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Heating & Air Conditioning

HVAC quote - design and price comments

11 years ago

My home has a heat loss of 60k btuh and a heat gain of 40k btuh based on the manual J calc & I live in a fairly temperate climate. Electricity is significantly cheaper than gas (per btu) so we're looking at the better heat pump options. Some systems are 4 ton because 3.5 ton are not made and others are 4 ton because the installer says it's needed for the higher efficiency systems. The attached image file is a snip from my spreadsheet showing the various systems (furnace btu is what goes into the house based on AFUE). All installers are NATE cert'd and Angie's list A-rated. Comments r.e. design and price are welcome, thanks!

Greg

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Comments (11)

Greg__R
Original Author
11 years ago
let's see if this shows up any better...
Greg__R
Original Author
11 years ago
One thing to note is that the Carrier dealer only recommended an 80 AFUE gas furnace (V.Speed fan) because it would rarely be used. The other dealers were pushing the 95+ AFUE furnaces.
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The price seems good considering the amount of equipment and work to be done. Is the quote form a Carrier Factory Authorized dealer? The sizes seem reasonable for the furnaces and AC. Did the contractor do a load calculation? I assume the furnace sizes are the smallest available. Here are my general comments: - I would prefer 90%+ AFUE furnaces with mutli-speed or variable speed blowers. Installing the one in the attic is more difficult but possible. The downstairs furnace should be easy. - If you suffer from high humidity in the summer then consider 2-stage AC units. You have small sizes so it is not that critical if the units have been sized correctly. - I would rather see the linesets replaced and not flushed. This may not be possible for the unit in the attic. - I suggest getting 4 inch media filters rather than 1 inch. - Why is the contractor quoting a Carrier Comfort furnace for downstairs? Is it a size issue? - Ask if you can get the Carrier 10 year labor warranty. It is a good investment in my opinion. All parts should already receive a 10 year parts warranty.
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Thanks for the reassurances! We actually had the 2 stage furnace and 2 stage A/C installed on Friday before this weekend got hot and humid again. Took 3 guys a full 8 hours to do. Also got them to throw in the purifier and check all the exposed duct work for any leaks. Will end up at $6706 after tax credit, rebates, village permit fees, etc. At least I shouldn't have to worry about anything for the first 10 years now!
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Here is a snapshot from the Manual J calculations provided. Ar there any loop holes. Please let me know. Winter Design Conditions Outside db 5 deg F lnside db 70 deg F Design TD 65 deg F Heating Summary Structure 45387 Btuh Ducts 40289 Btuh Central vent (256 cfm) 18428 Btuh Humidification 0 Btuh Piping 0 Btuh Equipment load 104103B tuh Infiltration Method Simplified Construction quality Semi-Loose Fireplaces 2(Semi Lose) Area (ff) 2530 Volume (ft") 5060 Air chanqes/hour 1.03 EquivA. VF (cfm) 87 Heating Equipment Summary Efficiency 96,7 AFUE Heating input 120000 Btuh Heating output 113000 Btuh Temperature rise 64 "F Actual air flow 1600 cfm Air flow factor 0.019 cfm/Btuh Static pressure 0 in H2O Spacet hermostat Make Carrier Trade Infinit9v6 Model 59*N*NA12oV24**22 GAMA ID 193455
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Similar systems...I will assume you are being sized correctly...I would like to see a load calc performed to confirm this. 2 stage AC condensers with 80% eff 2 stage var speed furnaces...on the Carrier, I never like to see an Infinity furnace quoted without the Infinity controller...yes pricey... On the Trane, you should insist on a true 2 stage thermostat that controls furnace staging based on demand, not a timer or a software algorithm that will always go to high stage whether needed or not. I would ask this dealer about the evap coil they selected. I think the two options provided by Trane dealer are on the high side. Needs explanation. Ductwork is in attic? You want a thorough inspection. And I always recommend a pleated filter media cabinet regardless which system you decide on. Of course there is a pricing and warranty difference. Not sure if either brand has any applicable spring rebates.. And then there is the confidence factor you have with the dealers and their reputation in the location they serve. Are dealers authorized dealers? IMO
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tigerdunes
11 years ago
What is location?

What size system are you replacing?

Just to be clear, you have nat gas service to your home already?

What size living area is your home?

What is your nat gas and electric rate?

Post back.

IMO
Greg__R
Original Author
11 years ago
location: Portland, OR
Size: No existing A/C, replacing 80 AFUE furnace (90 or 92k btu on the plate, I can't remember exactly... we're ~80kbtu effective)
gas already exists @ the install location
electric: $0.15 kwh (with HP it may push into the next pricing tier of $0.30 kwh)
gas: Currently $0.45 / therm; 10yr high is $0.85/therm
david_cary
11 years ago
Umm... Your electricity is significantly more expensive than NG so a heat pump looks like a horrible idea (and I rarely say that).
Greg__R
Original Author
11 years ago
My apologies... I looked @ the listed rates online and not at my bill. I called my wife at home and here are our current rates:

gas - $1.08 per therm. Our peak usage last winter was 250 therm over a 30 day period.
electric - 0.1035 kwh (we are currently using ~1300 kwh each month)
Greg__R
Original Author
11 years ago
Annual gas usage with 80 AFUE furnace is 1650 therm. We have 2 gas fired water heaters, one of which is rarely turned up (it drives a radiant heat system in our in-law suite).
Greg__R
Original Author
11 years ago
I did my own analysis using daily temperatures for the past few years to determine the required daily BTU for a given day. In general, it would be extremely rare for the gas furnace to turn on if I gave priority to the heat pump (~$20 to run the gas furnace for the least efficient option). If I factor in initial equipment cost, the Carrier Greenspeed becomes the least expensive option by the end of year 3.

Does anyone have any comments r.e. pricing and/or quality? Thanks!
weedmeister
11 years ago
With your climate and the Greenspeed, you might not need a furnace at all. I mean, how often does Portland get to 17F?

However, the Trane XL15 system is $2000+ cheaper, probably more so if you went with an %80 furnace. Could you compute how long it would take for the Greenspeed system's savings to make up the difference?
Greg__R
Original Author
11 years ago
weedmeister,
I calculated that the Greenspeed would save me ~$750/yr in utilities versus ~$200-$250 for the other options (HSPF=9). IMO, this is primarily due to the Greenspeed's larger heating capacity at low temperatures. I assumed a linear relationship between delta-T and heat loss in the home to reach this conclusion. So, it would take ~4 years to make up the cost differential. Also, the Carrier 16 fared better than the Trane XL15 and is similar in cost.
tigerdunes
11 years ago
If going Greenspeed which I really think is overkill. I would go all electric w/heat strip backup.

Otherwise, go conventional high eff HP with 80% eff two stg VS furnace.

Your location/climate has a mild winter heating season climate.

IMO

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