There are not left and right versions of facts, sorry. People may interpret them differently. Whether you appreciate it or not, I will say that you often seem to give added weight and belief to sites that are highly questionable and you seem to question well-respected sources. It certainly does not appear that you are open to the "whole of the news" as evidenced by your comment that the CNBC link was a liberal media source. I was offering you a reputable source and actually chose not to link Clinton's own website as I doubted you would trust that. No worries. From now on, I will SOB your posts. I do hope you can find the answers you seek.

eta. How can anyone have any sort of discussion with anyone who believes in "versions of facts"? That is impossible. See CindyMac's definition. Are you seriously going to try to argue that point? Like Trump, you are creating your own private reality. Spin is opinion and slant. Facts are facts. Two completely different things. I am sorry you don't understand that.

Actually, this election is becoming less about spin and more about facts than most. If you really care about facts.

Trump, Gingrich, and Rudy 9/11 have 9 wives and countless mistresses between them. Rudy said today "everybody cheats." This is the party of personal responsibility? Now they are saying Hillary cheated on Bill?

As they say, today was the day Trump drove his trainwreck over the cliff.

If jterrilynn didn't care about the truth, she wouldn't question things. What an absurd point of view.

Catty, and Cyn there is no point in being rude. I have not been rude to you.

Absolutely. And I don't think I have ever seen you be rude. Only contribute intelligently to a conversation.

People need to think independently. This is just sad.

There is nothing rude in either Cattyles or Cyn's comments. You seem to have a problem understanding the meaning of "fact" which basically negates any opportunity to have a legitimate discussion.

Cindy, what facts are you even speaking of? I was asking questions. I never made a point of saying I didn't believe anything in particular, just that I like to get deeper.

Do you even listen to what you say?

The left have their versions of the facts and the right have their versions of the facts. You do know that right?

Nonsensical BS.

I agree it's probably best to SOB your posts.

Okay, you are right! There are never ever parts of stories left out to show something as fact. You win. Although I'm agnostic I will take everything YOU tell me as the gospel.

It's hard to understand how anyone can be undecided when the two parties have very little in common today. You should know if you align with one party or the other on most issues. The issues are the same as they've always been because we don't solve problems in this country. Though with the Republican party being so fractured, it's hard to know what they believe. I wouldn't even care what Trump believes in because he's so erratic and I doubt he'd have much power or even make it through one term. You might look more closely at Pence since he has long, close ties to the Koch brothers and he's their pick. I believe Paul Ryan and other Republican elites are just waiting for an opportunity to get Trump out and put Pence in.

Both Hillary and Donald are rich and have rich friends. Hillary has management/ staff people skill problems . Sometimes she lies for no reason (sniper fire and other) I can see Donald having a hard time with the "deal" when it's in a whole new arena outside of Realestate and the channels that would entail. He's used to getting things done like yesterday.

I don't know...

Edited to add:

May, don't know if you are addressing me but as I have stated before I will most likely vote 3rd party. I dislike both candidates a lot. However, right to the end I will try to find a reason not to vote 3rd party, hold my nose and choose. Maybe.

I was addressing you. If you don't see much difference in the candidates, vote for the party you most closely align with, at least on the issues that are most important to you.

May, On social issues I'm middle left but I'm fiscally a right lean. I want our country to do good things but only if we can afford it. We can't just keep going deeper in dept. So, I hope you can see my dilemma, especially since I think not much of either candidate.

Edited to add: I do know what each side is promising I just don't know if I believe them.

Snookums, I totally agree that it's sad. Can you help explain to her?

Her? Lol, you crack me up Catty!

I had an eye opening experience last night. I woke up at 2 am and couldn't get back to sleep. I was flipping channels and saw something called "Justice with Judge Jeanine"...thinking it was going to be a crime solver or a Judge Judy type show, I tuned in. Well was I surprised! She went on this angry screed against Hillary and how she destroys women like I've never seen. If this was my only source for news and I believed everything she said, I'd be building my bunker and stocking it with supplies right now! You'd think we lived in the middle of Beirut and that the 4 horsemen were already riding...with of course hillary in the lead. Somehow trump was largely ignored unless it was to compare how much worse she is. And in terms of bringing up bill's cheating, she went there big time including accusing him of rape.

I think DH is right. The media outlets are not only not on the same planet, they are not in the same galaxy.

You can see what I saw here, but with a warning, this may be disturbing to viewers. It certainly was to me.

" Hillary has management/ staff people skill problems ."

All evidence is to the contrary. HRC has many friends she's had since childhood and college, and staff which is intensely loyal to her.

I think the problem HRC has is having had a lot of myth, made-up nonsense, mud piled on top of her in order to bury her and that it's been so relentless for decades that it has sunk into the psyche of a lot of Americans.

And yes, that is a very difficult thing to overcome. But evidence and reality don't support it.

ETA: Trump, on the other hand, boasts about having no friends, and his campaign has undergone multiple firings and other changes in personnel.

Annie, are you saying you watched a woman destroying another woman over destroying women?

Hmmmm....interesting.

Justerrilynn, no dilemma for you! If you look at spending under Democratic and Republican admins., you'll see that it's actually Democratic admins who control and lower spending/deficit more than Republican admins. so that is yet another myth, that Republicans are the fiscally responsible party, that has persisted.

jterri, if it's fiscal conservatism you want, trump is not going to get you there. His budget plan of more supply side economics will have huge negative consequences for the economy. To paraphrase PJ O'Rourke, if she's wrong, at least it's within normal parameters.

Going way back to the original post for a minute....

At one time I would have thought Trump going there with Bill would have been the most desperate and ill-advised thing a serious candidate trying to appear presidential could do.

But now he has actually gone on the trail claiming Hillary has been unfaithful! He's rallying support with public declarations slandering a woman candidate with adultery - with no basis in facts.

You would have thought this was "jumping the shark." There seems to be nothing he can do or say to make his followers question whether ANYTHING he has been claiming is factual. They seem perfectly content to entrust their and their children's lives in the hands of someone who sees them as reality TV viewers.

I shake my head in disbelief....

Boy, I wish Judge Jeanine was running against Hillary instead of Trump! j/k :)

What is impossible is to have a meaningful conversation with people who can not grasp what another person is saying, who are unwilling or unable to stop groping at semantics. It really isn't that hard to understand what jterrilynn means when she says people have their own versions of 'the facts'.

This seems to be the crux, or the crutch, of these hot topics arguments. You really don't strike a win that way.

I usually hate these threads so I SOB but I couldn't let the fact argument go unchallenged. A fact is a fact. Unless it is presented out of context or if other important facts related to the fact are not disclosed. Then the fact turns into a lie by omission. We are hearing plenty of "facts" from both sides.

If anyone else saw the meme mentioned in this article, they will find this backstory quite interesting:

https://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/9/30/1576271/-Art-professor-s-viral-quote-poignantly-encapsulates-the-double-standards-between-Trump-Clinton

I give up - what's SOB ( I do know what S.O.B. means & I know it's not that!) - stay on background?

& I think there's a problem when outright falsehoods are interpreted by many as 'facts'. The false equivalency is obvious.

Scroll on by. It's not that easy, since threads contain a lot of responses, reactions, and quotes of posts you might want to ignore.

SOB = scroll on by (I think.)

SOB. Scroll On By ... These are words I've come to live by this election cycle. I simply cannot allow Donald Trump - and all that he is and all that surrounds him - to invade my thoughts and take up any valuable room in my brain anymore. I actually get a seizing feeling in my stomach whenever I read about him or happen to hear him speak in his horrible, horrible manner. I can't remember when I felt so sickened by another human being, and it shames me to harbor this kind of hatred in my heart.

Turning off and tuning out has saved my sanity. Am I uninformed? Probably. Am I happier because of it? Most definitely.

Ida, I feel much the same. And then I can't help but think of Hitler & all the vile people who've come into power in the past. Studying history, I always wondered how good people who knew better didn't unify to stop them.

And, yes, I do feel Trump fits that mold.

Having learned all I can about him, I am convinced he doesn't really want the job. I believe what he wants is to Win the Presidency. And he is willing to do whatever needs be to win - damn the damage to our Country in the process.

If he does prevail, my guess is he will find a way to step down and hand the job off to Pence, content that he was clever enough to work the system and go down in history as having Won.

"olliesmom

Boy, I wish Judge Jeanine was running against Hillary instead of Trump! j/k :)"

Olliesmom, this Jeanine Pirro? The prosecutor whose husband was sentenced to 29 months for tax evasion?

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/11/02/nyregion/pirro-sentenced-to-29-months-in-us-prison.html

Bill may have cheated on Hill, but Jeanine's husband cheated on all of us.

Please, Ipink. the Clintons have been put through more hell and scrutiny and BS and investigations and nonsense than any pol...ever.

I wouldn't go making it sound like their political lives have been a walk in the park.

I think this list sums up the Republican Party's ongoing issues with Hillary.

all the terrible things hillary clinton has done in one big list

The GOP leadership(who in my opinion are the biggest misogynists ever) just can't stand the thought of a woman president.

Lol, zarinalex. That about sums it up.

But in reality, it's this:

How Richard Nixon Created Hillary Clinton

Nov 5, 2015 5:00 AM EST

As a young lawyer, she helped investigate Watergate. For the First Woman of American politics, those chickens are always coming home to roost.

http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/features/2015-11-05/how-richard-nixon-created-hillary-clinton

I doubt the poor Clintons need me to lay off them, I think they'll be OK. Besides, I voted for BC three times, (once in a primary) and he called me on the phone all the time last election to remind me to vote Democratic, (which I did) so I think we are good. If HC's only answer to questions about her judgement, looking the other way on bad behavior and her understanding of how technology works is "Stop picking on me," well cry me a river. A savvy politician would know that this was an opportunity to put a positive spin on her abilities in those areas. When preparing for a job interview or debate, one must be prepared to address one's greatest weaknesses, because that's exactly what you can expect the opposition to do. "That's unfair" is DT's line.

Just read this...

http://www.caller.com/opinion/editorials/our-support-for-hillary-clinton-is-enthusiastic-3da79118-75be-1951-e053-0100007f9177-395461761.html

I've never heard HRC say, "Stop picking on me" or the like (I HAVE heard Trump say things to that effect).

All I've heard and seen her do in response to the endless onslaught of something that happened 25 years ago was to say NOTHING and keep it in its proper place....in her marriage, which has NOTHING to do with her ability or qualifications to be president.

and for a bunch of philanderers to be going after her over this so completely smacks of gross sexism. Blame the wives for our having cheated on them!

Good grief.

You know, I don't think it is a coincidence, at all, that the right chose a racist as their candidate to follow Barack Obama and a rabid sexist and misogynist to run against HRC.

Here's another way of looking at the candidates...makes sense to me.

EDITED to add: makes sense to me that this is a way to present the candidates to someone who doesn't like any candidate.

Kevin Bartini wrote on Facebook;

"Trump is a malignant tumor. He's repulsive, he's dangerous and left unchecked he will kill everything he comes in contact with.

Hillary is chemotherapy. Yes she makes you sick. Yes she will make your skin crawl and your hair fall out. But when faced with a tumor the smart choice is chemotherapy.

Jill Stein and Gary Johnson are herbs from the Far East and prayer. There is no way they will beat the tumor and even having them as an option makes the chances of losing everything to this cancer all the more realistic.

Please everyone lets just take some chemo for now and then all work together to make sure that next time we route out the tumor at the beginning so that we never need to choose chemo again."

Hillary Clinton does not make me sick and I've never understood the hatred of her to the degree that people seem to have. I don't know why people feel they have to put this qualifier on her, that she is one outrageously horrible person, because she isn't. It's just decades of the right wing hammering away at her and hoping that negative force they've created around her sinks into the American psyche, and sadly it has. And example of that is suggesting that she has ever asked people to "Stop picking on me." She never has. She's never even said anything remotely like that. But compared to who is she such a monster? I don't get it.

Wow, I don't know who the heck Kevin Bartini is but I find that analogy horribly repugnant for everyone and fantastically insensitive.

I edited my post....I think that the analogy works for voters who do not like any of the candidates.

And think that the current administration has been a disaster.

I am a Hillary supporter and a fan of the President.

And then I can't help but think of Hitler & all the vile people who've come into power in the past. Studying history, I always wondered how good people who knew better didn't unify to stop them.

I hear ya. But I guarantee I'll be voting. I made my mind up long ago as to whom I'd be voting for. That said, there's really no other avenue in which to unify to stop a horror such as Trump - and as a Texan, I won't be unified with the majority of my fellow residents - but I'll vote, without fail.

I just can't abide the hideous rhetoric spewing from those pursed fish lips. Just thinking about him - merely allowing a thought of DT to enter my brain - is most unpleasant. Not a good way to live, so I have made it my practice to immediately switch gears.

So here's a sweet little palate cleanser.

Tra la la ...

"And think that the current administration has been a disaster"

You mean the administration that pulled us out of a horrible recession, and quite possibly averted a depression?

I am an Obama groupie, a (new) fan of Hillary and deeply anguished by DJT.

But even I would not call him a cancerous tumor, and my main gripe is that if I or someone I loved had cancer I would find that analogy a little too flippant.

Jen, I get what you're saying, but what the he!! are you going to do if, God forbid, that despicable human being actually gets elected?

I think we are gonna have to stockpile more kitten photos ...

Here's another cleanser.

I think i'm going to make Donald's apparent overestimation of his own brain's "smart" level a campaign issue.

If he is (God forbid) elected, I'll have to learn to live with reality somehow. I still have a hard time envisioning his election as a possibility, much less a probability.

Like I said before, I'm voting for HC and I'm basing my opinions on
what she says and does, not what someone else says about her. I've
followed her political career for decades. Asking legitimate questions about judgement and competence is not equating the candidate to a "monster." I pay zero attention to the caricatured talking points on HC from her opponents. Asking legitimate questions about judgement and competence is not putting a qualifier on her or intimating that she is outrageously horrible. And telling a left wing democrat that they are part of that " right wing hammering away at her and hoping that negative force they've created around her sinks into the American psyche" seems a little bit overwrought to me to put it as delicately as I can. It is true, I have never heard HC ask someone to literally stop picking on her, but it seems to me like you are intimating Tibbrix, that I am picking on HC and asking me to stop. Forgive me if I am misinterpreting your remarks. It's not a particularly interesting discussion to me, sorry to say, because there is nothing true or positively impressive to me in that line of defense of HC. So if you want to shut down discussion, mission accomplished on my end.