Congratulations on your new bread machine. And the answer to your question about baking outside of your bread machine is - YES! Most of us around here use our bread machine for making dough, not baking in. I've owned 2 Zojirushi bread machines over the last 20 years and I think I've baked maybe 5 loaves of bread in them.

I'd suggest you read the instruction manual for making dough. You seem to be "winging" it a bit. The recipe you are using is obviously not a bread machine recipe (although you can adapt non-bread machine recipes - just make sure they don't exceed the maximum amount of flour your machine will hold and follow the general bread machine instructions).

To me, this recipe seems to have too much milk in it - which can also cause problems with the crust looking more like a roller coaster ride than a nice smooth rounded top. In bread making, although you find this done and is one of the many exceptions to the rule, yeast should be proofed in water, not milk. But that's another discussion.

1. Proofing your yeast is unnecessary in a bread machine. Follow the manufacturer's directions for loading your machine, which is usually (but not always) liquid first, flour, make a depression in the middle of the flour and sprinkle yeast in it. Make sure the yeast does NOT touch any liquid. Make another depression for the salt. You don't want the salt and yeast to touch. Be sure to remove the bucket from the machine to load it to prevent getting flour inside the bread machine.

2. Also in your owner's manual, there should be a troubleshooting guide. There you will find a loaf that rises, then falls may have too much liquid. Did you adjust the dough after the first 5-minutes (or so) of kneading? The dough should be a very soft, sticky ball. If it doesn't hold together as a ball of dough, you need to adjust it by adding a little flour (1-2 T. at a time). If the dough is dry and crumbly and not in a ball, or the ball appears firm, not soft, add more liquid (also 1-2 T. at a time). Your machine still has kneading time and will work the flour or liquid into the bread dough. Keep checking your dough until you are satisfied that a soft, sticky ball has formed.

3. You don't say what brand your bread machine is, but not all bread machines are recommended for 100% whole wheat bread.

When I teach bread machine classes, I give each student a copy of "Bread Machines for Dummies" by Glenna Vance and Tom Lacalamita (check your local library for the book). The book has excellent information and instructions for using a bread machine, and I've never had a failed recipe from the book. ;-)

Good luck!

-Grainlady

I was going to say what Grainlady said. Well, part of it, not ALL of what she said, LOL.

When I used my bread machine the instructions were always to put the liquid ingredients in first, then spread the dry ingredients over top and finally the yeast. No proofing needed (or recommended).

I don't bother with a bm any more, I make my bread by hand. But a lot of people use it for kneading, but form it in a regular bread pan and bake in in that.

Have fun!!

I also have a bread machine. I often use it just for mixing up the dough and bake in the oven. But during the hot summer months, I rely on the bread machine for every step, including baking. I make a lot of 100% whole wheat loaves with or without added ingredients like sunflower seeds, sesame seeds, and cracked wheat. So they're pretty hearty breads yet come out tender & soft. I use mainly recipes from King Arthur Flour.

I've found that the most important step is checking the dough about five minutes into the kneading process. You can quickly determine if your dough is too dry and needs more liquid or too wet and needs more flour.

Also, if you bake in the machine, it's really important that the dough not be overly soft. It won't have the structure to keep its shape during baking. It could overproof or get too much oven spring and then collapse.

I check the dough five minutes into kneading, make adjustments, and then set a timer to check again in 3 minutes. I keep this up until I'm satisfied that the dough is good to go.

After years of dealing with an older Zojirushi, a Panasonic, and the newer Zojirushi Virtuoso, I honestly believe that the whole idea of dumping ingredients, turning the machine on, walking away, and ending up with perfectly baked bread is a myth. You really do need to monitor the dough during the kneading process.

When I make whole wheat bread, I use half WW and half bread flour, as using all WW makes a dense loaf. Also, not all WW flours are equal. I found that Bob's Red Mill WW flour makes a very dense loaf, even when mixed with half bread flour, and so I use 1/4 Bob's Red Mill WW with 1/4 generic WW and 1/2 bread flour. For 1-1/2 cups WW + 1-1/2 cups of bread flour, I use 2-1/4 tsp instant dry yeast, 1-1/2 Tbsp sugar, 1-1/2 tsp salt, 1-1/2 Tbsp VWG, 1-1/2 Tbsp instant milk powder (since I do not keep milk on hand), 1-1/2 Tbsp oil (or melted butter - I usually use avocado oil), and 1-1/4 cup water. In my machine (Panasonic), the yeast goes into a dispenser on top, and the other ingredients are mixed together before it drops the yeast in. If I use generic WW flour instead of 3/4 cup Bob's Red Mill WW flour, I use 1-1/4 tsp IDY.

I add all the dry ingredients first and stir them with a plastic spatula in the machine, then add the oil and stir that in, and lastly add the water, and stir that in as well. You are supposed to be able to dump everything in together, but I have found that that yields a lopsided loaf. Since I have been making the same recipe many, many times, I have not found it necessary to check the ingredients after I have closed the lid, and I can tell after mixing the water in whether the dough has the right amount of liquid or not.

I regret buying the bread machine for dummies book - it has been no help to me at all - perhaps because I am not a dummy. The owner's manual is much more useful, however, and so I recommend following those instructions.

What brand machine do you have?

Lars

Lars, I found with my Panasonic (same model as yours) that if I follow the manual's recipes, I don't have to check more than once. However, if I use another recipe, I do. Interesting note about mixing the ingredients before the machine starts kneading. Thanks for that tip.

Grainlady,

I used my bread machine's recipe for whole wheat bread, increasing the liquid by ¼ cup and reducing flour by ½ cup. The "as written" recipe called for 1 ¼ cups water + 2 tbls nonfat dry milk. I didn't have the dry milk, so used whole milk with the slight increase (¼ cup) instead.

You're right that it didn't call for proofing the yeast. I adopted that from a white bread recipe that gave me a fluffier loaf than the white bread recipe included with my machine. I was hoping to replicate that with the whole wheat loaf.

When i checked the dough during the first rise, it seemed about perfect. Slightly tacky, but not sticking to my fingers. It had a nice resilience. It seemed just about right to me, not wet.

My machine is the Hamilton Beach HomeBaker. I used KAF whole wheat flour.

Maybe ¼ cup less milk will take care of it?

shambo,

I could never get the soft, fluffy loaves I wanted making bread with my KA mixer and by hand, so decided to try the bread machine (Hamilton Beach HomeBaker). I've been pretty happy with the loaves it's produced. I am convinced the bread machine does a much better job kneading the dough than I ever could before.

My first was the white bread recipe from the manual, exactly as written but subbing milk in equal amounts for the water, to get a softer crust. That loaf looked really dry and lumpy during kneading/rising, so after the second knead, I took it out of the machine and finished it by hand. It was lighter and fluffier than my prior hand-made loaves, but not *exactly* what I wanted.

My second loaf was another white one, from Allrecipes, Best Bread Machine Bread. It's the one that called for proofing in the machine for 10 minutes. That loaf was perfect, made entirely in the machine. But it was still white bread, not something we normally eat.

Then came my whole wheat loaf. It was almost perfect, just the little fall on the top, and a slightly inconsistent crumb from top to bottom. I made it all in the machine.

My goal is 10-grain bread that's light and fluffy, like Arnold's/Oroweat. The flavor of the whole wheat is good, but not as full of flavor as we're used to.

I'm also wondering if flat beer will help lend a richer flavor. Any advice there?

It seems the two things to try first are reducing the liquid by ¼ cup or not proofing the yeast first. Or perhaps going right to the addition of the 10-grain cereal will take care of the problem. Any tips here? Would you pre-soak the cereal as I used to when making the 10-grain by hand?

I'm glad you mentioned using the machine to bake in summer, that's important to me, too. I live in Tampa where we're still in the mid-80's during the day, even though it's now October. I don't fancy firing up Breville oven for a long time and certainly not my full size oven.

I'm not sure why you felt that if the recipe called for 1 1/4 cups water and 2 T nonfat milk powder, that a good substitute would be even more liquid and less flour. I would have just subbed 1 1/4 cups whole milk and left all the other ingredients alone.

FLsandytoes-

Proofing the yeast was an interesting "new" twist to making fluffy bread in a bread machine, and one I've never come across. I think there are probably much better methods, but one just never knows..... I had a friend who used fresh yeast in his bread machine and it had to be proofed, so there are some applications for this process in a bread machine. I have a recipe for white sandwich bread that uses 1 cup of white cake mix, as another interesting example for making "fluffy" white bread, due to the soft wheat flour in the cake mix.

FYI -- Two tablespoons of non-fat powdered milk, reconstituted, equals 1/2 c. of milk - which is a reasonable amount of milk in a bread recipe without causing crumb and crust problems. Much more than that and you will need to scald the milk first to avoid the textural problems caused by too much milk (from the milk whey protein). Heating the milk denatures the problematic protein.

Try the recipe with 1/2 c. of milk and the remaining liquid water and see if you get different results. You will STILL need to adjust the dough for correct hydration (soft sticky ball) while it's starting to knead.

--To improve 100% whole wheat bread, add an acidic ingredient, such as ascorbic acid. Some yeast products add ascorbic acid to the yeast. Yeast works better and longer in a slightly acidic atmosphere.

There is a substance in wheat germ called Glutathione which breaks down the gluten - and is why we have trouble getting high-rising, fluffy, loaves of whole wheat bread without lightening the loaf by adding bleached/unbleached flour. By adding ascorbic acid it will help counteract the negative effects of Glutathione and will help repair broken gluten bonds (which is the cause of short, compact, squatty loaves). Add 1/8 t. of ascorbic acid (Fruit Fresh will work - it's a mix of ascorbic and citric acid) per 3-cups of flour. You may also find some recipes for 100% whole wheat bread that add lemon juice or vinegar for the same acidic effect, but it takes a lot more lemon juice or vinegar than it does ascorbic acid. You would have to use 6-times as much lemon juice to be as effective as ascorbic acid.

-- Another way to lighten 100% whole wheat bread is to do a sponge with a portion of the flour for at least 1-1/2 hours, and as long as overnight. When I incorporated this method I got high-rising loaves of 100% whole wheat bread that were equal to any light-wheat and white breads I made. Soaking whole wheat flour helps lighten the loaf by softening the bran (bran cuts the gluten) and it gives the gluten time to absorb moisture, which creates strong gluten bonds without manipulation (kneading). I always use a sponge method for 100% whole wheat bread made in the bread machine.

-- When adding 10-Grain Cereal Mixture, add it towards the end of kneading at the add-in beep. This goes for anything that may have a sharp edge, like nuts, dried fruit, etc. Adding dried fruit (raisins) early in the process and the kneading will pulverize them. If you add this coarse grind of grains/seeds/beans early in the dough making process it will cut the gluten strands as the dough kneads and you'll end up with a short squatty loaf because of the cut gluten. I prefer adding a dry mixture at the add-in beep because I like the "toothy" nuggets from the cereal mixture. If you don't want that much texture, you may want to soak the mixture first, but still wait to add it at the add-in beep towards the end of kneading.

-- Another way to improve 100% whole wheat bread is to wait to add the salt and fat after the dough is kneading and the gluten is well developed. Once you add salt, the gluten tightens and kneading is more difficult - with a bread machine or by hand. Adding the fat early in the mixing/kneading "shortens" the gluten strands and development for a finer textured loaf. You can make the exact same recipe, and by adding the fat early or adding the fat late, it will alter the crumb and size of the loaf. Adding fat early for a close crumb (bread used for sandwiches), add it late for a more open crumb (bread used for toasting). These options are neither right or wrong - but are options to help control the crumb of the bread.

--The same bread making rules and techniques that apply to making bread without the bread machine also apply to making bread IN a bread machine - such as when to add salt and fat. Bread machines are designed to make bread quick and easy and doesn't always take into considerations these rules and techniques.

-- Check the dough for proper hydration while it's kneading, not after it's rising, while you still have time for the ingredients to be mixed into the dough.

-- I only use the bread machine for mixing and kneading dough. As soon as it has completed the kneading I stop the bread machine and remove the dough and place it in a dough-rising bucket. I don't want a machine with a timed rise to determine when the dough has "doubled", which is actually determined by the strength of the yeast, moisture and ambient temperature, not a clock. If I have 1-quart of dough patted into the bottom of the dough-rising bucket, I know it has doubled when it gets to the 2-quart line -- whether it takes 25-minutes or 1-hour. In fact, it's better to only allow dough to rise to just UNDER double because our flour no longer has the extensibility it did as when it was bromated, and whole wheat flour was never bromated.

The reasons not to use milk for proofing:

1. Water is more reliable than milk.

2. When proofing yeast in milk use 4-times the amount of milk as yeast. Yeast also tends to clump in milk and not proof as well. If you have to stir the milk/yeast mixture, you will end up killing some of the yeast.

3. Yeast works best with sucrose (table sugar) over lactose (milk sugar).

4. Yeast granules can become coated with milk fat (much like fat coats flour when making pastry) which can restrict water from entering and dissolving the yeast.

-Grainlady

Hi colleenoz,

I was judging it against the two previous loaves from the machine, and accounting for wheat flour needing more liquid than bread flour. The white bread recipe for the machine uses 1 cup water to 3.5 cups flour. It was too dense for my taste and was very lumpy and dry during kneading. Adding 3 Tbls water helped a little. The better white bread came from a recipe using 1 cup water and 3 cups flour, and proofing the yeast for 10 minutes.

I also found advice (on fresh loaf, IIRC) suggesting that whole milk subbed for water should be slightly increased to account for the fat in the milk.

In light of all that, it made sense, at least to me, an inexperienced baker, to adjust the wheat bread recipe the way I did. The final product was very close to what I want, just needing a little tweak.

Hi Grainlady,

Thank you for taking the time to explain not just what things I can do to affect my loaf, but the why of it. If I'm ever to take control of my bread, I need to move beyond simple directions.

It seems the easiest way to begin is to incorporate a sponge, using about half the flour and all but ½ cup of water. Then when I add the remaining ingredients I can include your suggestion of using just ½ cup milk. Is this what you had in mind?

Thanks also for the tip on adding the cereal during the add-in phase. Pre-soaking it as I've done in the past, I would have likely added the mash right at the start, as the Cook's Illustrated recipe does. This is a great example of the "why" making sense of what might otherwise seem like a nonsensical direction. It might also explain why the CI recipe (made using a KA mixer) didn't give me the light loaf I was hoping for. It tasted really good, but it was a little heavy for everyday sandwiches.

Sandy

Sandy, I've linked to my current favorite recipe from King Arthur Flour. I've baked it several times this summer in my bread machine. Grainlady, has given a lot of great advice over the years, and I've followed many of her suggestions. For example, after measuring the water, I add a spoonful of orange juice concentrate. King Arthur also recommends using some OJ to counter the bitterness some find objectionable when making whole wheat breads. I keep a container of frozen OJ concentrate in my freezer specifically for bread baking. I also add a tablespoon of granular lecithin to help keep the loaf soft.

Grainlady has also recommended using coconut oil and honey for their moisture retaining qualities. So no matter what is called for specifically in the recipe, those are what I use. Between the OJ, lecithin, honey, & coconut oil, I don't have any problems with overly dense & dry whole grain breads that stale quickly.

In the recipe below, I change the flour proportions: I use only 1 cup bread flour and 2 cups WW flour (1 cup each of white whole wheat & traditional whole wheat). I don't use all sunflower seeds either: 1 T sesame seeds, 1 T golden flax seeds, & 2 T sunflower seeds. I also always add a T of vital wheat gluten to whole grain breads. And, finally, I halve both the yeast & salt content because my husband is on a sodium restricted diet.

Along with checking the dough during the knead cycle, once it begins the rise, I open the machine and gently smear a thin layer of oil on the dough ball. Just enough to keep the top soft so that it doesn't dry out in the machine. I think it helps with the shape of the loaf.

Here is a link that might be useful: KAF Harvest Wheat Bread