I see two sinks in both renderings, a sink near the LR and a round prep sink behind the sofa wall. Is the larger sink the "washing up area" that you mention? Is it the "farm sink" that you mention? You mention a sink that is 24" and one that is 30". I'm sorry but I'm confused. Other than my sink confusion I like this plan better than your original. I'd like to study it more after my sink confusion is cleared up : ) I would suggest that you consider moving your prep sink to one side or the other on that counter run so you have more room to spread out and prep.

If it's any help, our range is more than 6' from our sink and much more than 6' from our refrigerator! And it is fine.

Your new plan looks nice. I look at it and can definitely see cooking big meals there in happiness.

I particularly like the separate sections of counter/cabinet. You could build them to look like free-standing pieces, faux legs and so on, if you wanted a more period look.

I don't recall the dimension, but looks like about 30" on either side of the prep sink? That is not real spacious, I'd consider shifting the sink a bit to one side or the other, so that you have a very ample stretch of countertop on one side. For that matter, why is the prep counter so short, relative to the space available?

Unless you use the microwave during prep (?), might consider moving it close to the refrigerator. Usually stuff goes from the refrigerator straight to the microwave. The dishwasher could be on the left of the big sink and the microwave on the right.

Where will you prepare beverages - tea, coffee, etc? Perhaps locate that activity on the long counter by the window, since you have water, hopefully microwave, room for an electric kettle, etc. The point is not to let the prep counter get cluttered up with tea pots and coffee presses and whathaveyou.

The not-real-close distance from refrigerator to prep area is, I think, tolerable if the rest of your prep stuff is stored close to the prep area. For example, if the bookcase were used as a pantry. Moving the microwave also gives you more room in the prep area for trash pullout, knives and tools, prep bowls, spice drawer, etc.

Here is a thought. You have a pretty long walk from kitchen to dining area, carrying food and glasses and busing dirty dishes, etc. Suppose you had a butcher block-topped work table on casters, that slides into a nook - maybe somewhere under the long stretch of window counter. You could pull it out to move stuff around, or if you simply wanted more work surface close to the prep or cooking zones. The rest of the time it would be tucked away. This might make up for losing the "cooking table" that I know you wanted. Heck, maybe you could cut down the cooking table and put it on wheels. I'm assuming the relevant floors are single-level and smooth.

I think this is very workable. 6' isn't really bad. You can improve it by making the counters extra deep (30") if they won't interfere with the bookcase. Extra deep counters are very useful! Half the reason I put an island in my kitchen is that I couldn't make deeper counters work.

What's the round thing in the prep area? That's not the sink, right? Is it a light fixture? I'm hoping it's not actaully at counter level because it breaks up your working space.

I like it very much! Nice discrete work areas -- even for as many as three cooks. And NO interior corners, which I just hate. Every inch of this space is PRIME.

Regarding your 6' aisles -- Why not deepen your countertops on the range and prep sides to use up a few more inches? On the range side, a few narrow recessed utensil and knife holders behind your cabinets could free up lots of drawer space for other uses and keep your countertops clutter-free. On the prep side, a raised counter or counter-like top to the half-wall could be great for casual buffets. Just scoot the sofa and you're ready to party! -- Not that this happens in New Orleans ;-)

The only potential problem I see is the fridge opening into a wall. You'll need a spacer (or a built-in) but that's not the end of the world...

Does anyone else think it will feel odd to have a kitchen counter continuing well into the the family room?

I think Marcolo makes a good point.
I hate to be too practical or boring, but is there a reason you don't run your counters/cabinets to the end wall? Then the French cabinet could go in the area where counter sticks into the family room?

The fridge, I think, could throw a wrench into this whole plan, because I think the spacer would have to be 6-12", which scoots the cleanup sink even further toward the family room. I wish the fridge could be on the end of the prep area. Then a pantry could take its current location for some more substantial storage.

So, to recap, in case my cold-stuffed head is making for some rambling text:

1)cabinets and counters to top wall
2)French cabinet to area at the family room end of the sink, for less convenience but a nicer look for the family room than the counter
3) Fridge to family room end of the prep run
4) Pantry space where fridge is, but maybe narrower so sink can be under the window

We had a plan early on that included a FD fridge against a wall like that.

I went and played with/measured the model we liked (Jenn Air Eurostyle) and it would have opened, but precluded removing the veggie drawer for cleaning without first removing the whole fridge door... I probably would have needed 12" on the side for that to work. So you might want to vist an appliance store with a tape measure before you commit to that.

I understand the reasoning of not running the short run of cabs to the end of the wall because (I'm assuming) you want to make it appear centered against the range run. I love the separation of zones, however, I'm bugged by the empty corners. I see them as dirt catchers. Plus, a small space with empty real estate doesn't seem ideal to me.
Could you:
extend both the cooking and prep runs to the wall
put the frig at the end of the prep run
scoot the cleanup run down to the end
put the french cab where rhome suggested

You still maintain the integrity of separate zones but in my eye perhaps maximize usuage of your space better.

Did we just say the same thing, Remodelfla? I like the way you think. ;-)

I just re-read your post rhome... we did! Geez... I oughta read more carefully. I lost my voice the past couple of days... maybe I also lost some awareness!

That's ok...I have a cold, so I understand. We often see different things in plans, so it's nice that people with different viewpoints can see the same possibilities. ;-) Course, it only counts if it helps Grlwprls!

I get the unfitted look, but:

On the range wall, I probably would run the base cabs. to the corner because it is so close. Something could be done to compensate for the loss of symmetry.

On the prep run, I think its far enough away that it could work although I would consider aligning it with the end of the opposite run of counters, rather than centering it on the wall (more or less aligned with the sofa) to open up that corner more. So it *would be centered on the wall from the FACE of the bookcase rather than starting from the back of the bookcase at the wall, more or less.

Is there any reason why the prep sink and microwave couldnt switch places with the big sink and dishwasher? This might be better ergonomically, and its the same number of steps to store the dishes anyway, maybe less if the DW is toward the doorway to the LR.

I love the addition of the bookcase and its use but then again, I love the unfitted look. I also like the focus on your range wall. And you've got to love the simplified, less costly installation.

I had thoughts similar to those of remodelfla, rhome, marcolo and palimpsest so some of the following is repeating their wonderful advice but I've wrapped it up in a slightly different solution for you to consider.

As others have suggested, I'd run the oven and prep sink sections to the top of the wall to eliminate the dust catching, lost space. But I'd go one step further. I'd add shallow base cabinets with counters on that top wall on either side of the bookcase. Depending on dimensions and door clearance, you could vary the depth of the cabinets vs. the bookcase. In my mind's eye, I see the cabinets as shallower than the bookcase but it all depends on door clearances.

These cabinets can be more open storage with baskets for onions, potatoes, or cookbooks or whatever strikes your fancy or closed storage for whatever you need to hide away.

I'd also run the range and prep sink cabinets longer towards the bottom wall and not end so far from the doorways and then center the range on the wall from the face of the bookcase as palimpsest suggested.

I also think it looks a bit odd to have the main sink/DW counter extend into the LR so I'd end it even with the kitchen's half wall.

As for your sink not being centered under your window, I've been dealing with this, too, although mine won't end up quite as off center as yours appears in your plan. A KD told me that Americans are hung up with sinks under windows and most especially with sinks centered under windows. It's not such a big deal in Europe. That's not saying you can't do it, just know it's not the norm and it could be an issue later. Can you swap the DW to the other side, put a garbage pull-out in its place and move the sink closer to the fridge? Or swap prep sink with clean-up sink as palimpsest suggested. Then you have a bit more wiggle room.

One other thing. If you can't swing the cost of 30" deep cabinets or your cabinet line doesn't offer them, get 24' cabs and set them 6" from the wall. I wish I could tell you who's great idea I'm repeating.

At first glance, I liked the idea of moving the fridge as rhome and remodelfla suggested. The only reason I hesitate is that I seem to remember you posting that your husband would use the storeroom area to mix drinks for guests. If so, then keeping the fridge where you have it will be much handier for him and will keep traffic out of the work area of your kitchen.

My impression is that the end of the counter in the family room is supposed to be a hutch. Maybe I read that wrong. Anyway, absent the hutch, you can have the extended counter and mitigate the awkward look of a "too long" kitchen counter, by varying the look, depth, color, etc. At the boundary of the kitchen, change the counter from stone to wood, the cabinets from painted to unpainted, the doors from inset to - you get the idea. Even change the counter height. That makes a visual break.

Ooooo Ooooo Ooooo I Had An Idea!

I earlier suggested a moveable "cooking" table and rolling cart on locking casters that tucks away somewhere in the counters when not in use. And I just suggested changing the look of that part of the counter that sticks into the family room. And that bit of counter is just about the length of a cooking table . . .

So, have the moveable cooking table "park" at the end of the wash counter, to be the last bit of counter that protrudes into the family room. Embed magnets in the edge of the table and in the corresponding spot on the wall, so that the table docks securely in the right spot and doesn't wiggle around.

Okay, that is kind of a Rube Goldberg idea.

"I'm bugged by the empty corners. I see them as dirt catchers. Plus, a small space with empty real estate doesn't seem ideal to me. "

I'm am also. i was thinking more along the line of lisa - running the counter to the walls and then swinging around and going along the other wall. you could have lower shallow cabs for pantry area. if there isn't a hutch for the other area - into FR, you could put the french bkcasse there and run that shallow cab/counter all along that wall. the corner areas on top could be used for canisters, knife block, the coffee pot, etc.

I also like the idea of switching the prep sink w/ the bigger one. then you could look out the window while prepping (is there a view?). i think it would also be easier and safer to turn from the stove w/ a pot of hot water to drain into the bigger sink w/o crossing the walkway between FR and back room.
besides the fridge being close to the back room for drinks, the end of the now prep run is only half a wall - it'd be too crowded at the other end by the FR.

I do think you are getting there with this kitchen - and it's looking really good to me!

I was also going to suggest a return of shallow lower cabs against the wall. You'd be surprised what you might be able to fit in them. But also think about adding some open, free-floating shelving on either side of the bookcase--a cute look, plus even more storage for cookbooks, nice prep bowls, etc.

Also move the prep sink to one side or ta'other so you get more counter space.

I like John's idea of changing finishes, height and door styles when you move from the kitchen to the family room--but how about taking that idea even further?

Replace the family-invading cabinet run with a built-in floor-to-ceiling hutch, with doors if you like. Now you've got excellent dish storage near the cleanup sink.

But wait, there's more.

Continue this built-in with a window seat under the window. Now you've got an extra place to sit and watch TV, or read.

And finally, on the other side of the window, put in a matching built-in hutch, so the entire window wall becomes a built-in "H". It gives you good symmetry, lots of storage, and maximizes a small space. Plus, it has enough presence on its own to stop the family room from feeling like it's being conquered by the kitchen.

Okay, let's see if I can answer everyone's questions and address concerns (some of which arise because the drawing is a bit incomplete)

Again, my architect is English so they, I have learned, have very different ideas about aisle widths, etc. In fact, my architect thinks it's crazy to have 42" aisles unless "you're very fat or wheelchair bound." I think this is a holdover from European appliances. You simply don't have a gigantic oven door or a 42" fridge door to swing into traffic in the typical English kitchen (even a bespoke one, from the books he brought me).

My architect favors designs by a J. Grey who uses lots of curved inlaid cabinets, but I definitely wasn't going there. I don't care for the look at all! But one thing Grey says is that "you must stay connected with the corners of your room." Again, the English typically have unfitted kitchens so they must have empty corners. I'm not sure how a kitchen corner is going to get any dirtier than say, a living room corner. Also, when you aren't trying to shove 10 lbs of kitchen in a 5lb kitchen sack it tends to look roomier because there's negative space upon which to rest your eye.

The run of cabinets with the main sink and dishwasher (Lyons St.) does in fact extend into the living room, but as johnliu pointed out, that's the hutch (probably with tall doors with brass chicken wire instead of glass) so it won't say "KITCHEN!!!" in the living room space. Or at least I hope it won't!

I think the Fridge needs to move down and basically take over all the real estate to the right of the window to allow for maximum function. I want to build something around it since it will be at the end of a major sight light for the great room. This will also help move the dishwasher *directly* under the window (which is being replaced with a turn and tilt casement) and gets the main 30" Shaw's - and its tall Herbeau tap - to the left of the window. 15" trash pullout, then a 24" drawer stack with the hutch above. But that gives me *ample* dish and glass storage. What it might not give me is a good place to stack enough dishes coming in from the dining area. I work L--->R so my natural inclination is to stack on what would be 15" of real estate. There would be about 12" in front of the hutch, too.

As for my husband, he'd have plenty of space to make drinks and there's still talk of a separate hospitality zone in the storeroom.

Moving on to the range area - those 12" pullouts to the left of the stove are going to have a Rev-a-Shelf stainless pullout peg system (rated to 150 lbs) for my All Clad. I asked the architect to run the counter all the way into the corner with a non drawer, narrow doored cabinet below. I can hide my embarrassing pantry goods there :-). I am not concerned about cabinet symmetry, but I am concerned about the range hood (48") being centered on the wall (and range, of course). My only concern here is that I work, again, L--->R and 24" to the left of the stove is a bit small for work space.

That being said, the prep wall is *all* messed up! It is supposed to start 18" in from the corner so as not to crowd the French bookcase. Then it's either a 24" or 30" drawer stack, a 24" sink base with the 24" IKEA farm sink, and a 24" cabinet with the microwave. I use my micro to melt butter and chocolate and only occasionally to nuke veggies. My family uses it to reheat leftovers. I think it will be fine in the prep area. My hope is to be able to have a small 12" overhang where I can tuck a stool at the end of this run - mainly for checking recipes and looking over cookbooks.

The bigger sink means that I can wash pots, etc. in that prep /"chef's" sink rather than dragging them across the room. It also means that I have plenty of space for draining a stock pot, etc. although I do have a pot filler (it was purchased when my old architect did the plans, and I hate to waste it).

If the 72" starts to feel like too much of a hike, I will just buy a narrow prep table.

The French cabinet to stand alone on the Upperline St. wall. Tuck my frequently used cookbooks in there, spices, flour, rices, peppers, salts.

There will still be overflow pantry storage, as well as the media equipment, in the storeroom along the backside of the range wall.

The cabinets in the washing up zone are going to be painted the same color as the front door with a rubbed finish (distressed). The range and prep runs are going to be cream colored distressed and given the appearance of being freestanding pieces of furniture.

I'm going to use waterloxed wood on the washing up area, beeswaxed/oiled wood in the prep zone and soapstone at the range. I used to have wooden counters and I really loved them. Would do marble, but my family is a wreck :-). Can always get a marble topped prep table, right?

I'm not adverse to doing wider countertops but then I can't buy them off the rack and cut them at home. Plus, despite everything, this is really a "budget" kitchen with a fair amount of DIY to keep the prices down. That 6" could end up being very expensive real estate.

Marcolo! That's an excellent Idea and one I will discuss with the architect today! Plus, that means I get my beloved window seat and a more useful place for the AV equipment.

That is a very clever solution!

In a previous plan, you had a media area in the corner (between the french shelf and the prep area) and it was accessed from the family room. Is that still the plan?
I like plllog's (and others) of making both prep and stove side 30 inches deep.
Have you considered making the doorway (next to the fridge)wider so the fridge can open? Maybe that is an option that is not too expensive and not too major. I guess the stairs would have to be wider as well but it might look nice having the kitchen opened up a little to that other unique area....
BTW I am so glad you are moving forward after that bad start!

swspitfire, after getting Marcolo's idea I realized that if I did something like that, it would be the perfect place for the media components. The current plan was to put them in the cabinets in the storeroom. The big issue there was DVDs...but blu rays take so long to load that we could walk the entire length of the house before it was ready!

Making the door wider by the fridge requires breaking and repouring the chainwall. That's a $4K job, so I really pushed my architect to work within the confines of the space as it is. Could it be better if we pushed it, sure. But my pocketbook wouldn't be!

I got so many great ideas the last time that helped me look outside the box. I couldn't give up that cooking table til I had storage to replace its function. I think this plan is as close as can be to having it all in a very small kitchen.

Your drawing looks like it was done in Sketchup? If not, what program did you use?

If you do draw a revised version w/ the "marcolo H" and so on, I'd love to see it. I think your kitchen plan is looking good. Seems like you really have some momentum.

My architect did that sketch. I'm not sure what archiCAD program he uses. Or if he even used his program - we did that while I was on the phone, pulled over on a street corner in the car!

I'm trying to teach myself Punch! home design studio for mac. Ummm, shortest learning curve, I think not. Either that or I'm just not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

I sent the word to my architect about the long "social window seat" and hutch for AV into the living room. I'm seeing a wide window seat (and that window is higher, so the seat can have a nice out of plumb back for maximum lounging) with tons of gorgeous pillows and wall mounted, swing arm reading lights. A little pull up table for tea...nice.

I sent the word to my architect about the long "social window seat" and hutch for AV into the living room. I'm seeing a wide window seat (and that window is higher, so the seat can have a nice out of plumb back for maximum lounging) with tons of gorgeous pillows and wall mounted, swing arm reading lights. A little pull up table for tea...nice.

Awesome! That really changes the function of that room--makes it much more comfortable and useful! You could add storage under that bench, either in a lift-up lid or pull-out drawers. And check whether you can make the bench deeper than the neighboring hutches, if need be. That sometimes works well.

I wrote a long post that the board software ate, however: Regarding the empty corners, I want you to picture something. You've been cooking in the kitchen for several months. From the range-side countertop, you've accidentally dropped crumbs...a bit of flour...some soup that dribbled off the edge...some raw meat juices that got onto the countertop and dripped down...maybe a brussels sprout that dropped and rolled into the corner. Look at that space, and picture exactly how you would clean it. Where would you stand, how would the broom or swiffer fit, what if you had to get down on your hands and knees to scrub up some really gross gunk? It's not a living room, and you can't just push the furniture out of the way.

Oh, wow, I'm coveting your window seat! What a great idea, marcolo.

grlwprls, marcolo expressed why I see the empty kitchen corners as a problem. I hate the narrow corners in my LR but at least I can move the furniture periodically to give the space a good cleaning. That's not possible with built-in cabinets and a likely very heavy when fully loaded bookcase.

I love the European perspective and it's good to incorporate a different aesthetic but since you are designing a kitchen in the US, I think it would be wise to blend his suggestions with American expectations.

I can't wait to see your updated version. I think your kitchen is going to be awesome!

The initial drawings of Marcolo's suggestion are starting to filter in, so I'll post when I get back. And I'll think about the corners and study the measurements.

I LOVE the french cabinet and can imagine how wonderful it will look filled with all sorts of kitchen stuff. The window seat idea for the LR is terrific, too.

If you decide to "fill in" the corners, you could then bump out both runs 6" to narrow the space between them. I'm not sure, but I don't think it would be too expensive to frame a 6" wall on both sides that would be a few inches higher than counter height and serve as a cool shelf to store salt, pepper, and other commonly used cooking ingredients/tools. One of those in the counter knife holders and utensil holders would fit there too, saving counter or drawer space. It could be tiled to match the backsplash (if you're using tile) or covered with a 4" backsplash matching the counters or even just painted.

Your style house does beg for an unfitted kitchen but it seems a shame to waste the space when there's so little of it. FWIW, DH's whole family is in the UK and I've haven't been in a single kitchen that wasn't fitted and they live in some very old houses. What they don't have is mixed taps. Go figure.

Could you extend the counter into the corner, with a decorative leg or something? That way you keep the look, while not having stuff fall on the floor! I love what you've come up with so far though.

Although I'm like cheri127, above: I'm English, lived there for my first 35 years, and like her DH, have never really seen a kitchen with open corners! I get the idea, but I wouldn't say it's typically English at all. And those single taps (my mother has them) drive me NUTS. Thankfully, they're fairly uncommon nowadays (except in my mother's house!!!).

I think if the corner is open enough, it will be easy enough to clean.

However, you could give a nod to this look by running the counter to the corner but not *turn the corner in any way, so that there would be open wallspace between the counter runs and the bookcase.

The distance "into the corner" is 18" (the depth of the book case) and the book case is only 46" wide at the base whereas the space from edge of counter to edge of counter is 72". That seems to me to be plenty of space to get a mop back there.

And while I'd like to admit it isn't true, if something particularly *tasty* were to fall over the edge of the counter into the corner, I am fairly certain my dogs would figure out a way to get in there after it. :-)

My kitchen suddenly doesn't seem very tiny! I'm waiting on the 3D rendering to come in to check things out.

The attached link shows a great example of what I think Cheri is suggesting for you. Wish I could've done it. Page down close to the bottom to see the pic that circuspeanut posted.

Here is a link that might be useful: Cheri's Idea

What is the total run of counterspace on the prep sink side? From the drawing, that 18" looks like a big portion of available workspace to sacrifice.

marcolo, it's

30" drawer stack/24" sink base with 24" IKEA sink (they design it that way)/24" cabinet with micro drawer

on the chef's sink; however, that top picture doesn't show that. That image was really fast just to see if we were on the right track. The sink also has a cutting board that "rides the rails" so to speak. That adds some work space.

So, your longest prep run is going to be 30"? Or did I misunderstand?

If it is, please, please go get a tape measure and mark out 30" for yourself. Then imagine rolling out pizzas and pasta; making Thanksgiving with four different vegetable dishes; trying out an Epicurious or Alton Brown recipe; or whatever else you would do, in 30".

I once had a kitchen with about that much prep space, plus a cutting board over the sink. During a meal of any complexity, I often had to place pans, prep bowls and other items on the floor. Yes, the floor.

I don't (and won't) bake except for the rare (extremely rare!) cake and I never make pasta, although I do know *how* to make pasta. I don't fiddle much with flour based cooking :-). Well, except for roux. It's hard to avoid roux in Louisiana!

I cooked for 12 in my old *extremely well appointed* kitchen using just the 18" - yes 18" beside the stove for prep. And I had *miles* of other counters - including that coveted long run between the sink and stove. Didn't use it. I will admit that I hate cooking in my MIL's kitchen because although she has an island, it's a barrier and she has nothing stored in it that is remotely related to prep. But that's *another* issue, no?

I cook well, and largely from scratch, but clearly I don't cook complex!

As an aside, if it turns out that 72" is too long a jog between work zones, I'll probably bring in a long, narrow table which would take some pressure off the counters to either side of the chef's sink.

Admittedly, my current 18" prep space is lacking, but that's because the crappy apartment's tiled countertop is broken up so I have an old (and slightly warped) IKEA cutting board over it. When I really get to chopping, the board moves in the opposite direction and walks all over and there's no way any food stuffs that touch that tile counter are going in my family's body, so prepping is possible, but not relaxing, there.

OK. I'm not trying to be a pest. I'm not trying to get you to do anything my way. I'm just concerned that your kitchen work well for you when it's done, especially after all you've been through. If you're committed to empty corners, then you're committed. Have you at least considered swapping the sink base with the drawer or micro stack?

All that aside, I can't wait to see what the "H" looks like in the renderings!