Thanks everyone! Gates1--what is a kill-a-meter? I will be very interested to find out how hot yours is getting. badgergrrl--Does the booster just affect water to the washing machine or to the whole house? I am worried my 3 year old will scald himself if it is too hot everywhere. cyberspacer--you *can* do it, because I went ahead and did it and it works in that it does keep the cold water from entering, but I am just wondering if it is safe to do or if it could ruin the machine? As a side note...I have had this thing for less than 48 hours and there is condensation under the LED on/off button and the rest of the display. Any experience with this? Maybe I just have a lemon...? Thanks everyone!

If electronic sensors belong anywhere, it is in the rinse water. The military has refined sensors for taste and smell but a simple optical sensor in the final rinse would function as an excellent babysitter..this way no matter what size load or level of dirt you have the results are consistant. It's all rinsewater now days. Good question. I wash cold exclusively, have'nt gotten around to refining my wash method, why bother since I still have 2.5 gallons of cheap powder left. 2 words - Tide cold powder. The staber is rated at 18 pounds, I got it because it is a full size machine and I can wash enormous loads to be effecient since washing 8 versus 16 pounds DOUBLES every (every) expense associated with you washer. Therefore and due to the smallish staber tub, and because I wash cold exclusively, I have to run the tightest ship possible to still get results. Here is how to do it with any machine... Sure this machine takes 18 pounds in a pinch and is pretty effective due to the diamond tub shape, but with those loads one must use a prewash, which in the stabver functions as an extra rinse, but even here over time clothes will/might get dingy. (keep in mind i'm a bit of a complete slob, my laundry is absolutely filthy compared to average, just fine dust/dirt mostly and sand/oils)I do'nt really seperate whites entirely from greys also etc. Therefore, the clothes were getting dingy overtime. Because lack of hots means I do not set stains, if the clothes become dingy, I still have the option to erase the dingeness in the future. (I also air dry exclusively since incidently drier heat sets stains) over *time* oils - stains inevetably come out: I prefer this option..and by using multirinses I *now* have cured the dingy problem, and clothes last longer. I also use sunlight as an extended disinffectant I now sun dry everything. So to answer the cold question is simple and it involves 2 things being using the best *powder* and 2 watch your rinse water. Washing without seeing your rinse water is a shot in the dark I could not see doing it in any other way, so early on I modified the Staber so now I can check rinse on the fly. (a simple expansion chamber in the out line will work) When/if you elect to do it that way you can just dump the rinse water into a jar, in the beginning I would use up to seven rinses/jars, and these I photographed for refereance. It gets to a point where all your left with is dyes, so the water will have be a blue grey cast (do'nt go overboad on rinsewater!) This I proved by capping the jars tightly and letting them sit for a week then smelling them. I found a prewash with 1-2 extra rinses is about right. (remember I am using 16 pound fiiilthy loads) For comparison, the Staber does a prewash with 1-2 ounce soap, drains, wash with 1-2 ounce more soap, drains, rinse one, drains and rinse 2, drains. So I count that as 4 rinses. On top of this, I just add rinses till I'm satisfied, and this means on wash day I hang out doing work in the garage where the machine is so I can babysit when it starts rinsing. this way my wash is always on target. Before this, the staber at one point in the height of my filth which for me is always midsummer developed a bad smell. I did not attribute this to mold or build up Since the outer tub is still shiny, but to rinse water which sits at the bottom of the machine 1-2 inches deep. (this I *like* to prevent hard water deposits and salt concentration, and dried muck build up and oxygen resulting in rust and the inevitable outer tub leak) After one small wash the smell vanished. It's all rinse water now days. The staber incidently has a timer dial which allows me to program any one of a gillion different wash combinations, and It does'nt need a mondo hairy and vulnerable elecronics board.. some timer dials by the way only turn clockwise, this one goes either way which is ideal. I can do limitless rinses, in summer I use all the rinse on plants anyway. For a given amount of time, the staber also has the most agressive wash/rinse for a given tub design, which is the true measure of a good washer, Consumer Reports for instance does not take tub design into account, they just check results for a given electric program, which does'nt tell you which machine is able to pull the most efficiently for a given time when programmed optimally, which translates to great variance in expense and wear; commonly refered to as a lack of simple common sense on the part of CR. Washing always involves balance, programing from the start is barking up a comprimised tree since the animal is usually moving. You end up with either too much or not enough, usually to much.. the manual timer dial and the ability to open the machine any time is the only way I would ever wash. Many machines offer any number of extra rinses, the staber dial however allows me to adjust on the fly which is the best way, this way the inefficient redcoats are never coming.. want a worldclass machine program it to adjust rinse water based on an electrical sensor, but it still wo'nt beat user interface. This machine is also everest of gentle whith the most delicate item being pillows comforters. While the staber has a very good inner tub approach, on the other hand a 4800 with 4 cubic feet will I think match or exceed on average the staber 2 cubic feet approach, definately when using comforters, when washing 16 pounds I'm not so sure, also because the staber tub has the advantage of generating air/suds with it's splash, which has been found also by the japanese to be a big advantage in their Panasonic washers together with thier foam generators. The Staber for instance has a week spot in the center of say a big flannel sleeping bag, so as in any front loader one should load such an item so the part you lay on faces the outermost tub peripheral. (I tested this phenomena using ketchup) The 4800 will wash a big comforter much better than the Staber I would think. This is the main reason the 4.2 cubic foot LG is on top at CR, it solves the staber ketchup problem, but the trade off is weight/mass. I've washed my sleeping bags some 70 times, they are lasting veeery longtime and the wash is definately sufficient versus the laundry mat. I even keep the wash/spin on normal high speed. (do not wash a comforter on delicates in a staber! is my opinion) Bottomline the staber offers a hidden cost saving/operational advantages that I prefer by a wide margin due to the tub design, even if wash results (at 16 pounds) are not as good as a 4 cube foot machine. ..on detergent it's easy, go with Tide coldwater powder, it won a shootout out of around 30 detergents at CR. Cr found powders to be superior, tide cold liquid was way down on the ratings. Also since I wash cold, and with powder, I learned early on to dissolve the powder first. Critical. I place the powder in a glass jar with a half cup water and microwave and shake it, add more water, shake again. If I do not do this, the aggresive wash of the staber tub forces the powders into the clothes before it ever dissolves and it gets trapped in there when using full loads that ca'nt breathe as ideally. In the miel machine,I imagine using *my* powder would cause some of the powder to sit at the bottom of the *outer* tub undissolved, (, being sams club detergent) and you would run out and by some liquid persil to get clean clothes. This is because circular inner tubs as they spin cause centrifical force to hold water to the outer tub - (tiny tub holes can aggravate this) The Staber has big pencil sized holes, and because it doesn't use a space eating window, gets by with only 2 cubic feet of tub space. This is one reason many ahorizaxis machine manuals do'nt recommend powder, only HE. The tide cold water I suspect will not need to be dissolved before hand in any machine. It's good stuff. Lastly, on the staber anyway, I can use much more powder than the manual states and still have the machine spin out full speed and not suds lock since the machine breathes while shut and running, ulike machines with a sealed glass windows, and the inadvertant sensors needed to keep an eye on suds/spin speeds. I take full advantage of this by loading up to 5 ounces of powder into the prewash versus 2 ounces in the pre and 2 ounces in the wash which is how the staber is originally set up. Not sure if this is better but that's what I do. This also allows me to forfeit the stupid automatic detergent loader. With the Staber I can open it up and fiddle around at any given time - even on locked door by pulling out the timer and waiting 2 minutes. Some of us have hard water and it varies day to day, my water needs more detergent do to the hardness so the staber I think is a real advantage here. One last note, my pillows and comforters I wash every to weeks at most, and sometimes the wash water is brown, but I never need prewash or extra rinse with these ultra light items. (or it could be the fabric is producing less dye) I decided early on cold wash is the way to go, yes I know all about effects of cold and hot an certain varied protien or not and or saturated temperature activated oils stains etc., but I think in the real world it's not so cutdry, everything gets jumbled in the wash and if clothes become dingy it is a smorgashbord ding that can become set plus hot water has an effect on wear and expense. Not using drier is just another part of enhancing my cold wash performance, alittle detail here alittle detail their. The drier heat can set stains. I do have lint remaining on some fabrics, some fabrics are notorious for holding lint, but most of it pills into clumps that can be removed by hand especially with longer tumbling. As for wrinkles I simply fold the clothes when it is hot from the sun, after that body heat and movement does the rest. ..but yes omitting the drier is just another part of washing cold. Getting the details right can produce results when cold washing.. (to save timemoney ofcourse) It takes just as much effort to do it accurately as not and in this case much less when all is said and done. I recently set a world record 57.96 mpg in a stock Honda Civic non hybrid EX, and everyone thinks I did it with a tail wind on a test course at an average speed of 26, no, you do'nt have to suffer to get results. To rattle your brains I did it at an average freeway speed of around 70 mph. I realize this took alot of typing but once you get it down coldwater washing works. When I set the record it was on freeways and 30 percent city in cool (hot air is more efficient) still air, among other things, I would accelerate to 80 or so on down hills and flick it into neutral; after first ofcourse making sure the wheels/bearing/brakes were frictionless, so I no did'nt get there late afterall. I used speed memory basically - commonly known as energy retention in aeronautics, as in airplanes also in cars, weight (ballast) suddenly becomes an advantage. completley backwards to conventionally thoughtout physics, which says lightweight and lower averagspeed for efficientcy. it is the same with coldwater washing. The other tip that I havent tried yet for cold washing are the oxy bleaches which is how many hospitals are doing it. It is not always what you think will work but what actually does - hot might still get you cleanest I agree (currently) but itllcostya-

sb-laund, I agree with you 100% that the user's manual should start the temperature of each cycle and also give a rough estimate of the cycle time. It seems that the manufacturers either put out the one OR the other. The Bosch manuals do state all the temperatures while the Whirlpool manuals state the cycle times. It sucks that the manufacturers tink the consumers are not smart enough to process a few more details. I think the temperatures are more relevant than the cycle time, but some people buy a FL and get really upset about how long a heavy duty or sanitary cycle takes. I grew up in Germany and I didn't experience to much handwashing at all. Maybe some very expensive items like cashmere or angora sweaters get washed by hand, but I have never owned too many of those. Fancy things like some dresses and suits normally get dry cleaned and everything else goes into the FL. Fading should not be an issue at temperatures of 100°F or so. The whitest whites and sanitary are surely not meant to be used on delicate or very colorful items. I think some manuals are misleading in saying that most everything can be washed on those cycles. The dryer poses a much higher risk to the longevity of clothes. Dryers were not too common in Germany 20 years ago. A lot of clothes are still not meant to go into a dryer at normal heat settings...and the cold ones take forever.

Found that Cold Power was made by Colgate-Palmolive (not that it matters; it's not on the market anymore). Also found this blurb: "Ian Hardin, a professor of textile sciences at the University of Georgia, also worries about cold-water washing, remarking that 60 °F is a "really low" temperature. "If you want better cleaning, higher temperature is always better," he says, because the temperature of the water itself puts energy into the system and that energy is part of the solvation process that lifts the soil particles from the surface of the fibers. For example, he recommends hot-water washing and thorough drying if transferring bacterial or a viral illness through a household is a concern. "In creating a product like this, [detergent makers] are responding to the fact that they know there are a lot of people out there who want to do [a] cold-water wash." In certain cases, it might work. "Compared to a generation ago or maybe two generations ago, most of us donÂt get clothes nearly as dirty as we used to," he says, so "if someone wants to cold-water wash [lightly soiled clothes], IÂm sure these products will be just fine." Here is a link that might be useful: More here