Drjoann, from reading your OP and from seeing what you've been writing in other threads, here are my ideas for you. "Is a cutlery tray a big deal? " Top rack, for cutlery: a great thing. Now that the patent has expired, any DW manufacturer can put it in their models. Suddenly now, they no longer "dis" it. People who have it say it is good. Before you run your next DW wash cycle, you can actually leave the cutlery in the rack for a long time and not worry about emptying it like a basket requires. Two years ago when I studied this topic, I found the 18" Miele could come with two of these racks so one can just slide the full clean rack into a shallow drawer and not even have to unload it. No other DW had this at that time. I got a cheaper DW in the end but I'm still envious. "What are we missing if we get a modern, quiet DW, but don't go for the TOL ..." Hmmm, hard to be objective about this. If you are willing to be a proud driver of a VW (like, say, a Rabbit) instead of feeling you need or deserve any other more expensive Deutsches Auto, you have already answered this question. Wherever you are, there is bound to be one store or small chain that gives great deals to people who call, email, or show up and say they are dealhunters in every way. I found a great deal this way. I said "any DW, reasonably modern and quiet" . I was also buying other appliances. When I returned 9 months later I got a deal on another purchase. It all worked well, and my DW criteria might have been just the right starting point. The cost accountant in each company has to allocate costs based on a number of factors that have no correlation to the user experience in terms of dB(A) or drying or cleaning. A model that has not been re-worked will not have associated R&D costs to recuperate, so its distributor cost will be low. How will you know? Never can. Just declare yourself as the low-cost buyer you will be. Any DW, that is mid-range and quiet. If you want heated drying, it will have a steam vent in front. If you want condensating drying, it will not vent steam in front, it will be "greener" and take more time to finish a wash. I think DW technology is mature now so there is no compelling reason to spring for the highest price DW's. hth

sb-laund, I agree with you 100% that the user's manual should start the temperature of each cycle and also give a rough estimate of the cycle time. It seems that the manufacturers either put out the one OR the other. The Bosch manuals do state all the temperatures while the Whirlpool manuals state the cycle times. It sucks that the manufacturers tink the consumers are not smart enough to process a few more details. I think the temperatures are more relevant than the cycle time, but some people buy a FL and get really upset about how long a heavy duty or sanitary cycle takes. I grew up in Germany and I didn't experience to much handwashing at all. Maybe some very expensive items like cashmere or angora sweaters get washed by hand, but I have never owned too many of those. Fancy things like some dresses and suits normally get dry cleaned and everything else goes into the FL. Fading should not be an issue at temperatures of 100°F or so. The whitest whites and sanitary are surely not meant to be used on delicate or very colorful items. I think some manuals are misleading in saying that most everything can be washed on those cycles. The dryer poses a much higher risk to the longevity of clothes. Dryers were not too common in Germany 20 years ago. A lot of clothes are still not meant to go into a dryer at normal heat settings...and the cold ones take forever.

"When you think about it 40 gallons isn't a lot of water." I disagree. That is a lot of HOT water at 140°. If you were to draw it all down at 2.5 GPM, it would take 8 minutes. ThatÂs theoretical, because the way you draw it is to push it with COLD water. But thatÂs OK, because you arenÂt going to take too many showers at 140°  one, maybe. So to make it comfortable, you mix in 40 gallons of water at say, room temperature, and now you have 16 minutes at 102°. All the time, the fire is burning in the heater. If you have not been drawing a quart of water from the bottom of your heater once a month (And I know you havenÂt.) then you may have a scale at the bottom. This fools the thermostat into thinking you have many gallons of hot water, when all you have is a thin scale of hot deposits. Pinoke

Bloomz...your BRILLIANT...right after he walks in the door I'm going to accidently spill something on him..than I'm going to insist he change into...clothes that my son had in a bag to donate to the Thrift store..this just might work, once lol.. Actually this boy knows how much I love laundry, I could probably even tell him, without mentioning the stink, that I've noticed the stains on his clothes, and your poor mother works so hard trying to keep up with a busy life, why don't you bring your clothes over and I will teach you all about stain removal, and how to properly do laundry so you can surprise your mother by doing the laundry and lighten her load. This might work..and it won't seem too odd since he's heard me plenty of times offer to do peoples laundry. .and he likes making his mother happy, i will think on this and word it just the right way..but I think it will work..and when I talk to his mom I can tell her I'm cleaning my detergent closet out and would she please take a box of detergent off my hands. Than once Kodys at home doing laundry he won't need to use Purex the watered down water lol. Thank you all..I'll give this a try lol.