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Husband flirting on facebook - Help Please - sorry it's so long

gifgurl
13 years ago

My husband and I have been married for nearly 15 years, but the last year, since he discovered the networking site Facebook, has been horrible. He has made friends with lots of women and spends every evening chatting with them for hours. He has become secretive, and I know that he has been lying to me. I once used the pc after him, and while doing so, pressed the 'paste' button, only to find a message that my husband had typed to one on his 'friends', which said about how happy she made him, how gorgeous she was, sending her hugs and kisses, etc,

I will admit this freaked me out, and although I know it is wrong, I now check his email and look at his facebook page to see what these women are saying to him and sending him. I feel really bad for doing it, but I feel I would rather find something myself than be the gullable idiot that sits here totally unawares while he is planning to run off with his girlfriend.

We have had arguments about this, but he says these women are only friends and he has a right to be friends with who he wants - which is true. He says he is doing nothing wrong, but I know he is lying to me about some things. He always turns the argument back on me, so that I am at fault for wanting him to not have friends, spying on him, nagging him, etc. I don't mind him having friends, I just don't want him flirting with them, sending them kisses and completely ignoring me for hours on end. He lies to them about us also, he says we never have sex (we do, but not as often since we started arguing), and that I don't enjoy any of the things he likes doing, like camping (I do), and re-enactment (no, but surely we don't have to do everything together?), he says I nag him constantly and makes he out to be a complete tyrant, but I don't nag and I do everything I can to make him happy, I always have.

Now I've found that one of the women works in a local shop and he makes excuses to go to the shop as much as possible to see her. And another has changed her status from 'single' to 'in a relationship' this morning after he was chatting to her all last night.

If you had asked me a year ago, I would have said he was completely trustworthy and would never cheat, but now I spend all my time thinking, will today be the day he says he's leaving me? I spend hours crying and feel so lonely and desparate. Even though I've tried to tell him how I feel, he doesn't seem to care how much this is hurting me and how betrayed I feel. The last time we argued about it he said I was going to push him away if I kept bringing it up and he didn't want to discuss it again. He says he loves me and wants to be with me, but I'm so confused I don't know what I can believe any more.

Am I just being totally stupid and paranoid? How can I make him see how much this is hurting me? And how can I do it without ruining my marriage? Or do I just have to put up with it if I want to keep him. I love him so much. I just wish he loved me as much as I love him.

Please help me.

Comments (72)

  • silversword
    13 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    I'm on facebook. And on MySpace. I've never used it for anything but a glorified "pen-pal" site for my friends. My ex used it for "fishing".

    It's the same as going to a bar and "hanging out" with your best friends, or "flirting" with strangers.

    As Carla said "What site he's using to form these special relationships is irrelevant."

    It's all about INTENTION.

  • catlettuce
    13 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    "He said I was paranoid and should speak to my GP about going back on antidepressants"

    Excuse me? He said what?

    I would have told him maybe he needs to go on viagra so he can last longer. What a loser he is. Seriously that was a nasty and condescending statement meant to make you question your emotional state and feelings. What a crock. No way would I try to dress sexy and make him want me-Yuck.

    I agree you need counseling to get stronger and realize your feelings are yours and you have good reason to feel them. Maybe check out some CODA mettings online. There are two people in a marriage and they BOTH have the right to be happy. Otherwise why bother?

    Here's hoping you get stronger and don't put up with another 15 years of this nonsense.

    ~Cat

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  • iloveexercise
    13 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Carla35,I think tracystroke is referring to what I wrote about these social sites being the death to many marriages and relationships.
    And I have been on both facebook and my space~and while it is not the sites themeselves,they certainly make it EASY for anyone who would WANT to cheat was what I was trying to point out.
    And if you(tracystroke) dont think cheating can happen with old classmates too,then you're kidding yourself.BTW,facebook is NOT just for old classmates.

  • tracystoke
    13 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    I did wonder how many of you would pipe up and to admit being on facebook,cant be that unhealthy a site then can it,all you married people.
    My point was if somebody is going to be unfaithful then they will ,and there isnt a great deal you can to to stop it.

  • silversword
    13 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Tracy, no one disagrees with you there. Carla put it best:

    "...I don't think anyone here has a problem with Facebook per se, just what he is doing on Facebook."

  • straycat_wandering
    13 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Unfortunately...if someone is going to be unfaithful they will find a way. Facebook, dating site, or office party...it's going to happen if they open themselves up to an affair. In fact, I have heard from more than one person male and female that married men/women are considered the "best"-they bring gifts, don't stay the entire night, and they know where they are when they are not with them. Sad to think someone would use a marriage as a "comfort zone" in a relationship-but I am sure it's true, because I've heard it again and again.

  • iloveexercise
    13 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Tracystoke,I said I HAD been on facebook and my space~~PAST TENSE.I'am not anymore.

  • johnny52
    13 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    I just got on Facebook because of another family member. So far I hadn't uploaded a picture or bothered to fill out details at all. Ask me again in a few weeks.

    By the way I AM a web junkie.

  • western_pa_luann
    13 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    I have been on Facebook for a year now (And love it, btw!)... and still have no desire to be unfaithful to my husband.

    Imagine that...

  • asolo
    13 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Throw your actual face and personal info up on ANY public site....for ANY reason? Idiocy! Stupid and dangerous. Sometimes I'm certain I live in a nation of fools.

    Do any of you have any cop-friends? Ask them about facebook.

  • stargazzer
    13 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    a few years back i was reading in a thread about the danger of posting personal info on the net such as pics of children. someone said it wasn't safe, someone replied that it was as long as you didn't give out personal information. well the guy came back with the other guy's personal info. he gave enough info to show him he had found his name address and phone #. talk about shocked.

  • western_pa_luann
    13 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    "Do any of you have any cop-friends? Ask them about facebook."

    ummm.... two of my friends (personal and on Facebook) are PA state police, two more are FBI. What would you like me to ask them?

    Oh, and their college age kids are there too!

  • unmidfulhusband
    13 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Well Ladies,
    I have to say. I too have over time taken the same steps as some of your spouses have and indulged in Face book, MySpace, and so on. During my time doing so. I have never not once pondered the effect that my actions may have had on my wife. I knew she didnt like it and had pretty much the same issues as most of you and more.
    MY desire was never to hurt my wife. Lord knows I love her more then I have the capacity to convey to her. But something happens to me. I wonÂt speak for anyone else, and will only say the following about me and my intent and mindset.
    1. It started very innocently and then turned into a battle of wills between her and myself.
    2. That even after my wife told me it hurt her that I thought is so silly and childish that I continued to do it.
    3. That I found the attention I was receiving from the women from my past and even others. Really made myself esteem felt great.
    4. That had my wife done the same thing to me. I would have flipped out and divorced her.
    5. There was never not once any incident where I ever thought of becoming involved or meeting anyone of them.
    6. That the idea of my wife being jealous made me feel a bit more wanted and loved by her. "I know Its Sick"
    7. in the end. My love of my wife and my honest self review. Made the need for me to delete said accounts a paramount decision.
    Ladies I can only say that a talk to you husband while not demanding he delete the accounts and you being loving and soft. That approach by her toward me did nothing but drive the point home that these very sexy, loving, beautiful women I stood before god and married. Was hurt and it was because my actions that she felt this way.
    I love my wife. I have always loved her. I would never want to reap what I have sown. My heart goes out to you all. From one man who has been down this road and regrets it terribly. I am so sorry. You all deserve much more then to worry about your heart and love that you so selflessly give to us.
    Honey. I love you. I am sorry. I would never ever want to even breathe a day in this world without you in my life. My sun rises and sets with you. Vicky. Baby. I am so sorry and love you so much.
    YouÂre Husband
    Charlie

  • yaneverknow777
    13 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    If they are using any of those sites to meet the opposite sex then they are being disloyal to you. Are they by chance texting a lot on there phones as well? I put up with this sort of thing for years. I don't think I could count on two hands the number of online relationships she probably had and how many of those were possibly physical. I turned a blind eye to it blaming it on the fact she was young and would grow out of it. Wrong.
    The old rule of "trust your gut" should be followed. You don't trust them that is why you are questioning it. They need to make a choice. You, or the online stuff. If you do not have full access to there accounts and are not invited to sit there while they have these conversations then do yourself a favor and leave. It is hard but that will be the only way you have peace of mind.

  • mtnwomanbc
    13 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Without meaning to hijack, this thread has been very helpful to me today -- I don't want to start a new topic when this one has clarified so many things.

    My situation and why all your posts above have been helpful in sorting out my thoughts:

    DH has just recently reconnected via FB with a GF from 31+ years ago, who is evidently happily married with 3 children, but she's also totally into FB with a lot of people. They started IM'ing thru FB, then phone calls and emails, had lunch last week, and are planning on meeting for a walk this week. I started getting really upset despite his saying she was just his "friend", but the length of time he has been spending on FB with her made me sick with worry. I also noted exchanges of FB "hugs".

    Yesterday I installed keyboard stroke recording software, which I felt horrible about, but I just felt I had to know at least what he was saying to her before this situation gets out of hand. Sure enough, his IM messages included language -- at least from his end -- regarding staring into each other's eyes but knowing the boundaries, if reincarnated they'd be soulmates, signing off "I love you", etc., etc. I know he doesn't love her, except as a "friend", he just loves the idea of being so special and new to someone he knew so long ago.

    I can't tell him about the keyboard software, but I am putting my foot down tonight. I've given him enough rope and he's just about hung himself. I don't believe he wants an affair, but in my mind he's already being emotionally unfaithful. Enough's enough.

    DH and I have worked through many challenges with each other, but I know that we do love each other. I think this thing came around due to the "special" feelings FB communication can provide with IM and damaging (if misused) tools for developing new, instantly "deep" relationships. Also, 31+ years ago their dating relationship was abruptly halted by her family for religious reasons -- DH and his family did not have any contact with her family for all this time. I think there's a bit of "what if" going thru DH's head right now. I didn't meet DH until 10 years after that part of his life.

  • believer
    13 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Any relationship that is held in secrecy, without your spouse's knowledge or approval is dangerous to your marriage. I do not believe that there is any thing innocent about flirting when you are 1/2 of a married couple.

    My SD33 found out that her husband was on the internet with "friends" that were women. She then found out that he had a separate bank account so that he could pay to talk to these "friends" that were women. Then she came home one day and caught him with his pants down around his ankles while he was online with one of his women "friends". She left him. He didn't care. He said he much preferred having relationships like that because he "didn't need anyone".

    I asked my husband if I could join one of those high school reunion things online. If he had said that he didn't want me to I would not have. (So far it has been a rip off. LOL)

    Internet things like fb and ms can be quick sand to someone that is vulnerable or out looking for the wrong thing. You have to be so very careful.

  • pjb999
    13 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    I agree social networking sites can be a black hole, and can lead to some undesirable things also, but not for everyone.

    My wife's best friend from high school (female) is new to the internet so is of course trying everything including emails that begin with "fw:fw:fw this is really funny/help stop crime" or whatever....and persuaded her to join facebook.

    My soul mate goes on some evenings but it's not a big deal. She has reconnected with lots of her old friends, and lots of her current friends are on it too. If I come in and ask her to join me in the living room, or to make love or share a coffee or whatever, I know she will.

    I trust her implicitly. We actually met online, not a dating site, just a chatroom and I was living on the other side of the world (hailed from same country originally) and I was at the tail end of my marriage. It had degraded to a depressing joke and I had begged my ex to go into counselling with me and wouldn't, she considered it was all 'normal' yet we had no friendship, no intimacy, and if it wasn't right for me, it wasn't right for either of us, right?

    Anyway, long story short, I trust the love of my life because we had a sort of "pinky swear" moment - neither of us hid anything from each other and we agreed that we would never part, or give each other any cause to worry or distrust each other, ever. I know it sounds naive but we both just know we can. Both of us were married before, in disastrous marriages so both learned a lot. People around us often comment on how much in love we are (and it's 7 years just about)

    When she signed up for facebook, as a computer person I made some suggestions - firstly, to use her maiden name (most of her old friends know her by that name anyway) and not to show her real birth date. Those two things are the first things to consider to keeping you and your information safe. I know it sounds odd not using your name but if you do, as previous poster said, it's verrry easy to track you down. She doesn't even have photos on at the moment. Have I checked her profile to see if she's "married" or "single and looking?" or whatever? No.

    She just called me and said she'd forgotten she had something on at school tonight and she'll be late. Again, I am not troubled by it and trust her. Without that trust we'd have nothing, and having that trust is like an enormous boost in your life, it's palpable and real and I suspect not unlike religious faith, in a way.

    I sort of would like to join FB myself, just to be connected with people back home, but value my privacy too much.

    What prompted me to post was mtnwomanbc's admission she's installed keylogging software on the computer.

    Let me just say, I don't condone people cheating on anyone else, and I should know, I don't condone dishonesty etc either, but if you spy on your partner, you get what you deserve. I am sure nobody does such a thing unless they have some sort of gut feeling, and if they do, much better to discuss it with partner.

    In many ways, something like installing a keylogger would be grounds for divorce, right there IMHO.

    I would also venture to say, be careful with generalisations. Indeed men and women are equal but different, but don't indulge in this "men are....men do...men never....men always..." - it's very toxic and I'm certain women don't like men generalising about them either - a big part of the feminist war was fought on this very point - let's aim for something different and better for everyone, rather than just turning the tables.

    Rant off. Thanks.

  • carla35
    13 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    I don't know pjb, no matter how many times you say it or how many different ways you imply it, the fact that you have to mention it so much sort of suggests that maybe you don't really or fully trust your 'soul mate'. I just found your whole post kind of defensive for no real reason.

    Maybe the fact that you met your soul mate on line while you were still married has something to do with not being able to totally trust in the relationship. I don't know; I'm not sure how you could trust a woman that was carrying on with a married man on line (and I'm not sure why she would trust you) but I guess since she's your one and only soul mate, you're just gonna have to.

    I have a different view on faithfulness; it's not just about being in love and not wanting to be with anyone else -- but it's about not putting yourself in situations where you may want to be with other people. It's knowing that you shouldn't be chatting on line with other women when your marriage appears to be falling apart. I know, I know you have good excuses, she was just a friend, etc... but, come on, that's how affairs start, and how marriages going through rocky times totally fall apart and why they often end.

  • amyfiddler
    13 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Facebook makes it reeeeeally easy to spark a flame. It happens all the time, not always intentionally, but if you are not the watchguard of your marriage, who will be?

    I canceled my account after one too many stories reaching my ears of partners in pain. I don't need that kind of drama in my life. If my childhood BFF wants me in her life so badly, she can look me up in the white pages.

    And soul mates are made, not found. Certainly not when you're still married.

  • pjb999
    13 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    I'm not sure how I conveyed being 'defensive' - I was just trying to say how it was.

    My marriage was over, it was finances keeping us together. I had made it quite clear that I did not consider what we had was a marriage. She herself would often say she wanted a divorce and indulged in some pretty cruel behaviour.

    Still, I was not looking. Not at all. It was fate and when I realised I had feelings for this person I told my ex it was over, immediately. My wife and I discussed my then-situation fully and frankly. If I could have done things differently I would have but that's just how things were.

    I absolutely trust my partner and in the relationship. I guess I was at pains to spell it out which somehow gave the opposite impression?? I guess what I was trying to say was, facebook isn't for everyone. I am ok with my wife being on it, because I trust her, absolutely. I still can't see where you read anything else into it unless you find my absolute faith in my partner disturbing.

    Since there is no way of saying how a soul mate, if you believe in them works, you just believe whatever you like about them. All I know is I met mine in a one in a gazillion chance. There was no way we would have ever met under normal circumstances. I am very grateful that we did meet.

    I agree if someone really wants to make contact with you they ought to pick up the phone. The other downsides I see to facebook is the risk of identity theft, hence not using current surname or birthday. It is very very easy to steal an identity a little bit at a time and facebook/myspace are favourite sources.

    Some people can become addicted to social networking sites too, putting all their time into them.

    I am curious neither of you commented on the issue I was mostly raising, the ethical issue of spying on your partner. Even if your suspicions are proven right, I don't think that justifies stepping over that line. My whole contention is by taking such actions, (spying) you might actually make something happen.

  • carla35
    13 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    I do believe in soul mates... but I also believe that some relationships are doomed from the beginning if they are begun under the wrong circumstances.

    "It was fate and when I realised I had feelings for this person I told my ex it was over"....see what I mean it wasn't really over until you developed feelings for someone else while you were married. I guess you won the lottery and all your finacial problems ended right there and then too. I've heard it before.. it was over, we weren't sleeping together, we just stayed together for the sake of the kids, the finances, the insurance...on and on... but it wasn't over, you didn't file for divorce or even a separation... And you were, if nothing else, having an emotional affair with someone else while you were married. Your post itself serves as a good example of why people shouldn't be chatting on line with members of the opposite sex.

    Quite honestly, and in your case, it may have been a good idea if your Ex wife had used spy wear from the start... it may have saved your marriage if your computer affair was nipped in the bud. Because you know how hard it is for a wife to compete with her husband's soul mate that he just innocently happened to meet on line (what are the chances?). I'm just glad your real soul mate wasn't the nurse who helped deliver your second child (now that could have been really awkward).

    I can't believe when people cheat and then go off on the spouse for doing what they can to catch them. People can catch diseases and die from their spouses having affairs; if you suspect something -- you almost need to protect yourself. I mean there are psycho people who are just very jealous type people who could bother anyone and then there are people that are married to people like you that are cheating... and, no, even if your wife got spy wear, she didn't make it happen. You did, you and your soul mate who was chatting with a married man... she sounds like a classy lady; hopefully you hide how you met from your friends.. nobody like a homewrecker.

    You and your soul mate do sound perfect for each other though. You haven't even checked her profile to see if she was listed as married... What? Seriously, why would you even think about that unless you were doubting her? It wouldn't even occur to me to check my husband's status ..if he didn't list it, I would just think he forgot it, or didn't mention it for some other reason... that's trust... thinking about it, ro the point of saying "I dind't even check it" sounds like you're worrying about it. Serioulsy, it wouldn't even occur to me --why are you even thinking about it?

    But honey, let me tell you something, no married woman I know is using only her Maiden name. Many use both last names -- so that people can find them under either; and you can easily set it up that way. Of course using her maiden name makes it easier for her old BOYfriends to find her and totally suggests to others that she is not married. I have old friends, and guess what, they know I am married and have a different last name. Just odd... well, maybe not really all that odd considering the history.

    I think deep down you're fooling yourself... like I first said, a relationship that was formed on mistrust and lies, is kind of not the beautiful relationship that you may generally expect to have with your soul mate. It's kind of tainted, no? Of course that pinky swear you did, I'm sure means a lot, probably as much as your last marriage vows.

  • pjb999
    13 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Nice. I guess you're not going to be convinced. I told her to use her maiden name. Wasn't her idea. Like I said I work with computers and suggested it to keep her/us insulated from identity theft etc. Everyone knows her from her maiden name anyway because we were overseas. The people that matter know she is married and she is open about that.

    My first marriage was over before it began. As you say doomed from the beginning. I knew I should have broken it off but, I'm ashamed to admit I was too much of a chicken and allowed myself to be swept up in it. I did try my best but eventually it wore me down. Perhaps it was destined to happen anyway, because we did have kids and I wouldn't change that.

    My ex was the one who said she didn't believe in love and romance (found that out later) and that we were just 'roommates' - I made it quite clear I didn't want to live like that. We really were just sharing a roof.

    My ex 'spying' on me - and she did in her own way - would not have saved my marriage, like I said it was pretty much over by mutual unspoken agreement, not that I acted on it. As for the financial side of it, it pretty much cost me everything to leave - I took on all the debts except the house, and then I still had to pay there, but I wanted the ex to have the house -in the end it would have been better to sell it but she's pretty materialistic and wanted to hang onto it. I ended up with nothing but some debts, she hung onto the house, just, met someone else who helped her out with it.

    So everyone went through a financially and emotionally trying time - which I was trying to avoid in the first place, it just goes to show you shouldn't put off unpleasant difficult things you know you need to do.

    I guess I'm not going to convince you. You probably think I'm a bad person. Coming from a highly abusive (on her part) relationship, I make no apologies. I regret people getting hurt, sure. I am sorry for the impact on the kids, but the impact on the kids hearing their mother abuse me was pretty tough too.

    I am a different and much better person. I learned from my mistakes and moved on. Things are different and both of us have placed a lot of trust in each other and taken some pretty big leaps of faith. I also think I know when I can trust someone, and I do.

    My whole point was, facebook et al is not for everyone. Let's just drop it, and agree to disagree.

  • daft_punk
    13 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Hey pjb...

    I found my soulmate online, as well. We also lived halfway around the world from each other. Took us a while to figure out what has happening. After a two-year long-distance relationship, we got married in Singapore. We lived there for two years before moving to the US. We now own a small home in New England.

    Carla...

    Trust is the name of the game in any online relationship. Otherwise you will be absolutely miserable wondering "what your partner is doing". The trust we shared allowed us to make it through months of physical seperation. Believe me...that was painful enough without the green-eyed monster tormenting us, as well.

    Trust like that keeps on going even when the distance is gone. That's why I've no problem with my wife's Facebooking. She chats with old schoolmates - some women, some men, some single. There's texting and phone calls, too. In fact, she's going to a school reunion next month. No other spouses will be going, so there's no need for me to go. Besides...I don't know anyone.

    This trust works both ways. When we lived in S'pore, my best friend was a single woman. My wife and she were best friends before we married, and continued the friendship afterward. We became friends later on. The three of us often went out together - movies, dinner, ect. She even wished me a happy birthday via text message. I didn't need to be reminded I was a year older, tho'!

    When my wife and I visited her last year, she let us stay in her guest bedroom. That saved us having to pay for a hotel. She had just gotten a "Dear Jane" letter from the jerk she was with, so she appreciated the company.

    The second night we were there, my wife went to bed early. The jet-lag had done her in. Yet our friend and I stayed up and talked. I just couldn't help myself...the discussion turned to...POLITICS.

    Yes...that was sarcasm...yet I won't apologise for it. I do apologise for hijacking this thread. However I just couldn't stand by while Carla painted all men with that broad brush of hers. She said..."Men are not women; they do think about having sex with their "friends" and will act upon it if/when given the right opportunity if they put themselves in the right situations."

    Well guess what?...that behaviour is not limited to men. Another of my wife's girlfriends is a homewrecker. She even lost a job because of relations with a married colleague. When we shook hands during our last visit, she paddled my palm. Apparently she was looking for some opportunities of her own. Too bad I wasn't interested.

    gifgurl...

    Your husband is lying to these women about your relationship to gain sympathy from them. Don't let him twist any blame to you. His actions have turned you into a spy. Shame on him.

    Good luck.

  • pjb999
    13 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Thanks, Daftpunk, for your comments. I agree, generalising is dangerous. Trust is paramount. Lose that, and things become self-fulfilling.

  • carla35
    13 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    So, we are dropping it, or we're not dropping it? Oh, wait, let me guess, I have to drop it, but not anyone else?

    daft,

    My point was that pjb met someone else on line while he was still married...(that is mistrust plain and simple, no?) If you didn't get or see that, you missed the whole point. I'm not saying you can't meet someone one line that is wonderful and your soul mate and that you can't trust on facebook. Of course you can. But Pjb was married when he met someone on line!!!!

    And, sorry for overgeneralizing, but as a whole I do think men think differently about their friends then women do. Of course a women can develop a crush on a male friend and have sexual feelings for them, but men 'generally' do think about almost all their attractive friends on a sexual level at one point, or another while most women really don't think about having sex with every cute guy they see. You don't have to agree with my generalization, but, don't be blind to it either.

    And, I didn't really get your sarcastic story.. or even what part of it was supposed to be sarcastic.. (Isn't sarcasm usually mean, and/or saying the opposite of what you think --not just throwing in the word "Politics" or making up a whole story -- I don't know) ...But if your wife really does have this friend, I would lay big money that you have thought of her sexually because that's just the nature of the beast ;-)

  • pjb999
    13 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Thanks Carla. I am sure none of us men knew what we thought until you happened along. Do not presume to speak for others, and don't judge others.

  • wildchild
    13 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    I'm surfing and came across this post. I am on Facebook. I have friends who are male, female, gay, bi, married and single. Their ages range from late 20s to I think around 76 or so. We banter we joke , we use innuendo. That's all it is. My grown kids on on Facebook and we're friends too.We write goofy stuff on each others walls now and then. DH has no interest in online communities.

    I'm 58 years young. Married to my first and only DH for over 35 years. I had male friends when I met him and I still have male friends today. I go on vacation alone sometimes. I have male friends I see just like I would a girlfriend. I have never strayed. Men and women can and do have platonic relationships.

    Affairs will always happen. They always have. Either a person is committed or they aren't. The net, keeping tabs etc. won't change that.

    Reminds me of teenagers with curfews. They can get knocked up just as easily after school as at midnight but parents choose the false security of thinking if they are in at night they're safe.

    I don't know the OP. However I do know there are 3 sides to every story....his,hers and the truth.

    If my DH started to question me on what I was doing I would become defensive too. Hugs,hearts and flowers etc on Facebook are not necessarily courting someone LOL. Without seeing the actual message we don't know what the context was. Recently I got an email from a male friend (not on Facebook) who said he thought I was "adorable". He was referring to something I'd said and the way I'd said it. Taken out of context by a jealous mate it could have been overblown into something it had not to do with.

  • jwieland_ameritech_net
    13 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    I have a similar problem as the op. My DH has I guess what you could call an ex thaat he is now talking to on Facebook. He has female friends and I am ok with that. My problem is the stuff that him and this ex say to each other. She had a list of firsts and he was the first thing she thought of when she woke up. He has also told her that if they were to make a movie of his life it would end with the hero not getting the girl. I'm a girl what the hell does that mean? I'm not a good enough girl or the wrong girl that he got stuck with? Maybe it means that I don't deserve a hero? He has started deleting their messages so that I can't read them. He says it's so I don't jump to the wrong conclusions. He didn't talk to her for a coupole days after our last huge fight about this and she asked if it was because she was coming on to strong? Here is the text...
    Don't be afraid of being on Facebook. I will not bother you if you are online. I have noticed that almost as soon as you are on, you are offline again fairly quickly, and I hope it's not because of me.
    HER:
    Maybe I was too forward. I didn't mean to be.
    HIM:
    Today at 2:24am
    Please woman... I was on and off to see if I got any email from you. I didnt so I logged. I didnt even think to check the chat thingy.
    HIM AGAIN:
    Today at 2:25am
    And also, how were you being forward? I still dont understand women after 40+ years...lol
    HER:
    Today at 9:16am
    Checking to see if I sent you an email? Honestly.....I think I sent the last one, and didn't hear anything from you, so I assumed that you didn't want to talk. Men. You guys are impossible. :-) You know, you can send me one too. Sometimes I log in to see if YOU sent ME an email. :-)

    The "being too forward thing"? It's like this....I contact you out of the blue after 12 years, and no doubt threw you a curveball (maybe not, idk).
    HER AGAIN:
    Today at 9:19am
    Oh, and BTW...check your chat once in a while. You never know who or what you'll find. :-)

    THey are both married. I thought we were happy. Now I don't know. Did you notice the times he sent her messages. It was the middle of the night. He stays up all night to talk to other women and there is nothing for me except yelling the next day if I ask anything or anger because he is overly tired. Can someone please tell me if I am being to sensitive here? The two of them never really dated but did mess around a bit from what he says other people we know say otherwise. Please help I'm at the end of my rope with this!

  • mara_2008
    13 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    To the OP:

    IMHO, this is your situation:

    Since your DH gets defensive about "flirting"...

    ...which is proven by his need to degrade you for not liking what he is doing...

    Since your DH is telling lies about your marriage (accusing you of not having sex with him; not doing things with him, etc, etc, etc)...

    Since your DH is trying to make you feel guilty because you realize he is being a cad...

    Since your DH is suggesting YOU are the one who needs to see a doc and get on meds...

    Since your DH is lying to you by saying his emotional entanglements are "helping" the Other Women's marriages/relationships...

    Since your DH has already made physical contact with [at least] one of his Facebook "friends"...

    You have a serious problem on your hands. I know fifteen years seems like a big investment (and it is), but are you willing to spend fifteen more years like this???

    I realize you haven't posted in a while. I do hope you are getting real help. Hope to hear an update. (((hugs)))

  • mara_2008
    13 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Jen, I'm curious -- how in the world does your DH stay up so late at night doing this and then work the next day, too???

    Those messages seem to be innocuous, but if I were in your shoes, I would be very concerned. Strong emotional connections are not to be lightly dismissed.

    The very fact that he is so addicted that he stays up all hours of the night doing that is a flaming red flag IMO. To me, the bottom line is that he is expending emotional energy on OW rather than on you.

    If I were you, I would definitely stay on top of this. And if your DH is even the least bit defensive about it, that is a HUGE red flag too. HTH

  • gailisme
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Oh wow....I feel exactly like you do. I know that awful feeling. My husband is in a band...groupie like girls are always around. I too have snooped around & I'm not proud of it but I so know that uncertain feeling. I see the sexy girls profile pics that are asking to be his friend on FB and it makes me crazy! I don't know what to do about it. I just keep watching but in a way it does keep me on my toes. I am more aware of my weight and appearance. I want to feel as good about myself as I can. Nothing worse than feeling fat & ugly when some sexy thing flirts with him when were out. I really feel for you. I don't have advice...I can only relate coz I'm sort of in the same boat.

  • tracystoke
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    oh my.I dont know if anybody else has seen their old posts and thought omg, did i say that.well I have definatly changed my oppinion about facebook.I hate it,its one of the worst things invented,i always thought it was a time waster,but when your single,it felt like a great help.But I admit NOW when im happily involved with someone i dont feel the need for that crap.I will never join facebook again and if my partner does I would be watching like a hawk,i think its a terrible social network that needs banning,

  • peytonroad
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Did not read all the posts but I would also post on every one of his "flirty" posts on facebook. EVERY ONE, eventually he will get the point or his female friends will find him weird one or the other!

  • overlyloyal
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Sounds like I'm engaged to your husband. :( My fella is texting too though, and learned real fast to delete his history, messages, etc. I don't want it. He promises over and over that he's loyal but maybe we have different definitions of loyal.

  • overlyloyal
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    I did find this article interesting, especially the last paragraph.. 'But if you want to figure out where drawing the line should come in, then imagine that your girlfriend is doing what you're doing and if you still think it's harmless, then more power to you.'

  • david.w.rahfeldt
    10 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    I know this one seems simple, but actually it is way less simple that it sounds, and we are again missing key data to know what is really happening.

    WHY are we missing data for a good analysis and decision tree?

    AH ... that indeed is EXACTLY the problem.

    Meaning while most of the analyses here above make some good and valid points (most not all) we seem to be dancing around things avoiding "root cause analysis".

    Men usually function on a "logical analysis trigger" when something they percieve as fundamental to their needs or a committment in a relationship has been broached or failed.

    Now these "reasons" often make very little sense to women, for you see, there really ARE significant differences between both the male brain, hormonal systems,and social entrainments.

    Example: 22 years ago my wife told me she never again wanted to hear about quantum cosmology and multi-dimensional space time or the bedtime stories I was telling the kids about cosmological physics and mathematics.

    In doing so she closed the door to that part of my life we might have shared and to this day, I take my conversations with the kids elsewhere, to discussions on drives to school or while we are doing something out of the house, when we are discussing such things, and she knows none of my friends I discuss advanced physics with, nor do i meet with them at our home.

    One statement and she closed off about 50 percent of my time and life interests from being part of our shared life or marriage.

    Now setting aside whether it was rational or not for her to do this or me to react this way ... my point is that this is as TYPICAL for a man ... normal ... as it is for a man to try to SOLVE problems presented to them by a spouse ... it is in our fundamental nature.

    Even if a woman just wants someone to listen to her vent emotionally for a minute, if the venting is presented in the form of "a problem to be solved" the guy will feel COMPELLED to attack the problem and ignore the emotional issues his spouse has with it. It is what we do, hunt, kill, analyse, solve problems ... millions of years of evolution there ... so you can either figure out how to trigger teh right triggers in your guy or ... well ... the negative or anomolous and hard to understand outcomes.

    Men often react in this way.

    They take statements not at vague statements of momentary feeling but as "permmanet policy statments" and close down areas of communication, dependencies, sharing, etc. in those areas that you thought were fine ... because of a momentary comment or atttiude adopted that you probably thought was trivial and dont even recall as significant.

    I have seen women who in a moment of irritation would say something like "I am tired of my breasts being groped and nipples pinched - it makes me feel like a sex doll instead of loved" and the guy thinks .. ok we rule out breasts categorically from out sexuality ...

    A year later she she thinking ... our sex life used to be good and he loved my breasts and now he hates to even touch them ... and he has lost interest in sex to a great degree , what should i do ... am i going to lose him? "

    Not realizing that she set up the paradigm that sent the event sequence of less acceptance, less sense of belonging, less sense of comfort, less sense of entitelment, less sense of closeness, and eventually less sex ... in motion ...

    As men we are totally childish emotionally even when we have Ph.D.s or MD's or other advanced educational achievements ...

    Get used to the idea that we are SIMPLE beings emotionally ... and complex beings intelelctually ...

    So while facebook is tempting and getting diffuse gratification that one is desirable and "wantable" or "loveable" is an easy time trap and emotional trap to fall into ...

    Behind it there is a root cause somewhere that made it so attractive, eh?

    Now is the difficult part ... once a guy as a "policy gate" in place based on something that happened between you (might be trivial or forgotten in you view or mindset) ... he is NOT going to bring it up or disuss it.

    Think of it from his perspective ... it is like some part of you developed moray eel teeth and he got bit and no way is he interested in shoving his hand back in the hole to see if he is going to get bit again ... he will take the CIA method - deny deny deny deny ... what hole ? what eel? I dont recollect anything ... (CIA method)

    Now the hard part about this is that one a "logical policy gate" is up ... it is not coming down easily if ever. He felt he is not getting something he needs in the relatiosnhnip, it has been categorically ruled out as realistic, and so is elsewhere seeking that need gratification.

    Just about that simple.

    Remember, us guys, no matter how poorly or highly educated, no matter how brilliant or dumb we are ... are "emotionally simple, - intellectually complicated"

    and fragile ...

    Even when we run multi-billion dollar enterprises or efforts or have social or economic power, or not - dont ever mistake lack of economic or personal achievements as meaning a guy functions different, or mistake his massive economic or professional or academic or business achievements as meaning the he functions differently. We dont ... we may get more self discipline and more elegant eloctuation skills with education but we do not get more sophisticated emotionally or less literal intellectually.

    Even with great social sophistication ...

    So to pursure root cause analysis you need to divine out what benefits he is getting from his activities that you are NOT providing ...

    Yes bringing him into counseling when he is already in "CIA MODE" is a waste of time ... does not workfor the US Senate, will not work for your marriage.

    Go to counseling yourself, nto with an eye to finding out wha tyou did wrong or what is wrong with him ... but with an eye to learning more sophisticated analysis and communication and theraputic skills you can apply to view him and your behavior and atttiudes thru.

    To know or understand is NOT necessarily to heal or forgive, but it at least does put it in perspetive and give you a realistic view of whether a breach in functionality can be healed or not.

    Knowledge is power ... but even knowledge of why the moon orbits the earth does not enable you to change the orbit.

    But it at least dispels the fear of it falling ... on you.

    Sounds like this case has gone along pretty far down the tube without effective intervention and that he is probably addicted at this point to the additional emotonal strokes and fantasies this process provides for him and that it is probably nto going to be easy, if possible at all, to re-engage with him again ...

    Remember we are simple beings us men, once we have it in our heads ... whatever "it" is ... it is not easy to displace ...

    Oh ... and a simple litmus for ALL women to reflect on ... as simple being we need simple reassurances ... drop below those needed threasholds of reassurances for long, and your chap simply feels "abandoned in place" like unused or unneeded miltiary hardware after a battle ...

    That threashold?

    Figure a good conversation 2-3 times a day (1/2 hour or more)

    Figure good sex 2-3 times a day (1/2 hour or more)

    Figure shared intrests, activities or co-work of some kind at least once a day (you hold the door while he puts in the screws - or he chops the carrots while you feed him chocolate encouragement bits)

    Remember if he feels "abandoned in place" he will do the same to you and "abandon in place" in response ...

    Now it is possible the guy is just a jerk? yah ok sure, he might have huge character flaws ...

    But since men seem to turn into the same kind of jerks in the same ways, for the same causes, at the same ages or durations into relationships, one might reasonably ask if perhaps instead of fixing blame, fixing the operational paradigm that leads to these problematic scenarios might be a better modality.

    Yes i am married to the same gal now for 24 plus years ...

    Yes I have a sense of humor about the differences ... better get one of those too ... if you hope to survive without anger or bitterness ...

    Be well and do good unto all

  • whatodoabout
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Wondering how this all worked out, did your husband stop or still doing the same ? I have a commonlaw husband that is always flirting and emotionally cheating on me online and I catch him all the time and all he has to say about it is, "IM NOT DOING ANYTHING WRONG" until I catch him and then says he doesnt know why he does this, he has a problem.Is so annoying how gullible many of women out there are in believing all the bogus BS some guys tell them, and yes especially when they see they are in a relationship. All I can say is come on you nieve women, get a life with a real honest man not a game player online that is only looking for an ego boost.
    To the poster above... HUH? alot of fancy wording for a simple post posted by the OP.

  • wintergaarden
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    i'm sorry this has happened to you. I was unable to read your whole post due to time, but know this:

    they are NOT just friends
    THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS MARRIED MEN AND WOMEN AS FRIENDS. PERIOD.
    this is internet infidelity. he is spending precious emotional time with other women when he should be with you. there is absolutely no excuse for this behavior. DO NOT PUT UP WITH IT FOR A SINGLE MINUTE.

    WHAT YOU SHOULD DO IMEDIATELY:
    IMMEDIATELY STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT IT.
    start going to counseling and working on yourself getting yourself secure, vibrant and happy WITHOUT HIS HELP, don't complain to your girlfriends or family members (they will turn on him and then when u win him back, they will turn on you), just go to counseling.

    start working out and getting yourself HOT. do this with a smile on your face and absolutely no whining or complaining, do NOT tell him WHAT you are doing or WHY.

    buy yourself hot lingerie and sexy clothing. start "making friends" with hot guys on facebook. do this WITHOUT COMPLAINING OR WHINING TO HIM ANOTHER SECOND, JUST DO IT! IF HE SAYS SOMETHING OR COMPLAINS, DO EXACTLY LIKE HIM, SMILE, TELL HIM THEY'RE "JUST FRIENDS" only stop when he stops.

    spend time DOING YOUR OWN THING MAKING YOURSELF HAPPY. Do this with a smile on your face WITHOUT COMPLAINING OR WHINING ONE SECOND. I know this is painful and extremely hurtful but you have to BUCK UP, wipe yourself off and get yourself together.

    this will: IMMEDIATELY WHIP HIM INTO SHAPE ***OR***

    prepare you for anything that happens to you - say he tries to leave you with one of these wh*res. MAKE NO MISTAKE HE IS ATTEMPTING TO REPLACE YOU WHILE HE'S IN A RELATIONSHIP WITH YOU HE IS DOING IT THIS WAY TO SOFTEN HIS OWN BLOW, BELIEVE ME, I SPENT TWO YEARS OF MY LIFE THINKING THIS WASN'T HAPPENING AND PULLING THE WOOL OVER MY EYES. I did EVERYTHING I listed above (started working out 2 hours a day 3 times a week got my mind STRONG) everything else and my husband whipped back into shape so fast it would make your head spin. Unfortunately the internet is full of wh*res and they are ready in a second to steal your man out from under you. the answer is to work ON YOURSELF VERY VERY VERY FAST DON'T WAIT ANOTHER MINUTE. this working on yourself is NOT for him, it's for Y.O.U.!!!! So you can feel your vibrant lovely self again totally secure without a man. this will whip any man into shape. start wearing bright nice flirty clothes, makeup and work out like crazy. make lots of "male friends" on facebook yourself. be happy and fun about the whole thing, never again say another PEEP about what he's doing, just do the same but better. trust me this works. as I stated above I'm truly sorry to the bottom of my heart that this is happening to you, I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy believe me. the pain is excruciating - that's why you need counseling to handle it. go on youtube and watch videos of men telling you the truth about how to tell if your man is cheating or about to cheat. good luck to you and god bless you and i'm truly truly sorry.

  • wintergaarden
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    p.s. someone I know ended having this happen for 2 years and at the end of those 2 years, this man BROUGHT A WOMAN HOME FROM A BAR TO SLEEP WITH!!! (which didn't happen because she's psychic and was pulled home to catch him at the door with her) this person did all of the above and left him for 3 months and did the "no contact" method the boys told her about on youtube. he became ABSOLUTELY MISERABLE figuring out he loved her more than anyone on the planet. he returned, got rid of all the extraneous internet sl*ts and is a devoted dedicated husband. this all happened after 10 years of marriage and near his 40th birthday. it's called a midlife crisis and it will come on like gangbusters and knock you on your butt if you don't buck up and get yourself together. believe u me. good luck

  • colleenoz
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Did you happen to notice the original post was four years ago?

  • mkroopy
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    true it's 4 yr old post...but I gotta say this...wintergaarden you are an a$$.

    Great advice...confront a bad situation not by being honest and communicating, but by playing games. Real mature, I think you need to keep your past issues out of any advice you give. And not only playing games with the husband to "turn the tables" or "whip him into shape", but also involving other people ("start making male friends to flirt with on facebook"). Real mature advice.

    You know, I was cheated on too...my ex wife was a piece of work, let me tell you...incapable of telling the truth, I found out after 10 yrs of marriage and two kids. Did I handle it like an immature teenager, like you suggested? No. I tried to communicate, I tried to work on the marriage...and after several years, when she did it again, I said "we're done". Little drama, little acting out, no hurting or involving other people in any way. I HANDLED IT LIKE A F*CKING ADULT.

    Oh, and you'r statement:

    "THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS MARRIED MEN AND WOMEN AS FRIENDS. PERIOD. "

    ...pretty much shows me how scorned and jilted you must be. I have many women friends that are married (I'm in a 5 yr committed relationship...almost the same thing), that I consider true friends. Some are mothers of my kids friends, some are social friends, some are people with a shared interest (tennis, etc). There is no flirting, no sexual tension, no ulterior motives in my relationships with these women...they are actually my friends.

    Get some counseling man, you have issues....

  • LuAnn_in_PA
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    "THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS MARRIED MEN AND WOMEN AS FRIENDS. PERIOD. "

    One of the most ridiculous comments ever written here.....

  • needsanotherchance
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    OK ladies...I need some help here.

    I am not married, but have been in a relationship for 14 months and we live together. I have had a problem in the past of sending suggestive messages to women online. Recently I sent a message to a girl I knew from a bar that I used to go to alot. Haven't seen this girl in probably 2 years or more maybe and were just friends and not very good friends at that.

    One day while she was away with her daughter at a gymnastics meet, I sent a suggestive message...which was never answered...My GF has looked through my phone on several occasions looking at who I talk to (when we first started seeing each other I was chatting with an old friend I hadnt seen for 20 years...I was very wrong in what I did there and it stopped well before she ever found it on my phone)

    I have messaged friends and said things that she thought suggestive and I should have worded my responses better. for instance, a friend was at a bar drinking and instead of saying as she says, I am with mhy GF I can't, I said wish I cold join you, but maybe another time. I honestly didnt mean anything by that as we had only been friends and that was it. another instance was I am in fantasy football and one of my leagues there is a girl, a friend for over 2 years and she has been seeing a friend of mine. she was new to the sport last few years and often texted me for advice. Once week while I was going to play versus her team, I reponded 'I'm gonna eat you up" - I am a former semi pro footbal player and that's just how trash talk goes...meant nothing suggestive at all...in hindsight, I now see that maybe my responses could have been much different.

    the message the day of the gymnastics meet was back in October...I haven't done anything since then but she still constantly monitors my facebook messaging. I honestly have not been chatting with anyone at all. I rarely even get on there at all. she see my messnger getting logged into and will send me messages to see if I will respond. sometimes I never get them because I am not even on there, or I will get them much later and respond to her. I just thought that my chat being logged in on FB was the reason. come to find out it is the Messenger App that has always been logged into on my conmputer and on my phone....I NEVER use it..but because of the thing last Oct...she doesnt believe anything I say and is even questioning a long lunch I had with my boss where we we drinking...which is what I told her I was doing.

    Please, please what can I do...she is going to leave me and she is newly pregnant with my child and I love her so much..I need help to try and get her to let me back in and re-gain her trust..

    I am just lost and so sorry for all I have done wrong to her. but I really do love her and want to Marry her. I have been true to her 100% except the messages I spoke of and maybe a few others that I unintentionally said the wrong thing....

    HELP!!!

  • colleenoz
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    >>Recently I sent a message to a girl I knew from a bar that I used to go to alot. Haven't seen this girl in probably 2 years or more maybe and were just friends and not very good friends at that. So why the hell bother to send her ANY message at all?
    While I think your GF is somewhat obsessive in monitoring all your communications and questioning you, by your own admission you have given her good reason to distrust you. A pity you didn't get this issue sorted BEFORE you got pregnant together.
    I'd suggest couples counselling combined with you staying off FaceBook, fantasy footbal and thinking carefully before you message friends. The example you gave was also hurtful because it implied you would rather be with this "friend" than your GF but couldn't work out how to do it without making your GF mad- and also implying that you would meet this "friend" when GF wasn't around. Why wasn't your first thought- "I'm with GF, we could all get together"?

  • Vrs1
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    There is no difficulty in seeing right or wrong here. He's wrong, and he's abusing the marriage.

    Night after night he's committing emotional adultery if nothing else. My wife and I understand a marriage is a bond between a man and a woman where each pledges to be faithful to the other. What kind of man would justify time with other women every night? One who didn't respect neither his marriage vows or his wife.

    Out of respect for my wife I'd never flirt and play around with other women the way he's doing. He's getting a thrill and trust me - he knows he's hurting you at the same time. The man doesn't care. You can BET he'd understand exactly what the problem is if the shoe was on the other foot. (But don't you do it. Don't stoop to that level) If it were my wife doing that to me I'd let her know - it's facebook or me. Period.

  • worriedone
    9 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    "The man doesn't care..."

    I have to agree. I have a couple of friends who caught their husbands - it began as "harmless" flirting and turned into some big nasties quick. One guy even MET up with the woman and turned out she was NOT who she claimed to be.

    Any time attention wanes - to me, it is a signal. For me, my husband's lover was his work. Never saw him. Thought it was another woman, but no. All work work work.

    Even this can end a marriage. I am just not important to him. His attentions and needs are met elsewhere. I gave it a shot, tho. To no avail. Ok.

    Divorce should be final in March after 27 years. It happens. We tried counseling. He had to be at work so it was moot ;).

    I even gave excuses for him. Accepted the behavior and treatment for many years. Then it turned uglier. We stopped talking all together.

    **Just my two cents! (Another woman would have hurt me to the core. For I would have felt that I somehow wasn't enough).

    Good luck to all those finding their relationships are being tested. And my hope is that Happiness and Equality rules. I was beating a dead horse. I was in denial.

  • sylviatexas1
    7 years ago

    spam


  • sushipup1
    7 years ago

    Looks like spam was removed from this thread.

  • Virginia Lawrence
    6 years ago

    Everything is ok with you! Who is wrong in this situation that`s your husband! IT`s obvious that is cheating on you!

    Disloyalty though the social networks currently has become a wide spread phenomenon .

    Dozens of apps like mSpy, FlexiSPY and etc. help to reveal the truth through the commercial spying. It can be illegal in some states and people may feel bad by using them. For me it`s better to know the truth rather then being with the person who betrays you and feels ok about it.

  • Suzieque
    6 years ago

    Virginia, I'm not sure if your post is spam or not. But in any event, I realize that this is your first ever post on these forums. You may notice that the most recent valid update on this thread was nearly 3 years ago.

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