids too. I told my ex when I divorced him, after 20 yrs that "I loved him" but the abuse was too much for me, I felt like that there might come a time when he was on the warpath and I was upset that either one of us could have done something terrible to each other that we might regret forever.When an abusive relationship escalates out of control..both parties are so emotionally angry and hurt that anything could happen. It's good to know that you are taking the steps to move on, maybe there should be a site for parents who have to divorce their adult children because of abuse. My oldest daughter is emotionally abusive to me, just like her dad, she chose to keep me out of her life, but except for my grandkids that I can't see, I have found a way similar to yours where I just decided I could not take it anymore, and moved on. I hope that the peace of mind that you are in need of will also give your younger sons the comfort that they deserve too.

I wanted to mention, something that you wrote to me in your last post. Your right about the idea of my youngest daughter(Cricket) not know the extent of my cancer. Her dad does not want her to know. He definitly will not let her have counseling, it might really bring out the truth about him and upset his applecart. Ya know what I mean? Any professional counselor that spoke with her to any degree would be able to get to the bottom of it all real quick. He won't even let her have her ADD meds, he told me that she's not ADD..she just needs some discipline in her life! Yeah.
I struggle with the thought of telling her about my illness in more depth, I don't want to betray her, I just need to be with her when we talk about it. I go to counseling for the first time on Monday, hopefully she can shed some light on this issue too. I know it sounds kinda crazy but I do write her letters and stuff like that, I just dont send them because nothing there is private for her, not even her phone calls with me I used to send her emails but she never responded, and when I ask her about it she sounded standoffish, so I got the impression that he monitors this too. When she really needs to talk to me she goes to her friends house and calls me, I haven't heard from her lately, I'm hoping that he did not intercede this too. I do find some joy in my life, I find alot of contentment just working on my home, decorating and gardening and such, I had to live at the homeless shelter for a bit last year, I had to stop working and file for disability, so I had to go there temporarily, it was a total nightmare for me, I was sick and it was like bootcamp, I ended up in the hospital, so when my disability was approved I got a new home right away, and after living in that shelter,it gave me a new appreciation for a good home. I'm very content here, I just need my daughter to be ok. Even with contentment, I find myself worrying about her and missing her but in my heart I know that God will get us through this, he has been there for us all the time and with faith and hope, and alot of prayer, he will guide us to happiness again. I will pray for you and your family as well, and with your strength as a Mom , you too will find the peace and joy that you deserve. It seems to me that your taking the negative out of your life and stay positive, I know your gonna make it. Sincerely Janet

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fuzzywuzzy

Janet, I have begun a package for my granddaughters which will be delivered to them when they turn 18. It consists of letters I write to them yearly, copies of all the cards I have sent them for birthdays and holidays (which are not given to them), pictures of them when they used to visit me, a copy of the CD (not that they will be able to play it) of kids songs that we used to play and sing to in the car and a family history.

These packages are kept in my safe deposit box. Should I still be alive when the oldest turns 18, I will deliver it to her in person. Should I not be alive, my attorney has instructions to find her and either deliver it in person or have it delivered to her in person.

Don't EVER trust the post office with mail marked to be delivered to addressee only - they don't honor that request and will let anybody sign for it.

I know that you might not have the strength, but if your ex is not allowing your daughter access to her ADD meds (and my dtr. has ADD so I know about it), could that not be seen as being abusive. Also, the parental alienation - is that not also abuse? Could you act on that?

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witchiepoo

"letting go"....

letting go has helped me on many occasion...and it really does work. it came to me years ago when i had learned to "keep trying". there is a time and place for each. over the years i tried all kinds of different strategies...and then slowly came to the realization that i needed to try "them" but they weren't working. why keep beating my head against a brick wall. life is too short and i am not a masochist. i don't regret my "trying" because i can look back and know that i did my best .... and that is all i can do. my thing is to not live with regrets and i can say i tried. realizing all this THEN i let go and moved on. i focus on myself...my door is open but i cannot keep behaving in a way that no longer works. i like feeling good. find things you enjoy doing...people/friends u like being with. having said that...it's important to be true to your feelings though. i have days like today where i feel the deep hole inside of me and that is okay and so i am writing to all of you and will listen and respond.

enjoy your day...smiles...raven

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shulamitedove

I am new to this website and would like to share my story. I am glad that my friend suggested this site to me because I am at my wit's end as to how to handle my situation with my daughter.

I have 2 grown children - a son (no problems with him) and a daughter. I also have 2 grandsons - both of them are my daughter's children. Ever since my daughter was 12 years old there have been problems with her. She has run away from home, been in jail, done drugs, you name it. She also joined a gang and that gang (along with her) robbed my home. I was also a single mom at the time.

My daughter is not beneath lying and making up awful stories about me and her brother - and anyone else she gets angry with (usually for no good reason). There have been periods of time when she has come around - usually when she needs something - acted like a daughter (for a short time) and then she's gone again. Won't talk to me - nothing.
She married a man who was abusive and was married for 10 years. Last year she left him. She took the children with her. I thought that everything was fine in our relationship until she met another man and then she started acting funny once again toward me. Before this happened we saw our grandsons just about every week.

She stopped talking to me on her birthday, March 23 of this year. I have no idea why. She won't answer my emails, has blocked my phone calls, nothing. The worst part of the whole thing is I can't see my grandchildren. I don't know what to do.

Someone suggested I start a diary for the 2 boys, buy them cards but don't send them, gifts, etc. Then when they are old enough give them the gifts and let them know I was always there for them. I am remarried and my husband has always been a good grandfather even though biologically he is not their real granddad. He is hurt by this as well.

This whole thing grieves me to no end. I pray and though my faith is strong I still feel the loss and family events that we are invited to just pain me to no end. Any suggestions on anything else I can do?

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magoo_2006

jlwow, in response to your question, "Was my son's father abusive?" No, he wasn't. But my son never met his father. To make a long story short, his father got into some trouble and went to prison bwefore my son was born. WHile he was in prison, I moved away and never saw him again. To this day, I feel it was best for my son and me to get away from him. I never spoke bad of him to my son, in fact spoke of nothing but good things about his dad. Anyway, when my son did get older we did try to find him and found out that he had died. So he never had a father or a step father. I raised him by myself. We were very close and I had kept from my family a lot of what he has said and done to me so it was a real shock when the truth came out about his behavior. I always tried to overcompensate for him not having his father because I felt so guilty.
He did talk to a counselor once when he was talking suicide (I think that was just a ploy to get attention). But he told me that he acted normal in front of the counselor and so he was released. He said that he could act normal anytime he wanted to. He is very, very manipulative and DANGEROUS! he has all the symptoms of a psychopath. http://groups.msn.com/PSYCHOPATH/home.msnw

Welcome shulamitedove, I am new to this site myself. I am so sorry to hear that you are going through this. No one deserves such treatment especially from thier kids. It took me a LOT of years, a LOT of tears and a LOT of fears before I finally got to the point I am at today but I finally chalked up the whole thing that it is JUST beyond my control and I will NO longer let it rule or ruin my life. I dont know if you are at that point yet but that would be my advice. Walk away from it all and focus your time and energy on something productive in your life that will enrich your life and fulfill it with warmth and happiness. I believe also that sometimes you just have to let something go before it will ever come back to you. If that makes any sense. Maybe it is your daughters turn to think that maybe SHE has lost YOU. Maybe she needs to know what it feels like.

Magoo

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jlwow

To shulamitedove..I read your posting and thought about it for awhile. is it possible that your daughter is using your grandkids as pawns to make you unhappy? I know that taking away the most important things in your life can cause unbearable emotional pain. it sounds like she is trying to punish you for something. I've been through this with my oldest daughter and It took me awhile of calling and getting hung up on and etc, begging and pleading just to find out why or what I had done to cause this, I never found out. I came close to a nervous breakdown, until I finally just came to the conclusion that my daughter was angry inside about something and she used the kids to hurt me. I still dont see them, but you can still find peace of mind knowing that they love you and your husband, here's how I managed once I resigned myself to the fact that I did nothing wrong, and I cant change how she feels..I stopped calling, stopped sending anything to her, I decided not to play into her hand anymore. I saw my grandkids at the grocery store one day(there are 5 of them together) all between 9yrs and 2yrs..my daughter was mortified, (smiling), because I heard my grandson yell my name(nammy they call me) from down the aisle, I looked and they all came running! We had our own little family reunion right there in the store, my daughter never said a word, and didn't move, but I realized then that they love me no matter what. I think it was Gods work to put us all there for the time. But your daughter has to realize that she is hurting them too as well as you, I'm sure that she misses you and knows that this behavior is hurting everyone involved, but perhaps (if she thinks like my daughter) then her pride and stubborn nature has not allowed her to make things right. If you can just put yourself in her situation as a mother and a daughter, she is struggling with this too, so if you just per say, give up for awhile, she may change her mind. Your grandkids love you dearly and will see you even if it takes longer than you expected, hold them close at heart and in memory, if you can find that strong faith in God, he will work miracles that you would not believe! It's a good thing that you have a great husband to lean on when you are feeling low, together this story has a happy ending, I just know it! bless you... Janet

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sniffles07

Our adult children can treat us how they want..but they can't kill the love our grandchildren have for us. I found this out with my oldest grandson. It doesn't matter what is said or done by his parents, how long they keep him away, he still loves us and actually prefers our home. He remembers when he didn't get to see us for a few years, and does not like it! He talks about it occasionally. We don't encourage him to talk to us about it...we just tell him, remember whatever happens, we love you and you are always welcome (when he brings it up). There's a bond there that no matter what sil does, he just can't kill that love!

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laurene1970

I too am heartbroken about the treatment my 31 yr. old single daughter has been giving me within the past few years. Whenever she has a boyfriend she has no patience or use for me. I am in her way. She went from hanging up on me and not talking to me, to calling randomly as if nothing had happened, to screaming and saying she can't stand me. She uses every excuse she can to break off from me and I'm tired of feeling the threat. I am alone and feel very depressed over this lack of respect and love. When she doesn't have a boyfriend, she is [patient and accomodating. She can't get enough of me and my constant unconditional love and support. She spends a great deal of time with me. Now when I ask her why she doesn't keep her plans with me or make a plan, she gets angry and resentful. I do not interfere in her life, but I'm getting sick and tired of her "dumping me" to the side of the road and provoking fights. She then runs to her boyfriend for support and to get closer. I feel like I am a pawn used to help her get closer to her boyfreinds. This pattern has been going on for the last three boyfrinds who meant something to her. Her last boyfriend was just a "fill-in" for her so she didn't treat me badly. I'm going to seek counseling, possibly family with her to try to understand and fix this. If it doesn't work, I'm afraid it might be over and I can't even imagine my own daughter and I not ever speaking again. I have been an outstanding mother, but I think I did something wrong. I'm feeling very bad about myself. Please help me to understand or offer your thoughts or feelings. She also didn't speak to me for the first 2 weeks of July or call to wish me a Happy Birthday. She called the following day anjd acted as if nothing was wrong and never mentioned it. She gave me a very impersonal card. I can't understand this cycle of her abusive isolating treatment when she has a boyfriend. it's like "them" teaming against me.When she has no one--she is fantastic. It's insane and making me crazy. She stormed out of my house tonight and embarassed and upset me by "peeling out" in front of my house.I was shaking all over and I've already had a mini'stroke. Thanks for listening.

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shulamitedove

Hi to all of you who posted in response to my post about my daughter. Thank you for your advice - I think I need to distance myself a bit from her too. She uses me when she needs me and uses the grandkids as pawns to hurt me. It's weird because just this morning she sent me an email - said that it's been a while since she's heard from me and asked if I'm mad at her. This after I've sent her emails and tried calling her. This is how she twists things around - I suspect something is not going well again in her life and she needs me - of course she'll make me feel guilty for her not being in touch, etc.

I was blown away by the many blogs I read about similar situations that mothers have with their adult children. Somehow when we go thru these times of trouble we don't think there are others who go thru estrangement. I have friends who seem to have really good relationships with their children and it always makes me think - what did I do wrong? I know now it isn't me - it's her decision and it's hard to accept that - kind of like grieving - but it's a process and I know I will get there.

I do have another 'daughter' - she is my adopted daughter so to speak. A good friend of mine passed away a number of years ago and asked me if I would be a 'mom' to Tracey. I have honored that committment to the best of my ability and you know what? I have a wonderful daughter in her. She is my rock in many ways. She is not biologically related but I couldn't have a better daughter if she was. I do think God has given her to me so. Tracey is a sort of litmus test - when she accepts me and loves me unconditionally then I realize that it's not my fault with my other daughter.

They say tough love is the best - it's hard - because I always seem to 'cave.' Even now - she sends me an email - what do I do? I want to respond but am I playing into her game? It's been 4 months since she's talked to me and she blocked my number and wouldn't answer my emails before now.

Shulamitedove

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anniebal

Laurence, your daughter sounds like she is much younger then 31 years old, could she just be immature? It sounds like she needs to grow up desperately, and quit carrying a chip on her shoulder around that your the reason for all her troubles.

I would stop allowing her to treat you in this manner. She is abusing your love and patience, and it needs to stop.

Is there a father in her life, or have you always been a single parent? Perhaps she doesn't get along with him either? Do you have other children?

There is something going on with some of today's kids (20-35 age group, est.) with a huge sense of entitlement. It seems they think or believe they can walk in and out of our lives any darn time they want to, and we should be sitting waiting for them when they do. I'm dealing with this with my oldest son now. We've been estranged for a year, and he has such control and anger issues. He married a girl who has some type of personality disorder (in our opinion, and from everything I've read.) I've also discussed it with my therapist, since I also consulted someone to help me through this awful ordeal.

There were always problems with respect from his girl to us from the moment they started dating. It just spiraled out of control over the next few years, until it blew up all together last summer. I've been in great pain and depressed the entire last year, and I finally hit bottom a few weeks ago. It was that night when I read the ridiculous email he wrote us that I realized I'm done with it. I have cried, and persued a relationship with them the entire time he has been with her (married 3 years, together 4.5) In his email it was just more of the same, how much we hurt him, how we don't do this, or we don't do that, blah, blah, blah. For my own satisfaction, I copied his email into my word program and answered all of his accusations, sentence by sentence. This was very therapeutic for me.

The next morning I had this feeling of freedom like I can't explain. I knew I was not going to reply to his email, nor was I going to even try to contact him ever again. I'm tired of playing games, and he needs to grow up. If he wants parents in his life then he has to accept us for who we are, and vice verse. We've been willing to do that, he has not.

I recommend the therapist if your daughter is willing to accompany you to one. Suggest that you find someone neutral to recommend one, so that your daughter can't accuse you of manipulating the therapist.

My son would not agree to do this. In reality tho, I believe my son would go to therapy with us since he has sought therapy for himself. However, my dil has a superiority complex, and believes she is never wrong. I knew she would never agree to go to a therapist no matter who suggested one, and I was right. Instead my son made up some lame excuse about why they're 'not ready.'

If your daughter won't go to therapy, then perhaps it's time to give her a time out? Let her know you love her and want her in your life, but not with her present behavior. Be firm about appointments, and if she continues to disappoint you by cancelling, don't schedule anything for a very long time.

You certainly should go to a therapist, with or without your daughter. It doesn't seem like it now, but it will help a great deal in helping you through this. You need and deserve this for yourself.

anniebal

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laurene1970

annibal
Thanks for the advice. It was helpful and felt so supportive to see you validate my pain and struggles. You truly understand because you've been through it. I will not let her abuse my love or patience any longer-thanks for those words of advice. I feel like a doormat. Been single since she was 16. No she hasn't spoken to her father in 15 yrs. I have a 35 yr. old son and 29 yr. old daughter who don't treat me this way. They live far away (job related). They walk on eggshells to avoid problems with her. It's so true about entitlement---conditional love from our children. They are adults and we should be either in or out of their lives...consistently. No games. It's disrespectful, painful and unacceptable. We as parents were born human beings-- not parents. We feel pain too. I'm not accepting this popping in and out as the need arises.
How old is your son? It sounds like you have suffered so much, but have finally reached some inner peace. That feeling of freedom must have been so empowering since you probably felt a sense of loss of power with your son for a while. I think he used guilt as a form of manipulation to try to control you so you can be who he wants, when he wants. You are breaking away from the emotional abuse ---good for you!! I know it's not easy, but your son does need to grow up and accept you. He needs to love and value you before it's too late. Sounds like disfunctional teamwork from his wife. She is trying to keep you isolated from him and shame on him for being a part of it. YOU ARE HIS MOTHER__how our children don't value that anymore.
These "games" my daughter and your son play, destroy relationships,with no positive outcomes. If only our self-centered adult children could see beyond themselves. My world of emotion used to be destroyed and I was totally distraught. Now I'm upset and sad, but not distraught. I'm getting conditioned and I've started grieving the loss of my relationship. I live alone, and don't discuss this with others so it's very hard, but people like you help me to be stronger . It sounds like you are a giver like me and our children are takers. Difficult to even consider, but necessary in order to understand and move on.
Hope I brought some words of support and comfort to you.

P.S. I already called a counselor. I need help and believe you when you say it will help me. Thanks.

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magoo_2006

This all sounds so familiar b/c I have lived through it all, also. I know the pain you are experiencing. For your own child to turn against you in such a hateful and devious way is like twisting a knife in your heart. But there is good news. You can move past it, life does go on and you can be happy. One lesson that I learned is not to depend on someone else for my happiness....not my children, not my grandchildren, no one. Start by having inner peace. Stay clear away from aaallllllll this negativity that your abusive adult children throw at you. Dont answer emails, dont answer the phone, dont be accessible! In fact, change your phone number, block the emails, move away, whatever it takes to gain control of YOUR life back. This is YOUR life and only YOU can change it. i havent talked to my vengeful adult son in about a year now. Things are so much more peaceful but he is still THERE and I know that it is just a matter of time that he will try and start trouble again. SO I am making a drastic change, I am relocating as soon as my youngest son graduates from high school. I wont do it before then because my youngest son has went to the same school since kindergarten and I wont do that to him. BUT I will leave next summer to another state. Im not sure where yet but it will be far enough away that I will never have to worry about him causing me trouble again. I can live in peace and there is no better feeling. He tortured my other boys and me for many years but he'll never do it again. he will have no more power over us. Take their power away and get your life back.

Good luck!

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merry_heart

hi all,
I have been reading these posts and am deeply sorry for all the pain you all are going through. Sometimes when one of my kids is acting up, I wonder why don't they just want to be "good", but then I realize an emotionally upset person probably can't behave rationally and I guess they can't be thoughtful or concerned about other people's feelings. I don't know, though, the one thing that I always think of is this: As an adult child, I never, ever showed disrespect to my parents. I just knew that was wrong, it would ruin the relationship.So I guess all this does have something to do with the times we live in.

On another topic, I notice that some moms are upset that their estranged son or daughter interferes with the mom's involvement with her grandchildren. My self-esteem went to sub-zero when my son went into deep depression a couple of years ago and he blamed me for it. When that happened, I lost all confidence I may have ever had as a mom, and knew that I just didn't want to think about ever being a grandmother. So I'm curious as to how some of you want that. Please don't judge me--I just feel that if my kid thinks I did such a horrible job, why would I want to influence their kids? They would probably be thinking I'd mess up their kids or something. Does anyone else feel this way?

About letting go--it is so hard to do, but I know in these situations you have to do it. I know as moms we always have visions for how we think things will be for our grown kids in the future. I've imagined loving visits, times when they might appreciate me, even thank me for what I did. I imagined long phone calls with my daughters about things that they experience in raising kids, husbands, menopause, aging, etc (things I couldn't have with my mother). But when things go wrong and it's out of your control, yes, you really do need to let go. I wanted to share something that helps me to get into that letting-go mode. It may sound a little morbid, but really it isn't. Maybe some of you do this also. Through some excellent books I have, I read & get in touch with my own mortality. I'm reading one now called "Sacred Passage", written by an RN. It is for health care practictioners to help others who are dying accept death & to see it as not so scary. Initially, I got the book to help myself know what to say/how to treat patients who are critically ill at the hospital where I volunteer. But the book is really helping me. Somehow, when I read this, and really see that my life can end at any time, I see that at some time I will have to let go of my life here on earth, and that really does help me with letting go of these situations with my kids. Somehow this way of thinking helps me to not feel so bad about the disappointments I have concerning them. It seems like it would make you feel worse, like you wish you had done this or that, but honestly, facing my mortality somehow takes the burden off. The book also talks about the idea of "impermanence", how things are in a constant state of change--somehow I am also strengthened by that. I had also read the book "Embraced by the Light" by Betty Eadie many years ago. That book has brought much comfort to me through the years. I like her explanation of the "life review", how we all will see, at the end of our lives, how everything we have done affected others, yet we are not being judged for anything, we just can judge ourselves. So, I take comfort in the fact that, though one or more of my kids may see me as unloving, or a bad mom, or whatever, I believe that truth and justice does win out in the end. I hang onto that, because I guess I'd go crazy if I didn't believe it.
Janet, have you have your counselling appointment yet? If so, I hope it helped, let us know.

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laurene1970

Merry heart
I also don't understand how we knew not to treat our parents badly. We just wouldn't hurt them or our relationship. It's true that an emotionally charged person may have trouble acting rationally,but it's funny how she doesn't act like this at work (educator), with friends or boyfriends. She knows how to control herself. It's because adult children think that if a parent loves them unconditionally, they will get away with their hurtful unacceptable behaviors. It becomes a cycle of emotional abuse and control.Makes them feel important.
I felt a tug at my heart when you said that as a parent you think about the many wonderful times and talks that lie ahead with your adult children. You envision being in a good relationship and always being there enjoying there new experiences. Breaks my heart to think that life is not a rehearsal, it's here and now and time is wasting away. It can never be given back and damage is difficult to repair. My daughter is only concerned about herself when she's in a relationship and wants me to just sit here and let her tell me me when, how and if she'll see me.She acts annoyed to be with me. I feel pathetic and sick. This is my daughter who I love dearly. She provokes fights to walk out which is her number one fear and pet peave.She is so upset when it's done to her. When she's not in a relationship, she is a totally different person. I still don't understand why. It's like she uses me as needed. Thanks for the recommendation of the book. I will try it but hope it doesn't make me sad.

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shulamitedove

I spoke with my husband and my daughter Tracey and they both agree that I have to distance myself from Tabitha once and for all. She always plays these games and sucks me in - and it is so upsetting and bad for my health. I have MS and when I get stressed, I get sick.
I read what you wrote Magoo and it made so much sense. We as mothers have to have our lives back - live again - be happy. We raised our kids to the best of our abilities and we shouldn't feel guilty just because they want us to be. For years I felt like a yo-yo. Or a puppet. Anyway, we don't need to put up with abuse - and I commend you for your stand with your son. I am working on my stand with my daughter - I'm not totally there yet but reading what others have written and how to go about the 'tough love' thing has helped tremendously. Thanks all!

Shulamitedove

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witchiepoo

Today i feel lonely and miss having a family. it's like empty spaces inside...emptiness and sadness. as some of you may know...i "let go" sometime ago. it's not anything "you get over." it's like the ocean...the wave goes in and the wave goes out...LOSS is something u learn to live with. i miss what i don't have today...

raven....

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shulamitedove

Raven,

I understand how you are feeling today - I'm in the process of letting my daughter go (along with the grandchildren) and it isn't easy. It's difficult and only someone who has been there can even begin to relate. Sometimes I do very well - until I hear a song or see the grandchildren's toys in the closet or the cartoon dvd's that our grandson used to love. Then I lose it. I used to have Jacob every weekend - I haven't seen him since March 23 - my daughter's birthday. I had a big dinner for her - the whole nine yards - and haven't seen her since.

For some reason she got mad about something (I am always walking on eggshells with her) and then she pulled the rug out from under me. I had a very sad Mother's Day - she didn't care - she was off for the week with her boyfriend. I have tried to call and email her - nothing back. Just the other day she emailed and asked why I was mad at her.

It's a game she plays and I have decided (thru counselling and lots of prayer) to distance myself until she realizes that if she wants a mother she has to be a daughter. It's hard - but I know I did the right thing.

I am giving you a big virtual hug and letting you know that you aren't alone. This too shall pass - what you are feeling today. Try doing something you really enjoy - something that makes you happy. And focus on you! Hang in there.

Shulamitedove

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laurene1970

Hi everyone,
Raven
I sympathize with you. I just don't understand how this all happens and perhaps I never will. I too am going through a great deal of aloneness and sadness today.
We need to try to ride out the storm and hope someday, someway our children realize the value of a mother (a good mother). My thoughts and prayers are with all of us who have or are suffering.
I'm feeling very down today and my problem is wondering "Is this my story of how my relationship with my daughter ends?" Is ir forever?? Very painful. I'm alone and it's difficult.

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penbyrd

laurene1970,

It appears that these estrangements last as long as the estranger choses and there appears there is not much us the estranged parent can do to change it (based on experience, literature, blogs, couselors, therapsists). I've tried just about everything--the list is too long to mention--but if you have a question about a certain way to try to end the estrangement and whether or not it will work, I can probably tell you what I tried and others have tried it and it only made things worse and makes the parent fell even worse---like hitting your head up against a brick wall. Some estrangements do end just not on our time lines--some estrangements do not end (unfortunately). I just like so many parents thought things would be different with my son as we were good loving parents and he was a good loving boy(now man). We don't even know what caused the estrangement and he won't speak to us to tell us---it started with a controlling, selfish, unkind, cruel, etc(you get the idea) first girlfriend.

Is it forever is something no one can answer-some are resolved, some are not--but unfortunately it is not within in our control---the only thing in our control is the rest of our life. I have only one child and have lost him as well as the dream of a DIL to spend time with, have lunch, coffee, shopping as well as the hope of grandchildren. It will be 3 years in December---It is painful---I still cry daily---I have better days and really bed days--my husband doesn't understand--so getting his support is hard. I've tried many counselors---most end up telling me to move on---i.e. get a hobby----if I could I wound---so if you go to counseling don't settle for the first one--I have a good one now--but I went throught about 10. It does get discouraging---you are not alone--this website helps you to share, get support and realize you are not a bad person and are not alone. YOu did the best you could as a parent and don't question that or balme yourself---kids do not come with manuals. Do not be critical of yourself---most of us do it---please don't. Most of the people one the site are great---but at times you will find a critical person- just ignore them--this site is for support and how to move forward--- which is what we all need to do---it is not easy, but you are not alone and we are here for you. When you feel down write about it--it helps especially since our hands are tied when it comes to our children. My prayers are with you and all of us with this difficult problem. It is more commone than you thing--it is just problem the average person, ie your neighbors, friends do not relate to --and often judge thinking if your child does not speak to you then you must be a bad parent--they are not the ones to tell or ask for support as there are terrible parents our there who have children who have realtionships with their parents---is that fair? No one has a right to judge or insult you.

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witchiepoo

shulmativedove & laurene1970...

i thank you for your ears and responding today. i am not one much to talk about my situation but on occasion i might. i have learned at my age that nothing is "forever" and things can and do change. however, it has been 19 years and overall...nothing has changed significantly. i am living with the loss and let myself experience the LOSS when it comes up. as the years have gone on the guilt dissapated but the loss and sadness i cycle with. it really is like experiencing a death because the loss is there. i have heard many a story though that relationships can indeed come together. i know they can and wish this for you both.

like forrest gump would say, "life is like a box of cherries...you never know what you're gonna get." some days r better than others.

i lost my mother when i was 17 yrs old...huge loss. i wish i had her to talk with.

you r not alone...i care.

...raven

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witchiepoo

losing a child is like a big black hole that CAN consume but never really goes away. it becomes a part of us.

until next time...raven

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laurene1970

Penbyrd >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Thanks for helping me stay strong mentally.
You help me to see that I am not the one who chose the estrangement, therefore I can't chose to end it. Good point to ponder.. It's the third time my daughter has done this in two yrs. and each time gets worse (longer). There is no remorse or genuine concern for how she treats me.:"It's my fault that she acts this way."
Thanks for boosting me and reminding me that "we" are good mothers and it's really NOT OUR FAULT>
I'm sorry to hear that you cry daily and don't really have much support from your husband. Stay strong and take care of yourself doing whatever makes you feel better.I understand and do care. Maybe someday it will change.
Feel free to drop me a line if you want to talk.
I have an appt w/a counselor=-hope it helps me.
THanks ALL for your support!!
Hey everyone---keep up the good rapport --reaching out to others!!!! WE ALL NEED IT>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

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garden60

Penbyrd - THANK YOU! THANK YOU!!! I just read your words and you are living my life! The estrangement from my son is almost unbearable and time doesn't heal wounds, as the saying goes.

My son married a woman who made it her mission to pull him away from his family. She even commented she thought he and I were too close, as she hates her bio mom. Through much nastiness, she demanding money from us, etc., and our refusal, it got nastier. After the wedding they came to our house and what came out of her mouth was unbelievable; my son just sat there.

Then a few months later he sent me an email saying he no longer wanted any emails, phone calls, birthday cards, holiday cards, nothing from me and he would let me know if he ever wanted a relationship again. That was 8 moths ago and I am sad every day.

Yes, I have been to a Christian counsellor, yes, I have family and friends who tell me it will get better, but none of them have walked in my shoes. My husband and other son treat it like a typical male would but there is something with mothers and the ambilical cords -- we have a different bond with our sons.

My fear is that the longer he stays disconnected to us, the less he will even care if he ever talks to any of us again. Not sure why we are going through this but we are. You will be in my prayers for a reunion, as will everyone else on this site. (I do see reunions happening more with mothers and daughters than with sons, sad to say.)

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shulamitedove

I had a bad day yesterday myself. I have some well-meaning friends who say to me 'leave the door open' - 'keep letting your daughter know how much you love her' - 'don't write her off' - 'that's not the Christian way' - 'you aren't being a good mother if you cut her off'. Stuff like that.

I get so frustrated and then start to second guess myself. I do know that I've prayed about this and realize that it is the only thing I can do. She has abused me for years. When she was a teenager she joined a 'gang' and robbed me one day when I was at work and then went off and robbed a friend of mine the same day. She ended up in jail and of course it was 'my fault.' 'I didn't understand'.

Unless someone has walked in our shoes they cannot even begin to imagine what it is like. I think the best thing for me to do is to keep a lot of what I am going thru to myself or share it only with those who will understand otherwise I set myself up for criticism.

I have a son who has never given me an ounce of trouble. he is overseas right now working and I miss him terribly but we are in touch and he has told me for years to 'let her go - she will only hurt you over and over'. He is right. And I've finally taken that step but it is difficult. The door is open but only with conditions this time.

My other daughter - who also lives in another country - is supportive and gives me good advice. But many of my friends....they don't get it. Well-meaning, but they don't and can't understand.

That is one reason I'm so thankful for this website. We need to support each other and pray for each other. I'm here for all of you and my heart goes out to everyone who has to deal with a situation like our's.

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laurene1970

Hi All
My heart goes out to you for the pain you feel. No one knows what it's like unless they've experienced it. If any one has a negative word to any of us..........keep it to yourself please.
We need support and encouragement.
Tonight is difficult as I sit here alone thinking about how this could be possible. Selfish, self-centered kids I guess. I gave to much and loved too much. Thought I was doing the right thing from my heart., hope it gets better. Going for a walk.
P.S. I ask for prayers as i pray for all of you.

Laurene

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witchiepoo

dear shulamitedove,

i hope your day was a little better than yesterday. mine has been. in response to your last email...you say "well meaning others" say don't write her off it's not the christian thing. speaking for myself...i prefer not to bring religion into this. but i think most people mean well. a lot of folks are good at giving advice. you have to find YOUR WAY through this...this is YOUR LIFE. what works for one does not always work for another. what has worked for me was to try different approaches over the years with my children...if one approach didn't work i would try another...sometimes beating my head against a brick wall. but i needed to do it MY way and in MY time. what has ALWAYS BEEN MOST IMPORTANT TO ME is that i know that i did everything i possiblly could so that later i would not have one regret. i have done that.

my friends don't really get it or understand it either. they have not experienced this kind of loss. but they care i know. speaking for me....i don't talk about it to others because of that and am glad i am hear talking with you.

big hugs...raven

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witchiepoo

dear laurene1970...

i know there are those days when we just sit and wonder "what are our children thinking" ...how self-centered they are!!! how could this be???

you said u luved too much and maybe gave too much and that u did what was in yur heart. u did the best u could do with what u did at the time and that is all anyone can do.

i will keep u in my prayers this evenings and am also sending u a big hug and smile!

....raven

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laurene1970

Raven
You make so much sense. You are such a caring person, it comes through in your writings. I hope you have a peaceful weekend. Your words seem to comfort many, Thanks

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jstgvup

Hi, everyone! Just finished reading the latest posts...haven't logged onto this site in a while, but it is so good to know that there are people out there that really understand and are able to share their stories, insight and support! I agree that being estranged from a child- or children-is a process. As for me, sometimes I feel that I am coping with it fairly well, all things considered, and other days I wonder why I just don't walk into the woods (my personal choice for ending it all). And then I come onto this site and read all the stories and realize that as difficult as it is to deal with this loss myself, there are so many others like yourselves that are going through situations much worse than mine. So when I read how brave you all are, I am ashamed that I would think about ending my life. (not to mention the fact that at this stage of the game it would be like quitting in the ninth inning!) So.. I want to thank you all for being here and for being willing to share your heartache and support. Today is my eldest daughter's 40th birthday. Today I found out that she had been using my mother's name to obtain a phone,as I am guessing her credit wasn't good enough to use her own name as she probably ran up a bill she couldn't pay long ago. Needless to say, I was dismayed, disappointed, heartbroken, etc. This action of hers could cause her jail-time. And that she would use her grandmother's identity is indescribably appalling!..not to mention something I never would've believed she would do! I tried calling her earlier but she was not answering..so I left a message telling her, calmly but firmly, what I had discovered and what she needed to do to avoid legal problems. It was not something I wanted to have to do- especially on her birthday- and I guess it could've waited until tomorrow,but I guess I was in shock and just wanted to hear from her mouth WHY she would DO something like this! I am beginning to realize that I do not even know WHO my children are anymore...and that as far as they are concerned, I am of no importance. I send them cards at Christmas and on their birthday and call on those days also...and I still try to call them several times during the year, but I rarely see them or talk with them. It seems to get less and less each year. I am trying to move on with my life, and at times I see a glimmer of hope that I can find happiness at some point in my life. I, too, have beaten myself up so badly over the past years for all the couldas, shouldas and wouldas that I have surpassed the abuse that my ex-husband heaped on my head many times over. But when I read these posts,I realize that I have had no reason to do so as my grown children's choices are theirs, not mine..as heartbreaking as it is. The only thing I can do for them now as their mother is to pray for them daily. God is the only One who can mend and restore broken hearts and relationships.That is what I believe anyways. Thank you all for being here and for your words of encouragement. Love and prayers..Janis

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magoo_2006

Hi everyone.

My other boys spent the day with his brother (my estranged oldest son)today. They see him and talk to him from time to time but he is not allowed over here. I cant protect them from him entirely as they are old enough to see them on their own without my approval. I dont trust it and I dont like it but I dont say anything about it because it just makes me look like the wicked witch which fits right into his plans. Besides they are teenagers, the more I would preach to them about all the reasons why they should avoid him at all costs, the more they will want to see him. He still is very influential in their lives even though time and time again he has done them wrong. As I have stated in previous posts, I am past the denial, making excuses for him, hopuing that he will ever change, hoping that things will be better, etc. etc. etc. I cant and dont trust him and will never put myself through the horrible misery again. My mind is made up and have made plans to move away as soon as I can. The problems that I am facing now is from my two other boys. My youngest said to me today that I need to make up with him and let him come over/back in the house. I didnt reply at all. There is no need. I WONT go back, I WONT! HE manipulates them and does it with the intention of making me look bad ALWAYS! AND he never does anything unless it benefits HIM because of courcse, the WORLD HAS TO REVOLVE AROUND HIM at everyones expense. Just like he took my youngest (hes 18 y.o.) out today to look for another car. He comes hom with a SUV. This is a young boy that is going to be going to college in a year and I will be gone, he SHOULD have been looking for a car cheap on gas. Of course, he will not be able to afford the gas for that thing BUT (of course, it will benefit my oldest and something that HE would like to have) it is big enough to haul him and all his kids around in. That is just one of many, many situations where he called the shots and manipulated his brothers into something he shouldnt have just to benefit him.

I cannot wait to get out of here. AND I cant wait until my other boys see him for what he really is. I know it will take some time. It took me almost 20 years.

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anniebal

Laurence, I feel terrible that it's been so long since I checked here. I'm glad you decided to consult a therapist, it does help, but it takes time.

I'm glad your other children don't treat you in this manner, but it's too bad they don't live closer to you. Do you get to see them very often? Do they call?

It's interesting that they too walk on egg shells around your daughter. One would think after a time that the siblings would just tell them to grow up and quit being so selfish. I know my own younger son struggles with this estrangement. He knows we are right, he see's his brothers ridiculous control, manipulation, etc. yet he doesn't want to cut off the relationship completely. It's hard to break that bond, and I'm not sure that I want us to break the bond between he and his brother. I know my younger son is resentful of his older brothers slights toward him also, however when he goes to see 'them' it is always very pleasant, as if nothing is wrong.

I do feel a sense of empowerment now, but I do have to remind myself quite often of certain facts. When I start wishing that I just had some type of relationship, some hope, I find myself quickly reminding myself that I had what I thought was hope only to realize that there was no hope, nothing had changed. As parents, and especially moms I feel that we just keep giving our kids another chance because of how much we love them. I'm not saying I wouldn't welcome my son back in my life, but not under his conditions. I've never let anyone run my life, (he's come the closest to it,) and I'm not going to allow it now anymore.

It's sad for me thinking that he is going on with his life without even thinking of me or us, but I can either accept this or be miserable trying to own up to his demands. I can't take the stress or drama of that type of relationship any longer, no matter how much I miss him.

anniebal

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anniebal

magoo, I completely support your opinions on not depending on anyone else for happiness. You stated: "stay clear away from aaallllllll this negativity that your abusive adult children throw at you. Dont answer emails, dont answer the phone, dont be accessible!" What great advice. It took me a year to realize that I was through with emailing him and trying to reason with his irrational thinking. It was always me chasing him, now I'm done. I hope he wonders if I still care, or love him. I hope he wonders why I'm not trying to contact him any longer, but I certainly don't count on him caring that much. There was a time my son could be reasoned wtih, no matter how stubborn he was. But once he met this girl, all reason went out the window.

Good for you magoo for moving on, and making plans to get out of the area. It sounds like its not only in your best interest, but his brothers as well. The rest of our family members deserve our love and attention.

anniebal

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anniebal

Laurence you state: "It's because adult children think that if a parent loves them unconditionally, they will get away with their hurtful unacceptable behaviors. It becomes a cycle of emotional abuse and control.Makes them feel important."

Truer words were never spoken. I truly believe that my son knows how much I love him and that I told him growing up a parent's love is unconditional. I think they are abusing that love and dedication. I don't think they realize that we may love them, but we may still never take them back, or ever be the same in our relationship with them. Change is constant, and when they are ready to change and be back in a loving parent/child relationship....I may not be.

anniebal

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magoo_2006

Hi Anniebal, you said..."once he met this girl, all reason went out the window". That makes me think of the crazy girl that my son married and I mean that literally. He told me once that she is just a female "HIM". I believe it. About 1 1/2 years ago my son had a near fatal car accident. Well, of course, we were estranged at the time but that bring us back together temporarily and he even recooperated at my house since his SO-CALLED wife didnt want him at their house. To make a long story short, she got mad at him and called a friend of his that lived 200 miles away and had NOT heard of the accident. She told this friend that my son (her husband) had DIED in the accident----all because she got mad, she mad up this vicious horrible story. They called my house a fews days later wanting to know when the funeral was!!! That is just one thing that she has done. She is completely irrational and a habitual liar!! That is just one thing that she has done. But anyone that will do that will do anything. AND he CANNOT see past her evil ways. He makes excuses for her and even lies to COVER UP her lies. It is a sick and dramatic relationship. I cant say that she made my son the way he is because he was abusive before he ever met her but I do think that she has just made things worse. None of my family likes her.

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anniebal

justgvup, how long have you been estranged from your daughter now? You mentioned you don't see your kids, does that mean all of them, and how many children do you have? HOw do they act when you call during the year? Are they friendly, talkative, cheerful, loving, etc?

Do your kids send you cards or call you?

What has happened to an entire generation of kids? When I say that, I don't literally mean the entire generation, but this is far too common to be a coincedance. I truly feel our kids were taught by society (i.e. teachers, society, parents) that they are the single most important person in the world. Everything revolved around the, frmo the beginning. My parents didn't have time to be running me around to all kinds of organized sports, school, or social events. If I couldn't get there, I didn't go. My mom didn't drive, and my dad worked 3 jobs at one time. Yet I loved my parnets dearly, was never disrespectful (other then some silly time during the teens years,) and had a wonderful relationship with them up til the day they died.

I never expected them to bow to me, like my estranged son seems to think I should be doing (or we.) It's one drama after the other, with constant rehashing of perceived hurts. It doesn't matter how many apologies there has been, it just goes on and on.

It does hurt, and that hurt doesn't got away. I think just as in the loss of my parents, I am moving on but at a much slower pace then when they passed away. My parents didn't choose to die, which is easier for me to accept. My son has chosen to do what he has done, and that hurts deeper then any natural or unatural death. It's the choice that drives the knife in so deep, because we know how much love there was and wonder how could they cut things off and be so cruel?

Sometimes it makes me think I should've just been the most neglectful parent on earth since the end result couldn't be any worse.

It's beyond comprehensiion, but it is something to do with how they were treated and raised as children. No last place teams, no c grades, no red marks on the report cards, nothing negative. Lots of praise whether they deserved it or not. It's as if they really believe they are the greatest thing that has ever walked the earth, that they are better then we are, and they convince themselves they deserve better then what we are giving them.

I wonder if some day they will be lonely? I can picture a deep, dark despair one day when they realize that they wasted the years their parents were alive by setting unrealistic expectations and demands of them. Despair so deep at realizing they can't get us back once we're gone, and they have no one to blame but the person they see inthe mirror. What a sad life that would be. I'd rather be dead then think of suffering like that over having wasted my life not seeing my parents due to my own selfish acts.

As it is, I realize how much more time I wish I had had with my parents and I saw them all the time.

anniebal

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anniebal

Magoo, I can't believe your dil made up a story that your son died!!! That is outrageous! What was she so mad at him about? How sick is that? So you were good enough for your son to stay with you and have you take care of him, but apparently nothing else. How long was he at your home re-cooperating? I say that that is outrageous, but I can see my dil doing the same thing (or saying the same thing.) My dil is an incredible liar, and like your son, mine either can't see through it, or elects not to see it.

That's very interesting that he said she is 'just a female him.' Since all this happened I have realized some of the narcistic traits my son has also. I guess I never thought of them as narcistic, just as a little self centered and demanding. I do believe that my dil magnified his negative qualities 10 fold or more.

I'm sure beyond a doubt that my dil lied last summer to us when we took them on vacation with us. I believe she may have even gone on the trip to speed up the separation between us and our son. It's hard to believe she had anything else in mind because she had been wedging a divide between us since they started dating. We were always apologizing for some greatly exagerated hurt we caused.

She came on our vacation, acted rude and withdrawn the entire trip, and when we finally called her on it, she tells my son it's because she thought she had a miscarriage! What a great excuse since no man would know whether that was true, they wouldn't have a clue. I even asked my son why she didn't tell him this before the end of the trip, before we confronted him on it, but I got no answer. He acted like he'd known all along but had just not shared the information with us. I knew differently tho since the night my hubby confronted him about his girls behavior, he made no mention of that 'fact.' Yet, he admitted to my hubby that he had noticed her 'quiet' behavior.

All the avenues that could have been taken if this was indeed something she was upset about, but she did nothing. When we ran into friends of theirs (we actually went out of our way so they could see their friends,) she lit up like a light bulb. All of a sudden she was the life of the party (with them, that is.) She talked and laughed, but the minute we left their friends, she was back into her mood.

Thankfully my younger son witnessed it all, and was furious.

You mention your son was abusive to his siblings, in what way?

Overall, I didn't like how my estranged son treated his younger brother growing up. It wasn't typical sibling rivalry, it was something more than that. Still, they do have a relationship as brothers but it isn't deep in the least, and my younger son is very leary of his brother's intentions.

anniebal

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jstgvup

Hi, anniebal...I wonder that myself..what has happened to our children that they would treat their parents this way? I'm not sure I know the answer. I would have to say the estrangement from my eldest daughter began when she was in her mid-teens and has only gotten progressively worse over the years to this most recent incident. As for my youngest daughter, it began about 18 years ago when I decided to speak to her about her questionable treatment of my then very young granddaughters...her response to my counseling of her was to forbid me to see them or her for several months. More recently, she refused to speak to me for over two years because of what she believed was favoritism I showed to her siblings long ago and which was true of her father, NOT of me. Now she is not communicating with me because of who knows why! As for my son, many times when I call he is unable to answer and rarely returns my calls. Most of the time when I call,I talk to a machine and if I chance to speak with one of them I either get open hostility,from my eldest daughter, or superficial responses from my other two, as if I was a distant, ill-favored relative. Occasionally, I do receive a Christmas card or maybe a birthday card from a couple of them and sometimes I even get a phone call from my son... On the whole, I guess I feel that any attempts they make to communicate with me is strained, obligatory. My grandchildren have basically grown up without knowing me or I them. I always felt that it was my fault that they feel the way they do about me...that I married the wrong man(he was verbally, emotionally, physically, and yes, sexually abusive to me, my eldest daughter,and verbally, emotionally abusive to my other two children..and I have my suspicions about them being subjected to some form of sexual abuse also) So maybe it is expected that they are alienated from me. This seems like a hopeless situation...I feel that I have done all that I can do to try and make amends, leave the door open for them, ask for forgiveness for any and everything I have done, may have done or what they may perceive I have done. I can do no more than that! My goal now is to try to move beyond all this.. but there are times I admit I find it impossible. And it makes it harder when I feel so guilty and ashamed because my children and I have such estranged relationships. What do you say when others ask about them and your grandchildren,etc.?? Then when someone posts some stuff about how they feel sorry for our adult children and how we must have been poor, unloving parents....well, I think that they are entitled to their opinion, but wish they would keep it to themselves. I think we all are hard enough on ourselves.

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magoo_2006

Anniebal, are you sure we dont have the same dils...LOL! Ill tell you more about mine later. I swear I could write a book on the both of them (son and dil) and all that they have done to each other and other people.
My son, J, recooperated at our house for about 6 months. Naturally, the minute I heard of his car accident, I pushed all the past aside and devoted my energy and time to make sure he got better. I wanted everything to be good between us for the first time since he was a little boy. Boy, did he take advantage of that, big time! He started being abusive, arrogant, bossy, manipulative, sarcastic, and destructive (his same old self) before long and made it known that EVERYTHING revolves around him and he is law. I wasnt to tell him what to do, his kids what to do and even his younger brothers (MY other kids) what to do. Long story short, I told him he had to leave and he snuck over here in the middle of the night the next night and put syrup in my gas tank. I had just bought this car and the only thing that I owned that he had not tore up already. Naturally, I drove all around, about 100 miles that day not knowing that syrup was mixed with my gas. It costs me $1500 and it being in the shop a month for me to get it back. I had to borrow the $1500 to get it, I was broke cause I just paid $5000 for the car. Im a single mom and not drawing any child support so that last little attack of his almost did me in. That was a year ago. He has not been back to my house since. Meanwhile, though, over this past winter he got into a fight over that bitty wife of his and stabbed a guy several times. He came real close to going to prison over that for many years but ended up on probation for 5 years so if he gets in any trouble he will go to prison. Therefore, the only way to get to me is through my other two boys and he is famous for doing that also.
The dil was mad at J because he threatened to call the law on her if she didnt give him his money back. What happened was when he got out of the hospital he had his last payroll check and it was $900. He gave it to her EVEN though they were seperated before the accident and apparantly still seperated. Anyway, the deal was she was suppose to give it back to him and she told him that she didnt have it anymore --- that she had given it to her brother!!! J was furious and gave her an ultimative and a specific time to have the money to him. Well, I think that she brought some of it back but not before having a big fight with him in my driveway. It was that night that she called his out-of-town friend and told him that J had died in a car accident. That is just one thing that she has done. She is ver cold hearted and NUTS!!
J is abusive towards his brothers several ways. He has borrowed money from them and dont pay them back, he has stolen from them, decieved them (for ex., they worked for J's boss for a few days doing some painting for him and instead of paying them after the work was completed the boss gave J their checkes a few days later. J cashed it and spent it. They never even saw the checks and only have Js word for it as to how much it was. Like his word means anything! These are a couple of young teenage boys that dont get much money and anytime they get any J takes it away from them in one way or another. Also, he lies to them about me and convince them of it just to drive a wedge between us. He always uses "We're BROS!" card to make them believe they have a special bond. These are good boys and I have taught them that family comes first so in a way I just made it easy for him (J). Also, J is 6'1", 190 lb. grown man and is 11 years older than my youngest son and 13 years older than my other one. So he has always been quite bigger and stronger. He wrestles with them and has physically hurt them so many times and called it "accidental" in the name of "playing around". To top it off, When my grandson was born, my other boys were only 6 & 7 years old so they were just young kids themselves. First of all, I could not tell my grandson "NO" to anything that was the RULES that J put down. I was not allowed to put him in a high chair. I was not allowed to teach him the rules of my house, there are NO rules for him, only for my 2 boys. All this according to J, because J ruled the house and all of us and if I tried to stick up for myself or the other boys then i would have to deal with his wrath. he was like a walking time bomb. J taught his son to disrespect me and if he talked mean to me, J waould just laugh. J taught his son to fight and use my other boys as a punching bag, they were not allowed to fight back. One time I couldnt hanfle it anymore. J cut the cord to my computer, punched a hole in the wall, broke out a window and cut my phone wires. People just wouldnt believe what all I have went through with him. I have went through hell and back. Do I want to have anything to do with him, hell no!! So do I feel guilty, NO WAY! I know that it was NOT me and my other 2 boys and I deserve better than that.

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anniebal

Wow, magoo you have really had a wild ride with your oldest son. You said you are a single mom, did all your boys have the same dad? Did you ever re-marry? Was their father involved with them at all? What was his temperment like?

I would be tempted to have a restraining order on your son because of his violent behavior. Is your son still married to the witchy girl? It sounds like they separated but did they divorce?

You know you mention how your boys have no rules in your home, but how your son has put all these rules down on your grandson. This is how I picture my son being once they have a child, which is in the plans now. I've heard from many relatives that they were going to start trying, and the timing fits in well with what he told me years ago also.

I feel like just as his love has been held ransom for his/her demands, even if he does come back into our lives that there will be an endless list of rules regarding his child. I'm not sure he'd be the one behind this, but he'd still go along with it, just as he has everything else his wife has done.

I don't know how it's possible that he allowed himself to be changed to fit her ideas. He was once a loving, sensitive boy who tho had his faults of course, they never amounted to something we couldn't reason with. I knew he was jealous of his bro growing up for various reasons, but nothing that wasn't able to be understood. I was very close to both he and my other son, we talked openly and did so many things together and as a family. My hubby was also very close to him, and then the dil came into the picture. She really was determined from the start to separate us, and brainwash him, and she did just that.

I doubt he'll ever see the light, and if something did happen now to his relationship with his wife, we'd be to blame. I could just hear his whining about how if we'd accepted her, if we didn't demand this or that (as if!) then everything would be ok. In otherwords if we would just keep kissing the ground she walks on we'd have a great relationship.

anniebal

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magoo_2006

Hey Anniebal, J has a different father than my other 2 boys. J never met his real father and maybe he resents me for that. I know that I have overlooked a lot of things he has done just because I felt guilty. I never spoke a harsh word about his father to him and only spoke of the good things. I think that was my first mistake. His father would not have been a good role model. He was a thief and a liar. he never abused me but he did manipulate me into believing he was something that he was not. I had just went through a bad divorce when I met him and was vulnerable. I got involved with him and found out later that he was married plus facing prison time. I found out I was pregant, I broke it off, moved away and never saw or heard from him again. When J was old enough to get curious about him, I tried to find him and found out that he had died in prison.
Ive never had what you could call a good relationship with any man and havent even tried to find one. I havent dated since my other boy's dad and I split up many, many years ago. he hasnt really had a very big part of their lives since. He may come around every once in a while and take them fishing. He is always in a lot of trouble too. So you could say it has been just me and my boys since they were born. I have devoted my life into my family (my kids), and making them a homelife.
J and her are divorced now. What is strange is that they didnt start living together until they got divorced.
On a brighter note, I started college 7 years ago this Jan. It was J's idea but as I look back, I think it was more of a sarcastic dig at me and my life. It backfired...LOL! I DID start attending college, just part time at first but the past few years, I have really taken it more seriously and started going full time. In Dec I will get my Bachelors Degree in Social Work. In Jan I will begin on my Masters Degree. In May, my yougest son will graduate from high school. My other son has already joined the navy and awaiting to be shipped out. So starting in May, I will put my resume out there and look to relocate. Once I get a job, my house goes up for sale and I am out of here, ready to start a new life. I may even start dating again...LOL! THis will be the first time in 31 years that I wasnt raising kids on my own. Plus Ill have a good job. I am so excited to start fresh somewhere else, away from all these bad memories and clear away from J. I encourage my youngest to get away from here too and start college somewhere. In fact, i am trying to get him to go with me. I dont know yet what he is going to do but I worry about him being here by himself around J.

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magoo_2006

I forgot to mention that I have put a restraining order on J before. At one time, he had 3 restraing orders on him. One from me, one from his wife, and one from my other son. he was threatening us all.
I know what you mean about your son being brainwashed by your dil. With my dil, she has control over him and influence over him. No one can get through to him but her and that is the way she likes. Unfortunately there is not much you can do. No matter what you say or do, you will always end up looking like the bad guy. In fact, the way that they are being brainwashed is the exact way that J brainwashes my other 2 kids. They WANT to believe the best in him and that is how he gets in and manipulates them. Just yesterday, I heard my youngest telling his friend on the phone how I wont let J back in the house because of something that happened so long ago, blah, blah, blah. Im gonna look like the bad guy no matter what because that is what J is putting in their heads and I cant change that. I have to listen to this crap because I cant get away from it...FOR NOW. But next summer a lot of things are gonna change...and poor little -dump-the-crap-on mom is going to grow a backbone and all they will see is my dust as I hit the road to freedom!!!!!!!! LOL!

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anniebal

WOW!!! Magoo that is wonderful about your degree! If I ever decide to go to college, that would be the field I'd pick. I've always loved social work, and I may actually take another class this fall to see if I have the gumption to do it. I don't even care abuot the bachelor degree since it would take me too long. The community college offers a certificate in many social service fields, and it take 1.5 years fast track. However, I wouldn't do the fast track since I think it would be too much for me, and I'd lose my drive.

It's amusing that J told you about going back to college (and you state it was probably a dig!) I could see my son telling me something like that for the same reason, and oh how sweet to show them you could and can do it.

Do the restraining orders expire after some time?

If I were you I would certainly let your other two boys know just how destructive J has been. I wouldn't let him brainwash your other sons into thinking this was about you alone which is what it sounds like he is doing. If they've been mistreated by J then they should have a good idea of just what he is capable of doing. That being said however, younger bros and sisters idolize their older siblings, and that is hard to shake even if J doesn't treat them well.

My youngest son always idolized his older brother, and would have done anything to be accepted by him. WHen they were under 10-12 years old, I'd say that my older son pretty much included his little brother. However, he was never as loving and generous to him as his little bro was back.

I hear the confidance in your post regarding your future, and that is so good!!! I'd get your other son to come with you and go to school from wherever you are living. I wouldn't leave him in the hands of J, that is if you can convince him of course.

anniebal

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lovespeace

jstgvup,
I was reading your post and can relate to a lot of what you said. I hesitate to write in detail about what goes on with my adult kids because I'm afraid they'll read it on here. I guess I'm paranoid. I have the same situation where a huge separation/estrangement will occur from just one minor little insignificant comment that I make. It will be entirely misunderstood, blown up all out of proportion, cause a huge amount of hostility, while I am left heartbroken and wondering, what did I do? How could this happen?. My husband was verbally and emotionally abusive to me and to them while they were growing up, and the only thing I can think of is that they were emotionally damaged early on (by the father) and continue to blame anyone and everyone for their unhappiness. Of course they lash out at the mom because we are the most loving & so they see us as the one they can dump it all on. I imagine they are this way to all the people in their lives--explosive, blaming, angry, hostile. And I really do believe that it all points to one person--the father; I think he is the cause of it all. But the one who probably suffers the most, I think, is the mom. You blame yourself for marrying the wrong man. But you shouldn't blame yourself. You did not intentionally cause all this. Think back on how hopeful and optimistic you were when you married him. Think how happy you were when your children were born, such high hopes. For me, I do remember how hard I tried all the years they were growing up, to fix things when he would shatter the peaceful loving environment that I was all the time trying to build. I just hoped they'd make it through ok and then when they were out on their own we'd have a good relationship. But then we get punished further when they are adults. It just makes you want to move thousands of miles away, because you feel so unloved, so unappreciated. Sadly, I want to just turn my back on this chapter of my life (having & raising kids) because it was such a failure, and start a new chapter far away from everyone else. I don't want to turn my back on my kids if they need me, but how can they need me when they are so hostile, blaming, angry?

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magoo_2006

yes, restraining orders do expire and the one I had on him has expired but if he gives me any trouble at all I will just get another one. He has a police record of violent criminal behavior so I wouldnt have any problems getting one. he has only alienated me but my whole family as well. All this is of his own doing.
My other 2 boys know that he has problems and have caught him in numerous lies but they would rather turn their backs on what he does than to lose him altogether. Therefore, he still has a hold on them and can even still make them believe his lies. It is all mind games to him.......manipulation and control....divide and conquer. he is a master at it and knows that his brothers still have faith in him. He USES that to his advantage. I KNOW him like a book and my eyes are no longer closed to what he does and is capable of doing. He NO longer controls me or can decieve me. He cannot hurt me emotionally anymore. It did take me a very, very long time to get here. I cried an ocean of tears and Im sure came close to a nervous breakdown several times. College helped and I went through some indvidual counseling and family counseling with my 2 youngest boys. That helped open my eyes. One thing my counselor told me is that I am NOT dealing with him any longer, I am dealing with the drugs. (Yes, he was and I guess still is on drugs.) And she also told me that I cannot sacrifice my other 2 boys for him. I cannot tell you how much those counseling sessions helped my boys and I. BUT as much as they helped at the time.....TIME is an enemy of mine right now. The more TIME passes, the more the younger boys want to forgive and forget. All that will do is bring that monster right back into our lives and our home to do even more damage. I cannot allow that to happen. I care too much for my other boys to do that to them or myself. You cannot imagine how much peace has been around here for the past year. The tension is gone and for the first time we can grow and bond as a family. I will NOT let go of that. BUT until I leave next year....TIME is gonna be my enemy. I wont forget what he has done but my other boys are already saying...."it has been so long ago, it is time to give him another chance...blah, blah, blah..." Yet, even now, I hear of things that he has said and done that reminds me of what he is and how he does...Im not going back there.

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jstgvup

lovespeace...Thanks for your encouraging words. I have recently discovered that I TRULY have lost my relationship with one of my daughters...I had confronted her about an activity of hers that was not only illegal but morally wrong..and ever since then she has been extremely verbally abusive and threatening towards me..telling me that she thinks something is wrong with me because I caught her red-handed! I never thought I would ever have to say that I cannot have anything more to do with her, but that is the way it has to be for now. She is hateful and vindictive. I am concerned for the welfare of my grandchildren and my great-granddaughter whom she is raising....and THAT is another situation where she manipulated events in such a way that she was able to gain physical custody of my ggdtr. I just can't believe she could've done this! It seems that each day I am finding out more things about her "activities" that could potentially land her in prison! I hate the way I have been feeling about her lately...so angry and disgusted with her behavior that I don't want anything to do with her anymore. I want to get to the place where I can not only forgive her for this latest incident but be able to work things out! Each time I have left messages on her phone telling her I still love her and want to talk..civilly, she calls me back with more of her hate-filled put-downs and tells me that there is something WRONG with ME! Well, I guess maybe she is right...there IS something wrong with me. It's WRONG when you give and give and get slapped in the face for doing so.

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anniebal

jstgvup, there is nothing wrong with you or any other mother who is thrown into this situation. We love our kids unconditionally and it does take a lot of being slapped in the face to walk away from them. If it was any easier, what kind of mom would we be?

Your daughter sounds so much like my dil. My son has started thinking and behaving like my dil, as if he has no mind of his own. He used to be sensitive and loving, even if he was hard headed, a bit self centered and broody. Still he could always be reasoned with before my dil. She has truly exacerbated all his negatives. He was not intolerant as he is now, we could talk to him and tho we may not agree, we could still put it to rest as agreeing to disagree.

I don't blame you for your feelings wanting to be through with her. Your anger and disgust are certainly warranted. I feel the same about my son. I am no longer after him, and I won't allow the drama anymore. I have actually cut off contact with him since I didn't reply to his last ranting email. If he needs me to tell him 247/7 that I still love him and want him back, then he has more big problems.

Your daughter accusing you of having something wrong is amusing. It must be their only way out when they are caught red handed. Do they not see the falseness of their words and actions? Do they bury the truth so deep that even they can't see it? Or perhaps they are so ashamed of themselves but can't summon the courage to change and admit fault. It takes a big person to admit they've made mistakes, accept responsibility for our actions and try to improve ourselves. My son is not capable of doing this now and perhaps never, who knows.

I wouldn't call her anymore since it is just the game she wants to play. Every time you call her it gives her a chance to put you down and you don't deserve this. Why give her an avenue to vent? Until my son can act respectful to us, and attempt to move past his intolerance for imperfection, we won't have a relationship. I won't allow him back in my life since under his current state of mind it is far more stressful to have him in my life then out.

My son told his bro that he thought there was something wrong with me. I liked my younger sons response to him. He told him that the only thing wrong with me is that her oldest son has alienated himself from her and she is beside herself with grief.

He must hit rock bottom on his own and see his own accoutability in this relationship since right now I believe he views himself as blamelss.

I forget how long you've said it's been with your daughter? It's too bad that she was able to get your great grand daughter, I don't blame you for being worried with her current mindset.

anniebal

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anniebal

jstgvup, there is nothing wrong with you or any other mother who is thrown into this situation. We love our kids unconditionally and it does take a lot of being slapped in the face to walk away from them. If it was any easier, what kind of mom would we be?

Your daughter sounds so much like my dil. My son has started thinking and behaving like my dil, as if he has no mind of his own. He used to be sensitive and loving, even if he was hard headed, a bit self centered and broody. Still he could always be reasoned with before my dil. She has truly exacerbated all his negatives. He was not intolerant as he is now, we could talk to him and tho we may not agree, we could still put it to rest as agreeing to disagree.

I don't blame you for your feelings wanting to be through with her. Your anger and disgust are certainly warranted. I feel the same about my son. I am no longer after him, and I won't allow the drama anymore. I have actually cut off contact with him since I didn't reply to his last ranting email. If he needs me to tell him 247/7 that I still love him and want him back, then he has more big problems.

Your daughter accusing you of having something wrong is amusing. It must be their only way out when they are caught red handed. Do they not see the falseness of their words and actions? Do they bury the truth so deep that even they can't see it? Or perhaps they are so ashamed of themselves but can't summon the courage to change and admit fault. It takes a big person to admit they've made mistakes, accept responsibility for our actions and try to improve ourselves. My son is not capable of doing this now and perhaps never, who knows.

I wouldn't call her anymore since it is just the game she wants to play. Every time you call her it gives her a chance to put you down and you don't deserve this. Why give her an avenue to vent? Until my son can act respectful to us, and attempt to move past his intolerance for imperfection, we won't have a relationship. I won't allow him back in my life since under his current state of mind it is far more stressful to have him in my life then out.

My son told his bro that he thought there was something wrong with me. I liked my younger sons response to him. He told him that the only thing wrong with me is that her oldest son has alienated himself from her and she is beside herself with grief.

He must hit rock bottom on his own and see his own accoutability in this relationship since right now I believe he views himself as blamelss.

I forget how long you've said it's been with your daughter? It's too bad that she was able to get your great grand daughter, I don't blame you for being worried with her current mindset.

anniebal

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shulamitedove

Hi all - I have been away from my computer for several days - down with a stomach virus but feeling better. Sometimes I suspect my stomach upsets are caused by stress - does anyone else suffer from that too? Also my blood pressure - it seems to go up when I'm under a lot of stress and it's hard to control.

Raven - how are you doing today? I'm (emotionally) doing better than I was. Thank you for your note to me. When you said that you don't like bringing religion into it, I agree - this isn't a 'religious' problem for the most part. But for me it kind of is because I'm married to a pastor - so all eyes are on me and on us and our family and how we handle things. We are the examples here. Unfortunately even preacher's kids have problems and sometimes more so. It's sad because the congregation expects us to be perfect. It seems like a double whammy when things go wrong - the criticism we get. We try to keep things confidential and private but people do find out things.

Our grandson Jacob used to come regularly on weekends and of course now he doesn't come at all. So...questions abound. I'm so fed up with it all. In fact I am going away for 2 weeks r & r starting tomorrow - by myself - and no one except my husband will know where I am. I'll have internet access so I'll check try and 'check in' on a daily basis.

I was reading the other posts and I'm appalled at what many of you have had to put up with. My daughter too forged my signature to get cable and utilities in an apt. that she had years ago. She also wrote a series of bad cheques. She told everyone her dad had died - he didn't. She stole all my savings bonds and tried to cash them in - got caught and the bank called me. Yada, yada, yada. You get the picture. And the beat goes on.

I'm glad we have a place we all can come to and share - a support group. Thank you all for your posts and hugs today to everyone.

Shulamitedove

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witchiepoo

hi ladies....

shulamitedove....i do suffer from just about all gastrointestinal disorders and i know some of the symptoms can and will re-emerge if i am feeling stressed. knowing that so well...i have learned over the years how to take care of myself as well as as trying not to put myself in stressful/anxiety filled situations/environments. it was a process but i think most everything is.

i understand from your post that your husband is a pastor. you also said "the congregation expects a lot out of you." that must put you under added pressure. i think a mature, enlighted human being knows that regardless of our position in life we all have our SHARE to contend with and we are all human. our lives are not perfect and as i have gotten older and wiser i no longer have to pretend that i am. in fact, i am honoured when another can be themselves, imperfect and flawed in my presence.

i am doing better since my last post and hope everyone else has been having some good days.

smiles...raven

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penbyrd

raven,

I too often suffer GI upset. My psychiatrist told me there is a direct correlation between the stress these estrangements cause and GI upset. Unfortunately, his answer was to decrease my stress levels. Easier said than done. I have just started with a hypnotist and hope this helps as I have been to multiple counselors, MFT's, Social WOrkers, Psychologists, Psychiatrists (at least 10 over the past 3-4 years)with no success. By the way also tried yoga, but really couldn't relax when I was supposed to. The brain just keeps thinking and won't shut down and the heart just keeps hurting----how to solve the problem, what did I do wrong, what can I do to make things right----I realize there is nothing I can do, but move forward---I just need to learn how to convince my heart/brain of it!

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magoo_2006

I also suffer from gastrointestinal disorders and from an ulcer. Even tough I have some inner peace now, this comes from years of stress and anxiety brought on mostly by him. Im hoping in time my insides will calm down.

Anniebal, jstgvup, and others....Like all abusers, everyone is to blame but them. J actually has all the symptoms of a psychopath (Blaming others, shows no remorse or guilt, lieing, manipulating, dependent on others for support, criminal activity, etc.). He has always told me that his problems was because I had him. Evrything ugly in this world that has happened to him is all my fault. What a crock!!!! He even went as far one time to tell me that all my brothers, my sister, my mother were all avoiding me because of my mental state. Something is terribly wrong with me because I cry all the time. (this was a double whammy, he gets to hurt me and at the same time puts me in a negative light with my other 2 sons). Yea, I cried all the time, my own son was abusing me plus turning my other 2 kids against me. I was living in the middle of all this and it about gave me a nervous breakdown. I think anyone would have been depressed over all this. Anyway, when the TRUTH came out, none of my family knew what in the world I was talking about when I asked them about that. This was about the time when a lot of things came out in the open. For example, none of my family knew that I had been abused all these years. I kept it to myself and closed my boundaries. (By the way, BIG MISTAKE, you ALWAYS need someone to confide in.) Since I had been abused for many years, I had low self esteem and this is how he could put just a shadow of doubt in my mind and convince me that he may be telling the truth. Plus, all my family lives so far apart and away from ea other so we dont see each other or communicate on a daily basis. This helped him put the doubt there, too. But the truth did come out and he had made the whole story up. He had fabricated this whole thing all the while telling me how bad a mother I was. he was yelling and screaming and I was hysterical!! My other 2 boys started backing him up and I was literally ambushed!!! Three big boys against me in my own home. I had no outlet from it. I felt trapped and alone. I was emotionally and mentally exhausted from living with all this day in and day out.

There was a time that I could not even talk about all of this but now I feel like I have kept inside for so long that it is a relief that I can now talk about it. I am just overflowing now....LOL!! I dont cry, I dont feel bad or embarrassed or depressed. I just sort of feel NUMB! Like I am talking about someone else's life/son and not my own. I dont know if that makes sense but I think that means I am getting over it. i know what I want out of life and I know what I dont want. I certainly dont want to live in that drama anymore.

I hope you all can someday feel that relief that I feel now. It is a START to a different life and it feels good. Of course, it is not over completely yet. He still has some control over my 2 youngest boys and they still live with me. So every once in a while I will get that guilt-trip "remark" from one of them, that little dig, but I shake it off and go on cause Im a good person and a good mother and I know it so I have nothing to feel guilty about. This is temporary, next summer I will be moving on.

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anniebal

shulamitedove, I can only imagine how difficult it is being in a family where the father is a pastor, and having your child behave like all of our have. People are judgemental, and cruel at times. It's just far too easy to grasp at the easy answer "oh it must be the parents." No one wants to think this could happen to them, we all want to believe that we're above such a thing. We think that our love and dedication to our families will weather any storm, how sad when we're slapped in the face with this reality. I think your r & r idea is wonderful, and hope you plan on really pampering yourself!

witchiepoo, penbyrd and magoo: I too suffer from gastrointestinal problems. I used to have irritable bowel, but since all this has happened the heartburn has been relentless. There are times I'd swear I was having a heart attack because the pain can be so severe from the acid. I've tried medications from the Dr. but none help. I have days where it is hardly there, and then days like the last few where it is terrible. It hurts up into my throat even, not burning either, it's like an ache. The therapist told me that this is quite common under stressful situations, however it's been 10 months now and it's getting old.

Penbyrd, the hypnotist is an interesting idea, please share your progress with that. I'm desperate for relif, but I doubt the aching heart will go away.

Magoo, I can't believe what you went through with J! I know just what you mean about the boys all sticking together. How hard that must have been on you, so hurtful. Men do seem to jump on a bandwagon with other men, don't they? I've had it happen to me having 3 men in the house (now 2.)

Someone to confide is essential. I've had people to talk to but it hasn't been very comforting. I guess when there is no answer and no real hope for one's situation to change that there can be little comfort.

I'm glad you seemed to have made it through the storm Magoo, and keep on going girl!

anniebal

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laurene1970

Hi All
The pain we all have or are enduring it just so heavy.
Bad day...I live alone which gives me time to dwell in my silence.......I'm feeling, sad, lonely, alienated and confused.
Perhaps I'll never know "Why or how " this happened. Even if my daughter and I ever talk again, the relationship is damaged and changed, I've lost emotional faith in her as a daughter and friend. For that matter as a caring, human being. She has broken the special bond I THOUGHT we shared. How sad. We were so very close or so I thought. Can't wait for my appt. w/counselor in 9 days. Counting and hoping for peace of mind.

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shulamitedove

Hi all - I'm off on my 'vacation' today. I'm so looing forward to getting away and the best thing about it - no one but my husband will know where I am. It must sound selfish a bit but I know I need this time to myself. It's good to retreat and regroup from time to time.

Laurene - my heart goes out to you! I know how it feels to lose faith in someone - it never truly comes back. And to feel lonely - even in the midst of a crowd. Living alone is hard too. You will be in my thoughts and prayers today. Just know - you are not alone. You have many of us who are going thru the same situation - I know it doesn't change things but I do know it helps knowing you are not alone in your circumstances. Often we feel as though we are - and we question why did this happen to me, what did I do wrong, etc. But our children make choices - and often they choose the wrong path for whatever reason and there is nothing we can do. My daughter has done the same thing - and I don't see my 2 grandsons anymore - the only ones I have - but I am working on getting over the hurt - grieving - working it all thru.

I am beginning to think my gastrointestinal problems must be a bit of IBS. It just doesn't seem to be going away.

I had better get myself dressed and ready to go. I'll be in touch later.

Shulamitedove

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garden60

Laurene1970 - your post just today is as if I had written it about my son. We were close and my dil caught it and made it her mission to close the door to anything he might want with his family. It is sad and like you say, I don't know if there is any trust left if we reconcile. Never in a million years did I think I would be here writing this today.

I have no answers. I am treating it sort of like a death and working on telling myself I will never see him again. It hurts too much to think "maybe someday...."

We need to take one day at a time and make each day count, remember your hobbies, friends, other family, etc. They are there for us and we are here for you and others like us suffering from estrangement.

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anniebal

Laurence, you stated:

"Even if my daughter and I ever talk again, the relationship is damaged and changed, I've lost emotional faith in her as a daughter and friend. For that matter as a caring, human being. She has broken the special bond I THOUGHT we shared."

Your words are SOooo true. Like garden60, I had a very close, loving relationship with my son or as you state also: "We were so very close or so I thought." I obviously believed I had that relationship with my son but now I wonder if it was really what I thought it was. Everyone tells me it was as I remember, that Tony was such a family guy and loved doing things with and for us. But just how can this be the same person?

I read recently that bi-polar as become the catch all for bad behavior, I do believe this is true. Everyone out there acting in this manner cannot be bi-polar. It appears they have become very shallow people, thinking only of themselves and their own happiness and putting everything else in their lives on a back burner. They want us to simmer so that we stay a little warm. This way if they ever want us back in their life they can waltz back in and we won't be cold.

How cruel.

anniebal

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witchiepoo

hi everyone...

laurene...how r u doing today? your last post said you were sad and lonely??? i hope a little better. there was a time when i was depressed i would alienate myself on a regular basis but had to stop that after their first initial couple days. i know u r trying to figure it out...as womyn that is sort of r nature...isn't it? DO SOMETHING POSITIVE FOR YOURSELF TO GET YOUR MIND OF IT...YOU DESERVE IT! either way they r your feelings and they are always okay.

hugs....to you.

shulamitedove....i hope you have a great vacation. enjoy your time away....i just luv that time and the quiet, as well. look forward to your return.

all we have is today and no control over anyone else. i think we can experience r loss on days along with r good days filled with friends, interests, hobbies, the little things in r lives that count that bring us joy.

....raven

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midnight_crescent

This is my first time writing in any forum. I'm not sure I'll be able to convey things properly and I'm feeling really fragile right now. In fact, I'm feeling extremely alone, and frightened of how desperately sad I'm feeling(you may read between the lines). I'm really about at the end of my rope. I guess this is a cry for help.

I'm broke, living in Florida (not by choice)at the Mercey of my dangerously abusive, wealthy, manipulative, controlling and obsessive parents and I'm 48 years old. Further, I have not heard from my, soon to be, 23 year old daughter in 5 years. I raised her by myself since she was 11 months old after my abusive husband abandoned us and ran back to England.

I grew up in Long Island, NY. My life has been an endless string of abusive relationships(physically, mentally or both) and repeated abandonments in one way or other since I can remember. Love, committment or loyalty from family, friends or lovers were not in my cards. So today, as I write this, I am ironically alone with the exception of my much abusive parents (who also in Florida, though, not with me thank G-d).
How I got here is an unbelievable story to tell and largely responsible for the isolation I'm experiencing and sense of hopelessness I feel. My situation involves stalking, by what at first seemed to be only coming from an ex-boyfriend who I got an order of protection against in 1998, which led to repeated evidence that my parents may have been in some way involved the whole time. My parents are also very connected as well as wealthy and sick(though they appear convincingly sane to the world, mind you). Before I met my ex-boyfriend/stalker, my parents (with the help of my also abusive, crazy, unmarried, childless, Attorney sister)had already done a version of the own stalking which involved various illegal activities, and plots to get my daughter by any means, including trying to get me to be suicidal as well as an elaborate kidnapping plot if they failed at the first. I found evidence of this, which I say, in their home, in the form of a file with my name on it in my father's handwriting.

Needless to say, it would not be far fetched for them to have been involved in the stalking situation. And no one stood to gain more than them in obtaining control over me and my daughter financially and in every other way.

The stalking situation was done insiduously and underneath the radar, so to speak, but resulted in mysterious job firings, character assaults, harrassments by landlord after landlord, repeated vandalizations and robberies, sudden and unexplained abandonments by so-called friends, and the list goes on, believe me, to a level so terrifying you wouldn't want to know, with the worst part coming from the Police and Courts who were supposed to help me.

Florida did not change the stalking situation nor did my daughters betrayal and estrangement of me. My parent's have not won, I guess, because I'm still alive. But they are also not finished with me, because of this.

I can't take the pain of all of this on top of the loss of my daughter. It feels too much to bare and hopeless. My daughter has become like my parents and decided which side her bread was buttered on. It hurts to know her lack of love, respect, or attachment to me. There's too much pain to bare alone and I feel so hopeless to change things any longer. Believe me I've tried and every attempt I make to try to better my life and break away from my parents clutches is sabatoged. I don't know what more to say.

midnight_crescent

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midnight_crescent

I don't mean to appear selfish, if I do, nor oblivious to the pain all of you are going through with your losses. I've read most of your stories and my heart goes out to all of you. We so much understand each others pain and loss like nobody else can.

I've even seen, in many of your stories, the theme of an ex-husband or other person poisoning and manipulating your child and even the system. I know you understand what that feels like, and how helpless one can be when, unwittingly, falling victim to the deviousness and hateful determination of another. And, I know that you know what it's like to be labeled or blamed for your circumstances and loss as many people assume, even if their not saying it, you must have done something to make your child stay away from you. This leaves one feeling just torn apart with shame and guilt they probably don't deserve to feel in the first place.

How helpful and merciful it is to just have kind friends who understand and care and let you know your not alone. Who also don't blame you or treat you like you're pathetic but instead uplift you and let you know how special and beautiful you are.

I'm sorry for the moroseness of my messages (particularly, the first) as well as Typo's, mind you. I know I may have scared you with the seriousness of the tone in my first message. I won't lie, I had just been mentally beaten the sh_t out of by my parents and other, so-called friends, in the worst way and was not doing so good. My parents almost had me there.

Well, I'm a little better for writing this, so I'm okay right now, even though I'm a bit worried of what you all may think of me by the overwhelming things I wrote. As I've said, I'm very fragile at this time and I'm not at all versed in writing these things. Though, I've written an awful lot here, so it seems I'm making up for that. I'm also not nuts or paranoid nor an abusive mother or one who's trying to make elaborate off-the-wall excuses. Traumatized definitely, crazy, not. My story is too real, unfortunately. Trust me, I've always been a very proud and independent person financially and otherwise (been living on my own since 18 years old) and, if anything, an over-achiever, as well as a darn good mother who loved/s her daughter with all her heart. I had to, unfortunately, raise her with unbelievable interference and emotional handycaps. Under the circumstances, I feel I did an exceptional job as, I believe, most of you have done.

My prayers to you all. Thanks for allowing me to share.

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jstgvup

midnight crescent....Thanks for sharing your experiences on this forum. I am so sorry that you are having to go through all of that loss and betrayal...it is certainly understandable for you to sound "fragile"! My goodness, how else were you supposed to sound?! I know that it is hard when you feel like everything is against you and when it appears that the very people that are supposed to be there to help you and protect you aren't. Somewhere deep down inside of you is a very strong person to have survived all of this for all these years. Don't give up on yourself! There are people that understand and can help you through this. Keep posting!

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midnight_crescent

jstgvup...Thank you for your kindness and supportive words. Though I intended to respond sooner, my gratitude to you for making me feel understood with compassion instead of judged and not so alone is felt wholeheartedly nonetheless.

I read your posts and identify with many things you wrote. You, too, are a strong person who has suffered too much. You've been abused enough by your ex-husband. You don't need to be crucified for the rest of your life by your kids for whatever shortcomings they think you had as a mother. Abuse can blind us and be amazingly insiduous. Its effect on us, especially when it's done by someone we love who we vowed to share our life with, is extremely complex. And like you said, you went into that marriage with high hopes and dreams. You didn't say to yourself..."Oh, I think I'll marry this one so he can make my life, and that of our children, hell."

I say these words to you, while at the same time saying them to myself, as I've struggled with the same feelings of guilt. I've said to myself..."If I hadn't married an abusive man who deserted us, leaving my daughter, at 11 months old, fatherless and siblingless, if I only could have afforded a big house and had lots of money like her friends parents, if I only had realized that the older, handsome federal agent that pursued, romanced me and proposed to me at Andrews Airforce Base(btw, broke off the engagement after he broke my ribs) was a sick, manipulative, sociopathic abuser, if I had only been strong and smart enough, after repeated abuse throughout my life from my parents not to mention their attempted kidnapping scheme done with the help of my sister in the wake of my broken engagement, then maybe I wouldn't have fell for the guy who ended up being crazy and stalking me/us, etc. etc."

Believe me, my daughter played the guilt card well mind you. She knew how to wrap me around her finger. Though I couldn't afford it, I got her a cat and dog because she whined how I didn't give her a sibling. I dressed in practically rags so that she would have nice clothes, I danced for a living so we could get off welfare and so I could go back to school while spending every spare minute when I wasn't working, studying or in school with her, I risked my life many times in those clubs and faced condemnation for what I had to do to give my daughter a better life (fyi, I strictly danced, never prostituted, though I don't condemn anyone who has), I became a Licensed Practical Nurse and Stockbroker with Series 7, 63 and 65 licenses and NYS Life and Health Insurance and Annuities Licences by the time my daughter reached the age of 11 years old, in the midst of all the abuse and craziness I was being put through. A schluff or lazy I wasn't. I never did drugs in my life, I didn't drink and, believe it or not, didn't really begin smoking cigarettes till I was stalked (which I quit 3 and a half years ago and since became a certified personal trainer and triathlete, a volunteer firefighter and EMT as well as part-time, professional singer and musician, which I did before I got married for fun). The decision to have to dance and the price I paid, in so many ways, was the ultimate sacrifice of love. I was the most conservative and unlikeliest candidate you ever met to strip for a living! My experiences for that alone, I should write a book!

I am most tortured wondering if the ex-fiancee and/or ex-boyfriend/stalker did anything to my daughter that may explain some of her behavior and hatred toward me. I've danced with many girls who had been molested by their mothers husbands or boyfriends. They did, often demonstrate very low-self esteem and exagerated promoscuity perhaps, but I never knew one of them to estrange themselves from their mother's or express such hatred.

I wish I had the answers or understood. If something happened to my daughter, I was unaware. Was she subjected to seeing her mother abused and miserable, yes, and guess what, she even got to see me feeling pretty suicidal too. Well, who wouldn't be! And, I will now add, that I've also worked with many dancers, and for that matter non-dancers, who's mother's had been abused, suicidal and even severe alcoholics and they STILL never hated or estranged themselves from there mothers!

So what does this tell us?

Maybe our kids need to grow up and show a little compassion, gratitude, loyalty and respect.

I sometimes wonder if my worst failing as a mother was to allow this ungrateful, heartless brat of mine to manipulate, guilt, intimidate and railroad right over me! I'd like to see how well she'd fair and do as a mother under the same conditions!

In summation, I think you're right to expect to be treated with respect and honour as their mother. You're a beautiful person and it's obvious how much you love your family. Though it's not easy, let's try not to let them guilt us to death and learn to forgive ourselves, since I know we never meant in anyway to harm our kids or make the mistakes we did.

Peace, midnight_crescent

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laurene1970

HI Again,
Haven't been able to bring myself to write lately. Very confused. I went to a counselor who told me that I am only responsible for my thoughts and actions and my daughter for hers. However, she also said "SO WHAT" if my daughter acted rude or didn't talk to me. No one can change another person and I just have to email my daughter to tell her I miss her and love her. The counselor said then my daughter will either contact me or not, but I need to show her love and support and wait patiently because after all I AM THE MOTHER and she may be emotionally immature like an adolescent. I still think she needs to be accountable for the hurts she has caused me. My counselor says "NO". It's not important because she doesn't mean to act this way. WHAT ABOUT ME AND MY FEELINGS?"
Please someone help me out. I am so confused.

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penbyrd

From everything I have read and researched, the choice is if you want the relationship, be kind and loving from your heart and your feelings just don't matter(to her) if you want any kind of relationship. If she acts emotionally immature you have to decide if you want a relationship with this person as she is or no realtionship at all.

Its a tough decisions. One I didn't have a chance to make. DS just cut himself off cold turkey over 3 years ago--only communicates rude , unkind things through his GF. I finally blocked her emails,calls as didn't seem as though he was getting the info and she was just outright rude.

I have an emotionally immature, lying mother and have made a decision to not call her. We are not totally estranged and she can call me whenever she wants, but rarely does unless she needs something no one else can provide---I am at the bottom of her list--have been my whole life. I don't want to pretend---or maybe I am just not able to pretend that she is not a backstabbing liar and always has treated me like crap. I am her daughter and just don't think you can change people either they love you or they don't and realize I can't change her or my DS----I can only control my self and be kind. They actually both became became mean to me the one time I got sick and needed them as in the past I was always the strong one who helped them. I guess it is true you know if love is unconditional when there are reough times and someone sticks by your side or runs. Both mother and DS ran and I would have given my lofe for either---not so sure anymore.

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shulamitedove

Hi all - I'm back from my 2-week vacation. Unfortunately I was sick most of the time - somehow I managed to get pneumonia! I knew my immune system was down before I left - didn't feel too hot - but thought time away would heal it. I never realized how sick I was. However, even with being sick it was good to be away - had access to medical care and someone who was able to help out so it wasn't totally bad. The best part was no one from home knew where I was. I'm still on the mend - but the good news is the worst is over.

Laurene I read your message about what your counselor told you. I disagree - I'm sure he/she hasn't had to go thru what we have. Where's tough love in this? I talked to my counselor about my situation and she was supportive - told me if I allow my daughter (or anyone else for that matter) to 'abuse' me then I'm part of the abuse cycle and I'm enabling her. It never stops then. I'm sure you have let your daughter know in many ways that you do love her - otherwise if you didn't you wouldn't care enough to be talking about it.

We have to break it. There is a good book 'Toxic Parents' that you might want to read. It talks about parents who are abusive and controlling but it can apply the other way around. It helped me tremendously. Just reverse the roles in the book - it also gives you steps to take to break the cycle. We are enablers when we allow our children to abuse or contol us.

Yes, we love them. We gave them life. But we also have a right to a decent life and to not allow someone else, no matter who it is - and that includes family - to hurt us or control us.

Let me ask you this? Is your daughter the one in counselling or are you? There is a reason why we as parents have to go to a counselor - you can remind your counselor of that. Perhaps it's time to look for a new one. I hope I'm not offending you but I feel for you right now - just know that you have someone out here who does understand and is on your side.

Shulamitedove

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midnight_crescent

Hi everyone...I have something that I feel I really must say here.

On August 9th, I introduced myself onto this site. I had never blogged before. I'm not a computer person. I always felt it to be impersonal and too easy to hide behind.

But, because of the isolation and stigma attached to a child's estrangement, it seemed the only place left to go to seek comfort and support from others who truly understood. Unfortunately, there are no support groups that I've been able to find in both Long Island (where I used to live) and Florida (where I live now). There are many bereavement groups, but none for child estrangement nor for stalking, as in my case. In fact, the amount of ignorance by the Psychiatric community (not to mention, public at large) is staggering on both subjects.

Given this said, it has been a long lonely haul for me since I've had to deal enormous devastation and trauma without any help or show of compassion on both fronts. In fact, I've had to deal, even worse, with cruel ignoramouses who have told me stupid things like..."Oh, have you read the 'Secret'...you must be putting out negative energy and therefore caused these terrible things to happen"...or "Oh, you've been stalked, are you on any medication for your paranoia"..."oh, your daughter doesn't talk to you, what did you do to make her so angry...you know she's an adult and has her own mind now"..."oh, your parents have abused you, we'll you must have done something to dissappoint them and make them angry"...and so on. Got the picture?

Getting back to the point I wanted to make here...

On August 9th, I was as close as one could ever get to being at wits end (I'm sure you know what I'm talking about). I reached out in desperation to the people on this site for some show of compassion as I felt frightened of the state of mind I reached on that day. Only one person acknowledged me at all and responded back with compassion and kind words. Thank G-d, for someone like jstvup. As for the rest of you, you ought to be ashamed!

If we had been face to face as one would be in a support group, it would be unthinkable to not welcome a new member and show some sign of caring. It's so easy to hide behind a computer isn't it, not to mention, cold and cowardly at that.

Thanks to all, but one of you, for adding to the desperate sense of aloneness that propagated me to reach out in the first place. Could you all be that self-centered or is this a click I stepped into where I didn't make the grade?!

midnight_crescent


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penbyrd

midnight cresant,

I don't think it is that others on this site do not care about your story or your desparation, it is that they too are dealing with the same or similiar crisis at the same time and may not be in a position to help you as they don't even know how to help themselves. I being one of them. I feel for you and your situation and pray things will get better for you. I have written posts on this thread and many others--at times a person responds or I feel able to respond to someone and reach out to help from my experiences. Remember this is a forum for estranged mothers----we are not paid or trained counselors. I find at times it is just nice to read others stories to not feel so alone. I appreciate what advice and thoughtfulness I get, but also try to understand that these people are facing the same challenges I am. The day I read your particular post---I did feel for you and want to reach out, it was not that I didn't care, I simple had so much pain in my own heart that I didn't have the strenght or feel I could be of much help to you as on that particular day, I was quite depressed and cried all day---to be honest I am that way most days. I do feel for you and wish I could help, but I also struggle with the same issues and unfortuately have not found a way to deal with them as of yet. Since I am still so angry at both my DS and Mother for reasons similiar to yours---my email to you probably would have been quite discouraging as I have yet to oversome these obstacles in my life---I have yet to move on---I have basically wasted at least 3 years of my life as a worthless, depressed person. I hope you understand this and realize that my lack of response was not due to not caring as I do care and do relate, I just don't have what it takes to make someone else feel better--I wish I did. Maybe others feel the same way.

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witchiepoo

good evening...

i have been away and under the weather in more ways than one. it feels good to be back here posting.

we teach others how to treat us. personally...i think we can still luv our estranged children, keep our doors open and live in a mode of grace. having said that....if they behave in a way that is abusive ....we can choose to not participate.

there will always be others ....professionals included...that will have opinions that differ from ours or theirs. i think we all have to do what feels right for us. if we behave or act in that matter and it doesn't work out...it may at another time OR NOT.

in the meanwhile...keeping luving yourself...raven

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midnight_crescent

penbyrd,

I'm sorry for your pain, but I think you missed the point.

To begin with, to write (as if you speak for everyone)..."We are not paid or trained counselors", is extremely condescending. Who said I expected you were!

I'm no different than anyone else on this sight, reaching out for support and sharing from those who understand and know how isolating and painful estrangement can be.

Secondly, you just responded with no problem to someone else today before I ever wrote that last message, huh?

My gaud, I reached out, in desperation and that you ignored? And then you write this? Why write back anything to me if you're going to insult me this way.

Perhaps, relationships, in general, might not be so messed-up, if people knew how to step out of their crap for a minute and give a moment of kindness to someone else who urgently needs it. They might even find by doing so, it comes back to them in ten-fold when they are in the same position.

Btw, would you tell a friend who's seeking comfort from you..."Sorry, I can't help you, I'm too upset myself and I'm not a shrink"? Well, I wouldn't want a friend like you if you did, because that wouldn't be a friend at all.

Well, it's a sad a statement when one goes to a support site to get the same speech. After all, this is a SUPPORT sharing and discussion site last time I checked. At least, it says it is.

Just so you all know, the words..."Hello and WELCOME...we care", would have taken but a minute and would have satisfied me just fine. But, it seems I'm asking too much here, huh? Now you suggest I should pay someone to say it, like a therapist!

What a world we live in...G-d help us all!

midnight_crescent

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kaynsd

midnight -
you seem to be throwing stones. no one owes you any explanation as to why they didn't respond. but penbyrd gave you one and you dumped all over it. people spend time on this site for whatever reason they have.

sweety, read your first message, i did and i saw, kidnapping, stalking, suicidal, kidnapping, police, mysterious, sabatoge, 48yrs and living w/wealthy abusive parents and i went wooooooooaaaaa. i was speechless. sorry i didn't respond either. that's way out of my league.

and you are criticizing some poor mom who's child has rejected her. who's treating who crappy?

you're pointing your finger at her for not helping you out? wow, this is a website blog with a bunch of strangers on it. it's not a hotline. and yes, we are not paid counselors.

penbyrd... i hope you don't take midnights rant to heart. you clearly have enough going on and deserve support not criticism. i think this midnight was being hurtful - and to a perfect stranger no less. who actually did reach out . you've got enough crap going on. be strong. this sounds like stupid stuff, but my only advise is to keep moving forward and 1) stop blaming yourself about your ds and 2) there is life outside of parenting - go and live your life

it's all good.

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anniebal

midnight crescent, I find your posts a bit hostile, and I"m not sure why, or where it's coming from? People here don't want to be lectured that we are lacking in sensitivity
because we chose not to respond to your post. It had nothing to do with being in a click, or anything else that paranoid.

I read your post, and read the follow ups as well and simply felt i had nothing more to contribute than what had already been stated. I could've repeated the same advice, but what's the point? If I'd read a response to your post that I didn't agree with I certainly would have chimed in (as I'm doing now.)

I don't agree with you attacking penbyrd, and I think you are taking your anger out in places that it doesn't belong. We're all hurt and angry, and we don't need someone else besides our family members who have hurt us jumping down are throat, because we didn't live up to 'your' expectation of us.

How is "we are not trained counselors" condescending exactly? What Penbyrd said was truer then true, please elaborate on your comment. Most of us are not trained and are learning as we go through no choice of our own. Where does your comment come from "who said I expected you were?" I'm sorry but that is just unnecessary.

You know I doubt anyone of us would tell a friend that 'I can't help you right now because I'm too upset myself,' yet many of us would feel terrible after talking to a friend who was so miserable. Add that misery on top of the indescriable pain we are already going through and one could seriously push themselves over the edge.

However, this sight is not our close friends, it is a support system. We don't have to come here and shouldn't feel guilty for not responding because we feel too bad ourselves, but I can see that choice for what it really is, and that is survival.

Please, you really need to get off your soapbox and quit being so dramatic. Whenever I've posted anywhere, I never get a response from every poster on the forum. A few respond one time, another few respond the next, and I've never once thought that was because the other people didn't care. We chime in when we feel we can and should, but we don't comment on every single post or we'd have no time to do anything else.

How sad that you feel you needed to come here and jump down our throats and especially penbyrds. It makes me question to some degree what your expecting in your other relationships.

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uponreflection

My first reaction to reading midnight crescent's first two posts was "this is too much to address."

Then I looked at the times of the posts and noticed there were 65 SECONDS between posts which said to me that the writer had composed them and then copied and pasted them on the forum. That told me that she was being manipulative.

Her further posts have only served to reinforce that belief.

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anniebal

uponreflection, interesting discovery re midnight crescent. I feel that her post was very manipulative, very much like the behavior our family member has done to us (and does.) I don't need anyone coming here and laying guilt trips on because I didn't live up to their standards. I do what I can and so does everyone else here, and to expect anymore is just wrong. The way she went on, you would have thought penbyrd told her she didn't deserve support.

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penbyrd

midnight cresant,

I am sorry you were offended by my words. I actually responded because I felt bad that you did not feel you got the support you needed from this site and I felt partly responsible by my lack of response. I just wasn't able to respond at the time as I was feeling overwhelmed and did not want to give you a discouraging response as I am currently very angry at the estrangers in my life. I respond or write when and if I am able, as my depression, anxiety limit my ability to function (not just writing, but simple everyday tasks), but I do want to share or help when I feel I am able. My ability to handle the sadness/hurt/anger in my life changes from day to day, even minute to minute. I do seek help from a therapist and have attempted suicide since the estrangements in my life have occurred.

You know how on an airplane how they say to put your own oxygen mask on first before assisting others, well I guess that was my point. I just didn't want you to feel so alone and hoped it might help you to think that many people on this site may not have had their own oxygen mask on at the time you posted. Or in my case, there are times I am able to put my oxygen mask on and times when I can't.

I did not mean to speak on behalf of everyone on this site as I can only speak for myself, but really meant for my post to be an apology for my not responding to your initial posts and to let you know that I do care, but am not/was not in a position to respond appropriately to you. I wish I was.

You are right I do not know if people on this site are trained counselors or therapists and for that I am sorry--I was under the impression, maybe incorrectly, that this forum was for ordinary people to share similiar experiences.

Anyway, I am sorry if I offended you and I do wish you the best and I truly do understand the pain involved with estrangements and how awful you must feel. My thoughts and prayers are with you.

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witchiepoo

today is a hard day. my last and youngest daughter is leaving for college. i truly am an empty nester. as expected....a loss triggers previous losses...which is the loss of my 2 older children. as we all know...it's not something you ever get over. however...it really wasn't till a couple months ago where my oldest grandaughter was angry in an email she sent me. i won't go into the details here but it was the first time ever where i could tell she has been told things from her mother which has made her angry at me. this had not happened before. i know now her mother has said some things in some manner to make her feel this way. it breaks my heart. today is sad and days like this are painful and full of sadness for me.

i am thinking if she writes me again and communicates some hostility or anger towards me i will speak up and ask her why haven't i been asked to participate in her life...why haven't i received a birthday card, or an invitation to a holiday dinner...or ever been even once invited to a school event?

the pain and loss just so hurts sometimes.

my life is changing once again and wonder what life has in store for me in the next 5 years.

smiles to all....raven

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anniebal

raven, please forgive my not remembering or knowing, but you are estranged from your daughter? It is your daughter who won't let you see your granddaughter, or is telling your granddaughter lies about you? Did you have a relationship before with your granddaughter?

I would definitely ask the questions your considering. She needs to know you care and were hurt that you weren't more involved in her life AND that it wasn't your choice.

I am sad for you with your youngest daughter leaving. It hurts so much to have them go. Who could imagine they would grow up so quickly, time truly does fly. Still, she is gone but not forgotten and she will miss you too. How does she get along with your other children?

Is your youngest going far away to college, or is it something you can make within a reasonable amount of time?
Hopefully it's not so far that you can't see her on week ends or holidays.

Be happy, you deserve it.

anniebal

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midnight_crescent

penbyrd,

I thought I'd never look back at this site again. Yet, something told me to look once more. For some reason, I had the feeling there was a message I was supposed to read.

Well, I'm glad it I did. What a beautiful message you wrote. It took alot for you to do that, despite the way things left off. It seems like our wires have been crossing, so to speak, even still just a little. The only thing left to clarify is the point about the trained counselor/therapist part. I knew this support/discussion site did not have trained counselors. I was not looking for that here. I was trying to connect and both give and recieve support from other mothers who have been going through the same confusing, isolating and devastating loss as I have.

I admire the sensitivity, concern and openess you've just shown, particularly in your last letter to me. Thank you. And I'm sorry for coming down so harsh on you in expressing my feelings. The therapist part hit a very sensitive nerve because on my last Birthday, someone who was supposed to be a good friend, kicked the heck out of me when I was down (on my Birthday, no less!)and left the most condescending, dear jane message you could ever imagine. He used the words..."I'm not a telephone counselor, but I can be your friend in my heart even though we may never speak again", i.e. don't expect to hear from me anytime soon. This was less than four months after I moved back to Florida. I arrived in January to everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, going bizarrely wrong. It wasn't long before I found my self broke, unable to obtain work in a place that has one of the worst economies in the nation and was facing the prospect of imminent homelessness immediately after my March Birthday. Btw, this, so called, friend had been laid off from his job and hadn't worked in almost a year. I had been very supportive to him throughout his ordeal. Yet he, amazingly, critisized and knocked me on my new employment delemna with the above speech in response for my asking for the same emotional courtesy and encouragement as I gave him while he was down and out. So, I hope you can see how I was especially sensitive on the 'therapist' part.

As you mentioned in one of your prior posts, about unconditional love and people sticking by your side during the tough times; how hard it seems to find that anymore. I found out through the hard times, sadly, just how shallow friends could be. Like they say, if you have one good friend in your lifetime, you're very lucky. It seems to be true, at least for me.

I've read a bit of your posts, though I've been having trouble translating some of the acrynomyms, i.e. I'm not sure what DS stands for exactly, etc. I see you've been through enormous pain yourself and I'm so sorry for what you've been going through and I'm also sorry if I upset you with my posts. I know what it's like to be brought to the point of wanting to take your own life as I was feeling that way when I wrote my first blog. That's why it added to my intense sense of aloneness when I got only one response to my desperately plea for kindness in a forum which professes to be caring and supportive. Though, I will say, the one response I did get was wonderful and meant very much to me.

As for the hateful comments that were directed at me by some others on this site, they were twisted, viscious, presumptious, and Junior High like. That's all I'll say on that subject, as they do not deserve any more attention than that.

Tomorrow morning, I have a big decision to make and that is whether to drive almost 1400 miles up to NY to compete in the same Triathlon I've done for the past 2 years. It means alot to me as its symbolizes, whenever I see my medals on my perfume tray, that no matter how bad things get, I'm still strong and nothing will ever break my spirit. This has also weighed heavily on my mind as I've gained over ten pounds since my move, have not worked out at all and am also broke and would have to charge the gas and sleep in my car to do it, then have hell to pay when my parents find out as I'm at their financially mercy, which kills me. I also admit, that I'm terribly home sick for the beauty of where I used to live in Long Island and want so desperately to go back. The nature there is breathtaking and I feel so much at peace when I walk through the woods or along the shore. It's like being nurished spiritually to me. In Florida there's been none of that and it's essential to who I am. I know it would be crazy to go tomorrow, so we'll see.

Anyway, I do pray for your happiness and your family to be reunited. You appear to have a truly good heart and I really wish this for you as I wish this for all of us.

Goodnight,
midnight_crescent

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jstgvup

midnight-crescent... I am glad I was able to be there for you. It is so easy to feel isolated and alone when going through a heartbreaking situation...sometimes it is hard to believe that anyone can understand exactly what you are experiencing...but after reading these posts, I am sure you will agree that we all have been through differing but similar situations. Like someone mentioned,sometimes we can either not know how to respond or be at such a low point ourselves that we are unable to respond sympathetically. I think that though this "thread" is very helpful it is not the same as having someone there in person to talk to that has experienced an estrangement, someone that can give you a much-needed hug,etc.;also that, as in up-close-and-personal contacts, we can sometimes misunderstand each other. I hope you will continue to feel you are welcome on this site and will continue to post. Just take what support that IS there for you and let whatever isn't there go. I was reading an article the other day on "letting go" and one of the tid-bits of wisdom was "Let go or be dragged", which for me spoke volumes as I have often felt dragged around in life by other peoples choices. The good news is I don't have to be if I will choose to let go. Peace and Blessings.

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witchiepoo

hello everyone....

anniebal, thank you for your support. i have been gone 3 days moving my youngest daughter up to penn state (main campus). now that she is 4 hrs. away she will only be home for a major holiday. it is my oldest daughter and son (they each have children) that i am estranged from. it has been almost 20 yrs of on and off again estrangement...mostly off as the years have gone on. because of that my relationship with my 3 grandchildren is very infrequent and my other son (none at all).

it's funny about losses...because when you experience another loss it brings up past ones.

my youngest daughter who is up at penn state has had no relationship with my 2 oldest children. they really never wanted anything to do with her. basically she was shunned by them. she is turning 21 yrs. in december and has never received a birthday or christmas card...NO CONTACT. i have always felt so bad for her. so she grew up an only child and i can tell she has always been lonely. i know their issue or atleast part of it with her is all jealously.

anyway...that is a little of my story. with her being gone it just leaves this big empty space that feels like a big black hole. i am sure all of you know the feeling. it's a loneliness...a void. sometimes it's just all consuming.

tomorrow will be another day.

it is not easy for me to type what i am thinking. some of you are so good at it...i feel like i know u because of your wording. but pen and the written word is not my forte.

either way i knew i could come here this evening and share.

in luv & light...raven

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heartbrke

I am new here so bear with me... I have two sons who both have wifes that are manipulative and abusive. I was married to their alcoholic father and abusive for 18 years of my life. And my sons both live here in the same town as I and don't hear from or see them and haven't in months.. My oldest son's wife I tried to be like a mother to her. And also I never got involved in their relationships ever... But I have read in this forum so many that are in the same boat or simular helps me feel I am not alone.

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witchiepoo

dear heartbrke...

yes...you are NOT ALONE. i remember finding this forum for the first time. my girlfriend suggested the idea and it has provided me comfort. just yesterday...i was feeling down and knew i could come hear to post. sometimes it's easier to post than to call a friend. none of my friends have experienced this kind of loss. having said that...i feel safe and understood here.

keep posting...

smiles....raven

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anniebal

witchipoo, I am so sad for you and I know the emptiness you describe all to well. My youngest son has lived home since college and just recently moved out. He isn't far away, yet it was so hard to have him go and I think especially so because of the situation with his brother.

Is there a big age gap (which it sounds like,) between your two older children and your youngest? Are they all from the same dad? I'm trying to figure out why they treated your youngest daughter so cold and cruelly. If there was a huge age gap, or another father I can see the jealousy thing. That being said however, I truly believe that some people are just born jealous and insecure and no amount of praise, reassurance and love is going to change that. Try to keep busy and the time will pass faster until the holidays. Can you go visit her inbetween the holidays to break up the length of time?

heartbrke, I'd like to say welcome but it's not exactly the kind of club one wants to belong to. This is a safe place to come to just as raven states. Raven is so right about friends not understanding, and how could they? They can only imagine what we're going through which unfortunately doesn't do justice to our situation. Trying to explain that it hurts worse then my father's death because my dad didn't choose to die just seems to fall on deaf ears. They just can't relate.

Friends tend to think they have all the solutions too. I know they are trying to be helpful, but at times it gets so frustating to hear them say try this, and try that, since we have tried everything under the sun with no success.

Manipulative and abusive seems to describe most if not all of the sons, daughters, or their spouses written about in these posts.

Heartbrk, have you tried contacting your sons, and if so, what happened? Are your sons close to each other and their wives, as in doing things together? Perhaps they talk, and the girls are both on the same page (as it sounds like they are.)

anniebal

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straycat_wandering

I am new to this site. I actually found it during a late night search for answers to questions I still can't believe I need to ask.
I have lost all of my children, thus also losing a grandchild in the process. It's been almost two years, but it is permanent. The death of one of my children almost killed me, as my other children were well aware, so when they "disowned" me, they were/are aware of the impact upon my very soul. This is the reason our "estrangement" is permanent. I CANNOT be subjected to "walking on glass" or living this pain again.
So, I have an "old life" (with children and a grandchild) and now a "new life" (without children or a grandchild).
Parts of my lives "crossover" and I am trying to etch a nook for those areas, quite difficult as is the entire theme.
As I read through the postings, I noted several comments from people who don't have a clue about living with this situation. Which is/was upsetting. For those of you, I posted a reply on the next set of postings-I hope you will understand.
Because "Life is short-be kind"

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witchiepoo

because my estrangement with my older kids has been for MANY years i have experienced a wide range of emotions. for many years i suffered with guilt, blaming myself and days where i had little self-worth. since then i have made remarkable progress and came to believe in myself. i would like to share with you...a self-luv prayer ...i said on a daily basis. perhaps it could provide u some comfort, as well, if u have those kinds of days...

enfold me in your rose pink wings.
let me know what it is to luv myself.
help me to give the luv and nurturing i
give to myself right now...as i have
none to give at this time.
help me to heal the
great wound in my heart.
help me to luv myself unconditionally and
to be kind to my best friend: me.
help me to understand i deserve luv.
i am worthy.
lift my troubled heart up to the level of
unconditional luv and let me bask in its
rosy pink glow.
thank you.

....raven

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witchiepoo

oops....

line 4 should read....

help me to give the luv and nurturing i
give to others to myself right now...as i have
none to give at this time.

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anniebal

witchipoo, I like the prayer very much. It is something I can use to help myself through this and not forget that I deserve better than how I'm being treated.

straycat, I'm so sorry about your estrangement and the unbelievalbe loss of your child. I of course can only imagine the pain you must have gone through, but I do feel somewhat understanding due to the situation with my son. The pain has been unbearable and I wonder many times if I can keep going and reach the other side. You do give me hope. How sad your other children cannot be there for you during the time in your life when you undoubtably need them the most.

anniebal

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witchiepoo

straycat....you said "life is short b kind"....

kindness and grace....they always get me thru difficult situations. i haven't posted in a bit and read your message. i cannot feel your pain as u do but i can only imagine. please know u r not alone...i have experienced great loss but different from yours. i know support makes a huge or well THE DIFFERENCE in a person's life. i hope u have that in your life. please come back to this forum and keep posting.

the selfishness of man is too widespread but i know good people r the salt of the earth and once we find them we can perhaps see a little ray of sunshine.

thinking of everyone here...raven

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jstgvup

Hi, everyone...Just wanted to share an excerpt from a book by Judith Viorst called-"Necessary Losses" that has helped me in dealing with many of the losses in my life..to some extent anyway. 'When we think of loss we think of the loss, through death, of people we love. But loss is a far more encompassing theme in our life. For we lose not only through death, but also by leaving and being left, by changing and letting go and moving on.And our losses include not only our separations and departures from those we love, but our conscious and unconscious losses of romantic dreams, impossible expectations, illusions of freedom and power, illusions of safety--and the loss of our own younger self,the self that thought it always would be unwrinkled and invulnerable and immortal. Somewhat wrinkled, highly vulnerable and non-negotiably mortal, I have been examining these losses, These lifelong losses. These necessary losses. These losses we confront when we are confronted by the inescapable fact.... that our mother is going to leave us, and we will leave her; that our mother's love can never be ours alone; that what hurts us cannot always be kissed and made better; that we are essentially out here on our own; that we will have to accept-in other people and ourselves-the mingling of love with hate,of the good with the bad; that no matter how wise and beautiful and charming a girl may be, she still cannot grow up to marry her dad; that our options are constricted by anatomy and guilt; that there are flaws in every human connection; that our status on this planet is implacably impermanent; and that we are utterly powerless to offer ourselves or those we love protection-protection from danger and pain, from the inroads of time, from the coming of age, from the coming of death;protection from our necessary losses. These losses are a part of life-universal,unavoidable, inexorable. And these losses are necessary because we grow by losing and leaving and letting go. For the road to human development is paved with renunciation. Throughout our life we grow by giving up. We give up some of our deepest attachments to others. We give up certain cherished parts of ourselves. We must confront, in the dreams we dream, as well as in our intimate relationships, all that we never will have and never will be. Passionate investment leaves us vulnerable to loss. And some times, no matter how clever we are, we must lose."

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laurene1970

Hi Everyone
I ve been off the site for a couple of weeks because I'm so disturbed and having a hard time. Thanks for the advice on tough love and "Toxic" book. I sent an email to my daughter quite simply at the advice of my counselor.It said "miss you.sorry for your emotional turmoil with me...love you. The counselor wanted me to show sympathy for how my daughter is feeling, but also to let her know she is in turmoil and reacting. Well...no response, but she did tell my daughter in law that she was "all set" with me because I blamed her in the enail. I have loved her so much, been her biggest fan of any triumphs or obstacles in life and have many laughs with her. We were so very close. It still baffles me as to how she can just abandon me and our relationship.
Reminder:::::When she doesn;t have a boyfriend.she's wonderful W@hen she has one....she looks for a fight and dumps me. Has anyone else experienced this scenario?? I want her to find a good man and be happy but for God's sake why does she get rid of me??

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straycat_wandering

Thank you so much everyone for the kind thoughts and words. As much as I would never even wish being rejected by one's child on anyone, it is so nice to know someone really understands my pain.
For laurene1970 when my daughter talked to me (sort of & some times) I picked up a book that is excellent. It's called "Mothers of Difficult Daughters"
and I think it would help you understand the reasons she "sometimes plays you."
The poem is so right on target...it describes perfectly that feeling of emptiness...total nothingness except the stabbing pain...in the center of my chest.
You all have such as wealth of knowledge to share and share so willingly-thank you so much.
I also did the counseling thing, but found it's almost impossible to explain the depth of pain. The words of advice, acknowledgment, and encouragement were great after a counseling session, but it's really hard to hear them or feel their message when you wake up in the middle of the night and your heart feels like it's been turned inside out, and your worse nightmare has come true.
My children were my life, and as much as I enjoyed every minute of that time I guess that is one place I made a big mistake.
So now I have a "new life," and some parts are excellent. I moved to another state, met and married a wonderful man (who thought he wanted children, but after seeing my pain changed his mind) and I work where everyday I am working to make a difference in someone's life, for the better.

"Necessary Losses"...thanks for sharing, it sounds like my next book.
Thank you all again.

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anniebal

laurene, I'm sorry your daughter's response put the blame back on you. You have no idea how much that reminds me of my estranged son. It seems no matter how I put something, he turns it around to me having insulted or blamed him!! I could be trying to say that I take full responsibliity for what happened and he could still twist it around to meaning something it certainly didn't. He does this with my husband as well, and our relatives have noticed this when they try to talk to him regarding our situation.

I do remember your position, and how your daughter wants you unless she has a man in her life. Maybe this is what's going on with our son. Since he has had our dil in his life he doesn't seem to care about antyhing else. We had a very similar relationship as you describe regarding you and your daughter....loving, close, did lots together, etc. etc.

Maybe we need to act like we don't care. Like I suggested at another forum, maybe we need to play hard to get like we used to do in high school when we wanted a boy to notice us. It certainly seems like the more we do or did for him, the less he wanted us so perhaps we're too easy?

jstgvup, wow that is great! Thanks so much for sharing that, and now I've already purchased it on line. I could tell just from the excerpt that I need to read it.

straycat, you do an unbelievable job of defining the hurt and why therapy doesn't really help. I still go once in a while but I know it's mostly to vent since as much as I talk about getting over the pain it just never seems to leave.

I do think my mistake also was making my kids my entire life. I always thought that with the love and commitment I had to give my kids, that I would be reciprocated in kind. At one time it was mutual, but then it became as if I loved them too much and he couldn't handle that? Maybe it's proving independence, or maybe they are afraid of how much we love them? Perhaps they think we couldn't get along without them and that puts too much pressure on themselves? Maybe it's all or none as they say?

I wish I knew, I just don't understand it.

I'm so happy that you have found someone you love and are working on starting a new life. You deserve to be happy.

anniebal

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starrs1414_yahoo_com

Anniebal & straycat
Wow! Anniebal your words of experience are so similar to mine . You really do understand as a "good, loving mother". What compassion and care you have.
Maybe our kids can't be loyal to two people in their lives so one has to go or maybe they just enjoy the power of using our unconditional love to"Bully us" in a sense (control). You know I'm thinking that maybe they really don't feel good or confident because they've leaned on us so much, that they want to cut us free out of fear when they have someone else. I'm so tired of thinking of the "WHY" it happened. I'm also am getting tired of feeling badly after counseling. It goes nowhere.
Anniebal, you are truly a caring person. Good luck with all you do.
Straycat
I think you explained perfectly how agonizing this situation is. When you go home at night, you are so right at how painful it is. I actually cried when i read your words, because it is so painful to those who have experienced it. I will get that book/thanks for recommending it!!
Good luck to you too.
You guys are the best!! Don't know what I'd do without you to help me feel ok at times.

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sarahsmom

As I was reading this last post.. something came to my mind..
before things got as far as complete estrangement, I was having a conversation with my older son about the younger one. One thing he said has stayed with me, and if it could be said about the younger one, he could have easily embraced that thinking for himself..
He said.. you know, when suddenly you start to look at yourself and realize what you have done.. it is sort of overwhelming, so it's sometimes easier just to move on and not deal with all that...
YIKES!! I am trying to understand how you can do that, and what is worse, it's not the why anymore, but HOW can you just dump your family like last night's pizza...what did we teach them with our love and compassion? how did they interpret what we taught them to mean that they need to be just downright ugly, spiteful and mean? This is what just blows me away.. it's the lengths that they go to to make sure you know that you are not part of their lives anymore.

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anniebal

Laurene, thanks for your kind words about my mothering. I do think I was a good mom but I'm not sure of anything anymore since this happened. I doubt myself all the time and think of the things I wish I could do over again if I could. None of that does any good.

Sarahsmom, your conversation with your older son is very revealing and could be well sum up the feelings of our estranged children. It's like they've dug the hole so deep that they can't come out, so they just keep digging. We didn't teach them this example, nor did their wonderful grandparents. The picture of our family was one of love, dedication and loyalty, how far our son has strayed from the wonderful examples both my parents and hubby's had set.

Maybe when they mature a bit they won't be so afraid to face the mistakes they've made and realize that we will forgive them if they just ask. Right now we'd be willing to just not talk about the past at all and move forward, no apologies necessary. however, we can't even get that far since the drama starts right back up if we talk to him.

anniebal

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sarahsmom

Anniebal...

Something you said scares me... I just want to point this out.. I could be completely wrong and everyone has to do what is right for them, but.. during the conversation I was discussing... my son had come here to say that he never wanted to discuss the past and that we just needed to move forward.. there were no apologies.. I jumped in whole heartedly and said.. by all means.. love, hugs, etc..
WEll.. I saw him maybe 5 more times before this all fell completely apart. He said that we made he and his then fiance uncomfortable and he had to chose.. he said he couldn't have anything to do with us. In hindsight.. if I am ever presented with that opportunity again, while I wouldn't insist on any kind of apology, I will need to know
what was in his head that would make him able to toss away his family, 25 yrs of history, etc.. If I don't know what it was that caused this, then I will inevitably do it again. I too don't even have that as an option, I am just hoping ahead:-)

just my thoughts... please don't doubt yourself.. especially when there is no explanation from them.. it would have happened no matter what we did.. in my case, I know they were looking for something to turn into the big "offense"..

hugs to you all..

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laurene1970

Anniebal,
Yes you were and are a good mother. We are givers not "takers" which is why we question ourselves and try to think about what we could have done differently. If you showed love and compassion and were supportive then you would expect to be treated the same way. However, this immature attitude of our children is not something we could have predicted. My daughter took and took support, love and whatever else she sought, over and over again. I thought i was being a good mother but I enabled her to treat me this way (estranged)-- Because i love her unconditionally. I'm serious about what I have to say..I'm sick and tired of crying and thinking and rethinking about this. If we ever talk again and if she really needs my support..guess what???.She will mature because I'm not giving the way I did. She;ll grow up. Either sink or swim because they don't care if you sink or swim or drown. If I sound bitter, I am, I have been a good mother. There is nothing in this world that can justify the way I am being treated and I;m sure you personally feel the same way. Good day, peace and love.
TALK TO YOU SOON. p.S. Anniebal how old is your son?

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magoo_2006

"I'm sick and tired of crying and thinking and rethinking about this. If we ever talk again and if she really needs my support..guess what???.She will mature because I'm not giving the way I did. She;ll grow up. Either sink or swim because they don't care if you sink or swim or drown. If I sound bitter, I am, I have been a good mother. There is nothing in this world that can justify the way I am being treated and I;m sure you personally feel the same way. "

Laurene, I feel exactly the same way. Every human being has their limits, even loving parents. Loving parents can only take so much abuse even from their own kids. I honestly believe that at some point you have to quit catering to your grown kds and like Laurene said, make them grow up and then maybe someday they will look back and appreciate what they once had in their loving parents. Until then I have nothing to do with my abusive grown son.

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witchiepoo

good evening to all...

"i'm sick and tired of crying and thinking and rethinking about this". i can relate to that statement...went back and forth with this emotional roller coaster for many many years. it really is a process...and i feel it is something we need to do. i have found that time helps somewhat as is with everything.

if they want a mother than they need to be a daughter or son...right? it takes two to have a relationship!

everyone's words here of inspiration keep me keepin' on.

smiles...raven

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anniebal

Sarahsmom, I could see the exact same thing happening 'IF' we ever got back with our son. Perhaps start out saying we all accept everyone for who they are, no more apologies, etc. etc. but then....chop, chop, they cut us off. Somehow you commited some offense during those 5 visits with your son and his fiance? Please! These kids are looking, and I'm not sure it's our kids doing the looking. I do believe the my son who is 27 now, was duped into the relationship he currently has with us. I seriously think that this was her agenda, to break us apart so that there could be no one but her. I'm sure it happens with son in laws as well, it's not exclusively a female behavior. My son is accountable for allowing her to do this to his family, and him. What kind of person did we raise that could be so easily told what to do?

Laurene, you stated:

"My daughter took and took support, love and whatever else she sought, over and over again. I thought i was being a good mother but I enabled her to treat me this way (estranged)-- Because i love her unconditionally. I'm serious about what I have to say..I'm sick and tired of crying and thinking and rethinking about this."

I feel the same about my son. We gave and gave and would still be giving if he'd allow us in his life. I agree that I enabled my son to treat me like this. It's like we were there to much, that we weren't appreciated because we were around. I should've been the absent mom since then my son would most likely have me in his life.

Laurene, I'm sick and tired of it too. When I started having communication with my son this past May I was guardedly hopeful that we could have some type of relationship. But soon it became apparent that the only relationship he wanted was to see us at family get togethers, and talk on the phone. I'm not kidding. He and his wife had this wonderful trip planned this June and I realized that I didn't know how we would contact him in an emergency. I had already talked to him on the phone so I didn't want to call, so I just zipped him an email. I asked him if he could give me their itinerary in the rare chance there was the type of emergency that we would need to call him. I did this on a Sunday night around 10pm and come Monday at 11am I still had not heard from him. I started imagining the he was having a difficult time with this request, that he or my dil didn't want us to have that information for some crazy reason. That afternoon around 2pm I wrote him another email stating that he need not give me the information as long as someone we know has it. Within 10 minutes I heard back from him via email telling me that his in laws had their itinerary and 'thanks for understanding.' Now, I don't know about you, but I knew exactly what that meant and still do. He couldn't tell us. Either he didn't trust us, or he was struggling with how to get permission from his wife to let us know the information. It obviously was causing some dilemma for him simply based on the fact that he never responded. Chances are if I never wrote him back telling him that I didn't need the information I wouldn't have heard a peep back from him. It would have been another one of his cowardly ways in dealing with us.

witchipoo, you stated:

"if they want a mother than they need to be a daughter or son...right? it takes two to have a relationship!"

SOooo true!! When did it become a one way street? It takes two to tango, and if we're the only one dancing it won't look very pretty. I just don't get that we need to chase him or them. I am so afraid of this happening with my younger son now. I feel like I'm there for him way too much, and though he is a much different temperment than his brother, it is scary.

Does anyone else have this fear with their other child (children?)

anniebal

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kats_2007

Imaginny thank you. I have as others here, experienced such a massive change in attitude from my daughter, that it left me; doubting my own sanity. To believe we are very close to someone and they love us and to trust in that, then have that proven to be untrue, is devastating.

I did at times feel suicidal, I truly felt my trust and heart was broken. I felt I didn't believe in anything anymore. I always believed that if my back was to the wall and I could count on nobody else in the world, I could count on my daughter.

I was going through a whole lot of major life stresses at once: My daughter leaving home and moving thousands of miles away to marry a man I didn't know. Approaching senior citizen stage of life and the psychological mountains to climb with that. Moving to another country with no friends, no family, no job, no home and no major assets for my old age.

I am optimistic, I am a survivor, and knew I would survive, but I did experience fear and loneliness.

I did not expect my daughter to be responsible for me, just to be there if my back was to the wall for a time. I expected to be welcomed into her new life.
I wasn't. I was pushed out from the start and viewed as a burden.

Don't get me wrong, she did try to demonstrate love and care, with grand plans that would most certainly have made my life better and bought us closer together geographically.

But they were unrealistic plans and I did not want her to commit to such a big responsibility, I knew it would cause problems in her marriage.

It did, but I was viewed as a problem by her husband, because she made those plans despite my protests. this in turn led to undercurrent and hostilities with her husband, which in turn led to problem between them and now, she sees me as the problem too. I suspect that his family also see me as a problem.

It's a catch 22. I can't win whichever way I go.
I have told her, I do not want my airfares paid anymore if I go to visit, because I know it is resented and I am seen as draining their mutual assets.

That I will stay in a hotel, because staying with them causes tension and arugments. But that I will not be able to do this every year, because I have to save for when I can no longer work, due to my lack of assets and given that I am 61 who knows how much longer I'll be working full time.

My daughter ignores this and insists on paying my fare and have me staying with her. I know it will only cause more problems, on top of so many problems that we have reached a stage of almost total estrangement.

To add to all of this, they both involve me in their marital problems, some of them significant, causing me so much worry and stress that at times I have felt that I am so close to breaking point that I cannot take one more accusatory telephone conversation or one more situation where I am treated like a tolerated outsider in her life, who is causing problems.

My daughter has treated me with such lack of consideration at a time when I most needed it and accused me of such awful things, that I feel I have to protect myself by cutting her out of my life.

I love her dearly, and would do anything for her, but I do not trust her anymore and cannot afford to lose any more time from work due to depression. I feel that one more hostile interaction with her will push me over the edge. I am alone. I need to find a home. I need to keep my job and I need to save for the time when I cannot work anymore and the way things are going, I hold no hope that if I found myself seriously ill or living on the bread line, that I would be seen as anything other than an even bigger problem, causing her even more stress. For my survial I have to cut her out and leave her to get on with her life, without feeling torn between her husband and me.

Thank you for creating this post. I have tried to get some support on the net before and often found that people answer with callous answers, without knowing the intricate details or that they are making our pain more difficult. They do not realise that when we are so vulnerable, that their callousness could potentially push us over the edge. Neither do they realise that one day, they will likely find themselves in the same position, as the world we live in is now geared away from family bonds.

I wish you all the best of luck and advise you, not to allow youself to be destroyed by your children's hostility. You have done your parenting, you have given and loved, now it's time to do that for yourself.

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anniebal

Kats, thanks so much for sharing your very painful story. I relate to the other sites you visited being less than supportive. I feel that many people not in this position find it all to easy to find the answers, many times blaming us. We as parents it seems have the sole responsibility for making things work with our kids, even when they won't allow us to.

As you stated we are lacking a true bond to the family now, as in parents to their young adult kids. It is obviously becoming more talked about since I read more and more cases at several sites.

We gave too much to our kids. We made them beyond the center of the universe as if nothing else mattered, not even our own lives. Our kids lack a true appreciation for us as their parents, and with that lack of appreciation comes lack of respect (or none!)

I read how hurt you sound in thinking you could trust your daughter and the love you shared. Just where does it go and will it ever come back, or will we be dead and gone before it does?

I wish you the best of luck in your future. You sound very determined, and have wisened up to the fact that at some point we have to draw the line or we will be pushed to the breaking point.

anniebal

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connierose_2000

Hi All,
Well, I guess I am now a member of this club. Just a short history: I divorced when my daughter was 4, raised her on my own (no $$$). She is now a successful doctor in the Pasadena area. She is married with 1 child. I thought we had a very close relationship. However, it quickly changed once she married and moved to CA. Her husband has made it very clear that he wants nothing to do with family (his too) and both sides of the family have been told that we are not to talk to one another. His Mom has also been divorced for many years and she has always done as he has requested. My daughter is going along with all of this.

Anyway, I've not seen my daughter in over a year this includes my only grandchild as well. I'm really at a loss as what to do. Like many of you I keep trying to open the door, talking, crying etc. to no avial. I feel so hopeless and unloved by her. I've gone to two extremes from having no contact to contacting her trying to get some reaction. I'm truly lost.....

Does anyone know of a support group in Michigan? Thanks!

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anniebal

Connie, I'm sorry to hear about your situation...truly. I don't know what comes over our kids that would convince them this was the right thing to do. How do they come to peace with this?

Do you still talk to your daughter? Does she let you talk to your granddaughter? How old is the GD?

I wish they had support groups for this thing in every state! They do have one in Texas and one other state that I know of. Anyone can start a support group, though I imagine that it's a big undertaking.

How close in proximity are you to your daughter?

anniebal

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straycat_wandering

It has been a wonderful support for me to know I'm not out there by myself, but at the same time it makes me so sad to see so many mothers who were obviously great loving mothers treated this way by their children.
You are all so very right about the depth of this pain. I really don't think anyone can imagine how much we hurt unless they have loved their children like we have loved (and love) ours.
I've had people tell me that my children will "come around. Not only is there no progress toward reconciliation but, (as bad as this sounds) I am not sure I can let them back into my life and still remain sane. I know the ropes will just be tighter and I'd be walking on broken glass-trying to please them and I don't think I can live through this pain again.
It's like they became total strangers, their lack of love, compassion all astonish me-where did these people come from. What happened to the sweet, kind and loving children I raised?
We as mother's should be able to relax knowing our children love us and treat us with respect.
Once again; I appreciate you all.

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sarahsmom

Straycat..

This is exactly what I want to communicate in this documentary.. as I mentioned on another thread.. many of us have the same voice same stories same thoughts.. I think we have to band together and express ourselves.. what will our society be like in the future if this is an acceptable practice. You know that by treating us the way they do, they are showing their children that this is an appropriate behavior. I have been talking to Mark Sichel about this and he has agreed to be part of my video as well as an advisor.. he said

"I have a great deal of information on this now for my second book which I may finish writing some day, but it's all about the success of relationships having to do with virtue & character.
People need a higher purpose (like the correctness of family relationships) and a commitment to courage, humility, correctness....or the result is disastrous. Unfortunately the psychopathic narcissistic behavior is encouraged in our world by commercialism, corporate greed, etc"

I think he is right on and at the same time.. I feel sadly as you do.. I could not let them in my life.. I could not trust them ever again... they are total strangers..

big big hugs..

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anniebal

Sarahsmom, are you estranged from more than one child? I'm sorry If I'm forgetting your story. Is your son the one who convinced his younger brother not to trust you? The dil who was spying on your email?

Straycat and Sarahsmom, as miserable as I am I also don't know if I could take him back after all the hurt and pain he has caused. I could only do that if he changed, and I certainly don't see that happening. I won't walk on egg shells again, or grovel/beg...that's over.

Either he can accept me and love me for who I am, or we won't have a relationship.

The pain is so deep that I sometmies wonder if I'll survive this and be truly happy again.

Our kids are indeed strangers now.

anniebal

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sarahsmom

Yes... that's me.. DIL and older son in my email, found something I wrote and took younger brother with them..
it's all really silly.. i shouldn't have written what I did, but I wasn't writing to them.. seems like the focus became what I said rather than how they found out..
I have apologized to both but they have said they weren't sure they could accept my apology and as far as they were concerned they have done "nothing" wrong and would never apologize.
I have tried to move on....

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imaginny

sarahsmom,

Often the estrangements begin over something that seems silly. Something that when you look at it and weigh the two: perpetual estrangement and the "thing that happened", the former outweighs the latter by a huge margin. From that point on, everything changes and it becomes a completely no win situation. No matter how much you were apparently loved before. It doesn't matter. You become like dirt beneath their feet. An object of scorn.

There aren't words to describe how astonishing and painful this is to parents who have had this happen. As a parent no one expects this to be the result of having been a loving parent. It is the opposite of what any reasonable person would expect to have happen.

Ginny

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imaginny

This will be the 150th post in the thread which is usually the last post in the thread as the threads are limited to 150 posts. (But sometimes a 151st post sneaks in.)

So that everyone can find it easily, I have gone ahead and set up the continuing thread as I stated would be done in the first post.

I hope that one day there will be stories of resolutions and reconciliations too. Or if that is not to be for some of us, then stories of mothers who are surviving and thriving despite being estranged by their children.
Ginny

Here is a link that might be useful: Estrangements: The Website

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Calisunshine01_msn_com

Hello,
There truly should be more helpful sites like this one. I was sitting here looking for poems of encouragement for my Mother who has cancer and it is not the type of cancer that can be cured. I dont know how, but I ended up on this site. I too have two daughters that are not speaking to me.
My eldest is almost 28 yrs old and my youngest daughter is going to be 26 yrs old in Oct.
It is difficult to explain all the has happen but I do very much need someone to talk to concerning this and many difficult things that are going on at the moment in my life.
Anyone that wishes to contact me can do so ( from this site ) by emailing me at my email address which is.........Calisunshine01@msn.com
If you do decide to email me I ask that in the SUBJECT line of your email that you write the words...
LIFE......right now!
Thank you one and all. Have a wonderful day, or night depending on where you are.
Take care all.......
Kim

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