Do you think GardenWeb will participate in the Moment of Silence on Friday at 9:30 AM ET?

Annie, I'm sorry you feel that way. I appreciate hearing the varying opinions and I hope that even if people initially react with anger towards differing points of view, we are all (eventually) stronger knowing how others feel. Each of these threads has helped me to move towards some sort of understanding. I've learned more about American society's thinking on this event from these threads than I ever would have from watching media coverage.

One way to discern whether a particular point is slanted or not is to imagine it replaced with alternatives. For instance, how would folks have felt here if the poem said "the children were so happy to see Allah, and he said "I'm taking back my schools"...or "The Goddess has come to restore peace to the land"...

I have a feeling that Christians, if you're honest, would have gone UP IN ARMS about Allah coming to take *his* children home. And are they really Allah's schools? Or are they really the Goddess's schools?

It's like the sexism inherent in Romance languages. If you have one man in a group of 20, you have to use a male pronoun here. The way you can tell it's sexist is that people would *laugh* if you said that you have to use the female pronoun if there's one woman in a group of men.

Same here. Do the above, and the bias becomes clear to those who aren't biased in the original direction.

correction: becomes clear to those who aren't able to see the bias inherent in the original direction.

"I have a feeling that Christians, if you're honest, would have gone UP IN ARMS about Allah coming to take *his* children home"

No, for some reason, it doesn't bother me a bit. Same concept, perhaps, that an infinite, loving entity welcomes its own into safety, peace, & well being. Whatever you want to call it or however you want to conceptualize it doesn't affect my terms or conceptualization. Surprise, but we can coexist.

We have other non christian things talked about all the time: meditation, chanting, etc. and no one gets ruffled.

This post was edited by Bumblebeez on Thu, Dec 20, 12 at 22:16

I saw the poem early this morning. My first reaction was "Ouch!" Part of the "ouch" was distaste because the SP childrens' deaths were chilling and real and I think this poem sanitizes and romanticizes what happened. The other part of the "ouch" was that not all the children who died at SP were Christian. I know this for sure about a little girl who died because she was the daughter of a friend of a friend. Another little boy, as the news stated, was Jewish. So the "ouch" was also partly because I think this poem demeans the deaths of the children who were not Christian because it doesn't acknowledge their existence.
Just my .02

So much stress could be reduced if people just learned to IGNORE the belief system that conflicts with theirs if it is brought up PERIPHERALLY to the subject at hand. This thread was about 26 murdered people, wasn't it?

Do ANY of you really believe you are going to alter someone's belief system, however warped you may think it by "calling them out" on it and arguing? I don't think one mind is going to be opened or changed here.. Belief systems are like a--h-les, everybody's got one and sometimes you think they stink. Get over it.

I rarely pay attention to this forum anymore , and have generally been a much happier participant by learning to ignore certain people and certain comments all together.
Although I do think some people get a great deal of pleasure out of this sort of conflict, they seem to engage in it enough.

Along with the new edit function , maybe they will come up with an Ignore poster function. It would be well worth it.

"this poem demeans the deaths of the children who were not Christian because it doesn't acknowledge their existence."

That is so false and is an insult, slight, whatever you want to call it, to those children and other religions. No one is forgetting or demeaning anyone in the group of casualties nor are any of them non-existent to anyone because it happened to be a Christian-based poem. It's no wonder people can't say anything without ruffling, if content becomes that warped in interpretation.

"I have a feeling that Christians, if you're honest, would have gone UP IN ARMS about Allah coming to take *his* children home"

Wouldn't bother me either to hear someone of another faith speaking in their own terms. I agree completely with awm03 and don't understand why people take it so literally:

"Same concept, perhaps, that an infinite, loving entity welcomes its own into safety, peace, & well being. Whatever you want to call it or however you want to conceptualize it doesn't affect my terms or conceptualization. "

Maybe not all the children were raised Christian, but, "I" believe they are all with God, as do the vast majority of this nation, who are Christian, whether they were raised like that or not.

This is what I don't get, some of you who state you are Christian, gets SO ANGRY when God or Jesus are even mentioned. I was taught that you are either on one side of the fence or the other, make up your mind, you can't just halfway believe in God. I'm not telling you (not just GW'ers) what you should believe, but get off the fence post!

A question: whose schools are they?

Well, one of the schools is our district was closed today because of credible threats (though they're not giving out details) and a student was arrested. My children, who do not go to that school, are very frightened. It is the last day of school before winter break. When my kid learned about this he got very quiet. He said "I don't want to go to school." DH (tough guy) said "anything could happen ANY day." He is right. But at the moment we're just all on edge. My kid has good grades and a good attendence record. I let him stay home. DH wouldn't have let him stay home. Maybe that's wrong but under the circumstances (last day before break, everyone distracted by the closure and the threat) it doesn't seem like a big deal. Given this, and my mood in general, I just can't argue about non-issues like a poem that someone posted online. The discussion on this particular board makes me feel sad.

I agree it's a non-issue. Sad, pointless. I am bowing out of the discussion.

Peace to all this holiday season.

I wasn't going to post on this subject again, but I do need to say this. It's not just this topic, it's many topics this happens in.

When objecting to someone's opinion, be kind in doing so. Like we would if we were sitting together around the kitchen table.

When someome vehemently disagrees with an exclamation point at the end of their sentence, that is when feelings get hurt and "fights" ensue. It feels like the poster is being screamed at.

It's not that we disagree, it's HOW we compose our opposing opinions to others.

That's all. :)

Yes the wackos are out in full force.

A Newtown school was threatened the other day even though it wasn't open for children yet. Yesterday, New Milford closed a school after receiving threats and school will be closed today because of it.

Today there are reports of threats being received at a lot of schools based on the Mayan Calendar end of the world as we know it business.

Most of the threats so far have turned out to be nothing, but there are others that have yielded weapons and unstable people.

The insanity continues, let's hope it does not lead to more tragedy.

Here is a link that might be useful: Schools face threats

The media's (typical) irresponsible coverage of terrorist acts contributes to this. I have terminated them!

Yes, just like Morgan Freeman said. lol!

What do you mean? I'd like a good laugh too.

There is a recent hoax about something he said in regards to the media coverage of terrorist events and shootings. It's thoughtful. Although he didn't actually say it.
You can easily find it.

I will be joining the community in a moment of silence and ringing a bell of my own 28 times at 9:30 this morning in remembrance of all who lost their lives last week.

Here is a link that might be useful: Day of Mourning

Judithn, if it means anything, I would have done the same thing. The most important thing right now is to listen to our children and have them feel safe. I hope you have a happy day with your son, baking cookies or something.

Well, the so called "quote" puts more great ideas out there for copycat killers to put in their arsenal.

I can easily IGNORE posts on certain topics, say, what color XYZ to get, cuz, frankly, I don't like XYZ at all and think it looks fugly in all situations, but the highly political "poem" is not something I can or will ignore because it reflects a regressive and repressive mindset that I abhor and feel is detrimental to peace and harmony throughout the world, and that I believe it is my duty as a citizen of the Earth not to IGNORE.

Some of you feel criticism of a political statement disguised as an homage to murdered children is a personal attack on you or your beliefs or that it is somehow disrespectful of the murdered students and staff at Sandy Hook, and that is how you feel, nothing is going to change that.

But know that I, others on this thread, many, many others in the world at large and, BTW, our constitution, believe in separation of church and state and don't believe the US is a "christian" country and I don't for the life of me understand why that scares *some* followers of organized religion.

sandyponder

Very inflammatory post.

I am not saying to ignore it in your heart. But it is nonproductive to argue in circular patterns with people whose beliefs are strongly different than yours. You won't change their opinion and vice versa. And the people reading along already have their own opinions, too.

The saddest part of all this that the murderer, whose name I don't want to even know, would be getting the biggest charge out of all of this.

I only decided to post another response to get this ridiculous thread closer to the 150 mark.

I've just walked in from outside in the pouring rain and powerful wind where I spent a moment in silence and remembrance of the 28 dead in Sandy Hook. I rang my bell 28 times and couldn't stop at that. I just so want the pain and suffering for so many to end. I want a renewed sense of peace and kindness towards others to come out of this horror so that the tragically short lives of these beautiful little children did not end in vain. I want gentleness to become 10 times more valued in our culture than violence. My face was wet, and not just from the rain....

----------------

I'm not diminishing the importance of a discussion of religion and politics, but I would really prefer it to occur in another thread.

I am a longtime lurker and sometime contributer, but I just had to come out of lurkerdom to ask this question. And this is an honest question I'd like to get some feedback on...not trying to stir the pot, promise!

As a Christian, I find comfort and peace in God during heartbreaking tragedies like these. Times like these when I can't humanly understand why something happened. I'm an elementary school teacher and have had nightmares since this happened last week. The only way I can get through each day is to ask God for strength. How do those of you who don't believe in God cope? Who do you turn to? How do you reason things out?
Like I said, I honestly would like to get your points of view on this. Hopefully we can have an adult discussion!

Fugly! Bwahahahahaha. One of my favorite words.

Oakley, I was thinking the same thing this morning. I have religious and/or Republican and/or gun totin' friends, with whom I don't agree, but we're still friends. I'm going to try to imagine that one of them is speaking here and how I would respond to them. Unfortunately, the anonymity of the Inet allows us to demonize or set aside efforts to be more polite in our discussions. My tone, at times, could use some improvement.

Fortunately, tho, not being at the kitchen table allows me to ignore some of the prolific inanity by some posters here who don't even seem to read what anyone else has written.

And that's what this is - a discussion. I don't think anyone is trying to convert anyone over to their side. I believe discussion is a good thing. If you don't have the stomach for it, don't participate. I've read some really thoughtful and intelligent posts here (including yours, Judith), and they're not always in agreement with my point of view. It's also nice to reach out and commiserate sometimes.

Nothing is perfect. I see more good in this thread than evil.

Anyone who finds this thread ridiculous should simply ignore it - you don't need "an ignore button" to do that.

While we will likely never reach agreement, I do think that some important ideas and opinions have been shared here.

And Olliesmom, I just want to respond to what you said about being "on the fence post." I kinda think it's ok to be there. Those of us who believe are all in very different, personal places as we walk in faith. Some of us have a deep certainty about spiritual things. Some of us waffle and waver and have many more questions than answers. Some of us are assured. Some of us still wonder and seek. And I think that's ok. One of the wonderful things about our creator is the infinite mercy and patience with which we are graced. Each of us is permitted to walk our own walk, at our own pace, and come to the understandings that we need, at the perfect time.

I agree with MizAnnThrope. I see more positive discussion in this thread than ill will. On this day of remembrance, I honestly do wish each of you peace and comfort.

Pal said, "The saddest part of all this that the murderer, whose name I don't want to even know, would be getting the biggest charge out of all of this."

Why would you think that? He was mentally ill. I'm a Christian, and I pray to God that He has His arm's wrapped tightly around that young man right now and has eased his pain. Again, he did not ask to be born this way.

angel411, something you may not have thought of is that some of us aren't able to believe. Sometimes, like now, I would like to have that comfort and belief, but it's just hard for me to believe. No disrespect. I don't know if there's a God.

I comfort myself by believing that most people are inherently good.

Sunny, if you do have questions or unsure, no problem with that, it's normal to have questions, but, until you are sure, maybe it's not a good idea to post strong views or support until you know in your heart how you really feel. It only hurts others who are really sure what they believe and are trying to see some sense to all this. I can respect people who are not Christian at all, because they truly feel they don't believe. But, those of us who call ourselves Christian, be a Christian or not, because it's not helping. Just my personal opinion, I do not speak for all Christians, of course!

Olliesmom, I can't agree that I (or anyone who is still "on the path to enlightment") should remain silent, simply because I don't have all the answers. Not having all the answers doesn't mean that we aren't capable of critical thinking, and it doesn't invalidate our opinion. Perhaps what we have to say right here, right now - given the knowledge that we've gained thus far in our journey - will be helpful to someone. Maybe not to you, but perhaps to someone else. Anyway - we obviously won't agree, so I'll just leave it at this. Merry Christmas to you.

This post was edited by SunnyCottage on Fri, Dec 21, 12 at 11:18

Angel, I think you have asked thoughtful questions about how non-believers cope with tragedy. I somehow would be much more troubled if I believed that a just, loving, almighty, all-knowing being let a tragedy like this occur.

Is there a God? No one knows. What I do know is that most world religions have torn apart humanity by the belief in prophets who say they speak for God or who are claimed to be the son of God. I have no problem with a belief in God because if a creator exists, it is the same creator for all of us. We can call him/her/it whatever we like. But I really don't see this as a poem about God.

What I abhor is the the far right rhetoric of "taking back our country", which is the true purpose of the poem. That was the writer's agenda when he put pen to paper, disguised at first as a comforting poem of happy children in heaven. There's anger and self-righteousness in the last stanzas (and the rhyme and rhythm go all to hell), so how is that a comfort?

President Obama mentioned God and or scripture probably half a dozen times during his speech in Newtown. I'm just wondering if anyone was offended by that? I'm not trying to be divisive, I'm just genuinely curious. Not being American, it's sometimes hard to reconcile the assertion that the US is not a Christian nation with a speech from your leader that talks about God's grace, heaven, being called home, etc.

I'm going to try to move the discussion of religion and politics to another thread in the hopes that this one can remain for discussions of the tragedy and comfort and actions we can take to turn the negative into positives.

For those who are interested, the University of Connecticut has created a scholarship fund in memory of those who lost their lives last Friday.

Please move discussion of religion and politics to the new thread titled such....

Here is a link that might be useful: Scholarship fund

"What I abhor is the the far right rhetoric of "taking back our country", which is the true purpose of the poem. That was the writer's agenda"

It's the writer's agenda if you/they are highly political. I don't like the obviously politically driven motives and demeaning nature this thread took. So that's the same thing.

I hear (our) leaders speak of God, prayers frequently and do not take offense. I also wonder how they manage that because it generally causes such a ruckus. I'm surprised it hasn't been outlawed.

This post was edited by snookums2 on Fri, Dec 21, 12 at 13:07

Thanks snookums for your consideration....

This post was edited by AnnieDeighnaugh on Fri, Dec 21, 12 at 13:29

Sorry, I didn't realize and wasn't intentionally making that type of juxtaposition. I will take it out.

You best do the same, having repeated it, if it should happen to upset someone to hear.

Annie, this thread is almost over and should die. Not start another one. I would suggest deleting the other continued one, as well.

All this moderation is tiring.

This post was edited by snookums2 on Fri, Dec 21, 12 at 13:09

I disagree - let the other thread stand. Those who wish to discuss these matters (and there are obviously a number of us) can do so. Anyone who doesn't want to participate can simply not open the thread.

500 posts is not enough?

If you choose not to participate, what difference does it make?
:-)

It creates a negative environment. That's what Hot Topics is for.

Are you just baiting me so that this thread will reach 150 quickly? ;-D

Unless/until the moderators pull the thread or instruct us to take it to Hot Topics, I don't think any one of us should dictate what can be discussed among consenting adults. A "negative environment" can exist only in the context of an active discussion, and if you don't want to participate in that discussion (thanks to the thread that Annie graciously started), you don't have to. There are plenty of other discussions going on in the forum.

It only creates a negative environment, snookums2, if, 1. you open the thread and 2. you believe that debate is negative.

sandyponder

If the next discussion actually *IS* a debate, which presupposes some consideration of the opposing point of view. then fine. Yes, I am just posting again to get this one step closer to 150.

hey, nancybee, your post struck me, so just a brief comment:
I just wanted to say doubt is part & parcel of my faith, if you can understand that. Pope Benedict wrote some terrific stuff about doubt being normal, that one should expect to grapple with it off and on. He wrote about faith being a choice one makes to believe there is more beyond what we can experience and know ("That's not truth," he said, "that's engineering."). It is a gamble, of course, because we can't truly know for sure. But opening one's mind to the possibility of a Greater Other -- now there's an adventure! Anyway, I loved the concept & thought you might find some food for thought there too.

awm, thank you, how thoughtful of you, I will definitely think about that and try to keep an open mind.

Thank you oakley...you said it better than I . I am a believer in people .

I have had two brothers commit suicide and a son that has struggled with mental illness for decades. Deciding to write a person off because they have performed in a way that is abhorrent to the rest of us is a knee jerk reaction. It has taken me decades to realize that someone else's pain can be and likely is greater than mine. I will never know what moves them to the actions they commit .

My DH and I get up every single day and say thank you for the life we have. I would hope that others would do the same. Energy spent reviling those that are "different" is wasted. Take care of the circle of light that surrounds you that is ALL that any of us can do. If we each do this the circles will grow to include all. c