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crooks101

Miele W4800 new user experience

crooks101
17 years ago

Long note, Bottom line: I like it.

First, I had the Bosch WFK 2401 and matching dryer for about 7 years. It cleaned very well, but other than small size, I was pleased with it until the washer motor broke. This was the 2nd major failure. Dryer never broke- just makes a lot of nose and plastic door has always rattled.

The W4800 is just flat out big. A set of king size cotton flannel sheets/cases barely would fit in the Bosch. The W4800 is about 1/2 full. The machine, to me looks very high quality and I like the clean simple style of W/D pair.

The claim of up to 4x less wear seems to be true. Some laundry just does not lint. To my surprise, one load was so lint free I only noticed my cat's hair on dryer filter.

The wash cycle is almost silent. You just hear clothes slapping around. On HS spin, the motor noise is very quite. No jet airplane noise like Bosch. But the machine has been quite a task to keep the vibration/noise down. I added a 1 1/2 plywood floor and still get some vibration on 2nd floor installation. YMMV, but just is a big, spinning drum that generates a lot of g forces. The spin balancing cycles attempts to balance seem less aggressive then the smaller Bosch. It seems to try for a while and then just goes for it. dI had seen the Bosch try for mintues to balnace a difficutl load. However, it never has walked, just machine and floor vibration so far that you can feel in next room. I suspect all big machines on 2nd floor are difficult.

On water use, the machine is frugal almost to a fault. I have soft water. Using Tide HE 2x with the cap bottom barely covered with liquid, it is too much detergent for most loads. Any more and the machine filled with suds. You can not see the water in drum even on rinses using Normal cycle. Even on Delicates cycle, it barely reaches the lip of the steel drum. Using the sensitive options does not seem to increase water level, but only adds a rinse cycle. BTW, Normal cycle with sensitive seems to be 3 rinses. It might add more for large load, just not sure yet. Older Bosch was alwys 4 ( with extra rinse) and the water level was up to about 1/3 of glass window. I would prefer more water in rinses. The Bosch beats the Miele here, if water usage is not your concern vs clean rinse.

Wash cycles seems to clean slightly better than Bosch. The extended wash option seems to add about 30 minuets to most cycles.

The led drum light is very nice and useful. And as claimed, most clothes don't stick to top of drum after HS spin.

Some times the 'pause' function does not open the door during wash cycle. Still not sure why this is true for some cycles and not others. Minor irritation.

The only time you can use sanitize temp is with Sanitize cycle or Custom cycle. The Sanitize cycle forces a pre-wash, which I don't like. But can use Custom, if needed. Not sure if my water is really getting to 158F. Based on drain temp, it seems more like 150 or so. ...

Comments (150)

  • crooks101
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    Off Topic:

    "Anyone else find it humorous the OP's username is CROOKs101?" LOL

    Actually real name is Crooks. We claim the good connotations of the folks that live at the crook of the road. Just like the English name of Miller- the folks that ran the mill. However, if someone is giving me the benefit of the doubt and trying to spell my name with some more favorable spelling, I usually say just like the people that rob banks. They always gets it right quickly. The folks at the road technique spelling, I find does not work fast enough.

    When I was kid, my schoolyard humor (I give you the benefit of the doubt) stopped by the 5th grade, since it was no longer considered clever to make the bad association.

    Do a Google, their are several famous people with the name Crooks.

    One website almost would not give me a logon using the name Crooks101.

    I work for a big international computer company that runs most of the world's businesses (if that is not a clue, give up) and there are 17 legal Crooks' in the company worldwide.

    My customers have ranged from American Express to Wal-Mart, not once has anyone even said anything or commented on my last name. I get full access to their building. Most time with unescorted privileged. Sometimes I will, as a ice breaker, say something. Usual response, is "oh" or small laugh. Usually very small.

    I had a DOD Secret clearance until I took an IT Architect role with commercial account. Computer security is one of my speciality skill areas. The US Government seemed to be ok with giving Crooks access to their secret site including NORAD mountain complex.

    My ex-wife would not take it as her last name, but my daughter regrets someday she will give it up for her husband's name. And she worked as a lawyer for JD's in the teen court. None of her clients has a problem being represented by crooks.

  • crooks101
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    Flyingkite,

    Oh my gosh, my latch is different and another change. Looks like they put a movable part (mine is solid) where the door hit. Guess I should call and schedule a service call before they pick it up. LOL Without the forum, we would not know of these issues.

    This just proves this machine has a lot of teething problems. I am sure over time they will get it worked out or a new model name, if this one gets a bad reputation.

    But what else is lurking in it. The latch is not a firmware issue nor was the dryer filter modification.

    But to Miele, I am the "bad" guy- not them or the machine. The old attempt to shoot the messengers.

    Miele's theme song could be "don't bring me any bad news."

    I guess a good test would be to call and say I wanted the latch fixed and see what they say/do. Might be interesting. Any bets? LOL

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  • flyingkite
    16 years ago

    crooks101,

    DonÂt go with your war against Miele too far. I had a chance to look inside the washer when technician installed new lock. ItÂs still a very good German engineering. All parts, connectors, hoses, switches etc. were made from the quality materials, well assembled, apparently with repairability & durability in mind, so itÂs still a technical marvel, just a new one.

    By the way, the new lock unit actually implements an old fashion latch with the rolling pin used in the old refrigerators.

    P.S. I also used to have DOD clearance, but it was issued by a different organization.

  • jerrod6
    16 years ago

    Crooks
    I thought your name was interesting but I never question names because you never know when it is the actual name of a person...who are we to question that? Brings back childhood memories some of which should be forgotten.

    I am in IT also and because of that I guess, one of my "rules" is never buy version 1 of anything where critical operation may be invovled, software, hardware..whatever. Since you are in IT I am sure you know why I think like this. So I did by the new dryer because I don't find it's performance critical to me.

    I was reading about your door. The door latch on my older Euro Miele is different. It is operated by an electric button or something, so that when you push the button it pops open with a loud clunk. That is different but sometimes it will not open or open right away either.

    Seems like the door will not open when the water level is above the bottom of the door. During the rinses the water is up over the door bottom and up the glass and the door will absolutly not open.

    During the wash if the water temperature gets over 120F the door will not open.

    Immediately at the end of a cycle the door will not open. If you try to open it the door lock light will come on, so you wait a few seconds until the internal lock gets released. So perhaps some things about your the door operation on your machine is like the older Mieles.

    One thing I did that sounds nutty but. well I am a nut sometimes so here is what I did:

    The W1215 washers were released without a separate rinse/spin cycle. People complained about this alot and although my model has this feature I went to the USA Miele web site and typed a message about this. They could not seem to understand why this was important. Next I went to the German web site and typed a message(in English, Germans can read English) and stated that for the price of the machine We in the USA expect to have a machine that will offer a separate rinse/spin like the older Miele machines did and like other models offered to the USA market.

    I never received a response and I never expected one, but I see that the rinse/spin has been re-introducted on this new model...so what I am saying is perhaps if you do not get satisfacton from the U.S.A Miele section....go to the REAL top and start equating your problems to their lost of revenue in the U.S.A. Phones work between germany and the USA so maybe there will be some internal Miele phone calls :)

    Nothing happens here in the U.S.A. The design, the build..., all takes place other places so why not go right to the source?

    In the past Miele was offering a total refund of money when folks were not satisfied, so you could go for that...BUT...I was thinking that if the performance is not that bad maybe you can try the PC update route? According to Miele their products are supposed to be able to be updated. They may have to come out with version 1.2 or 1.5 or something that includes the changes required...

  • crooks101
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    Yes, I called in the repair for the latch. No call back yet from dispatcher. Perhaps, if it can be fixed, it might redeem it.

    It really get on your nerve to have the door hitting the frame of an expensive machine.

  • crooks101
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    "I am in IT also and because of that I guess, one of my "rules" is never buy version 1 of anything where critical operation may be involved, software, hardware..whatever. Since you are in IT I am sure you know why I think like this. "

    Yes, shame on me. I bought a new Nikon D200 about two years ago. It had major banding problems, but Nikon support was superb. One should learn. Got caught up in the marketing hype of Miele, I guess. My machine broke and needed one. Figured they had 100 years of figuring out how to turn on a heater. LOL

    And a washer is not really that complex. I work on much more complex mainframe computer systems that run thousands of users/processes at a time. If they would listen to me, I would design a killer machine. Cost of new features/options would be almost nothing.

    And they dryer modification, you would think they could do a dryer right the first time.

    I worked at a lot of companies, something is broken at Miele right now. I have seen it before. Heck, even IBM almost went out of business in the 90's. I know I was there and tried to tell them too. They just said they were the most successful company- get lost. Then the dam broke and cut 50% of staff.

  • jerrod6
    16 years ago

    Umm....yes.. I know a washer is not as complex as a mainframe computer system that runs thousands of users at a time. The computer application I work with has global users logged on online, is receiving and processing EDI and message Q transactions, is receiving real time inventory adjustments from global manufacturing plants, is updating the database, is generating printed reports, and it is running batch invoicing... all at the same time( Of course it is really the mainframe that is running ALL of THIS, plus everything ELSE) so I know what you mean...but I was comparing a dryer to a washer...A dryer turns the drum, blows some heated air..so what. A washer actually has to clean clothes, dispense detergent,use the correct temperature, rinse the clothes, dispense FS, spin the clothes and try not to leave everything a tangled mess.... so that is what I meant :)

  • crooks101
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    An update on problem resolution. Got a call today from the Miele SW service manger again. It was more civil this time, but still just don't communicate. They want to refund money and terminated without trying to fix machine. They just think it washes fine and I am a trouble maker. They seemed quite offended I think it has problems.

    Bottom line: They think I am impossible to satisfy- possible crazy or a nut. I just can not get them to see the problem. I would say in deep denial or worst. So we both move on. If they refund total cost of washer/dryer, shipping, tax and 5yr Miele warranty $3253.388. I will just let them pick-up the machines. That is what they want to do now. However, if not total refund, I am afraid it might get ugly. I will stand for my rights on this one. For some reason, based on today's phone call, I think even refund is going to be an issue for total refund. He seems to imply I would not get sales tax and did not know about the Miele $200 warranty. We will see.

    Frankly, a little surprised they will not fix or even acknowledge problem and just shut me down. Wimps. They said no one else had complained and would not do anything based on my one complaint. Why they just don't take a temp reading and find out themselves is just silly. Am I the only person that cares a $1800 machine does not use it build-in heater? Regardless, he said a firmware update was not likely from Germany and implied it could take a long time anyway. Of course, since nothing is wrong to them an non-issue anyway.

    He went again down the same silly argument again 'does the washer clean your clothes with cold water?" Completely bypassing the issue - the heater does not heat the water. Of course, I countered why put a heater in high-end machine and charge me for it, if it is not needed. No counter.

    jerrod6,

    I agree. A washer is at least an order of magnitude more complex than a dryer. But relative to other systems, I think it relativity simple.

    Looser,

    I am not sure what washer I will buy. I am open from the low-end Affinity to the Duet/Samsung VRT at high-end. LG works fine, but don't want any more service issues. Samsung VRT might solve the vibration problem with better technology than just the Miele's weight solution. Duet, if I can get good sale around $1000, it might just be a safe bet and have $600 in pocket. And, I doubt I will spend much more than $600-700 for a dryer. So about 1/2 the price of the Miele. At this point, I just don't care if W/D match.

  • crooks101
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    Flyingkite,

    "There is nothing wrong with putting some extra water before final spin, it's a feature!"

    I was not referring to the rinse before final spin in wash cycle. Adding some water here would be clever. If the machine has a separate rinse/spin cycle, adding some water would be a nice touch too. After all, you asked for a rinse not a spin dry. Water is good. But on the drain/spin, one would assume you want to spin dry only or you would have used the rinse/spin. Water is bad.

    For example, the W48xx frequently gets out of balance and does not give you a high speed spin, so your want to try again. Adding water when you want to to dry better is just three steps forward while losing two, IMO.

    Perhaps, it is very good I am giving up on this machine. I think some things are very smart. Like the two wash/rinse cycles on pre-wash. With the low water level used, if you are asking for a pre-wash, it is a good assumption you want to well, pre-wash. Other things just seem off and illogical. Do I need say like not using heater on Normal cycle?

    But per Miele, I can't be satisfied or perhaps crazy. I might just join the other crazies manufactures like Bosch that uses the darn heater intelligently. Too bad the build quality is so low. The very reason I spend the cold, hard cash extra on the Miele. I thought I was getting the Bosch heater design on all cycles with a better build. Got neither to my satisfaction.

  • sshrivastava
    16 years ago

    Crooks,

    After reading through this thread again, I am so glad you finally got resolution. If they refund your money, they should refund ALL of it -- that's only fair. The refund should be processed by your dealer so that you can get a refund on sales tax as well.

    I have a suspicion that Miele is very well aware of the problems but just isn't admitting to anything -- this is very typical corporate behavior. If they admit it to you, then it spreads over the internet that the software is defective. Why bother when the majority of folks don't have an issue with it or even noticed? I'm not condoning their behavior, but it makes sense on their part to limit their admissions for liability reasons.

    I am confident that they will release a firmware upgrade to address these issues -- everything that you've experienced, except the latch issue, is software related and easily fixed. Companies have gotten extremely lax about releasing "beta" products as final, and I think consumers such as yourself should stand up and vote with your dollars. If a product doesn't work as advertised out the gate, then take it back.

  • joe_in_philly
    16 years ago

    Crooks,

    Adding the water before a spin cycle is a safely feature. My Kenmore FL washer does it, too. It is supposed to scare any kids that may be playing in the washer.

    All cycles on my washer, including the spin only cycle, go thought the safety routine at the start of the cycle. It starts with the door locking, squirting in a little water, and then the door unlocking for a few seconds. If the door opens or it senses the drum moving, it won't start the cycle.

    I don't think this is an issue with small capacity front loading washing machines as it is more difficult for a kid to fit inside, but a child could easily fit inside a large capacity front loader.

    If you don't want water added before a spin, just turn of the tap. I have a simple lever that turns the water to the washer on and off with just 1/4 of a turn, so it is easy for me to turn the water off, wait for the initial water burst to finish, and then turn the water back on.

    Joe

    P.S. The water heater does not come on at all on the normal cycle of my washer, unless I use the stain treat feature. The stain treat feature causes the washer to fill with warm water and then the heater heat the water to hot over an extended wash period. I understood the reason why the heater did not come on during the normal cycle is because the normal cycle is used to rate energy use, and a washer with a heater would end up being less efficient than a heater-less washer.

    The Bosch uses the heater on its normal cycle, but its target water temps are lower than the Kenmore. A Bosch warm wash is 95F v. 104F on the Kenmore. Bosch cold is 60F, while it is 77F on the Kenmore. The Kenmore also has the option of using Tap cold.

    Joe

  • crooks101
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    joe_in_philly, Flyingkite,

    I knew you guys (ladies) would turn this water in rinse/spin cycle into a feature, somehow. LOL But I never did call Miele on this nor the latch. That was the lack of perfection I was willing to accept. (Flykite, the reason I pushed back somewhat on you, sorry, if I came on too strong.) But I stood firm on the heater, since they claimed it should work. And if I could have found an acceptable workaround, I would have accepted it also. Unfortunate, we hit what the IT folks call a deadly embrace situation. I could not get what I wanted. One has to crash. And their are lot of other very good options like the Whirlpool/Kenmore, lG and Samsung in marketplace. Most are considerably cheaper too.

    Joe,

    Your machine, on the stain option seems like what is called a profile wash. Does it work on all cycles and is the temp raised using the heater to the set temp - like hot. If yes, this is what I had on old Bosch and used it about 90% of the time (assuming I did not need a quick wash). Using this I never did pretreat anything.

    I saw it today on the Kenmore but not Whirlpool machines. They seem like nice machines really made in Germany (eat that Miele). Only really concern is water level in rinse cycles and lack of drain pump door.

  • crooks101
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    sshrivastava,

    Yes, it is mostly a firmware issue. Exactly what I told the service manager yesterday. They have a nice machine that could be fixed with some unsatisfactory HW/firmware teething issue for this class of washer/dryer. They seem to have many firmware issues including the odd door locked/blocked behavior. Usually, the easy stuff to fix and quickly.

    But Miele first has to accept they have a problem or back off their claims. Simply as that. I would have accepted either at one time- not now however. Just claiming to work (when it did not) and not willing to fix is bizarre. Time to move on and get your money back.

    On refund, I will only accept full refund or they will have to fix machine or live with me for another 5 years on my extended warranty with them. Simple as that. At this point, I don't think they want that anymore than I do. But the ball is in their court, since they chose not to fix and insist I return machines with refund. However, service mgr did not commit to full refund saying he would have to check. But if they think I am going to be forced to return machine without full refund. Dream on! And later trying to get it fixed (and other issues) will probably lead to AA action unfortunately.

    On firmware, since they gave me access to service program interface on W4840 while trying to get the heater to work, it appears to be a general firmware for several machines. It even asks if machine if FL or TL. LOL. Does not seem specific to me. I suspect this is part of their problem. They made some changes for NA/EPA2007and did not check out all the ramification. I could go into more details, but lot of options seem to have no meaning or action. The ones they gave me to try did nothing. They appeared to me to be just guessing, since it did not turn heater on.

  • joe_in_philly
    16 years ago

    Crooks,

    The stain treat option is similar to a profile wash, though the machine starts with warm water, not cold. With that being said, it has gotten out all sorts of stains, including blood and chocolate, stains that usually are supposed to be pre-washed in cold. I can trick it to start with cold water by starting a cold cycle, and as soon as the wash fill finishes, turn on the stain treat option.

    I have the original HE3t, the predecessor to the HE4t and now current HE5t. It is over 4 years old and working as well as when I got it. The newer machines have some new cycles, but on my machine the stain treat is available on the Normal, Heavy Duty, Whitest Whites, and Sanitary cycles. The water is heated to the hot setting for the particular cycle, which is about:

    122F Normal
    127F Whitest Whites and Heavy Duty
    153F Sanitary

    The stain treat option is only found on some Kenmore models, though some whirlpool duets have it built into the heavy duty cycle. I assume the Maytag epic, also based on the Duet, probably has it built into the heavy duty cycle as well.

    Joe

  • crooks101
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    Joe, the HEt5 machine is looking like a strong possibility along with the LG/Samsung. I think the Bosch FL is the only large FL NA machine that has it now. I found a dryer at Sears today and put it on hold pending washer selection. Hoping for a better bundled price with their sales options, if I go Kenmore/LG/Maytag or Whirlpool. They don't care Samsung.

    Since Sears delivers on weekend, I might have the Miele's out in the hallway before they can even schedule a pickup. I might be on the road for the next couple of weeks. And out of town next all week with already scheduled trip. Miele last time would not do anything on weekends.

    Do you know the temp of the initial fill of warm on Stain treat cycle? On Miele with heater cycles it was around 104F, but I think I could live with a reasonable warm temp start or switch if know I have a stain that needs it. Even if the heater worked on the Normal cycles like the other W48xx cycles, I would have had to do this to emulate profile wash, since the ATC tries to mix H/C water in its usual feeble attempt to adjust without heater. Just the nature of ATC with cold water and low initial fill of FLs.- really a TL mechanism, IMHO.

    In Colorado, the winter water is 40/50sF. Even in April it was only 50+F. A cold is really cold here most of the year. BTW, one of the reasons for the need of heater on Miele's Normal. Since it is not winter now, I don't know is the w48XX with my water heater would ever get a hot wash. In summer, normal with hot was only about 100F-110F depending on load -i.e. large load gave it more of a chance to load hot water. Of course, the normal cycle without a heater never could do a profile wash, since if you filled with cold, that is what you get even if you change to hot later - because of no heater engagement. I know, I tried it already. No go. The Normal cycles without heater for me is almost useless. But as noted, the Miele Custom cycle fallback with heater, did not honor the request for extra water in rinse. It could be just a simple FW fix. However for me, a real sore point- either no heater and rinse well or heater and poor rinse. Yuck! Trade-offs, I don't think I will find on my other choices. Whirlpool Stain treat cycle seems to hit it out of the ballpark for me. Nice feature.

  • sshrivastava
    16 years ago

    Crooks, is there some reason you can't use the Normal cycle and just turn on the stain treat option to enable the heater? According to Joe this is possible, and solves your heater issue. If you want to start with cold water and have a true profile wash, just connect cold to both incoming lines on the machine and you have cold in every cycle being heated to the appropriate temp.

  • looser
    16 years ago

    Crooks101,
    I don't think that Miele is too concerned about the fact that Whirlpool makes washers in Germany. Quality wise, they are not in the same league. I know you are very upset about the software problems, but the build quality of the Miele is really better than most other brands. In the German consumer report testings, Miele is the top rated washer most of the time followed by AEG and then Siemens/Bosch. Bauknecht (Whirlpool) washers are not bad, but they are not the best performing washers by far.

    I hope you'll be happy with your next machine no matter which one you pick. I am surprised that you consider getting it from Sears after all the negative experiences that have been posted here lately. I will not buy from Sears (they don't carry Bosch anyway), I'd consider Lowes or local appliance stores. They can offer you good deals as well.
    Good luck!

  • dnlblank
    16 years ago

    I've been away from the Laundry Forum for a while and just dropped in to see what's new with the Miele machines. It's taken a while to read through all this, but it's been very informative. I hope my Miele 1986 continues plugging away so I'm not faced with the difficult decision of whether or not to replace it with a W4840!

    Crooks101, I'm so disappointed to read of all you've been through since April. Thank you for posting all this info. Those who do their research before buying will have food for thought, for sure. I hope you find a machine that meets your needs.

    sshrivastava, your post yesterday about companies releasing beta products as final struck home with me! You are so right about this. I'm a software engineer for a small company that delivers our product to a very large customer who then passes it along to their own customers. That very large customer is placing demands on us to deliver faster and faster, which leaves too little time for testing before it goes out the door. We do the best we can, but the folks at that very large company don't care if we miss some stuff. They pass it on to their own customers, knowing there may be problems. They figure we can always fix it but that it's better to get it out fast! There's a movement across the software industry to do this. Let's hope the movement hasn't hit Miele.

  • crooks101
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    sshrivastava,

    "is there some reason you can't use the Normal cycle and just turn on the stain treat option to enable the heater?"

    If it had one, I might try. :-) Seems to be a Kenmore, possible Bosch thing. LG has stain, but per manual it just adds wash time.

    Looser,

    "I know you are very upset about the software problems.."

    Sigh... Actually more of upset by the Miele support run around. In a nutshell, they say heater should work for three months, but will not fix it. Keep saying they are working on it, will call back. Last 15 days, never get any calls back, but they claimed twice they would. I call again asking for supervisors, never get any contact or call backs.

    Miele has claims it should work for over three months. No resolution. I escalate- strongly including treat of AA action. Get response. Now it has morphed to me being the bad guy that can be satisfied. I just want out of this nightmare. If they do what they claimed Friday, I will get my money back. Done. Thank GOD.

    Sorry, I know some folks don't care about heaters. Someone always loves their machines no matter what the build quality/brand and there is always someone that hates or loves any brand at one one time. I just suggest one look at the forum entries and make their own decision based on their own needs/requirements/expectations.

    Nothing more or nothing less.

    Regarding Sears. Still just an option, but with the dryer machine I found yesterday (SS Drum, light, more controls that Miele T9800 and bigger) it is almost a no brainier. Fraction of cost. On Washer, I think I will be able to find something that meets my needs better than W4800. My needs- YMMV. At the end of the day, I get out of this Miele support quagmire, meets my needs better and total cost will be less than half of the Miele W/D pair. For 1/2 less, I can accept a lot of build quality differences and get the heater functions I want. Sweet! A big sigh of relief. I am glad this is about over.

    BTW, I think it gets lost in all the post, but Miele gave me a new machine (upgrade to W4840) because the heater did not work and other problems on W4800. Must have been something wrong or just playing games with me. But the new W4840's heater did not work either. Key point- its heater DID NOT WORK either and some of the same FW issues along with door latch. They seemed to think, since I got the new machine upgraded machine, I should just go away and play with my nice, new W4840 in a coroner and be quite.

    Sorry Miele, it is still broken per you own support staff even up to this week. That was the key recording I got.

    But I don't want to really keep posting about this foever. Pending money/machine exchange it is about over.

    Miele, just give my full money back as you said YOU wanted to do. We both move on. Glad others like/love their Miele machines. It is a free country and we all all different needs/expectations and we all vote with our pocket book....

  • crooks101
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    Just to be clear. Probably obvious, but "Now it has morphed to me being the bad guy that CAN NOT be satisfied."

    Must be a Freudian slip thinking I can be if ones tries. LOL

  • gordonr
    16 years ago

    crooks101,

    I certainly hope you get the resolution you seeks, but at the same time I'm sorry to hear your tale of woe ending minus a Miele product fix. If Miele is watching this board, you should know that both your customer disservice and lack of heater working in normal cycle will affect future sales. Personally I also want Miele quality but our winter colds are around 40F so a working heater is important to me as well. We might see if Miele can get this fixed within 6 months or so before buying, or move onto another brand.

    Crooks101, I see you exploring the other ones out there including the Samsung. I really like the concept of their VRT balancing but if a heater working in normal is a must-have feature, the Samsung won't meet your needs. I looked into this a while back and believe it only turns on in the Sanitary cycle. In the mega size FLers the only ones with a heater working in all/most cycles seem to be the Bosch Nexxt and atleast some of the LG machines. Bosch advertises this feature whereas LG doesn't. The confirmation of LG's doing it comes from looking at some of the LG service and training manuals available on-line. Of course Miele service manuals probably also say the heater works in all cycles so it's probably worth getting independent confirmation that LG machines do indeed have this feature. I also come from a tech background and sympathize with you that making this stuff work right should not be rocket science.

  • crooks101
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    gordonr,

    I don't think they know what market they are targeting. If they want to make it work like a Whirlpool, then one might buy the Whirlpool instead. Since I was going to several stores today, almost not one had even heard of Miele. The one store that did carry it, the salesperson had not sold one, said folks don't ask or glance at the price and go to Whirlpool or LG. He personally thinks like me they will eventually get it figured out. But not for some time.

    The W4840 on the floor had no power, W/D where both German made (mine are CR) and had none of the current modifications for dryer vent or washer door. As you would suspect. Just so happens, the same store that gave me the great price on HE5T with free shipping. Their sales discounts don't apply to Miele or Bosch nor do they offer free shipping on Miele. I actually preferred to buy from this store back in April, but got a quote around $400 for deliver charges because of stairs. But same store will delivered HE5t free. But with deliver charges and price difference, it would cost over $1100 more just for the washer. One would have to really want it. I actually think the dryer is reasonably priced compared to the high-end LG, Samsung, Whirpoo dryers. And the the reason, I am looking at S/D stuff. One just does not need a high-end dryer with a high speed FL.

    For the record: I have NEVER posted the Miele's are a POS. They are in fact, to me, beautiful machines, just look at Flyingkite pictures. I am sad to see them go, but, at the same time, glad to move on. Heck, I might even take a picture of them for the album.

    And really surprised how quickly, I have found replacement alternatives and at good prices. I did spend a bunch of hours last night going through all the LG, Samsung, Whirlpool, Sears sites, online manuals, and this forum.

  • crooks101
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    off topic, I think.

    dnlblank, I used to be a programmer/developer from start ups to Fortune 10 companies for about 10 years. Right now I report to SW side technical sales of the company (but have both SW/HW technical responsibilities in a new role). Just so happens I took it about a month before buying the Miele's.

    What I have noticed in the IT industry, if that almost no customer will buy anymore without demanding a POC or trial. I think the rush to market has backfired in quick sales. And I think it is just not IT. I really have a hard time believing anyone besides the engineer really used the new Miele's for a time. Just my guess, it this ever get to the higher level exec in the company, some heads will be sore.

  • joe_in_philly
    16 years ago

    Crooks,

    The ATC target temp for warm is 104F.

    In the winter, my cold water can be around 38F. If the washer is cold (from a previously run load with a cold rinse), and the load is small, the target warm temp may not be reached on a warm, normal cycle. If that is a concern, I either use the whitest whites cycle (set to warm wash) which utilizes the heater, select a hot wash, or select a warm rinse for the previous cycle.

    In the winter I will use the warm rinse occasionally because it seems like very cold water does not rinse as well was warmer water.

    Joe

  • crooks101
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    Joe, thanks.

    I got a chance today to play again with a working HE5t in the same chain as I bought the HE5t (holding on delivery pending pickup of Miele W/D set and also final decision). The store was in Phoenix. Here the cold is warm to me. But I did checkout the stain cycle. Unfortunately, it does always heat to Hot, just like the manual said. It also works on the Normal setting. The Skincare setting seemed to add 4 rinses. No water level increase on rinse- disappointing. However, it seemed to HS spin longer on rinse cycles. I think this helps to remove even more suds. The whole rinse cycles with it was a whopping 47min per readout. It seemed about 4x11mins per rinse cycles with about a 3 minute end of cycle tumble. Nice touch. Miele just stopped. Sometimes clothes stuck on top even with honeycomb drum. To me with soft water, this long rinse time is good- not bad. YMMV.

    Also, I liked the way the HE5t tried to balance the clothes. It worked really hard like my old Bosch. It keeps trying and the timer stops running while it working. On the Miele W48xx, it just plowed to the end. If it could not spin well, it just dropped the speed and always ran the same time. Heck, even it timer ran while on pause- seemed odd. For me, not what I wanted. When I wash, I want it done right- not fast. For the fast and quick folks, I guess they would love the Miele.

    Suspension on pedestal seemed to work well. Its max RPM is 1300. Very close the the Miele W4840/W4800.

    Overall, I get a good feeling about this machine. I get the feeling it has been refined over the year to work well.

    Also, while at store, they had a LG steam connected to water. Played with a little too. It has very good rinse water levels. Much better then Kenmore HE5t. I thought I heard some strange noises on it. Suspension did not seem quite in the same league as Kenmore. Overall like the control flexibility of the Kenmore any My CYCLE setting. Nice touch. Miele W48xx remember always the last setting, but not quite the same as the Kenmore. But close enough. The LG always resets back to default. PIA.

  • crooks101
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    Miele came today to pick-up W/D today. The same Miele service tech guy was here at time of freeeW4840 upgrade delivery and, at that time about 2 moths ago, acknowledge heater was not working.

    So I asked him the latest status. He said he had just gotten feedback the heater would not work on Normal not any plans to do so. Did not know about the other FW issues of increased water levels by FW option only working on certain cycles. He had heard about the sagging doors and the fix out for that.

    Just said they don't give him a machine to ever see in operation. I guess he has only manuals/training.

    The other pickup guy was from the Denver distributor of Miele, he said he was buying the machines, but would not give details. But he loaded it in his pickup, not Miele van. And put it on its side. Did think you could do that , oh well, not mine as soon as I get check. That is still pending.

  • housekeeping
    16 years ago

    Do I understand correctly that according to one of the guys that picked up your machine that the new Miele models simply do not provide machine-heated water during the Normal cycle? And this despite repeated reassurances from Miele C/S that it did so?

    So this expensive machine, at least in the Normal cycle, runs only on whatever temp your water heater offers (minus any loss in transit, or due to room or machine temp, and of course, it loses temp as the cycle proceeds)?

    Does anyone know if the same physical model exists outside of the US? And if so, is this the same on the non-US models? Perhaps this machine was created especially for the US market and only exists here.

    What boggles me is the insistence of Meile that it did, in fact, call for the heater when it apparently doesn't. What corporate purpose would be served by refusing to acknowledge this? Or are the C/S people completely clueless? Don't they have one of these machines set-up in one of their operational showrooms where they could check this out? They used to have machines on the premises where their telephone C/S workers worked. Once or twice they have mentioned to me that they bring their laundry to work and so have personal experience with the machines. I always thought that was an extremely smart thing to do.

    I don't blame you for running out of patience and rejecting the machines without a heater on normal. I would certainly have done so as well, since having a beefy on-board heater is critically important for me. Thank goodness my older Mieles and my Asko are still working like troupers. I pray they last long enough for Miele to come to its senses.

    So, for the second model change in a row, Miele strikes out. What are they thinking to take the premier European brand and trash its reputation for being the best washers on Earth? Their vaunted physical quality becomes meaningless if they do a less-than outstanding job of washing; they risk just becoming the snob-name in appliances. Lucrative niche, but extremely vulnerable when enough consumers finally get it.

    Molly~

  • crooks101
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    housekeeping,

    Gosh, you actually get my frustrations with Miele. Yes, even up to the last, they claimed it would engage heater on all cycles. I asked for my machine to be fix. I got delayed with all kinds of supposedly internal inquires to check out including "we need to check with engineering." This went on for months.

    Just for the record, since some forum folks still don't get it the Normal cycle is not equal to the Custom cycle with heater due to some FW flaws, IMHO. Otherwise, I wold have just gone with it Custom. Now on the HE5t, the WW is actually very close to the Normal cycle but with heater. So it is working fine. Also, Stain Treat with heater works on Normal on HE5t. So bottom line. HE5t does what the Miele could have done and the Miele does not even have a profile wash option. Again, a very common European washing machine function missing on the high-end Miele W48xx series.

    It got to the point, I was going to stop this merry-go-round of delays somehow, since the C/S tech line answer always was it should work, but no one was coming out to fix or calling to even talk about it.

    So finally I asked for permission to record the phone call, I was having with a C/S again. I asked him to state his name, location and qualifications/training to discuss machine. He claimed he was qualified. I then ask him how the machine should work on Normal. He said the usual heater nonsense of working, blah, blah. I stated clearly mine did work as stated and and I needed to schedule a service call.

    He balked, stating that if the machine was not broken I would have to pay for service call. I stated it was based on his own description. So I asked how they would perform test onsite to determine heater function working or not. He balked again. I again stated I had no doubt heater was not working, so please state test and if I agree to test, I will accept full charges for your unnecessary service call. I told him I was that confident. He balked again. At this point, I just gave up realizing they would never admit or fix, and just stated they should expect AA action and I was fully prepared to pursue for remedy and had no doubt I would prevail. I demanded they either give my money back, fix or face serous AA action. It was that simple, ball in their court- perhaps literally.

    Next day, I got the offer (actually demand) I return the machines. They were quite mad. So be it. That was about a month ago.

    I now have a HE5t, I am very impressed so far regardless of price. When you factor the approx 1/2 street price, even more so. To me the Miele W48xx is no better than a Frigidaire Affinity in function.

    I agree, you can look at the non-USA Miele sites and realize we are really getting seriously reduced function machines. Best as I can tell the W48xx in only a NA machine. In the past, they seemed to make serious washing machines. Not it seem all flash marketing. I don't think I will miss them at all.

  • kawfeeaddict
    16 years ago

    Molly articulated:

    "So, for the second model change in a row, Miele strikes out. What are they thinking to take the premier European brand and trash its reputation for being the best washers on Earth? Their vaunted physical quality becomes meaningless if they do a less-than outstanding job of washing; they risk just becoming the snob-name in appliances. Lucrative niche, but extremely vulnerable when enough consumers finally get it."

    Well put! I drove Mercedes-Benz for decades however this spring traded in my last one for another German brand. Mercedes is working hard to get their reputation for quality back. I hope Miele learns from MB's mistakes before it's too late. In the meantime, I'm loving my W1986, everyday.

  • gordonr
    16 years ago

    Hasn't there been talk that their next generation 5.5kg machine for the US market is also going 120V? If true it will no doubt lead to a machine less geared toward the laundry expert than the existing model.

    Crooks101,

    Just curious on some more of your HE5t experiences... The manual terms both WW and Heavy Duty as having a more aggressive agitation than normal cycle. Have you observed this? Interesting that you find WW most similar to Normal. My understanding is that WW is the dedicated "bleach" cycle. Maybe in reality WW is really normal with that one modification (if you choose to add it). In cycles where the heater is being used, do you notice if the HE5t is trying to maintain the temp through the wash cycle or is it raising it to that level and then letting it cool off?

  • jerrod6
    16 years ago

    I am the one that said that the sales rep implied that the next smaller machines sold in the U.S.A would only be 5K and use 120V. Not 6K only 5K. He implied this so this cannot be taken as the absolute truth.

    As far as I know The 4xxx version is made only for the U.S.A and not intended for other countries. Most washers sold here don't use the heater for normal so I guess Miele is following that however their folks that write the user manual didn't catch that or they decided to not use the heater after the manual went to press.

    For me I don't want a machine made just for the U.S.A I want one that works the same for everyone. Miele's other machines made for the rest of the world heat the water and are serious. Their machine made for U.S.A reflects their presumption that the general population here will use LCB to whiten so higher temps are not exactly necessary. They must have thought something like this otherwise why is there a LCB dispenser on this machine? It's not on mine. Are they correct? Are we going to use LCB to clean and whiten and kill everything in sight? If so maybe we don't need so much heat. I also seem to remember reading that this washer beats the 2008 Energy standards. Not sure about that but if that's the case perhaps this is what we will be faced with in all brands in 2008.

    Anyway I am sticking with my older 6K 220V Euro designed Miele washing machine that will heat quickly to almost 200 and give high level rinses if I ask it to.

  • crooks101
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    gordonr,

    I will post the HE5t observations under one of the HE5t post- later. But will say I have experienced nothing so far that concerns me and some pleasantly surprises, like the heater working on Kids cycle too and the load adjusting cycles of time/rinse- or so it seems. The Miele W48xx did not seem to do it or I never noticed if over the months I had it and was always a nagging concerns of rinse levels. And it is nice if a owner's manual screws up, the washer has more features rather than less.

    Jerrod6,

    Look at the Canadian Miele site. It shows also the W48xx and T9800 dryer. They even give the dryer drum capacity as 6.4 CF, relatively small compared to competition for 4 CF IEC drums. BTW, this was something even Miele tech line could not answer.

    I dont have too much of a problem with 110v washer with heater, since the lower wash water volumes just don't take a lot of time to heat compared to older machines. Just think of your drip coffee maker- most heat very hot and only have 900-1000 watts heaters. So 220v would be nice, but is I was the designed for NA, I would go with 110v too.

    On LCB, the older Bosch said not to use as did most Miele's in the past. On the W48xx (and HE5t) suddenly it is ok. Frankly, I was not planning to use LCB, if I had kept the W4480 nor my HE5t. I suspect it reduces the life of SS drum, pumps, and seals- to some degree. Nasty stuff and almost not clothes label's recommend its use.

  • wonderbreadgirl
    16 years ago

    good morning. i am interested in purchasing the new miele 4840 washer with matching dryer. i have a few questions if you dont mind answering them for me. first does the washer vibrate while on high spin? i am placing this in my garage in the optional stand that makes the machine higher. the stand would be sitting on a cement floor second is there much odor or mildow if you keep the door closed?? i would also like to hear all your negative comments on the machine. thanks for you help. lin

  • looser
    16 years ago

    The door of a FL should not be closed before you give the inside of the washer a chance to dry out. It is just common sense not to keep moisture in an area with an air tight seal. You will get a mildew problem if you do that and it doesn't matter what kind of FL you use. The door doesn't have to be wide open, you can put a towel or rag where the latch of the door is to keep it slightly cracked open.
    There are some people who prefer running a "clean washer cycle" with Cascade or specialty products once a week instead of leaving the door open. I think it is a very bad idea to do that. You wouldn't let mold grow on your dishes, in your coffee maker, or even in your shower and then just clean it once a week, would you?

  • amigo
    16 years ago

    Wow, this site was a real eye opener for someone searching the web for reviews on the Miele W4840.

    Thank you Crooks101 and everyone else for keeping these posts going, I have actually wasted a free Saturday afternoon reading this and a few others, and I donÂt get many free Saturday afternoons.

    (First of all Crooks101, after reading that you had an ex wife, it was difficult to image you as a man, for I had pictured a frustrated technical woman in my mind writing these messages at first. LOL, then the double shock that a man can actually have such a passion on how his washing machine works, when my husband doesnÂt even know how to use one after 26 years of marriage. How old are you? I hope I donÂt get a triple shock that you are as young as my kidsÂ.LOL, for then I will really feel cheated in life. LOL)

    Now concerning the Miele Customer Service over this issue, I am the most shocked!!!!!!!

    Here a customer paying full price on their machine discovers through their own trouble shooting that it doesnÂt measure up to the selling features that the company has created and advertised it for, and they donÂt even try to do anything to fix the problem? At one time people would be paid for their time to try and discover things on a product, so the company could fix the product to sell. For all your efforts you shouldnÂt have been treated with such disrespect, but thanked up and down for bringing a serious matter to their attention so it could be looked into, in hopes to correct it for NA market.

    Not just for past customers or for the new buyers like me, but for the companyÂs own satisfaction of bringing the best product that they can make to the public. What good is a heater if you canÂt turn it on or off depending if you want more heated water or not. And I agree with you I like a good water level, it should be an option no matter what washing feature you pick. Maybe extra rinse too.

    I live in Canada and I use cold water washes as the norm; with the exception on heavily soiled, bedding and socks with bad odors. So I would never have check if the heater was even working on the normal wash cycle. Even though I donÂt find it an issue, I still canÂt believe the companyÂs lack of knowing for sure how the heater worked during a certain cycle, and not caring if they could make it as it should be, to work on every cycle!

    For myself I loved the design of the w4840 machine once I saw it. I loved the fact that it was the only machine that had a top designed to go tight against the wall, with the hoses and electrical plugs having a space at the back that would tucked under. When I saw that, I thought everything else must be designed within the machine with the same great detail.
    I loved that they were the only FL washers with a right hand opening, (opposite of all the other sets) since my laundry plumbing is located to the right of washing machines, and would have to look at the possible costs to move the washer...

  • sshrivastava
    16 years ago

    Amigo,

    I suggest you contact a Miele customer relations manager with your concerns, and let them know of all the feedback you've been reading here on Gardenweb. Maybe if a potential customer points to negative feedback on an international appliance forum impacting his decision making process, Miele may take notice.

    Regarding the honeycomb drum design, I believe its purpose is to be gentler on clothing. I'm not sure that spinning more water out of the clothes was the design imperative with honeycomb.

    I haven't read through all the posts on this thread, so forgive the next question. Has anyone verified whether you can change the country localization for the machine via the technical service menu? On my Miele La Perla dishwasher, I can convert the unit's functionality to EU mode which changes how the cycles work, water quantity, and heater temperatures. Each geographic region has specific functionality requirements, so Miele builds one circuit board and handles localization through software. I would imagine the washing/dryer are the same way, it's simply a matter of finding the right service menu/setting.

    I agree that Miele's attempts at dumbing down the washer/dryer for the NA market are misguided. I can understand adding certain features for some markets, but why REMOVE features? I'm pretty sure you can flip it into EU mode, we just need someone to play with the service menu.

    Cheers!

  • amigo
    16 years ago

    WOW sshrivastava, that is a great question. If no one responds to find the answer to that question. Why don't you start a new thread with that question as the topic link. I would really like to know if there is a way to change the 4840 functionality mode to an EU option.

    I have about two months before I get my FL washer, as the garage is being built into art studio for husband, with small space for laundry. So I still have plenty of time to search, read and pick out my laundry machines.

    Right now I am waiting to see if anyone responds to my question on how well the new Whirlpool Duet Steam works. Since it is cheeper in price then the Miele 4840 set, and if it automatically receives good reviews, then I think I will be happy.

    Why pay more for a set that you love the looks of, if it works just the same as something less in price. And why bug Miele company, they didn't show the best customer service, or care that crooks101 was happy.

    I will know in time what to pick, as I always double check my purchase options before I completely decide.

    Thanks for the great idea, I did have an older Miele dishwasher in my last kitchen, but never discovered the circit board options like you did.

    As for the honey comb design, that is what the sales person said when we looked at it. He said the convex design in the washer was to help laundry sit more above the surface so that water could escape easier when being spun out, because Miele uses smaller holes. Both of these features give the fabric extra care. Other washing machines have larger holes and which will cause the clothing to be pulled through the holes during a spin cycle, thus the clothing will stick to the surface more.
    Then the concave honey comb design in the dryer, allows for air to move between the clothing and the dryer surface.

    It makes sense, yet clothing still stuck with the convex design, as crooks101 said, which I was surprised with, why pay more for a design if it doesn't work is what I am thinking because of that.

  • crooks101
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    Gosh, just saw this thread got active again. On EU service option to override NA setting, I tried several options on service panel to set to more non-NA like features, but could never find anything that worked.

    On question of "man", yes. Typical man most of my life. I did not care. Kind of surprised I care even now. Washed whites, colors, delicates- anything in one load. LOL. Guess, ex taught me that care of clothes does make a difference. But I just "reduced size" a new lands End wool sweater. So still got a lot to learn.

    I have had my Kenmore HE5t W/D pair now for months. Really like them. Washer just does not vibrate on HS spin. It has a profile wash and heats the water better than the Miele. Dryer is ok- wish drum was SS, but much quieter than Miele. I had one load that seemed to over dry for some reason. Not a big problem, but seemed off that day. Mostly out of sight, out of mind, as it should be.

    An one surprise, almost no lint on dryer screen for most loads. Sometime, just my cat's hair. Based on CR report of lack of gentleness, I was expecting more line than Miele- not less.

    I got the pair for less than 1/2 of Miele W/D pair. Don't regret at all returning the Miele W/D set. Life is Good without Miele or LG. :-)

  • jerrod6
    16 years ago

    I would be surpised if there was a EU setting on this machine.

    This machine was designed and made for the North American market not the EU or any other place...that's why there is a liquid chlorine bleach dispenser on it.

    If you use chlorine bleach there really isn't any need to sanitize or steam anything with high temperatures.

  • amigo
    16 years ago

    crooks101 - well now you sound like the usual man I am use to ...LOL

    Did you use cold water wash, delicate cycle on the Lands End wool sweater, then layed out on top of dryer? Only when it is almost dryed on top, then throw in a VERY short fluff cycle with dryer balls, this makes it less stiff. That is how I wash my wool sweaters in my TL washer and they are ok. (Plus I use an aloe vera natural cleaner, not a detergent on my wool fabric clothing.)

    I really like the sound of the little lint in the Duet dryer. That is a great sign.

    I have two cats also, and the other thing I didn't like the sound of, was when you saw all the cat hair left behind in the Miele washer drum.

    Again thanks to all of you for your inputs. I also read some other negative inputs about the Miele 4840 on two additional web sites that Saturday evening too.

    Thank goodness for the internet, it really does come in handy when making expensive purchase decisions. = )

    amigo Karen

  • rhoda_dendron
    16 years ago

    Thanks for the heads up on the new Miele washers. I was about to purchase a set for $3500 here in Canada. Guess I'll look at the Kenmore HE 5t also.

    I would have thought the LG would be a second choice to the Miele, given that the price is around the same.

    Since consumer reports didn't like the Miele, and apparently they were right about this, does this mean that they are also right in rating the LG #1?

  • regus_patoff
    16 years ago

    We have the LG 2688 & 8388 (gas) . Happy so far :)

    Servicemen may be few and far between.
    Check where the nearest service center is.

  • gordonr
    16 years ago

    rhoda dendron,

    I missed it! Which Consumer Reports issue tested the Miele W48xx machines?

  • rhoda_dendron
    16 years ago

    Consumer reports didn't test the new 4800 series. They tested an older model (novatronic?) Even then, if you read the individual reviews most people liked their mieles. Somehow consumer reports gave it a very low rating anyway based apparently on how small it was (as best as I can tell since that was the only item which had a low rating).

    Maybe someone else understands the ratings better than I do.I am totally LOST in deciding which washer dryer to get.

    I hear that Donald Trump has made a deal with Miele to use all Miele appliances in his new florida condo project.

    My laundry hookup is set up for the backward miele washer on the right, dryer on the left. It would be so simple to get the miele laundry. All this talk of vibrations and not rinsing and water temperatures off, etc. I would have been better off just going to an appliance store and asking for their recommendation. Does anyone else feel the pain?

  • sshrivastava
    16 years ago

    Not trying to take away from anyone's experiences when I say this, but you always tend to hear the horror stories on these forums. As with most products in this sector, Miele's machines are designed to please the MAJORITY of users. They will end up in the homes of people who want a fast/easy laundry solution but also want the prestige associated with owning a luxury brand.

    I will venture to guess that most consumers aren't as picky as the ones who frequent this forum, and for most consumers the new Miele units will be perfectly fine. The vast majority of the American laundry buying public knows nothing of profile washes, on-board heaters, etc., yet I don't think you can claim that they are all walking around in dirty clothing.

    Everything must be taken in context. Currently, if you want a super high capacity front load washer, you will need to sacrifice 220v and a powerful heater. For some it's a worthwhile trade if they have lots of king size comforters and duvets to wash. There are limits to the usefulness of high temperatures -- I used to wash my kitchen towels at 205°F, and now they are full of holes. I may have gotten similar results at 150°F without the holes if I had a machine that didn't offer the super high temps, who knows?

    I am confident that if the Miele has such obvious problems then Miele will take care of those issues in short order. My Asko dryer is very noisy as well, I can't talk on the phone and stand in the laundry room at the same time if I expect the other party to hear anything I'm saying. But it was never an issue for me because I always expect a certain amount of noise during laundry and have nothing else to compare it to.

    Miele rightfully figured that the MAJORITY of folks won't need the on-board heater because they will be feeding the machine hot water from the water heater. The "Normal" wash mode was designed for the majority of users, that's all, and most people will appreciate that they're not engaging the heater when they don't want or need it. For those who do want it, there are custom wash cycles that can be programmed to use this feature. It seems like a win-win to me.

  • curiousshopper
    16 years ago

    So it's a Whirlpool Duet.

    The extra $1,000 buys snob appeal, not increased performance.

  • jerrod6
    16 years ago

    I have Miele appliances in my home and like them. I bought my first Miele appliance, a DW and then a washer before I ever knew this forum existed. I never even heard about Miele from anyone...so I am not interested in snob appeal or prestige. I bought my stuff because it was advertised to last a long time and so far having Miele for 12 years things having been going along with out problems.

    The heater issue: If anyone from Germany walked down a supermarket isle, or watched any TV shows with advertisements they would quickly realize that folks in the U.S.A are in love with chlorine Bleach. It is everywhere, and most of us use it. So this machine was made with a bleach dispenser - for us. If you use bleach there is no need for high temps. The first thing people in the USA balk at with older Miele washers is the fact that they use 220V. Every time my neighbors look at the washer they go into a snit and say..well it needs 220V - I'm not doing that. So by adding the bleach feature which the general population LOVES, it enabled them to use 120V, and allow folks to bleach the death out of everything...getting things clean, white and sanitized. Voltage obstacle removed.

    My older unit will heat the water to boiling temps...but I rarely need it. Everything even whites come out just fine at a temp of 120F using a cycle that lasts 48 minutes. Sometimes I increase the temp to 140F but this is rare and almost never use a boiling temp. The advantage of 220V is that the washer can heat this hot very very fast if you need it...but with chlorine bleach you won't.

    So I think for the general population the lack of heat on the normal cycle(which is also not present on some other machines sold in the U.S.A) will not be a deal breaker for them.

    I am interested in having appliances that will last more than the current 6 or 7 year life expectancy we have now, and I expect to fix my units when they need servicing rather than immediately thinking about replacing them. Replacing is the first thing we think of isn't it? --"Well it's broken, I need a new one" Then we have fun and make ourselves feel good buying something new.

    It will be interesting to see how long these new super-sized units last.

  • curiousshopper
    16 years ago

    Fair enough on the longevity argument.

    It would be interesting to have an engineer who specializes in home appliances appraise the innards and rate the construction quality compared to the Whirlpool.

  • chipshot
    16 years ago

    It would be interesting, curiousshopper. However, I'm not sure where you would find a home appliance engineer who didn't work for one of the companies (perhaps had history with several) or didn't have an axe to grind. Repair technicians seem to be a good source of information, though I'm not sure how reliable they are.

    I too wish there were a perfect source to help find a perfect washer/dryer pair. I hope if anyone here discovers it they won't keep it a secret.

    FWIW, our Miele and Bosch pairs are both going strong (no mold, vibrations, error codes, etc.) after nearly five years, sitting still in an uninhabitable moldy house that has been the subject of protracted litigation. So don't just focus on appliances. Get the basic structure and water management right too.

  • paidtoomuch
    16 years ago

    I got a Miele W3033. It's connected to cold only. This one also does not heat the water in Normal mode.

    Called Miele customer service and they gave the "workaround" of using the custom cycle instead of the normal cycle. No word anywhere in the manual about this. Just the opposite. It describes all the different temperatures one can set for the normal cycle. I call this deception.

    Overall my experience so far is quite disappointing. It took four visits to get the machine installed in the first place.

    1. Machine arrives but installation crew cannot install the machine because it needs the Y coupler to feed cold water to both the hot and cold water inlet. (First I could not believe that this is actually true)Of course they did not have one and made us buy one. In addition the provided drain hose was to short and they had to order a longer one (2 weeks).
    Is it too much to ask to after paying $2k that the installation crew has a Y coupler and a longer hose with them? We just thought we were replacing a leaking Asko with a new Miele. We even checked that it could run with cold water only as we have only a cold hook up. Having no washing machine with two little kids is not really an option.

    1. Installation crew comes back after we got the Y coupler and cut the drain pipe so that the standard drain hose would fit. Saved us the 2 weeks wait.

    Run the first load. Once the spin cycle starts the machine jumps around. Believe it or not the installation crew forgot to take out the shipping struts and did not level the machine.

    3. Crew comes back takes out the shipping struts but takes the struts with them.

    4. Called the store again to ask for the return of the shipping struts which they did.

    I guess you not only get German engineering but also German customer service. (I'm German and lived there for more than 30 years)