All of the Albas in the Sacramento cemetery garden sucker, with the exception of Blanche de Belgique, which I've concluded came to us grafted. Banshee suckers aggressively. Almost all of the species roses do, too. Therese Bugnet suckers wildly. Many of our HPs modestly colonize. It seems that the more damask there is in their heritage (based on leaves, shape of buds, fragrance, etc) the more they colonize. We have brick-enclosed raised plots in the cemetery, and it's really quite lovely when a suckering plant fills the entire enclosure, although we often just don't have room for them to do that. Anita

There are just so many different ways to make multi-grain breads, and several different bread-making methods to consider. The neat thing about bread is that it isn't just one thing... I'd also have to ecco rhome410 about milling your own grains/seeds/beans if you are this interested in the healthy aspect of it. It's THE only way to get the most available nutrition. It will also save you a lot of money - especially if you make all your breads - which I do. The price of grains is typically much lower than purchasing the flours. Breadmaking is full of little "rules", along with all the exceptions to the "rules". Knowing the rules will help you troubleshoot the old question, "WHAT HAPPENED?". In fact, "Artisan Bread in 5-Minutes a Day" is a complete contradiction to generally held bread science. A general rule: Adding anything sharp (DRY multi-grain cereal blends, nuts, seeds, flakes I mill at home, etc.) at the BEGINNING of mixing/kneading can result in the gluten strands being cut by the these things. As rhome410 said, she uses a sponge method (soaks a portion of the liquid/flour/yeast, so the dry chopped grains soak up hydration during the sponge. Other recipes will have you add hot water to these grain mixtures to soften them. There are ALWAYS options in the world of bread. I like the added "crunch", so I generally add them late in the kneading. Home-milled flakes are just smashed grains, and they are thicker than commercial old-fashioned oatmeal. Commercial oatmeal is tempered with steam to soften the grain, then it's run through the roller mill. When you make your own flakes you don't temper the grain - you mill it dry. I have a bread recipe that uses steel-cut oats. I'll try to find and post it. You can also make the steel-cut oats into oatmeal and make the recipe I've linked below for Cooked Oatmeal Scones. When making breads by hand I add the gluten-containing flour to the liquids FIRST, and beat the dickens out of that mixture to develop the gluten while the mixture is still in the bowl (adding flour a little at a time and mixing it thoroughly with a Danish Dough Whisk). Then I'll add any non- or low-gluten flour. They don't require the work that gluten-development in wheat flour does. Non- or low-gluten flours just needs to be incorporated. Adding oatmeal is great. If the recipe has you add it early in the process, it will be pulvarized and well-incorporated by the time the loaf is done. You'll have little evidence of it, unless you add some to the top of the loaf just before you bake it. If you add too much oatmeal or oat flour, the bread will be moist, doughy and crumbly. You can also make your own oat flour by running oatmeal through a blender or food processor until it's flour. I make oat flour by milling oat groats. I wouldn't add any more than 20% oat flour to a bread recipe or you'll compromise the texture and crumb. Different grain flours contribute different textures to breads. Dough that has rye flour in it is characteristicly sticky. People tend to continue to add flour to overcome the stickiness and often add too much and end up with a dry dough and a "brick" for a loaf of rye bread. I use rye for all kinds of things, not just breads. It's an under-used flour in my books. It works well in baked goods that don't need a lot of gluten development - like quick breads and cookies. I suspect the "When Pigs Fly" - seven grain and pumpkin seed bread is made mainly with bleached or unbleached bread flour (possibly whole wheat flour) with a portion being either 7-Grain flour, or 7-Grain chopped grain mixture. It comes both ways. Pumpkin seeds can be whole/chopped/pulvarized. I tend to mill sesame seeds (flax as well) I add to breads. (I add flaxmeal to EVERYTHING!) You don't get any of the nutrition unless they are cracked - either masticating or milling them. It's just easier to mill them to assure they are easy to digest. Bob's Red Mill has a 10-grain flour available. You have to be careful using these multi-grain/seed/bean flour combinations because they include non-gluten and low-gluten ingredients. You need a major portion of the flour to contain gluten (flour derived from wheat) and only a small percentage to be from non- or low-gluten flours, or the bread won't rise like you are accustomed to when you make white bread. I don't add WHOLE grains in the form of a wheat berry or an oat groat. They are added either by being milled into flour, coarsely chopped, flakes or sprouts. I like to add whole amaranth seeds to quick breads as an easy addition. They look like golden poppy seeds and add a lot of great nutrition and crunch. I also add amaranth flour to breads. I mill it in a seed mill. This particular mill does those tiny seeds and oily seeds like poppy seeds, sesame seeds, flax, teeny-tiny Tef and amaranth, etc. I can easily substitute 1/2 c. of the flour in the recipe with 1/2 a cup of amaranth flour without too much trouble or changes in the bread texture. That's another way to get multi-grain breads. I use quinoa in cooking, not baking. Quinoa is coated with saponin and you have to wash it very well before using it or it's bitter-tasting. So if you want to mill it into flour you have to wash it and then dry it before you mill it. Not worth the bother in my books. You chance messing your mill up if the grain isn't completely dry when you mill it. Lots of cooked cereals, like cooked quinoa, can be added to bread recipes. I'd also suggest following recipes that include multiple grain mixtures or grain flours in them, before striking out on your own and making your own substitutions. I'd suggest as much studying as you do baking. You can probably get these books at your local library, or have them get them through Inter-Library Loan. - The first 100 pages of "CookWise" by Shirley O. Corriher. That covers a lot of what you need to know about making bread in general. - "The Splendid Grain" by Rebecca Wood. It explains grains and how they are used. For instance, you can make your own rice flour in a coffee/spice mill, but which rice is best for baking? Short- and medium-grain rice are best for baking. Long-grain rice is best for dredging or thickening. Short- and medium-grain rice flour can be used for dredging/thickening, as well as baking. -"The Pleasure of Whole-Grain Breads" - by Beth Hensperger Other little-known rules, like adding ascorbic acid powder to recipes for yeast bread that contain whole wheat flour or wheat germ. Ascorbic acid powder counteracts the negative effects of Glutathione (found in the wheat germ), which breaks the gluten bonds - which accounts for so many short-squatty loaves of 100% whole wheat bread. Ascorbic acid (1/8-t. per loaf) helps prevent gluten bonds from breaking down, helps sustain the leavening during baking (more oven spring), and helps promote yeast growth. I've been studying bread science, milling, and grains for years, and am still learning all the time. Welcome to the club... -Grainlady Here is a link that might be useful: COOKED Oatmeal Scones

marita...my understanding of what you should receive when you purchase the grains online is a dried product that takes approx 7 days to fully rejuvenate. There are exact inst. on the net for how to reconstitute dry grains. I haven't heard of anyone sending out wet/slime grains :) There are no grains per se in my kefir since the weather has gotten cooler. But...today just to help out with your research I let a jar of kefir set out in a warmer place and it has indeed formed a large mass of grains floating on a bunch of clear whey. So it is indeed temp related. I had another jar of fresh milk and 2 tsp of grains sitting in a cool place in the kitchen since this AM and it has become my usual jar of soft yogurty type stuff with no separation and it is ready to go into the fridge to be used in a smoothy in the AM. All temp and time related. As I said...at cool temps it is highly unlikely that you are going to get any distinct grains/curds. It will all be soft cheesy stuff. If I were to put mine in a strainer most of it would stay in the strainer just as yogurt does. When it was hotter weather it drained out a lot of white and clear together and left drier distinct curds...again it is all temp related. I would not give up on what you have. It tastes pleasant...it smells pleasant. When the temps change so will your kefir. I hope you cont. to enjoy. I have now shared my grains and they are living in Montgomery AL and Lexington VA !! It is a wondrous process. c Oh..ps about resting the grains. I take 2 tsp every AM of the current kefir that I am going to eat and place it in a jar of fresh cold 2 % milk and leave it in a cool place for 12 hrs and then place it in the fridge over night...Next AM take out 2 tsp and place in cold milk and leave out....then in fridge and repeat. As far as rest...well they are in new milk every day and they are at a pretty cool temp and the source has been in the fridge all night fully fermented but very cool and waiting /resting. As my grains seem so happy I am not going to change anything. If your grains are happy and taste good I would say " yes" to the process you are following.

Grainlady, Thank you so much! I did go ahead and make the Iced Pumpkin Cookie recipe that you posted. The second batch is just coming out of the oven. They are also wonderful. I iced them and added little fall leaf sprinkles on top. They are darling. I will make the black walnut oatmeal cookies another time. I've been baking cookies since about 9:00 a.m. and I'm done for the day. Need to go on to other things.