Asolo - they haven't changed for the worst. There are also happy owners of these new Miele washers as with everything. The Miele's didn't suit crooks101 and thus she made a fuss - like with most negative posts on this site there's a thousand happy owners to one unhappy owner.

Miele are still the best when it comes to domestic laundry equipment IMO.

Jon

On reading the last post, I could be mistaken for sounding harsh towards crooks101... apologies as I didn't mean to be and apologies for trying to string a post together when I really should be in bed :-).

Jon

I believe crooks101 is "he", but it doesn't matter. He was concerned with the internal heater not working properly in the "Normal" mode, and I respect his decision to give his Miele. As other posters pointed out, this particular firmware glitch could be easier worked around, but he wanted formal fix from Miele immediately and had some problems communicating to the Miele support.

In the ballpark, new Miele super large w48XX washer/dryer set demonstrates outstanding quality not mentioning water savings. My water bill (for a family of three) now is $40 less comparing to the time when I used my old top loader.

If you are not happy with the recent energy saving standards (I don't like this "savings" trend either) you can add water levels through the service menu. Of course, it is the first model year and some issues do exist, but nothing so far that can't be fixed or worked around.

I just had the 4840 installed 3 days ago and have done a ton of laundry to catch up. I have never owned a Miele before or, for that matter, a FL. So all I have to compare is my 19 year old Kenmore TL that gave out and the Speed Queen FLs at the laundromat that I have frequented for the past month while trying to make up my mind.

My laundry has never been so clean. I put in an old knitted hat that had a lot of dog hair stuck to it in with some T-shirts and it came out of the WASHER without any hair whatsoever (even before it went into the dryer. My son's T-shirts are also coming out cleaner despite his propensity for using them as a napkin at mealtime.

I also had some 50 year old white (but yellowed) pillowcases that I had found at a garage sale that I was never able to get white with my other machine. They came out perfectly white. You might think this was because I used the hotter water settings, but noooooo! They were washed on NORMAL & warm! Okay, so you might think it's the different detergent, but I'm just using the Tide HE Free & Clear, where I had been using Tide Regular Free & Clear.

For the hottest water with no pre-wash I have used the whites setting and even though the manual says that you can't open the door after the temp reaches 130 degrees F, when I have opened the door and checked the water it was pretty amazingly hot with steam rolling out the door. I'll check this out with a kitchen thermometer next time. No, I have not shrunk anything with this hotter water.

The noise level is so quiet that I often can't tell that it's running when sitting in our family room two short corner turns away. I can feel a small amount of vibration when it is spinning but this washer is located on a wood frame main level built with a full basement underneath. There is no sign of extreme vibration or walking of the unit. The laundry room has vinyl flooring and we did not opt to pay $250 each for the next to useless drawers to elevate the washer & dryer. I may have my handy DH create a built-in looking riser. I should mention that this vibration is about half of the vibration that we felt from the Kenmore TL washer.

Just a note about adding items in the middle of the wash cycle: The manual states that after selecting the program (ie. Normal, Handwash, etc.) the machine will determine the size of the load. I take this to mean that you might not have enough water if you add a couple of thick towels after several minutes of washing.

I'm looking forward to checking our water bill after we quit watering our turf and after I catch up the wash including all of the sleeping bags from our summer camping trip.

I'll keep you posted if I notice problems with the heater.

it's like being president of the united states. you can't please all of the people all of the time. still, there are many people using the miele's and raving. hopefully i'll be one of them.

I have the new larger dryer in Gas. No problems with it but you do need to make sure you have the proper venting for it(correct size vent pipe and correct type of vent pipe material) because the dryer moves a lot of lower heat air.

First as many here know I am a long-time, totally-happy, user of (now) older Miele machines. And ya know, based on what I've read about (and to a small degree seen in showrooms) the last two generations of Mieles, I am so very happy my machines show no signs of turning up their toes any time soon.

Mieles have historically been positioned as the ne plus ultra of washing machines (ignoring the famous ZUG machines which don't work with US electricity). And I can tell you that mine are reliable, easy to use work horses. The build-quality of the machine is superb and washing performance standards of mine (1918) are excellent, as well.

But, starting with 12XX line nearly two years ago and now with the latest generation 48XX models it is my view that with the machines made for the US market Miele is heading down the wrong path. This choice seems to be partly due to the ever-increasing US energy and water use rules, but mostly because Miele has decided (stupidly in my view) that to sell their machines in the US they must chase the US appliance consumer ever-downward in functionality and performance. From comments Miele C/S and what their sales persons in their own showrooms have told me they are convinced that their target market here in the US is more interested in buying the upscale image that Miele has enjoyed and less interested in actual washing performance.

I haven't examined the latest 48XX models (i.e. gone to my dealer and taken them apart, I've only oggled them as set-up), but I know the 12XXs still seemed to have the same build-quality, but as to washing functionality, well ....!

Many people who switch from TL's will find the newer Mieles delightful, and probably satisfactory machines as I note from some previous posters above. May I suggest that that is less the specific result of a Miele machine than the simple switch from TL's to the general class of FL and not related to the brand? And of course, Mieles still have a nice look and physical feel, but I think they have lost their way in the wash function pathway by dumbing down the cycle selections, user options, and of course the latest idiocy of not having the heater run in the normal cycle that drove Crooks so batty. (Would be a deal-killer for me, too.)

The saddest thing is that Miele doesn't appear to care about those of us who put little stock in the high-end status of a particular brand, but who are fanatics about washing performance. It seems to me that their brand image and market position are most effectively supported by the washing fanatics, even if the largest segment of the market has much lower expectations or requirements.

Think about what you "know" about Miele .. that they are the best machines out there, even if, also, the most expensive? If you turn that idea around 180 degrees, what do you get? That they are the most expensive machines in the market, but also the best performing washing machines. All good, except once the market begins to perceive that the washing performance may have been changed down (for whatever reason.) Then you get the brand identity that goes like this: Mieles are the most expensive (and that alone will make some buyers happy) washing machines available, but the washing performance has fallen to the level of "average" Fls. Oops!

In other words if BMW makes pricey cars that driving afficionados adore, that's good, even if most owners never max out the performance capabilities. But if BMW starts making pricey cars that have the performance capacity of say, a Taurus, what happens?

So, in answer to the OP's question: Yes, Miele makes the most expensive washing machines. Yes, I believe that the 12XXs and most likely, though as I noted I haven't looked under the skin, yet, the 48XX series have Miele-grade build quality. But, for both of them and in particular the latest crop, I think the choices made by Miele for their machines in the US are unfortunately not the best performing that they could have been made (for the 12XXs, as that model is much more functional in non-US markets) or might have been for the made-for-the-US-market-only 48XXs.

And, finally, if you've moved from (or are planning to) a TL, you will likely find them quite satisfactory. The pity is that they are not as good as they ought to be, and it seems that Miele is counting on most of their customers not knowing the difference and assuming that what passes for Miele peformance these days is the best there is. And that's not true. The older machines were (and in most cases still are since they last so long) much better washing machines. But new owners won't realize that because they've been told so much about the vaunted washing performance quality of Mieles. Too bad, it's not still there.

And that raises the question of whether Miele's significant price differential is worth it, when compared to other high-quality FL options. It used to be no contest if you wanted the best washing performance; now, I believe the differential is much less justified when compared to other quality FL machines.

If I needed new washing machines I would look for used older Mieles (1918, 1986 etc.) before I would consider paying for 12XX or 48XX model machine. Assuming the build-quality remains on them I wouldn't want to sign up for two decades of under-performance frustration!

So, Asolo, go look at the Mieles, but also look at ASKO, Duets, the Sears behemoths, and perhaps the LGs at Home Depot. You could very well get the same washing performance (or better performance in the case of an ASKO, but maybe not build-quality) from all of them. And none will cost as much as the Mieles.

Maybe, too, in a few years Miele will come to its senses.
HTH,

Molly~

Molly,

I hear your opinions about the washing abilities of the newer mieles.

Do you have any objective data that supports your opinions. That means side by side washing comparisons, etc.

I often see on this site the confusing of opinion for data.

Rob

Molly,

Thank you for your post, you definitely made a lot of good points.

I absolutely agree with your statement that just a simple switch from TL to FL makes a difference. But let's look at the average FL washer from the engineering standpoint, mechanically it's not something sophisticated. We have a water pump, drain hoses and a big drum that rotates back and force. What makes a difference, it's how much water used on each cycle, and how long you turn your laundry upside down during the basic wash. As long as the basic drum is well polished and doesn't tear your socks (exactly what Whirlpool TL did with mine) you are OK.

Now, the water. Unless you are completely out of your mind or hypnotized by the "energy saving" marketing, you hate this current trend with all your guts. But giving up is not an option, at least to me. 4840 gives you a very rich set of options and workarounds to overcome all stupid water restrictions.

Molly, great post.

And yes, he.

Let me be clear, the Miele is not a POS - just an overpriced FL. It does not wash any worst nor any better than any Whirlpool, LG, Samsung, etc. Miele NA has gone for the high-end boutique appliance market and left their roots, IMHO. Perhaps they had to make this move, since the competition can make good enough FLs now, or so it seems. And all outperform almost any TL, so most folks just assume their new Miele did it not knowing almost any FL would clean as well for a lot less money. At least no damage done - except the pocketbook.

Perhaps Miele was the one FL to buy at one time. Just like at one time, Sony was the only TV to buy. Or even more to the point, at one time Maytag was the only TL to buy and top rated by CR- for years. Guess Miele had to go after the high-end market appeal to survive or make more profit. Obviously, their prior NA marketing strategy was not working in gaining market share. A few folks remember the old Miele and we expected more for a new super large Miele FL - not just good enough for the average easy to satisfy NA target customer. Heck, Miele tried to convince me I did not need a heater and cold wash was better for my clothes. Unfortunately, I remember their old marketing sales pitch for a great FL washer design - and believed it. Sigh...

Would I consider the Miele if it was priced similar to the Whirlpool or other? Perhaps at one time, Frankly, not now. I know too much and have gotten a chance to use two Miele machines for months, so I know them pretty well.

Bottom line: I did not find the Miele to have a rich set of options -even via the non-documented firmware access. I could not even get Custom cycle or Sanitary with high rinse water level via firmware override, nor a 4th rinse nor a profile wash. Things the competition does by front panel controls. And the W48xx (both W4800/W4840) shook the 2nd level like mad even after adding a 1 1/2 of plywood flooring. My same sized HE5t with same floor, same location, with similar HS spins has never yet shook the house nor rattle a dish. Why? For the money you would expect better engineering/suspension/balance control instead of mostly cosmetic all glass door or a SS paddle in drum. And who wants to live with 20 years of shaking and limited heater/water controls? And for 2x the cost- not impressed at all.

I have had the HE5t for about a month now. Is the HE5t perfect? No, but then it does not claim to be God's gift to the washing world at 2x the cost. Meanwhile, I get my wash just as clean or cleaner, less shakes, and had a big smile depositing the over $3k Miele refund check in the bank.

Here is an example of the shift in Miele marketing. Compare the video link below with the marketing material around 2000. It is a beautiful video. Very well done and quite professional. Nice music. But total content free about why you would really buy a W48xx. All glitz. It all plays to the supposedly 100 year history of the company and their quality image without telling you anything. It just plays to the image, prestige, cache, snob- typical of high-end marketing. Similar to $500 dollar 100% UV stopping plastic sunglasses vs the 100% UV five bucks ones at Wal-Mart. Or a Lexus ES350 over a 6cyl Camry. Both get the job done. Or the same crowd, I suppose, that will spend $10k on a gas cooking stove vs just a cast iron gas burner GE.

http://www.miele.ca/miele/video/LCvideo.wmv

For Pete's sake, Miele. It is just a washing machine. Get back to the basics! And when in your 100 year history did you forget about full temp/water controls on your high end machines or your high end machines might not be in the basement with concrete floors, but 2nd floors?

From W48XX user manual: "For best performance front loading washers should be installed on the ground floor or basement of the building. A concrete or reinforced floor is the most suitable surface..... If the installation must be on a wooden joist floor...."

"If must"- get real! Of course, this is something you don't hear about until you bring it home to your nice 2nd floor installation. Hmm- kind of like the video portrayed. Did not see a lot of concrete with that disappearing lady walking across the room.

hmmm... well, i traded in my bmw for a lexus two years ago. it was overpriced as well. if not the new miele's what then? i want the lexus of washer/dryers: a well built machine with excellent service and reliability.
i originally considered the bosch units before settling on miele. should i head back? thanks for the information.

From a market perspective it will be interesting to see what happens when CR tests the new Miele W48xx machines. I'm no fan of CR with regard to their washing machine testing, but you can't minimize their power to make or brake products in the market. Capacity will no longer be the factor that perpetually pegs them at the bottom of the ratings. Miele wanted to play the mainstream (except for price) big american FLer game using the same playbook as all the other competitors and in this regard the CR rankings are the holy grail. Whoever hits the top spot gets the buzz for a while; you see it by the sheer number of posts regarding this top spot machine in this forum as well.

crooks101 - good to hear your HE5t experience is going OK. Don't know if I missed it, but would still enjoy reading your review of the machine in an appropriate thread.

Well, maybe I am a down-grader by nature. I kept the BMW for 6 years, but went to Toyota & Nissan. Never regretted it. Had a Audi before the Bimmer - that was a POS, IMHO.

So thought I the Miele was the Lexus of washing machines. Seems it was the MB and all the reliability issues.

LOL.

gordonr, yes, I will try to post something after I get a little more experience on HE5t. But as noted, pleased so far.

I know crooks101 complained about not getting higher water levels on the rinses on the custom cycle. I have found a work-around with the miele 4840. Instead of using the sensitive setting which gives an extra rinse. I use the Quick Rinse feature which does provide a higher water level and gives two rinses with the second rinse being the one that the fabric softener is dispensed in. I don't seem to be having a problem with the cleanness of our clothes so I'm not really interested in higher water levels for the wash.

Just to report that the heater still does not work on the Normal setting. Our miele washer was just delivered last week. Although I think it won't do any good, I am still going to complain.

Crooks,

After reading your comments, I realize I am a down-grader too! I had an Acura for several years, and now I have a Honda Fit. I have to admit funtionality and fuel economy played into the decision as I live in the city with street parking where a small car has more parking options, and I also wanted to do my part to reduce the energy I use, but I don't miss the leather seats or moon roof. When I bought my last dishwasher, I selected the lower grade Bosch. It cleans extremely well, and the basic Heavy, Normal, and Quick cycles it has meets all my needs. So here is to downgrading!

annaw,

I would not be surprised at all if the Miele was intentionally designed to not use the heater during the normal cycle. That cycle is used when the machine is rated for energy usage, and other models, like the Kenmore HE5t and Whirlpool Duets don't activate the heater on the normal cycle either. While the Bosch does use the heater on all cycles, its default water temperature is lower.

Joe

I would be willing to bet that Miele had to do this in order to get EnergyStar compliance.

The fact that manufacturers have to do this (reduce water and power) doesn't bother me as much as what it says about how much of both we have available.

re: "I would be willing to bet that Miele had to do this in order to get EnergyStar compliance."

This may be true, but EnergyStar still calculates the energy used by your domestic hot water heater in their calculations so not using the heater doesn't give you a free lunch. Maybe the rules favor not using an internal heater - don't know. Even if this is true, a vendor like Miele who is suppose to be the world's expert on washing technology should have given an "alternative normal" (call it whatever you like) which uses the heater. Another words, play the game but still deliver the goods.

The problem with that washer is that it uses 120v instead of 240v. That would have hamstrung them on the size of the heater, in that it will be no better than anyone elses (like 1500w max).

Greetings everyone,

After having done a few days of research, I finally decided today on the Miele W1918. I called every dealer in town, and finally found one. Apparently they had one stashed away in a warehouse. I'll see it first hand next week but have already made a deposit.

In the interest of confirming my decision, I'd like to offer my rationale for buying it. Hopefully I haven't made too many mistakes in my reasoning, but if I have I would certainly appreciate clarification. Many members here seem to know a lot about Miele washers and washers generally.

Our motivation for buying this washer stems from the fact we're about to have a baby in the next few weeks and that we've decided on using cloth diapers. We were told at the time of purchasing the diapers that FL were fine but that it was preferable to have extra amounts of water compared to the normal amount. After doing some Internet research on diaper cleaning, some people also recommended prewashes and extra rinses. We were further advised to make sure the first wash was with cold water and the second wash was with hot water.

Therefore, our total needs boiled down to the following: prewash with cold water; normal wash with hot water; "extra rinse"; and "water plus." Since our washer is going to be located two floors down in the basement, we wanted a washing machine that could be programmed to do all of these things.

Of the new washers on the market, the only FL I've found with the function "water plus" is the LG Tromm (both the steam and non-steam version). It also has "extra rinse" and "prewash." I'm not certain if the temperature of the prewash for the LG is the same as the normal wash.

Over the course of my research I had heard that Miele used to have the option of "water plus" (mentioned on this message board I believe) so I headed down to the Miele showroom to ask some questions. None of the new models had this option, nor had the Miele consultant heard of it (I now find this unusual). The consultant also told us that Miele by default has two rinses and that a third rinse can be added. We were looking at the W4800 at this point. I was told by another Miele spokesperson/technician by phone that the Miele prewash is always in cold water.

One of the most useful research tools I found was the operation manuals for the various machines. At some point, I came across the Miele W1918 operation manual. This is when I discovered previous Miele's had the "water plus" option. I also discovered that this Miele had not two but four rinse cycles for cotton loads. It also seemed to me that it had better controls for regulating temperatures for each cycle. Through another useful thread on this message board, I consulted the Canadian version of the Miele W1918 operation manual. This manual indicated a number of other programs that could be added to some of the cycles-- such as "high water level" for cotton rinses and "5th rinse for Cotton Cycle".

Therefore, when comparing the newer Miele (4800) to the older miele (W1918), it seemed the older one had more features that suited our needs (of course, it's a smaller machine, but this doesn't matter to us much). This comparison also applies to the same sized W1113 I believe.

Bottom line:

W1918: prewash (not sure if temp can be set), wash (possible max temp of 95C/203F), 5 possible rinse cycles, "high water level" programming, and "water plus" option. Not sure what the difference is between "high water level" and "water plus". I think one sets the Cotton cycle at a higher water level by default. It also has a max spin of 1600 rpm. Uses 220V (we have a dryer plug but no dryer, so no prob).

W1113: prewash (not sure if temp can be set), wash ( not sure about max temp), 3 possible rinse cycles, no water level control, not sure about rpm but the W4800 goes to 1300pm. Uses 110V.

Therefore, all things considered, the W1918 seems to me a better machine at the level of programming. It seems less energy efficient, but I really didn't want to take a risk with getting a machine that can't properly clean these diapers. Once we've made it through this phase, we can become more energy efficient with our normal washes. I paid 2300$ CDN (tax incl) for it, and even though it's an older model, I think it's worth it, especially if it lasts 20 or so years (please note, prices up here are much higher than in the states--same model is being sold online in US for 1600$ or so). I also prefer the Miele over the LG because they're built to last.

In terms of practical info I'd like to know (other than if my assessment is more or less correct):

do most FL have two rinse cycles by default?
will the Miele prewash be with cold water (can it be modified)?
are five cycles excessive?
what other models can adjust water levels or have the water plus option?
what other good or bad things does the W1918 have in stock?
1600rpm? What other models come close?
Did I make the right decision or am I paying too much?

Well that sums it up. Thanks. Hope this also adds some food for thought in comparing the new Miele with the old.

I hope my post wasn't too off topic.....I didn't want to start another miele thread and this one seemed more or less appropriate.

Well, I think you've done a very smart thing by buying the Miele 1918. That's what I have and I think they're the great machines!

To answer your questions: the pre-wash is cold fill, and I believe cold all the way through, but I can check for you tomorrow if it's a deal killer.

No clue on what "most FLs" have for rinses, only know mine which have 3 (askos) or 4 or 5 (1918s).

Five rinses may be excessive, but I've used them from time to time. If I was washing dipes then I'd leave it as a standing setting (the reprogramming of the standing changes is a fiddly thing). But be aware the changed water level is not really a large quantity change - no suds line half the way up the window or anything.

Only bad thing I know about the 1918 is the full pre-wash, high temp, extra 5th rinse will take in excess of two hours to complete, but you can set it to work overnight with the delay timer so it's ready for you when you wake up. (You may find you need to use liquid detergent for overnights if the powdered products get stuck in a partly wet dispenser. The workaround on that is to towel dry the dispenser before adding powders that are going to sit there for a bit. If you use liquids be sure to ask for/beg/demand (hey, you're paying quite a bit after all) the little plastic detergent cup that holds the liquid detergents.

1600 rpm is the bomb for cottons and will help save energy in drying the dipes, big time.

I have no idea about the cost. I am frankly surprised you even found a NIB 1918. If mine died I'd search the whole country to get another, and now Canada. Though since it is discontinued model it seems to me you ought be able to get a break. I have no idea what $2200CDN amounts to, but I would pay $1600US for a new 1918 if I needed one since I think the newer Miele's don't quite cut it.

You may need to double check your electrical supply. Miele requires not only a special socket (not expensive if bought at Home Depot) but you have to make sure your 220V is "wired" correctly. There are details about the phase and grounding which always confuse me. Just because it's 220 does not guarantee it's OK, but it's highly likely to be- just double check, first. Anybody who knows about electricity and wiring would be able to tell you.

You don't have to hook it up to your domestic hot water system as it will happily run on a cold-water line only. (You do have to hook two hoses up to the machine but they can both be cold lines Y-ed off a single cold water supply pipe. This helps keep your hot water for other uses. I especially like taking a hot shower while I'm washing my field clothes.)

Don't be shocked at how small it looks. It will wash a lot more than you think.

YOu have made a good choice, and are lucky to have found one of the best machines. I'm not sure you're loosing much in energy savings as you will still have all the option to wash some loads in cooler water, and shorter cycles if you choose.

Welcome to the 1918 club!

Molly~

I have the 1986 which is the next model release up from the 1918. I was all set to get a 1926 which is the 6K version of the 1918 but when I was ready to buy the 1986 was on the scene.

It does have a cold prewash but the water in this prewash is gradually heated to warm, so if you are using a hot wash by the time the water is drained from the prewash it will be warm, and then the hot wash will take over after that. I know folks talk about profile wash but this does almost the same thing..anyway everything gets clean. I have had the machine since January of 2003 and the prewash takes care of stains, heavy dirty white socks..whatever else.

This machine does not have 4 or 5 rinses. It only has 2 and a 3rd one can be added, but I think the washer uses the same amount of water as the 1926(the larger version of the 1918) because it takes a higher level fill for each rinse than the 1926 is using for each rinse...so the 1926 is giving 4 or 5 rinses, the 1986 is giving 2 or 3 but using the same amount of water...It is just more water at once giving a larger fill. I think this is the case but I have never SEEN the 1926 in action so I could be wrong about this.

The other difference in my model than the previous one is that I think the spins between each rinse are faster with the fastest speed during the final spin. The 1986 is larger than the 1918 and just like the 1926 the spin speed is only set to max at 1200rpms..although i get the feeling the machine could actually spin faster if it was programmed to do it.

The 1986 can be programmed to add extra water which is done in the wash and rinse but you can't find the instructions for this printed in ANY U.S.A manual. You can find them in manuals for other countries like Australia.

When it is programmed for extra water it will fill for the wash, tumble during the wash for about 6 minutes, then add a bit more water, then start tumbling faster. It continues this fast tumbling with more water until the end of the wash. For the rinses all of the fills will be high with the water always reaching up into the glass and you can see and hear the clothes being lifted dropped and then plunging through the water with a big splashes. I think water plus on the 1918 may give you this same amount of water.

The 1986 also has the fine rinse option like a previous poster mentioned and called it quick rinse. With this you get 2 very high level fills with the last water coming through the fabric softener dispenser. I use this for rinsing comforters. The 1918 also has the fine rinse option.

The 1986 has the shorter cycle as default but I don't think this is the same rapid wash cycle that is on the 1918. The short cycle on the 1986 lasts about 41 to 52 minutes depending on the water temperature. This short cycle works for everyday soil. The only time I use the extended(longer cycle) is for very soiled clothes.

One other thing I like about the 1986 is that after it has sensed the size of the load it will adjust the cycle time. If the load is small it will reduce all parts of the cycle, so a small load using the default cycle could give you a 10 minute wash... and shorter rinses and still everything is clean.

One thing I was disappointed about was that some of the temperature options were removed from the 1986. I think the 155F and the 180F temperature settings were removed. Mine goes from 140F and then to 190F. I rarely use 190F. I will use 140F for cottons, but everything else gets 105F or 120F.
The 1918 giving 180F would be good if you are using cloth diapers.

Once you use a temp over 120 the wash water will be cooled down before being pumped out. I think this is true on the 1918 as well.

What I like about both of these models is that you can select the temperature instead of having to select some nondescript cycle name like whiteswhites, or casual or rugged whatever...I mean what? When I wash I look at the fabric---"Oh it's cotton and can take high heat"...then I consider the soil level and then I move the selector to the cotton area and pick the temp I want. This works better for me--having the temperatures on the dial for me to select.

Like the 1918 and 1926 this model uses 220V and with that it doesn't take it any time to heat the water. It cost me $37 to get the line run from the electric box to the washer and it was well worth the cost.

I was set to get the 1918/1926 but I am very happy with the 1986 and I don't plan on getting another washer for a long time.

If you have found a 1918 I would go for it!

About the newer Miele washers not using the heater on normal. I agree this may have been done to meet energy standards. I suspect the orginal intention was to use the heater and that is why the temps are shown in the manual, then after the manuals were printed the heater was disabled. If that's the case the manauls need to be revised.

Does anyone know if these new models meet 2007 requirements or are they set to meet 2008 energy requirements? I think I read that they are meeting 2008 requirements but I would like to find a definite answer.

Just looked at the Energy Star website. I'm sure in reality it's somewhat complicated and even corporate political as to how the tests are defined in detail, but it also tough to defend Miele's "broken" Normal cycle by using Energy Star requirements as an excuse. In the definition of how kWh/year (the electrical usage) they say:

"This number is the estimated annual energy use of this machine under typical conditions. It is based on an average usage of 392 loads of laundry per year, or just under 8 loads per week. Your actual energy consumption will vary depending on the amount of laundry you do, the size of the loads, and the temperature settings you use. This figure is calculated according to Department of Energy test procedures and incorporates the estimated energy consumed by the washer, and the energy needed to heat water with an electric water heater. If you use a gas water heater, you will use significantly fewer kilowatt hours, but will consume some gas to heat the same water."

If the test procedure adds some loss factor for pipe between your DHW source and the washer (and I don't know if it does) than using the internal heater would actually give you a better rating. All electrically operated water heaters really have the same efficiency when it comes to heating water.

Here is the data listed for Miele washer on the ES website:

----------Volume----kWh/yr----MEF-------EF--------%------Water---Annual Water Use
-----------(cu ft)--------------------------------------Better----Factor----(gal/yr)

W1113------1.73------113------2.11------1.26------67%------4.5------3,045
W1119------1.73------113------2.11------1.26------67%------4.5------3,045
W1203------2.08------127------2.04------1.26------62%------4.4------3,547
W1213------2.08------127------2.04------1.26------62%------4.4------3,547
W1215------2.08------127------2.04------1.26------62%------4.4------3,547
W4800------3.07------186------2.40------1.26------90%------4.2------5,091
W4840------3.07------186------2.40------1.26------90%------4.2------5,091

To further debunk the argument regard ES being the reason for this injured normal cycle, just look at the kWhr/yr columns for the older machines and new ones. Given that the machines have different capacities it's more meaningful to calculate kWhr/hr per cubic foot capacity. If you do this, something like the W1215 (which uses it's internal heater in normal) comes in at 61 and the new W48xx comes in at 60.6 (or about the same). It is also true that if you do this same calculation for a Kenmore HE5t or the LG steam they both come in about 10 point lower (or more efficient) than the W48xx. Given that capacity definitions seem to be a game of sorts between manufacturers who knows what any of this really means. Hopefully people buy a machine that meets their needs and don't pay too much attention to all this ES stuff.

Thanks very much for your replies. I'm going to buy this new older version Miele with confidence! I'll keep the tips in mind as well.

Gordnor

Since these larger Mieles are not competing against the smaller Miele's but are competing against the larger units being sold in the USA, what does a comparison of the W4840 with some of the other larger units show?

I am all for a energy efficient. I built a super insulated house in 1988. But one had to use some reason in cost vs benefits even with lofty goals.

Looking at my HE5t( Miele was similar), the EPA estimated annual cost using gas is $9 a year. Yes, that is a year. About 3 gal of gas today to put it into perspective. So even if a unit was 50% less efficient you would pay less than $15 a year to wash your clothes vs $9.

Heck, one could easily make a energy cost of owning your own washer vs just cost of driving to a Laundromat for most folks and save more energy than using less water or a built-in heater.

But trying to eek out a few more % points in efficacy is almost saving no real money and losing a lot in wash/rinse efficiency. It I could I would get a NIB "old" Miele, when they made a real washer instead of a over priced Whirlpool.

Having owned the Miele W4840/W4840, it seems they just tried to copy the Whirlpool/Kenmore instead of really making an outstanding washer. It would have been so easy to do both- a dumb mode and an advanced. The film/digital SLR cameras makers having been doing it for years to meet all market demands in one camera body. And successful.

I have said this before. If we in the U.S.A are really serious about saving energy we will get out of the cars and walk, bike or take mass transit and if we don't have mass transit we will lobby for it. And we will stop using dryers and line dry. And we will stop complaining about the price of high gasoline and other energy and realize that we are not helping anything by continuing to use it the way we do so that we can live like we always did.

And even if I do save in the winter my energy utility will add a weather normalization charge on the bill which basically says...."you didn't use as much as we thought you would so here is an extra charge to cover what we thought you should have used but didnt"...Yeah right. So there is not point to this exercise at all.

Now realize that I don't complain about the price of gasoline but I don't do anything to help either..except maybe take mass transit so I am not accusing anyone of doing anything...simply stating what I think.

So I am not really all that interested in the energy savings found on the energy Star Site, however all manufactures feel pressure to compete in this area so they must look as good as they can..even if they have create a dumbed down useless cycle for measuring purposes. This is how a HOT wash used to be 130F - 140F and has now become 110F. Warm used to be over 100F now it is 80F. sorry no..Hot is not 110 and warm is not 80F....but for good energy ratings...of course it is. Meanwhile consumers are running around wondering why they can't get their shirts clean like they used to 8 years ago, buying detergent additives, and bleaching the life out of things so they look white while using 80F water.

Has any one ever read any of steps in the energy tests? I read one for DW... By the time it is over and a rating is obtained..the whole rating is meaningless. So for me...does it clean and rinse using a little bit of water...then... OK... forget the rating.

I am so glad I have an older washer that heats to 200F if I want it to.

A lot of whining about loss of high temps, myself included. After a few months with my new Miele W4842, I can confidently say that all the complaining about loss of high temps is much ado about nothing. I get great wash results using the normal cycle, heater or no heater, and have no complaints. When I want the heater on during the entire cycle, I use the Wrinkle-Free cycle, or when I need higher temps I use Extra White.

There's really nothing to complain about here.