I'm sure grainlady will know better than I, but since we buy 7 or 9 grain cereal all ready mixed together, I can't see why you couldn't mix it and store it that way.

We eat a lot of hot cereal, and I prefer the "good stuff" over any instant. I tend to buy the pre-mixed cracked multigrain from the health food store (they sell in bulk), but also stock a number of cereal grains separately, so that I can alter our breakfast cereal by adding a handful of this or that. Keeps us from getting jaded. :D

I keep my grains separated, but that's because I store them in such large quantities to begin with. There's certainly nothing wrong with creating your own Soon-To-Be-Famous mixture and keeping it for your multi-grain cereal mix for cooked cereals and adding to breads.

I make mixtures from wheat, rye, barley, oats, spelt, kamut and triticale. Occasionally I'll toss in some flax or chana dal (immature garbanzo beans), corn or millet.

I'll also run a variety of grains through the flaker mill and make a variety of flakes for hot cereal (wheat, triticale, oats, rye, barley, kamut, spelt).

I prefer the "good stuff" too, which I consider is the cereal blends you can only get from freshly milled grains. Once the bran on grain is cut through milling into flour or coarse grind for cracked grains, the oxidation and degredation begins immediately. Some studies have shown that vitamin loss begins as quickly as 3 hours after milling. Once these milled cereal grains have been left on the shelf, or in the bulk bin, for many months they have lost most of the portions of their B Complex and C Vitamins. So all you are left with is the fiber, and rancid oils.

There are 25 vitamins, minerals and proteins that are available ONLY in freshly milled grains. Science on the subject indicates how important it is to preserve the whole grain and wait until the flour or cracked grain is needed to mill it.

Oils in milled grains doesn't have to smell rancid to BE rancid. Once they get to the point of smelling rancid, they have been rancid for a long time. Degredation of the wheat germ oil begins as soon as it comes in contact with oxygen and the nutrients degrade quickly as well. So in my books, fresh-is-best. If you make more than you can use immediately, freeze it. Freezing slows down the degredation of the oils and nutrients, but doesn't stop it completely. Vacuum sealing in a jar using a FoodSaver Universal Lid on it will help prevent oxidation. I try to use any freshly-milled grain product within 7-days of milling and keep it in the freezer.

-Grainlady

I would be interested in milling my own grains, but haven't a clue where to buy them whole around here. I'm pretty sure I could get them in the SF Bay Area, though I don't go over there very frequently. I guess I'd have to worry first about getting a mill. Does one mill make either flour or flakes, or would I have to get two different ones?

You've probably answered questions like these a million times...is there a good beginner book you can recommend?

rachelellen - Finding grain is indeed the challenge - even here in the middle of wheat country. You'll want a source as close to home as possible because shipping will cost as much as the grain.

Then you'll need to know what kind of wheat/s you want. It's not one size-fits-all. I prefer white wheat varieties for breads and general baking. Hard wheat for yeast/sourdough breads, soft wheat for cakes/pastry/quick breads. I use durum wheat for pasta/noodles.

Book: "Flour Power" The complete guide to 3-minute home flour milling - by Marleeta F. Basey. She may have a newer addition of this book. Check your local library and if they don't have it, see if they can get it through inter-library loan.

Mills are another whole subject (near and dear to my heart ;-). Click on page 4 down below for an old thread entitled - ?'s on grains. I posted a lot of information there.

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/saving/msg1120272031770.html?27

-Grainlady

Grainlady,
Remeber Walnut Acres? They were about 1.5 hours away from me and ever since they went out of business I have been searching for a 12 grain cereal recipe.
When they announced they were going out I went and bought up all the WW flour every stroe had here, vaccuumed sealed and froze it, the same with the 12 grain cereal.
Unfortunetly, I ran out of all 3-4 years ago.
Actually I don't even care for the WW flours I can buy now, so I think I, will be grinding my own using the VitaMix to start, then I will spend for a grain mill.

I really miss this cereal, I have come close with Bob's Red Mill 7 grain and adding, but something is missing.

Thanks, Grainlady. I just didn't know if the grains would mill differently, so was afraid I might create a problem dumping them in all together. --Don't want some to come out whole while others turn to flour!

I don't know why it took me so long to figure out that if I believed it was best to mill my own flour, that it wasn't good to use pre-cracked grain!

I'm excited to have fresh.

For those having trouble finding grain, have you checked into Azure Standard? I ordered from them years ago and mean to check into it again. They have a website explaining the process, and if you register (for free), you can view the catalog and prices.

rhome410 -

I was like you about freshly milled flour, and then it dawned on me about all the others (cracked wheat, bulgur, oats (flakes/steel-cut)... It was a - DUH! - moment.

I sift out any flour after I mill cracked grain. If you don't, you'll end up with paste. I sift it when I make bulgur, and Cream of Wheat or using rice, Cream of Rice.

I'll mix similar seed-types together (wheat/barley/rye,spelt, etc.) and do others separately, then mix it all together after it's coarsely ground. I only do 1-2 T. of any one kind of grain until I have enough milled for what I need it for.

It also depends on which mill I use - the Flaker Mill on the coarse setting or the Corona Corn Mill. With the Corona I can run any and all mixtures through it on a coarse grind. I can't run corn through the Flaker Mill, so I stick to the regular wheat-like grains.

-Grainlady

Am I reading it right that you only mill 1-2 tablespoons at a time? So little? Is that because you usually only need small amounts of the mixture?

I used my blender this morning to crack 1/2 c. spelt and 1/2 c. oat groats for cereal. (So I guess if I'd made an 8-grain mixture, that'd be 2 Tbsp each...so I'm understanding the quantity.) I thought maybe it was because I blended it too long that I got some flour, which I did sift out. I thought maybe I wouldn't get that so much with a mill, but it sounds as if I was wrong about that.

Did you get the Corona and the flaker through "The Whole Truth" site, or is there another source that has both? Have you ever used the Family Grain Mill or Country Living Grain Mill?

rhome410 -

If I need 1/2-3/4 c. cracked grain to add to my bread recipe, it doesn't take very much of 5-10 kinds of grain to achieve that amount, and I normally mill it through the Marga Mulino Flaker Mill - small, easy to use and clean.

The Corona Corn Mill is from Lehman's - many years ago - maybe 10 years. You can only use it for coarse milling.

I have a Family Grain Mill (with motor). It's my back-up mill, should I need a manual-style mill that does a fairly good job on flour (but you have to run it through the mill twice). I got it through Wilderness Family Naturals when they had a special on it several years ago. I also get coconut flour, coconut oil, coconut, and several things from them. I don't think they carry mills anymore.

I had a Whisper Mill (now goes by Wonder Mill) for over 16 years - purchased in a Kitchen Store 30-minutes down the road from here. It died recently after giving great service for many years. Now I use a Nutrimill (purchased through Emergency Essentials on a Mother's Day Special).

The Marga Mulino Flaker Mill makes flakes, coarse flour (I use this for a grind similar to simolina for milling durum wheat for pasta/noodles), and corase chopped grain. I got it through Lehman's many years ago. I can use the coarse setting on my Nutrimill for coarse durum flour similar to simolina or for a fine grind of cornmeal.

I must not get as much flour using my mills as you do using your blender. The blender is much faster than a hand-cranked Flaker Mill.

No one mill can do everything I need done. I've milled flour for over 20 years and have had good, bad, and ugly mills....and am still learning.

-Grainlady

You are truly a font of information, and I really appreciate it!

I use 2 cups of cracked grains in my bread recipe, so will adjust the amounts accordingly. I wasn't sure the blender would give me the size/coarseness consistency that a mill might, since it throws it around instead of moving it through.

Oh boy, grainlady! After I posted you last, I did a google and found that book. It's apparently out of print, and copies are going for over seven hundred dollars. If you've got one, you might want to spend an evening scanning/printing, and put it up for sale!

rachelellen -

Perhaps I need to make a velvet jacket (with gold tassels) for my paperback copy of Flour Power. It's good, but not THAT good (LOL). My copy cost $14.95 and has all kinds of post-it-notes waving from the top and the side.

rhome410 -

I add 1/2-3/4 c. cracked grain (I just eyeball it) to about 2-1/2-lb. of dough. I don't soak it, just add it towards the end of kneading, which could make a difference in the amount. Because of the sharp edges of the cracked grain, if you add it early during kneading it will cut the gluten strands and you'll get a short loaf of bread.

I DO love the "crunch" of the added cracked grain. It also lowers the glycemic impact of the bread because of the larger chunks of grain.

It may be a "grind", but it's still fun to me ;-)!

-Grainlady

I completely agree about the added interest in the texture of the bread, and the goal for lower glycemic impact. The recipe I started using long ago calls for the un-soaked grains to be added at the start...in the sponge. The sponge only develops for 25 minutes or so, but maybe that's long enough to soften them? --Because I've never had trouble with the loaves rising because of it...

I hope I'm not making you repeat yourself, but I'm new here and also new to breadmaking. I've decided to try making my own hearty breads (I, also, bought that artisan bread in less than 5 minutes a day book that's been discussed in other threads). I've made basic white breads and rolls in the past, but not any specialty breads or ones from whole grains. Anyway, I went out and bought a bunch of organic flours - white, whole wheat, rye, and oat. I also bought a package of steel cut oats that I want to incorporate in the bread, but I wasn't sure whether they need to be soaked first or softened in any way or if you just add them in. Grainlady - you said you add them in at the end so they don't "cut" the gluten? Rhome410 - you add them at the start?

May I ask - if you want to add other whole grains to your bread, are there certain ones that need soaking? Others that don't? I would REALLY like to copy as closely as I can a local (Maine - I'm in Massachusetts) bread company's bread, When Pigs Fly - seven grain and pumpkin seed bread. There's obviously pumpkin seeds in it, sesame seeds, the steel cut oats, plus others that I don't know the names of - still learning about different grains that I've never used before, like quinoa (sp?). Can you add regular rolled oats like you buy to make oatmeal with to breads as well?

I'm looking to cook healther and avoid chemicals, pesticides, etc., going organic any time I can, and since hubby has high blood pressure and hypoglycemia, whole grains are better for him (and I like them better anyway!)

Thank you so much for any info you can give me! I'm really looking forward to learning about making bread!

Lisa

First of all, it's WAY better to grind the grains fresh. If you don't have a mill or a blender that will do it, sometimes the store where you buy the grains will have one for people to use. Flours from whole grain should be used ASAP, or frozen until used.

I don't soak anything. I do add my cracked grains at the start, and maybe letting them soak in moisture during the sponge stage keeps them from damaging the gluten strands as Grainlady described. If, though, you want to keep seeds whole, and you're using an electric mixer, it's better to add those near the end, I think, so that they don't get broken up. I found that to be true of nuts. If I added them too early, sometimes they were broken into smaller pieces than I wanted in certain types of bread.

I have added rolled oats that we use for oatmeal to bread. But now thanks to Grainlady's helpful information, I hope to get a roller/flaker and make my own from oats.

There was another discussion on these types of things that I'm linking below.

Here is a link that might be useful: previous thread on grains you might find helpful

I do have a blender that would probably do the job - I don't know if I'd make enough to make it worthwhile to order in bulk, however. I do always store my flour in my freezer tho. I'm in the city (Boston) so I don't know how much luck I'd have finding anything around here other than small packages they sell at places like Whole Foods, where I got all my organic flours, or maybe Trader Joe's.

I think I'll experiment with a few different breads and then when I gain some experience, I might get a bit deeper into milling my own.

I've really gotten tired of everything being loaded with chemicals and processed and if I can make something myself using organic products, or grow it myself that way I know I've used organic fertilizers, etc., I'd feel much better. Between hormones and antibiotics and chemicals and everything in the news about e. coli and salmonella - I wish I had the time to make everything from scratch and grow all my veggies! The prices or organics make them almost useless to me unless I find a deal! You people that raise your own beef, keep your own chickens, etc. - wow, I give you guys a lot of credit! It must be so satisfying to not have to depend on the big guys who aren't as fussy about the "quality" of their product as you people are!

Thanks for the link - you guys are amazing doing all that work on your own, and being a city girl, I'm learning a lot! I didn't know there were diffent types of wheat and they had different uses! Fascinating!

Lisa

Oh, how I wish I could be one of those people with beef and chickens, too! At least making bread is easier and takes less room! ;-)

There are just so many different ways to make multi-grain breads, and several different bread-making methods to consider. The neat thing about bread is that it isn't just one thing...

I'd also have to ecco rhome410 about milling your own grains/seeds/beans if you are this interested in the healthy aspect of it. It's THE only way to get the most available nutrition. It will also save you a lot of money - especially if you make all your breads - which I do. The price of grains is typically much lower than purchasing the flours.

Breadmaking is full of little "rules", along with all the exceptions to the "rules". Knowing the rules will help you troubleshoot the old question, "WHAT HAPPENED?". In fact, "Artisan Bread in 5-Minutes a Day" is a complete contradiction to generally held bread science.

A general rule: Adding anything sharp (DRY multi-grain cereal blends, nuts, seeds, flakes I mill at home, etc.) at the BEGINNING of mixing/kneading can result in the gluten strands being cut by the these things. As rhome410 said, she uses a sponge method (soaks a portion of the liquid/flour/yeast, so the dry chopped grains soak up hydration during the sponge. Other recipes will have you add hot water to these grain mixtures to soften them. There are ALWAYS options in the world of bread. I like the added "crunch", so I generally add them late in the kneading.

Home-milled flakes are just smashed grains, and they are thicker than commercial old-fashioned oatmeal. Commercial oatmeal is tempered with steam to soften the grain, then it's run through the roller mill. When you make your own flakes you don't temper the grain - you mill it dry. I have a bread recipe that uses steel-cut oats. I'll try to find and post it. You can also make the steel-cut oats into oatmeal and make the recipe I've linked below for Cooked Oatmeal Scones.

When making breads by hand I add the gluten-containing flour to the liquids FIRST, and beat the dickens out of that mixture to develop the gluten while the mixture is still in the bowl (adding flour a little at a time and mixing it thoroughly with a Danish Dough Whisk). Then I'll add any non- or low-gluten flour. They don't require the work that gluten-development in wheat flour does. Non- or low-gluten flours just needs to be incorporated.

Adding oatmeal is great. If the recipe has you add it early in the process, it will be pulvarized and well-incorporated by the time the loaf is done. You'll have little evidence of it, unless you add some to the top of the loaf just before you bake it. If you add too much oatmeal or oat flour, the bread will be moist, doughy and crumbly.

You can also make your own oat flour by running oatmeal through a blender or food processor until it's flour. I make oat flour by milling oat groats. I wouldn't add any more than 20% oat flour to a bread recipe or you'll compromise the texture and crumb.

Different grain flours contribute different textures to breads.

Dough that has rye flour in it is characteristicly sticky. People tend to continue to add flour to overcome the stickiness and often add too much and end up with a dry dough and a "brick" for a loaf of rye bread. I use rye for all kinds of things, not just breads. It's an under-used flour in my books. It works well in baked goods that don't need a lot of gluten development - like quick breads and cookies.

I suspect the "When Pigs Fly" - seven grain and pumpkin seed bread is made mainly with bleached or unbleached bread flour (possibly whole wheat flour) with a portion being either 7-Grain flour, or 7-Grain chopped grain mixture. It comes both ways. Pumpkin seeds can be whole/chopped/pulvarized.

I tend to mill sesame seeds (flax as well) I add to breads. (I add flaxmeal to EVERYTHING!) You don't get any of the nutrition unless they are cracked - either masticating or milling them. It's just easier to mill them to assure they are easy to digest.

Bob's Red Mill has a 10-grain flour available. You have to be careful using these multi-grain/seed/bean flour combinations because they include non-gluten and low-gluten ingredients. You need a major portion of the flour to contain gluten (flour derived from wheat) and only a small percentage to be from non- or low-gluten flours, or the bread won't rise like you are accustomed to when you make white bread.

I don't add WHOLE grains in the form of a wheat berry or an oat groat. They are added either by being milled into flour, coarsely chopped, flakes or sprouts.

I like to add whole amaranth seeds to quick breads as an easy addition. They look like golden poppy seeds and add a lot of great nutrition and crunch. I also add amaranth flour to breads. I mill it in a seed mill. This particular mill does those tiny seeds and oily seeds like poppy seeds, sesame seeds, flax, teeny-tiny Tef and amaranth, etc. I can easily substitute 1/2 c. of the flour in the recipe with 1/2 a cup of amaranth flour without too much trouble or changes in the bread texture. That's another way to get multi-grain breads.

I use quinoa in cooking, not baking. Quinoa is coated with saponin and you have to wash it very well before using it or it's bitter-tasting. So if you want to mill it into flour you have to wash it and then dry it before you mill it. Not worth the bother in my books. You chance messing your mill up if the grain isn't completely dry when you mill it. Lots of cooked cereals, like cooked quinoa, can be added to bread recipes.

I'd also suggest following recipes that include multiple grain mixtures or grain flours in them, before striking out on your own and making your own substitutions.

I'd suggest as much studying as you do baking. You can probably get these books at your local library, or have them get them through Inter-Library Loan.

- The first 100 pages of "CookWise" by Shirley O. Corriher. That covers a lot of what you need to know about making bread in general.

- "The Splendid Grain" by Rebecca Wood. It explains grains and how they are used. For instance, you can make your own rice flour in a coffee/spice mill, but which rice is best for baking? Short- and medium-grain rice are best for baking. Long-grain rice is best for dredging or thickening. Short- and medium-grain rice flour can be used for dredging/thickening, as well as baking.

-"The Pleasure of Whole-Grain Breads" - by Beth Hensperger

Other little-known rules, like adding ascorbic acid powder to recipes for yeast bread that contain whole wheat flour or wheat germ. Ascorbic acid powder counteracts the negative effects of Glutathione (found in the wheat germ), which breaks the gluten bonds - which accounts for so many short-squatty loaves of 100% whole wheat bread. Ascorbic acid (1/8-t. per loaf) helps prevent gluten bonds from breaking down, helps sustain the leavening during baking (more oven spring), and helps promote yeast growth.

I've been studying bread science, milling, and grains for years, and am still learning all the time. Welcome to the club...

-Grainlady

Here is a link that might be useful: COOKED Oatmeal Scones

I've copied and am saving a lot of the info everyone's given in this thread - it's fascinating to me. I have a "thing" about getting into a subject whole hog, and bread making is my latest endeavor. I really didn't know half of this stuff - it's amazing to see how much you don't know about something once you really start researching it!

But I absolutely hate plain white bread - can't think of anything more boring. I love hearty breads and the more grains the better. And what little I have made of bread, I've really enjoyed. I love kneading bread by hand, altho I now have a stand mixer so to save time I'll probably use that as well.

Anyway, thanks for the info. I was hesitant about getting that 5 minute artisan bread book because it's so different than the "normal" way you make bread and I wasn't sure whether it would work for me. I'm pretty busy with work and family issues and don't imagine I'll be making bread multiple times per week, but you never know! Once I start I might find it easier and at close to $4 a loaf at times, I'd rather make my own! Thanks grainlady and everyone else. And I LOVE scones, so I will definitely be trying out that recipe! I made scones the past two weekends as a matter of fact!

One question - obviously it would be worth it if I made breads the way you do, but could I use my food processor or do I really "need" a mill? I have an old Robo Coup and that sucker can pulverize just about anything. Thanks!

Lisa

I think you could certainly try it and see if you can get the texture (coarseness/fineness) of the flour the way you like it.

The only reason I'd hesitate using a food processor for grinding grain is the sharp edges can damage the plastic. If that isn't a problem, it will probably do a fine job. Only do small quantities at a time and make sure you sift out the small stuff. Freeze anything you don't use.

I had fun with the 5-Minute Artisan Breads and can see how it would benefit busy folks. I just prefer more traditional breadmaking methods (old dog syndrome ;-).

You may also like making refrigerator breads - which will have potatoes in the recipe to help it maintain moisture in the refrigerator. You can make up a large batch of dough and then use it throughout the week for all kinds of breads. Betty Crocker probably had the most famous refrigerator bread recipe and could easily be modified using wholegrain flour and additions like multi-grain cereal blends, flaxmeal, etc.

-Grainlady

Here is a link that might be useful: Betty Crocker Refrigerator Dough