Again, problems with misinformation. I apologize. Apparently he did have a rifle with him in the school which is not what had been reported initially. The police are not yet saying much about the weaponry or its sources. In fact, the state police have yet to even confirm who the shooter was. We have to wait until they have their say before we know the facts of the case. The state police also said they have no reports of a prior altercation between the shooter and people at the school. Which really begs the question of why he went there at all. Hopefully, with time, the facts will bear out.

Cindyloo, I understand what you are saying, but the odds of being able to fix a problem locally are greater than across a thousand miles. So blaming the good people of Newtown for the situation, something that most likely will never happen here again, is far less effective than focusing on what preventative action people can take in their own communities. Especially when the good people in this community are already suffering so mightily, the last thing they need is for people to point fingers and pile on. I understand that people may feel a need to point fingers at others in the hopes that this some how separates and protects them from similar events, but it doesn't.

I agree that you are raising a far more important issue than who has access to which kinds of guns or whether or not there are metal detectors at the door. The fact remains that we may know people who exhibit concerning behavior, and yet in many instances are reluctant to report it out of fear of causing trouble or getting involved. But even if we are willing to report it, to whom do we report and with what result. What can be done about people who we feel may be a danger but who have no prior history of violence. If we had a process in place to raise these red flags and method to deal with the potential danger, we would all be better off. And yet a system such as that can easily be abused by the angry or vindictive to create problems for the innocent. I don't think there are perfect solutions here.

We don't blame the keyboard for the typo or the pen for the misspelling, but it's very easy to blame the gun for the shooting instead of the shooter. The vast majority of guns are semi-automatic, so banning those weapons would be close to banning all guns. Consider too that gun laws were far less stringent in the 1930s and 1940s than they are now, yet mass school shootings were essentially unheard of. So something other than access to weaponry is at work here. We need to get a better understanding of the what and the why of changes in our culture that have led to a growing frequency of these tragic events before we will find a better solution.

Keep the guns limit, control or ban the bullets. This would not at all hinder anyone's constitutional rights while reducing the number of fatalities per incident. Fixing our mental health care is a far harder fix. Patient rights trump social welfare and antidiscrimination laws make it impossible to say everyone can own a gun but the mentally ill can not.

Exactly right AnnieDeighnaugh.

We also don't blame the car for the drunk driver, or the match for the arsonist.

The amount of mis-info perpetuated by the media is absolutely astounding. They also initially circulated a picture of the gunman's brother and identified him as the alleged shooter, based on very sketchy early info. They took his picture off his Facebook page!!!

NBC is doing some pretty questionable reporting in this article: http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/15/15926718-newtown-gunman-forced-his-way-into-school-police-say?lite

"The motive for the mass killing was unknown, but officials told NBC's Pete Williams that they were investigating a report that someone had an "altercation" with four staff members at the school on Thursday three of whom were killed the next day."

"Someone" did... Why even report something so vague???

We don't blame the keyboard for the typo or the pen for the misspelling, but it's very easy to blame the gun for the shooting instead of the shooter. and We also don't blame the car for the drunk driver, or the match for the arsonist

See this is where you lose your argument. NO ONE is blaming the gun. What some of us are saying is that the type of guns allowed to be owned legally that are then used in these crimes causes out-of-proportion carnage. The young man who did this is responsible. However, without his weapon of choice, he would have been far less lethal in his attack. I honestly don't understand why that is considered an unreasonable statement. It is, actually, a fact. It is impossible to reason with those who insist on creating false comparisons.

cyn427, this troubled person could have run his car up on the pavement in a crowded area on purpose and caused mass casualties- these types of things have happened before. Should we ban cars? 27 people die each day in the U.S. because of drunk drivers, so banning cars would prevent all kinds of people from using them as a weapon.

He could have set the school on fire, should we ban matches?

Who decides which types of guns are too dangerous to be owned? What happens if reasonable people disagree on what type of weapons are too "lethal" for people. Where do we draw the line and who gets to decide where that line is?

Why should law abiding citizens lose their right to bear arms because a small percentage of the population uses guns to commit heinous crimes? We don't take cars away because a small percentage of people drive them drunk.

What makes you think he couldn't have gotten these guns illegally even if there were bans, did people stop buying alcohol during prohibition? He stole these guns from his mother, he didn't buy them. It is already illegal to shoot up a school, if this man didn't want to follow that law, would he follow a law that said he couldn't get a gun?

There is nothing black and white about this issue and more government regulation of guns is very far from a black and white issue. It is not a panacea that solves all problems and the gun control argument as the primary argument takes all the attention away from other key issues!

"So blaming the good people of Newtown for the situation... Especially when the good people in this community are already suffering so mightily...for people to point fingers and pile on...a need to point fingers at others in the hopes that this some how separates and protects them from similar events, but it doesn't."

Will all due respect, Annie--What are you talking about???
I am truly clueless. I have yet to see any finger pointing toward Newtown residents, & I'm not aware of residents outside of Newtown comforting themselves with the delusion that this couldn't happen to them. I think most citizens of the world are accutely aware that anything can happen anywhere!

Beagles and Annie, I have never seen the media act as irresponsibly as they have with this incident. Yesterday we were fed numerous baseless facts and speculation. Disclaimers that some announcements were "unconfirmed" don't help. The average viewer does not listen or repeat news carefully enough to keep such reports in perspective. Misinformation always hurts someone, if only the misinformed.
The public is emotional about this incident and someone might have taken some kind of irreversible action based on misinformation. I am appalled that the media is now reporting rumors and speculation on such a serious matter. This trend needs to be stopped immediately.

Why would any family member who is grieving WANT to be interviewed by the media so soon after the incident?

I taught a woman whose mother died of exposure because she was a severe alcoholic.

The news media interviewed the woman's current boyfriend "son, and daughter"(actually the boyfriend's kids) who wailed away on the news pointing at the small memorial that had accumulated where she had been found.

The woman I taught (her biological daughter), as well as the woman's biological son and separated husband stayed well away from the media. She told me after "I am sure they had their friends all video tape it so they could watch their minute of fame over and over."

Sorry but I have seen "those close" to the victim relish their own presence in the spotlight to make me suspicious of ANYbody who feels they need to speak with the media so soon after the event.

Granted, I'm upset and sensitive about this event because it happened so close to home. I'm talking about comments like:

why weren't there metal detectors at the school?
why weren't there armed security guards at the school?
why did the mother have all these guns?
how could she keep weapons in the house when her son had mental issues?

and not here, but elsewhere I've seen people blame the parents for not pursuing his mental problems when they must have been apparent before this.... after all, they had the money....when it isn't clear that whatever issues he may or may not have had would've led him to this level of violence.

That's what I'm talking about...

Do you live in Newtown, Annie? I've been trying to keep up with this thread but might have missed it.

Our lack of understanding does not change the fact that some people do want to be interviewed. The big "get" today was the father of victim Emilie Parker. I think he is the first parent to give an interview.

Only he knows why he did it but I certainly would never judge him or anyone else for how they handle a death in their family! Some people want as many people as possible to know about their loved one, some people just want to talk to anyone that will listen, Mr. Parker's message conveyed some religious beliefs and some messages of good will, but he also mentioned that a fund has been set up for his family.

I judge.

I was by no means talking about going door to door, but rather to the gun shops across the USA, and also not talking about hand guns we have in our homes for protection or hunting rifles, but if this is not stopped, what's next? over the shoulder missle launchers?? there is no logical reason for you or I to own an assault weapon, and guess what, dh & I were almost killed in an attempted home invasion,by 4 hoodied thugs,wanted in 5 states, police were here till 3 AM, we have since beefed up our security, gone wireless and own a hand gun. But we still believe in outlawing assault weapons, for the good of mankind. You never want to experience what we did that night, and we are older, at the time only had a kit. knife, so lucky police got here however it took them 14 mins., just as they cut our screen and about to break the glass, after having cut our phone lines etc. our cell phone saved us that night.

"Someone" did... Why even report something so vague???

Because they're all trying to get to the story first. They will announce anything and everything that comes along as the story unfolds, including speculation, as if it's fact. Then they are the first and fastest to report so everyone should watch their news show.

I had nightmares last night and cried on and off all day every time I came across a news story about the tragedy. It's too much to think about.

You can take every law abiding citizens guns away and the criminals will still have them to kill and commit other crimes. It's a proven fact. Just look at the city's where guns are banned. You don't really think taking away my gun will stop another Lanza do you? Timothy McVeigh and the 9/11 killers are a perfect example that you don't need a gun to accomplish mass carnage.

Just yesterday, in China, a nut case with a knife went into a school and sliced up some students. I am not sure if anyone died.

I agree that movies, TV and video games have worked beautifully at desensitizing people to violence. Every morning I wake up to hear someone or more than one, were shot and killed. I say a prayer for their soul and don't give it a second thought because I know tomorroww and the next day, etc. will be the same.

I don't have the answer as to what schools or businesses can or should do, but I do know this. If that school had an armed off duty police officer or a retired officer instead of that poor principal trying to defend that school, Lanza wouldn't have had a chance to kill anyone.

I'm not sure all teachers should be carrying weapons, but I do think all principals and other key personnel should be highly trained and have access to a firearm and be ready to use it if necessary.

Yes, those babies and their protectors are with God now.

I saw a post on FB today and I can't copy to print it here, but the jest of it was, a T shirt and printed on it was: God, how could you allow this horrible tragedy to happen in our schools? Then the response from God was, "I'm not allowed in your schools."

Bad things happen to good people, it's life. How we address and deal with the situations is what will determine our futures.

I know the more we've taken away the exposure to God and increased the exposure to violence, the killings are more and more often and more and more horrific. I'm not talking about religion, I'm talking about believing in something that is much bigger than yourself. It's believing you, as a human being, are important, valued and loved.

Pal I tip my mouse to you for your admission that you judge. It was refreshing!

Annie, some of those questions are exactly why I am so furious at all of the misinformation we heard yesterday. Everyone is upset. People want to know what went wrong to result in such a tragedy. It's partly to focus blame but it's also to identify remedies.

I didn't watch the coverage closely. Did the media repeatedly emphasize that the school was locked but that he forced his way in? Or were they too busy reporting every rumor they heard? I would rather they would have reported over and over the few absolute facts they knew.

Today I heard, but now I have no faith in this "fact" either, that Newtown was recently named one of the top FIVE safest areas in the country. The top FIVE!!!

They got the murderers name wrong and posted a pic of the wrong guy.
They made incorrect statements about the guns used
They incorrectly reported that the principal let him into the school
They incorrectly reported that his mother was a teacher at the school
They incorrectly reported that the shooter was denied the right to buy a gun at Dicks just days before the shooting (he wasn't- when they said there was a waiting period, he didn't try to continue w/ the purchase and he left)

I'm sure there are more. That's just in one day...

Hey thanks Beagles! I was JUST wishing I had a list of the misinformation. I did check out whether Newtown was really on a safe city list. In fact, just last year, it was number five on the safest cities in the country list!

When you say they reported the wrong name and they showed the wrong picture are you referring to when the media identified the shooter's brother?

I didn't know he had tried to buy a gun the day before. Something does not compute then. Maybe the guns he used did not come from home?

Apparently, on December 11, he tried to buy a gun from Dick's sporting goods. Most of the media said he was "denied." However, I guess that what really happened was he wanted to buy a gun and leave the store immediately with it. He was informed that there was a three day waiting period and he then left the store. [Of course, who knows whether this account is even accurate either]

Yes, they identified his brother and labeled him as the killer:
"Ryan Lanza, 24, was identified Friday afternoon as the shooter responsible for killing 26 people at the elementary school.

By 2:45 p.m. Friday, more than 10,000 people had re-shared a Facebook photo of a Ryan Lanza with comments like "killer" and "rot in hell."

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2012/12/14/was-an-innocent-person-wrongly-identified-as-ryan-lanza-responsible-for-connecticut-elementary-school-shooting

Connecticut also has the 5th strictest gun laws in the entire United States:

"In 2011, Connecticut was rated the fifth toughest by the pro-gun control Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence on a scorecard which gave points for each restriction the group favors."

Japan has very strict gun laws, but they weren't needed to kill people. The incidents I remember:
- toxic gas in the subway
- crazy guy drove a van through a busy shopping district running over several people. He then got out of the van and stabbed several people with a large knife.

How about September 11? Thousands of people murdered with airplanes.

What else should be banned to avoid future incidents like these?

Cindyloo, if the media is correct, the doors were locked and people have to press a button for it to buzz, then someone lets them in. That's the way it is here.

Apparently the guy shot out the door and was able to enter on his own.

That's why I say if a principal or someone at the school had a concealed gun, the guy wouldn't have done what he did.

Yes, I know it's awful to even think that teachers and principals should carry guns, even an armed guard. But we live in an unfortunate era now, and it will NEVER get better, even if we ban assault weapons. They's be just as available as illegal drugs are.

It's unfortunate, but that's what our society has become now.

Also, even if his mother didn't have guns, he still would have found one. Or a 100.

Lukki, I agree with your last post a 100%!

Suzieq, that's terrible. I'm so glad you and your husband are ok!

Yes fire, cars and bombs are used to commit massacres in countries with strong gun control but these are few and far between. The circus fire of 44, the Daegu subway fire, 911, the knife incident in china(where no one died!) etc are spaced years apart but our massacress are in this month weekly and we have had at least five gun committed massacres in just this President's first term. It is a gun issue and I am ashamed of how we must look to more civilized nations at this point. Enough is too much. We can not change people we can limit damage. And, as to the drunk driving issue, I for one would love to see every car equipped with a breathalyzer ignition to prevent more senseless deaths.

This ad is from 1981. It certainly isn't any better today. I get why people want to have their guns. I, of course, get why guns are bad. What I don't get is why reasonable people can't see that there needs to be some kind of compromise on gun control in this country. The gun lobbyists have one single motivation - MONEY - they don't give a damn about any individual, "constitutional" rights.

{{gwi:1527546}}

I guess I just haven't been thinking. There's a Dick's Sporting Goods in my shopping center! I best run right out and build up my arsenal before I open the store today.

An interesting article....

David Atkins takes it further, saying the awful truth: the pro-gun fanatics are basically the kind of people who think that Obama is a Kenyan socialist atheistic Islamist, and the urban hordes are coming for their property any day now. People, in other words, who already vote 100 percent Republican - and lose elections.

Here is a link that might be useful: Whistling Past the Gun Lobby

deedee99 I really wish you hadn't taken it there. Extremely insulting to a number of people who have perfectly valid reasons for their beliefs too!!!

I was insulting fanatics.

Dee, can we stop lumping whole groups together? Your post refers to the fanatics as belonging to a certain party. It is a MYTH that it's only one sided. I live somewhat out in the country and am surrounded by people of your party with guns for target practice and hunting. My dad lives up in the U.P and that area is predominantly people of your party that also have large gun collections for hunting. Please stop assisting in promoting the hate toward a certain group.

Ignorant yes, "interesting" not so much. Agree, best not to have gone there.

The fanatics that deedee99 was referring to DO belong to only one party. Kind of hard to imagine a liberal birther, isn't it? And if you read the link to Paul Krugman's op-ed, you would have seen that he was talking about assault rifles, something i believe you agreed with banning up thread, jterrilynn. NO ONE is talking about banning hunting rifles, but banning assault weapons and handguns should, and now hopefully is, be on the table for discussion.

BTW, I live in rural NNY and in the locked gun cabinet in our bedroom are several hunting rifles that belong to mr. Sandyponder. Locked in the attic in a strongbox is the ammo. We are not anti gun, we are anti semi or fully automatic guns, period.

And since the soapbox is still out, maybe if the US spent a small fraction of the money we spend on wars, including the war on drugs, we would have the funds to address mental health issues properly and reduce the stigma of same.

Sandyponder

We learned at mass this morning that one of the adults killed was a daughter of one of our parisioners. She was the aunt of my son's friend. If you would be so kind, please say an old Catholic prayer for this wonderful, devout family and for the others suffering from this tragedy as well:

"For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world."

Having others recite this bit from the Chaplet of Divine Mercy would be a comfort to the family, if you could please do so in a spirit of religious tolerance & understanding. Many thanks.

Thank you for posting that poster, MizAnnThorp.

Nothing could say it more clearly than that.

People who think differently than you aren't fanatics and name calling is not the way to have an informed discussion. It will be interesting to see if your president actually tries to do anything and, if he does, even more interesting to see how certain swing states (PA, Ohio and Michigan come to mind) react... Only around 46 percent of Americans believe in making gun laws stricter, which by your definition, I guess would make the rest of the country Republican ??

I didn't know that respect for the Constitution makes a person a fanatic either... I guess in this day and age it does or at least part of a 48% minority....

greagollymolly, well said! Of course, we don't know for sure if this would have happened if God wasn't taken out of our schools, but, for many, who had no belief system at all and felt no hope or anyone cared-at least they were taught that there was a supernatural "being" that did care abaout them and their afterlife, even if they didn't learn it at home. For many who believe in God, their life here on earth may be miserable, but they know and have faith it's not forever and they will have something to look forward to in the end.

I know some may feel I am being a fanatic, if so, so be it, but "something" major has happened in our country, and we have lost a lot of the accountability we use to have. And, just maybe...many have lost that only one who seemed to have cared...God.

Another thing, some people say why would God let this happen? God gave each of us free will to choose good or evil, He did not do this!

Do I "know" why people are really doing these horrific things? NO! But, I want it to stop too! Just looking for answers to explore-but it has to be something big we are missing as a country that we use to have!

Our President. Unless of course, you are not a citizen of the United States.

Sandy, I am only asking that we all get past that lumping thing and look for things in common. We do not have to agree on solutions but out of conversations we may all recognize some compromises. There are highly intelligent women and men here. I think we all could make a big difference if we refuse to allow our parties to keep us divided. They want to keep us divided. It never fails, a form of division and prejudice come up toward a group in conversation here. I think we are smart enough to be above that.

Exactly, cyn. I was just about to post the same thing.

Yeah, people of God - like Westboro parishioners. I know plenty of people - that love to invoke God's name - that are complete a-holes and represent nothing of what God supposedly stands for.

I absolutely agree with you, JTerrilynn. So what would you suggest are some reasonable compromises?

I don't see why anyone in the general public needs access to weapons. In a culture that is so focused and entertained by violence. Why can people get ahold of these things? That is crazy. I would worry about any one or household that has a gun around.

We need to face the serious problem going on with our society. We culture violence. We need to clean up and stop developing the minds of our children with this cr@# we call entertainment. It's polluting their minds with evil. Where else are they getting these ideas from.

Violence is not a "crazy person" problem due to a lack of federal health funding. Only a small percentage of violent acts are committed by the mentally ill. One of the major risk factors? Substance abuse. Another one of our society's ideas of a good time.

Personality, culture, environment are paramount. Where every blank slate begins to grow.

This may be a bulletin for some of you, but many of us atheists and agnostics have happy, full, law abiding, moral compass driven lives without the specter of an omnipotent man in the sky monitoring our every thought.

And what MizAnnThrope, cyn247 and nancy bee2010 said, right on, ladies. "Your president", how insulting, and how telling, beaglesdoitbetter.

Sandyponder

Thank you sandyponder.

So calling people against gun control fanatics isn't insulting and lumping them all together isn't insulting, but saying "your president" is over the line. He is a lot of things but he sure as heck doesn't stand for anything I stand for and he is not MY president. I don't think he wants to be either, quite frankly. There have been Presidents I haven't voted for that I would still refer to as "our" president, but I believe that, like it or not, intentional or not, the country is more divided than it has ever been in the past.

I wasn't the one who took this in that direction, BTW!

This post was edited by beaglesdoitbetter on Sun, Dec 16, 12 at 15:07

"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. "David Hume"

I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations. - James Madison

This post was edited by beaglesdoitbetter on Sun, Dec 16, 12 at 12:09

beagles, I didn't vote for George W Bush or agree with much he did, but I never considered him not to be my president.

I hope our president will now take action...

Mental illness has everything to do with this and many of the latest shooting sprees. You need only look at the faces of the perpetrators to see that, much less read their histories. Beyond these big events, the suffering of the mentally ill, their families, and the victims of their crimes should be intolerable in our supposed civilized society; but ever since Reagan, programs for the mentally ill have been slashed. There but for the grace of God go any one of us.

I've been doing my best not to get drawn into the vitriol here, but I guess I'm failing.

Hunting rifles are often semi automatic, so if you consider them assault weapons, then you are talking about banning hunting rifles as well.

Yeah, right....absolutely no one in history has ever been tortured or killed in the name of God by religious people, so clearly Godlessness is at fault.

Raw data on handgun deaths by country is meaningless...it needs to at least be adjusted by the population of the country. The US has over 300 million people, vs say under 10 million in Sweden. And that chart is so out of date as to refer to West Germany.

BTW, I am a liberal and I support gun rights and have had plenty of arguments with republicans who feel just the opposite. Feel free to call me a fanatic if it makes you feel better.

I'm going to try and bow out again....wish me luck.

Mizann, I do not have the answer but to me a compromise would be to not allow any guns that are not single fire. Hunting does not require full or semi automatic fire. For those who carry or have guns for self/ home protection they should maybe not go so far as to have full or semi multiple fire guns and be limited to single shot before re-load. Not owning a gun myself I do not know how the laws work in each state but perhaps a longer than already in place waiting
time to own a gun. In some states that have a three day wait, well maybe a hothead will not have cooled off enough by then.

Of course the bad guys will still be able to come by the full and semi automatic fire on the black market. It would take time to eventually confiscate these gun types and then you would only get a percentage. I think over time it would help though with the availability of full and semi automatic fire guns falling into the hands of those who commit these horrendous shootings like the latest.

Annie, I would respectfully like to hear your take. I really would, so please do not go. It would be interesting to hear your thoughts on a compromise. Or if you think there should not be one.

Nancybee, I am also an agnostic! See we do have something in common even though we did not vote the same way. It is a MYTH that everyone on a particular "side" is Christian. My family is Christian though and voted your party. See, this is what I'm talking about when asking people not to lump people together by party.

This post was edited by jterrilynn on Sun, Dec 16, 12 at 12:32