I don't have a problem with the concept of school taxes. Who among us, could possibly afford to pay $15,000-20,000 tuition per year, per child, if we had to pay our own way in the public school system? (it costs at least that per student in the public school system). No family could afford that. The retirees enjoyed being able to send their children to school, when others were paying their way, so why object now that it's their turn to help someoner else? It's sort of the same concept as insurance. A little is taken from each, so that those who need will be able to get what they need, when they need it.

I am approaching retirement age--and I still believe that the only way we can educate our youngsters is for the entire community to band together to make sure the process works as it should.

Now, obviously, when funds are misappropriated or the schools are mismanaged, that's another matter entirely that needs to be addressed on it's own merits.

I heard that on our news. Unbelievable, no common sense anywhere today.

I don't know of any groups by age, but I do know there are probably a lot of organized groups against school levies.

When state governments start pulling money away from the schools as they are in certain states, there will be hell to pay. It's the same for the post office. I'd say it's more worthwhile to try to keep your state politicians providing funding for schools rather than trying to figure out a way not to pay any school taxes at all. There is probably more to this than meets the eye, Susan. Can you tell I feel strongly about the subject??

Being retired and having been very active in schools while my kids went I do not mind paying taxes. After all, I have grandkids and greats, one with learning problems. The public school along with the head start programs are making a tremendous difference in this childs education. He is now 5, finally talking and even in sentences. Without this education he might have never talked even with the parents trying so hard. But, I think we should also monitor where and how the money is being spent. Just because I personally do not have a child in a certain school, that does not mean I cannot support and volunteer at that school, and yes, even join the PTA if I choose to do so. Get the facts, know the rules and regulations and have fun and encourage our children to be the best they can.
Marie, who has held several PTA offices.

Alisande - I think this is probably a hot topic but I'm going to bite anyway. Not sure how you figure we will educate our kids if we don't all pay. I for one did not want to home school my kids. This is truly not for everyone and truthfully, I can't see the real advantages to homeschooling. Are you proposing that people pay tuition? If you think that we have problems now just wait until we have a bunch of kids who have never gone to school. There's a large amount of parents that I know would not have the ability, desire or drive to homeschool their kids. There's even more parents that couldn't possibly afford to send their kids to a private school.

Now I do not believe that the local taxpayers should shoulder the total costs. I believe the states and federal government needs to step up to the plate. However for that to happen, you must realize that it is still our taxes that would go to pay for it. Either way you look at it, we are all paying.

By the way, I don't have kids in school and I don't have grandkids. I just know it is my responsibility.

Great - so I'm childless, do I get off the hook entirely or do I have to wait until I'm old?
Some communities, like mine, freeze taxes for homeowners at 65. I almost wept when I heard what one of my elderly neighbors paid compared to me - and he had kids, grandkids and maybe ggks....
Seriously though, my issue is not with paying school taxes, but with the stewardship of those monies. I'm certain that we are not the only community in which teachers are paid very poorly compared to administrators and we seem to have a very healthy number of administrators.

that's pretty hard, esp since with the recession, my home has gone from 2011 level, was 49,560, to 43,810...a minus... this has to affect all the things taxes cover...
(oakland county mi, formerly one of high end counties)

now when it was on the flip side before the market took a plunge, i might have thought about the dreaded fixed income...

we have an excellent school dist and i certainly want it to remain the same. one reason? resale values when the market stablizes...we do have to deal with "robinhood taxes" here the entire state ends up trying to keep detroit city afloat...so where do you go? down to 50% drop-out rate?

alisande what you can do, right now, if you really dislike your school dist, is hit them where it counts the most...the voter's booth...maybe it's time for your family to run again...

Teacher's unions are killing us financially, while lowering the ability for a school system to let sub-standard teachers to be let go.
The unions have to go.

You're right, Scissors--this has the potential for turning into a very hot topic (something I should have thought of before I posted). For that reason, I won't go into all the things I believe should be changed about public schooling in general--from what is taught to the way teachers are paid. (Tenure is a 4-letter word in my house.) And yes, Gardenspice, the administrators are really raking it in.

Susan, my late husband was the school board member. He had a doctorate from an Ivy League school and an abiding interest in good education for our children. But what mattered most to the voters was where we went (or didn't go) to church. I was a thorn in the side of the school district for years, and we took legal action against them at least once. I'm afraid I no longer have the energy or desire to maintain that position. I should add that we were fair--we always supported the good teachers and constructive policies.

I know my opinion on this issue isn't a popular one, but I really believe that most public schools' biggest contribution to the community is custodial; other than that, they possibly do more harm than good. When you feel this way about something, it's hard to get motivated to pay for it.

If they eliminated the "over 65" crowd around here it would wipe out the tax base. The majority of land owners are well over that age.

I pay a staggering amount of property tax - so it does frost my hide when I see ridiculous spending at the local school. It even makes me more frustrated to see the amount of sub par teachers that are allowed to keep their jobs.

I have witnessed teachers being "kicked upstairs" to administerial positions because of their incompetence as classoom teachers. I've always thought the BEST teachers should be paid more than any adminstrative position...even principals!!!

I am over 65 and have always been astonished that some people believe that they should be exempt from paying for education and many other things. The "I don't USE the library, so why should I pay" etc. etc.. I believe that we are a country that supports the idea that we are in this place together, and together we can give every person an opportunity to meet their potential. The "haves" and the "have-less (or nots)" are very much what is wrong with what is happening around us today. I won't be around to see it, but I sincerely hope that the future will look a great deal different in the ways young people learn more tolerance and respect and CARE for their fellow human beings. And....some of that is being learned in schools because the parents don't know it or live it. Oh dear....maybe this should be over at hot topics; but it is just an opinion

Oh, no, if anything the unions must get stronger! Teachers work very hard for their pay, and most of them are very good at what they do, given the varieties of students they have to educate and the limited resources available to them.

Merit pay? No. It would be impossible to find a fair system by which to evaluate teachers and students, because certainly student test scores and graduation rates cannot work. Though it may be difficult to remove bad teachers, it is not impossible. I have seen it done twice.

No one likes to pay taxes, but they must be paid for the common good. And, yes, I cannot wait until we have "socialized medicine," too! We will finally join the rest of the civilized world when that happens.

Who among us could put a value on the education we received?
I see my school taxes as my way of paying for that education.

Pooh Bear

Teacher's unions are killing us financially, while lowering the ability for a school system to let sub-standard teachers to be let go.
The unions have to go.

I agree Monica 100 %. The unions are the reason the schools are deteriorating at such a fast clip. The money you shovel in, goes to the fat cats . Here in MA. people are taking their kids out of the public schools and opting to put their kids in Charter Schools which out perform the public schools in such dramatic fashion.

Oh, my. I'm sorry some of you seem to see ALL schools in such a bad light. I sub for my home district and for the most part see evidence of only hard-working, dedicated teachers who care very much for their charges. Our school system in this country is inequitable; the schools, even within districts, that have the extra financial support of the parents, have the most opportunities for their students. Some schools have computer teachers and others don't, because of the contributions or lack of the parent association. Until parents are forced to make sure their kids are in school every day and support the teachers, things will not change in the "bad" districts. Thank goodness for the unions! The pay for the union heads is deatable, but there's a very good reason for the union's existence. Private business and their bought-and-paid-for politicians are doing their darndest to funnel school funds toward themselves in several states.

How do you force school administrators to streamline themselves? Schools in California were fortunate to be able to have classes of 20 in grades K-3 for the last decade and a half; the kids benefited tremendously with more individual attention. That is slipping away now, unfortunately because when funds are lowered, it is teachers who are laid off, not administrators.

Aren't Charter Schools funded by the same education $$$$ as the public school system? Also Home Schooling? I read somewhere here in Or that the public school system provides learning materials, teachers and other resources for home schooled kids.Doesn't that take away some of the necessary funding for the 'rest of the students' in the public system?

Is this more of the "haves" (better educated and financially well off) creating a 'cream of the crop' attitude about education? Just asking!!!!

That happened about 2 hours away from me. I saw it on the news and I also have a strong feeling there is more to the story.

I think unions are necessary and have done an awful lot of good. Having said that, there are abuses. Here is another story about Buffalo, which is very close to where I live:

Here is a link that might be useful: Free plastic surgery for teachers

No, I don't see all school districts as bad. And Nanny, if I were financially well off I probably wouldn't be whining about paying school taxes. LOL

Question: Do parents (and others) pay school taxes if they don't own their homes? I don't know the answer.

I agree with Monica, too. It's so hard to fire a teacher, no matter how blatant the bad behavior. Have you all heard of Rubber Rooms? This article is where I first heard of the concept. Since then I've been reading about Rubber Rooms in other locations. Like this one.

Oh, yes, it sure is the teachers, those good-for-nothings on the public dime. Most of them probably just barely got through college anyway and see teaching as an easy way to loaf through life and get paid the big bucks. If we weren't forced to educate all those drug-addicted, lobster-eating kids of cadillac-driving, food-stamp collecting, drunk welfare moms we wouldn't need teachers anyway. We good parents could homeschool our kids better tha public school teachers anyhow, if only there weren't so many stupid gubmint hoops to jump through that make gubmint workers so rich.

Did I miss any cliches or stereotypes? This is kinda fun!

I was a school board member. I 100% agree with what the governor of Wisconsin has done to eliminate the collective bargaining of unions. Teachers are supposed to be professionals, and should be treated as such. If a teacher is doing a good job, why the need for a union? I have seen such horrible teachers that continue to maintain their jobs and postions due to collective bargaining. And both of my children were subjected to their "teaching". And that doesn't even count the negotiations that go on and on. Believe me, it is constant. When I was a board member, we could not budge the union to agree to a pittance of a deductible for medications. The unions are bankrupting our school systems. The greed it sickening. I could go on and on.

I have always been happy to pay school taxes. I am over 65 and retired and always disliked it when an older neighbor complained about taxes for schools, libraries, a new swim center, etc. Those things keep my property value up.

Some questions for those who favor abolishing unions:

What would you consider fair pay for a teacher with a masters degree and 10 years experience? How would you evaluate individual teachers? What criteria? Who would do the evaluating? What recourse would a teacher deemed unacceptable have? Would you make allowances for the differences in student populations? Would teachers of special ed students, gifted students, behavioral ed students be paid on a different scale from teachers of ordinary students? How much time during the school day is appropriate for teacher prep?

Would teachers in inner city schools be paid more or less than teachers in affluent communities? How many students per class/ teacher? Are music teachers worth paying? Phys ed? Librarians?

How do you envision your system working? Be specific, please.

Thank you, Sherrmann! So many people simplify problems in education as they would no other field. It boggles my mind that they can be cavalier about the education of our children, our future. There are waaaaaaaaaay too many variables to make a one-size-fits-all proclamation about the state of education.

We live in an adult community in the Phoenix area. We don't pay school taxes and we also don't vote for school related issues. The city realized that the retired would vote down the higher taxes, so in exchane, we don't vote and also don't pay school taxes. Of course, we can't have anyone under 18 live with us on a permanent basis.
Eileen

Sleeper....The GREED factor is the thing that is bringing this country to its knees. JMHO

I have to admit I don't understand the concept of school taxes or voted for school boards. Here our public schools are funded by both state and federal government out of general tax income and administered by state Departments of Education. Everyone benefits from having an educated population.
I also disagree with the idea that unions are wrecking the country/system. While we do have issues at times with some seemingly bloody-minded unions, on the whole they have benefited all by negotiating better pay and conditions for workers here. I don't belong to a union and likely never will but I benefit from their efforts.
Eileen, so if your adult community doesn't pay school taxes, do they also not consult any medical practitioners, lawyers, realtors, or other professionals whose education was founded in public schools? Or do they restrict themselves to professionals whose education was gained at a time when they were taxpayers? Let's hope they don't all die off.

Ah, yes, nanny, greed. Greed is good, if you have enough money.

A few more questiins for union abolishers:

What kinds of public sector service jobs do you not mind paying for? Police/fire protection? Garbage collection? City sewer and water? Roads? Are your roads maintained by city workers who were educated on the public dime? Do you know how to pave a road or put out a fire?

What about private services...legal, medical, financial, etc. Do you think their prices are fair? I realize one can shop around for cheaper services, but all their fees are within a limited range, set by the practicioners themselves, if not "unionized," at least set by the market. Their fees include the cost of doing business, which includes health insurance and taxes, rent. Do you only use professionals educated privately, k-20, kindergarten through grad school??

Many refuse to buy goods made in China, yet complain about the cost of labor in this country. We want to pay a bare minimum for goods and services, yet do not want to pay a decent wage and complain of inferior quality. We ask workers to "give back" a little in terms of wages and benefits, then pay the executives of failing companies millions in bonuses for keeping down labor costs, and who often times end up shipping out the labor anyway or close the business entirely.

While we are demanding workers give back, we are simultaneously demanding they pay more for their health insurance, yet won't even consider a national plan to lower costs and include everybody. Some want to abolish Social Security while telling workers they must take less in salary, yet save more for their retirements and educate their children privately. Do you pay your cleaning ladies enough that they can afford to do these things and eat, also?

Buy American! But squash pay and benefits, and complain of inferiority, be it goods or services, public or private sector, foreign or domestic.

Unions and fair wages benefit all of society.

We already get an extra exemption on federal taxes because DH is over 65. I don't object to paying school taxes. First of all, we raised 2 kids who got good educations. So we figure we're "paying it back" . And we have the "advantage" of being in a good school district, so our proprty value is pretty high. We aren't looking to sell, but if we were, our home is worth about five times what we paid for it in 1981, mostly because our local school system is one of the best around.

Alisande, here our general fund doesn't pay all that is necessary for the schools. The school districts are forced to do special levies for us to vote for property taxes to pay for our schools. I always vote yes. AND people who DO NO OWN homes DO GET TO VOTE even though they will NOT be paying up.

Just like all our state government agencies, school districts screw up paying for non essential things. I think all our state agencies need some independent auditing.

I think that government should get back to doing what they are supposed to do...
schools, roads, law, fire, emergency... stop spendin $15 MILLION DOLLARS on a 5 hole outhouse (in a building that was already built) , paying $14 MILLION for UGLY artwork at a sewage treatment plant on the backside of a fence, that NO ONE will see. .. ..

Sleeperblues - Couldn't agree more with you! August 1st was the first date that school districts could choose whatever company they wanted to insure their teachers (vs. the Wisconsin Educators Assc.) EVERY district in our area jumped ship and went to private companies because they could save so much money!

My dh despised working for a union company because Joe Schmoe working next to him was getting the same pay for working 1/2 has hard. He was also paying union dues to a union that backed political candiates that he didn't agree with and paying BIG salaries to the head honchos in the union. Why would anyone want to do that? This is not just picking on teachers!! It's unions in general.

Thanks, Juellie. Glad to see another perspective about union greed. I am pro-education, let's make that perfectly clear.

The recall attempt of Gov. Walker is going to cost millions!! Are you telling me that my vote didn't count the first time around just because a certain faction didn't agree with it? And the recall will be unsuccessful, at least according to the polls I have read.

I don't often get involved in political type issues, but when our local school board last year AGAIN asked for a referendum to increase taxes in a town that already have the highest property tax in the area, I decided I needed to do more than just complain. There was more opposition than ever before, but they still won, partly by hiring a "spin doctor", who said the highest possible increase would be $600-700 per year. Ours went up $2,000! We now pay a total of $22,000 per year for the privilege of owning this property! When we bought this house 16 years ago the tax was $7,000. Time to move on!!!

Elisabeth

Elizabeth (and others), I'm in shock!

I wonder how it came to pass that people don't have to pay school taxes if they don't own property. Is it assumed that people pay rent because they can't afford to own a house? That's certainly not always true. I know some people who pay astronomical rents. In fact, most people I know who rent their homes spend much more every month on rent than I could ever afford.

Sherrmann, of course I'm not going answer all your questions. Of course I'm not capable of answering all your questions. I have strong feelings about education, but I'm not trained in the workings of government or community planning, and education reform isn't my life's mission. It is, however, Michelle Rhee's. I'm a member of her organization, Students First. I trust she has worked out the answers.

Interesting discussions and view points. Isn't it good that we can agree or not in a free country.. The main thing I see is be aware of what is going on in your community and the surrounding areas. And do not be afraid to speak out, but know your facts first.

People who pay rent do pay property taxes, in the form of the rent that they pay the landlord who then pays taxes. The renter loses out by not getting an income tax deduction for mortgage interest and property taxes.

But in Canada they get a deduction for paying rent anyway. We don't get a mortgage deduction (I don't think...).

If you don't pay school taxes ...

... do you deserve to have people serve you in stores, offices ... doctors' offices ... hospitals ...

... who've been educated?

Oh, yeah - I guess so ... if they'd been educated in another country/territory.

By the way - renters help pay taxes, as their landlords have to pay school taxes on the house in which they live, and the only way that the renter can avoid it is if the landlord is losing money (i.e. paying the school taxes on that house out of his/her own pocket).

ole joyful ... who had about a seventh of his post-secondary education in N Y ... and doubt whether the fee paid directly covered the whole of the cost

I don't have a complaint with paying my school taxes. I live in an affluent area and our public school system is top notch. I may complain about the difficulty the school board has in removing poor teachers due to the overwhelming power of the union. But for the most part I believe it's a civic duty - even if I didn't have kids. Additionally having this high ranked school system is what has helped keep my property values from dropping as drastically as other communities.

Part of the problem is that for the most part the funding for our schools is primarily based on property values, so homeowners and property owners carry the burden. And renters also pay since the property owner passes along his costs to the renter.

But how would you change it - make it based on income? Seniors would still be paying a good portion of their retirement income to the schools.

Sleeperblues - one more comment on the recall - then I'll probably get called out for switching topics in a thread! (Which I'd be guility of!)

This recall is ridiculous! Talk about sour grapes! And yes, the millions that we will spend on it is despicable.

my opinion (not that anyone has asked!) is that if you didn't vote in the first election, you should NOT be able to vote in the recall. If you didn't care enough then, you should be out of luck! What in the world will we watch when the recall and the presidential elections are over?? What will take the place of all the political ads?

I am quite astonish by Elizabeth's $22,000 tax bill. Oregon is one of the few states that has no sales tax (altho some cities do) and it is a much discussed matter. Our property taxes on our now devalued $257,000 home (worth $197,000)is under $3,000 and includes a recent bond that built a new High School, renovated others, some of them from foundation to roofs; and other past bonds. Every year our city asks us to take on another improvement...like our swimming pools (2) which will most likely pass but a year ago they wanted to put in an aquatic park and the residents protested loudly. Me too! Citizens have the responsibility to hold their representatives accountable and insure that their actions are for the benefit of the residents (IMHO) and not pipe dreams of creating a great tourist attraction and calling themselves visionaries.

Too often, I think, residents and council members get taken in by the idea of creating jobs with tax monies when really their job is to create an atmosphere where companies will create jobs.

I do not have a problem with taxes going to schools. I do have a problem with taxes going to administrative fat cats and to union leaders and lobbyists. I also have a problem with money being syphoned off into the general fund.

So I vote no on every parcel tax increase these days. Enough is enough. I do sympathize with teachers but until they see that their union is part of the problem and not the solution they will have to do without my overall support.

The extra parcel taxes I pay are already more than my actual property tax.

Our city is failing. Our schools are sinking, we have no money to pay for infrastructure, police and fire etc. Yet our city council spent two years studying whether /how to ban plastic bags. I now shop elsewhere. No more.

I hear you WC, our city council spent $300,000 (unauthorized by voters)to study the "aquatic park" when $300,000 would have majorily improved one of our ageing summer only pools that had to be closed last year. The new proposal is that the ageing pool be rebuilt and covered for year-round use(with many up-grades), and up-dating the other outdoor summer only pool. I personally think that the residents will approve that plan as I do. And, added to our real estate taxes.

It also occurs to me that there is a huge cultural and historic difference between those communities in the Eastern states and those here in the West. DH went to Syracuse University in the late 50's and we were so shocked at the school systems back then. We also lived in the greater DC area and North Carolina over the years and found them so 'different' from what we knew as Californians. We never paid for a book and other supplies, so were surprised that families in New York had to.

Many things have changed here in the west especially since California's prop 13 (another story) so changed the more scocialist leanings. OUR expectation of having government supplied services is just different...I believe, so maybe that allows us to be more willing to pay the piper. Just thinking.