We upgraded most of our wiring in November when we started remodeling the kitchen. What we had was quite a patchwork. I didn't realize how inadequate it was until I got new circuits. We also got a whole new breaker box and increased the current into the house. I used to have problems with the lights dimming every time a turned on an appliance in the kitchen, but no more. My har dryer used to trip a breaker, now we don't have that problem. We spent a little over $3,000. If you can afford it, it is definitley best to get the whole house done at one time.

It depends, I think. Your inspector was right, to a point ("shouldn't fix what isn't broken"). If your wiring is in good shape, and it hasn't been junctioned everywhere or tied into new, etc., etc., there's not reason *integral* cloth covered wire won't work. But grounded wire into old? How do you know the grounds were installed properly?

The problem occurs when the wire covering is worn, and/or there are all kinds of mickey mouse tie ins. So evaluate it based on that (your comment about it going all over the place is telling, I think). Further, in this area, insurance companies are making noises that they won't write new policies for knob-and-tube wiring. That's not an issue until you go to sell it and the buyer can't get home owner's insurance. Then it becomes a BIG issue.

Whether or not such a provision would stand up in court is anybody's guess, but in the long run, you might be better off just biting the bullet and dealing with it.

I have a thread running on this page about old wiring in a house I'm considering purchasing.

I upgraded cloth wire to three conductor Romex in my present home, and the cloth wire was only two conductor, no ground wire. The house I'm looking to purchase also has cloth wire and all the circuits are not grounded, although all the receptacles have three prong plug-ins. As DruidClark says, I also would question if wiring is grounded, when you have cloth wiring.

Ted

Sorry, it was in the Electrical Forum.

Ted

we know it that the majority of the house is grounded because the majority of the house is actually new wiring. The old fabric stuff goes to the front bedroom and an old porch. The remainder of the house appears to be new wiring. We can see the ground in the basement.
The only two times we have tripped the breaker is when i was vacuuming and my husband decided to plug in a barn heater to warm the mudroom (to dry the floor) and when my husband decided to make expresso when I was blow drying my hair.
Expresso machines draw alot of power!!
We don't have any knob and tube wiring (well ok, i haven't SEEN any)
Ya our wiring does run around. However we have a pool too and electric running to the garage and the pool.
Maybe I can take a picture. What I think may be a big mess may not be.
Also when you have an electrition update your electric do they have to ruin the walls? Can they just use the old wiring that is in the wall to pull up the new wiring ..? It seems like it would be a very confusing and hard job.
Thanks Ted, i will look in the electical forum.
-renee

In my house the old wiring is cloth insulated inside flexible metal shielding -- is this what you have? If so, the metal shielding provides the ground, assuming it's connected properly. The shielding should be clamped to the box, so the ground runs through the metal box itself -- then you just run a bare copper ground wire from the box to the outlet. You can buy a tester for a few bucks at home depot that will tell you if the outlet is actually grounded.

If the cloth insulation is frayed at the connection points, this can be easily checked and remedied with electric tape or heat-shrink insulation. I think the only reason to replace the wiring is if your circuits are overloaded (you should map out all your circuits to determine whether this is the case). Or, if you happen to be doing a big project (kitchen or bath) where you're gutting walls anyway, you might as well replace wiring at that time.

"f so, the metal shielding provides the ground, assuming it's connected properly."

Not exactly. The very old armored cable (called 'BX') had some serious problems when used as a ground. The impedance is often to high to trip a breaker or blow a fuse even with a dead short to the armor.
While the newer cables look the same AC (armor clad) and MC (metal clad) are built differnetly. AC has a thin bonding strip that touches the armor all along the length. It is not directly used as a conductor (it is just broken off at the end of a run) but it provides a low impedance path for fauklt currents and prevents the famed 'armor heater' from occuring.
Smiople test with a meter (or circuit checker) do not place enough load onto the ground path to verify if it is adequate. If old BX is present, it should be replaced or GFCI receptacles can be used to create a safer system.
If the cable is newer AC it provides a good ground path and you can ground to the metal device box. Older boxes may need to be drilled and tapped, or sometime just tapped, to take a green 10-32 screw to ground the device to the box.

My husband does the work so I am not sure what the cloth wiring looks like. I know it it is just an offwhite looking cloth wrapped around the wires and he said to never touch it. (duh! Sometimes I think he thinks I am stupid)
How do you know how many outlets are too many for a circuit? We do have separate circuits for our stove (which we don't use because it is gas) and for our clothes dryer. So that is a good sign. We seem to have 2 rooms per circuit about. I just know this because I can rememember what rooms turn off when my husband turns off the breaker.

brickeyee,

"If old BX is present, it should be replaced"

Are you saying that any old BX should be replaced? That's not the advice I've received from several electricians or my home inspector. I have a fair amount of BX throughout my house. I have no doubt you're correct about the technical superiority of modern wiring, but are you saying the BX is dangerous enough to justify the expense of replacing it all?

I think electrical upgrades are a worthwhile modernization.

The first improvement we made to our Victorian was upgrading to 200 amp, including a new line from the pole to the house. I knew I would be remodeling the kitchen, putting vent fans in bathrooms, using computers, installing central air, etc. Every contractor who worked on the house breathed a sigh of relief when they saw that big shiny new circuit box.

We eventually replaced all of the knob-and-tube wiring in the house, because we wanted to insulate the attic floor with blown-in cellulose. Undisturbed knob-and-tube is generally safe, but I was told it could cause fires if you insulate over it. I lucked out and found a real craftsman of an electrician, who took personal pride in fishing the new wires throughout the house without disturbing historic fabric.

I felt best about upgrading the wiring, though, when we put in the new kitchen. Turns out the previous owners had connected almost every outlet to a single knob-and-tube line, and there were actually scorch marks inside the wall. I instantly got a couple of new gray hairs when I saw that.