Hi Andrew,

- both machines can wash a king-size set (4 pillow cases included) plus some towels ( just a couple, if the sheets set is heavy linen, more if it is light cotton). Average euro frontloaders have had these sizes for decades. in the last 5 year have appeared 24" models with a bigger (deeper) drum e.g. this LG

http://www.lge.com/uk/home-appliances/washing-machines/LG-white-washing-machine-F1443KD.jsp

- duvets . We can wash a single-bed duvet in our FLs, no matter of its thickness.

King size (I mean double-place bed ones) fit only if very thin. Go figure I have to wash my very thick one in a coin-op 30 lb miele

Anyway miele canada prices indeed seem rather dear. The W1612 here is now 'round 1260 CAD (883 euro) :

http://www.prezzistracciati.it/index.php?content=category&idCategory=1607

As you can see, they sell LG FL1443KD at a almost same price

Haven't you any e-retailer too ? Last month my sister bought a dishwasher (upper model than the Optima but lower than La Perla) and saved round 300 euro

Thanks, that's reassuring. I wasn't sure how common king-size beds would be, though I thought it was a safe bet.

The Miele prices went up Feb 15, the W1612 went up $200 and the dryer $100. So the washer was "only" $1400 two weeks ago. :(

Miele does have some retail partners, typically they sell for retail price. We were in Corbeil (probably the lowest-end of the Miele retailers I've seen) and I noticed the price sticker was white&red Miele-issued. The salesman (not the woman I don't believe) said that they used to have some wiggle room to throw in the stacking kit free, or offer some other deal (Corbeil's schtick is to offer 3xGST, 5xGST, etc.).

Now, if he sells a Miele, he actually produces an invoice from Miele's site. And that they have no flexibility at all. I don't know if that's totally true but it seemed believable (if Miele handles order fulfillment -- delivery, installation, service, etc. -- they might want to maintain prices too, though the current sale on the full-size machines if purchased directly would seem inconsistent with that partner model).

The bottom line, if all this is true, is that there's really no competition on selling Mieles. I think the 24" LG was "3xGST" (i.e. 15%) off at Corbeil, some of the more mainstream machines were 5xGST. So the spread may be even more than the 50% extra on Miele retail prices. If I were in the US and could only buy the 3033, I wouldn't even be considering a little Miele at this point.

As an aside, I find the attitude at Corbeil (www.corbeilelectro.com is weird, they do carry some fairly high-end stuff (though not shown on the website, they offer Miele and Bosch washer/dryers, both big and small, Leibherr and other 7'x24" refrigerators, and similar), they don't seem interested in selling them.

We once walked into a Corbeil in Ottawa and asked about shallow fridges, specifically a Leibherr prominently displayed right by the window. I would have thought the appropriate response was either to try and sell it to us, or to quote the price ($6000 or $7000 or something) and then push a $3000 unit on us as better value. Instead the response we got was that no one would want to spend $7000 on a fridge and come look at the cheaper ($3000) ones! And that kind of response has happened consistently on fridges and now washers/dryers, at several stores in both Ottawa and Montreal. I don't really care if they have poor sales technique but I find it strange that it's more than just 1 store or a couple of people.

=aw

Once I found this link here on this forum.
I wish we too had such an outlet store here !

Have just checked if they still exist : they have several dishwashers but no washers at the moment

HTH
hidroman

Here is a link that might be useful: mieleunboxed.ca

Andrew,

I'm from Canada and I currently own a W1612/T7634 laundry pair.

I have no love for LG, but I can tell you that they probably outperform the Miele. Our Miele laundry pair will not wash a queen size duvet cover. It will go through the motions but not come out clean or completely dry. We have a cat and the machines will not touch the hair.

You can forget a duvet unless it is a spundown. Even then it will not dry properly.

When we bought we thought the small capacity wouldn't be a problem. I used to do 3.5 loads of laundry per week, about 3-4 hours total. Laundry now is 8+ loads per week and well over 10 hours. These machines are SLOW! 1:42 on the normal wash and 1:50 to 2 hours in the dryer.

Miele's pricing is a no-dicker-sticker. The price on the website is the price in the store.

Also, you didn't specify if you're actually in Ottawa, but if you're not you will need to be careful about service. Our machines have required a lot of service in the past 9 months (the dryer actually sheds parts while it's running!) and there is no real service available in my entire province.

The bottom line is that these Miele machines are not very good at laundry. Look elsewhere. We are.

ok, i may agree about pet hair and about this is a true european model with .... european times

Euro machines (whatever brand : WP, E'lux, Bosch.....) have default extended cycles.

But really haven't you ever used that push button "SHORT" ?? It cuts 45-50 mins on normal/cottons.

ghetterly, thanks for the additional data point. I'm actually looking for Ottawa and/or Montreal, so service shouldn't be a problem (at least not based on location, of course I can't speak to what service actually is like).

I'm surprised you're so unhappy, I don't doubt your description but it seems so at odds with what one typically sees of Miele.

"mieleunboxed.ca": thanks for the link. No washers, as you say, and I'm well out of their delivery area. I suppose I could go down and drive a pair home (5-6 hours), but I'd need to rent a van or arrange a delivery service. Too bad it's only in Toronto.

=aw

hidroman, The "Short" button on the washer doesn't do much good when you're still waiting nearly 2 hours for the dryer. My dryer doesn't have any kind of "short" button. I don't even really want it to have one. I'm more interested in a "Work correctly" button! Or a "Don't be a POS" button!

andrew, that's what Miele has been telling me for the last 9 months. "This isn't typical Miele." Yet neither the performance of my machines nor the performance of their service has improved. All I get, over and over, is: "We're so awesome, just ask us!"

Also, I suspect their "traditional" machines are of better quality and performance. The w30xx/w12xx/w19xx washers and matching dryers seem to be the ones that built Miele's reputation here in North America. The w40xx and w1612 are newer machines and are not quite as widely respected.

Hi Ghettery,

the american W10XX W12XX W19XX were americanized versions of some late nineties euro serie (e.g. W918 EU ----> W1918 USA/CAN)

The US/CAN W30XX and EU W3XXX are as new as the 16XX/17XX.

IMHO you bought the wrong machine for your needs/expectation.
Your pair is indeed part af the european series, so it's tailored on euro laundry habits.
The euro W1612 runs on 230 and is cold fill only cause it has a 2000 W internal heater. A queen size thick duvet can't tumble in a 6 kg washer, not to mention how it's crammed in that dryer.

That said calling them POS as an absolute is a nonsense.

I mean : from my point of view I could say that 48" french door fridges are a huge, useless waste of place [being them miele or whatever else].
I have 6 shopping malls within a 5 minute drive, maybe in some small canadian town the closest mall is more than 1 hour far away and this make sense to such a huge fridge

A similar situation happened here in Italy with german-made dishwashers back in early eighties.
Us italians use a shallow bowl (we call it "deep plate") for pasta, rice dishes and soups. we also use the regular flat dishes for meat dishes. So in a average meal, we use a double amount of dishes than other europeans. Italian made dishwashers had a higher clearance on the upper rack that allows inside it a double row of plates.
German machines had a upper rack just for glasses, mugs and small plates. For us it was a pain : a full lower rack, a almost empty upper one and some plates left outside that didn't fit. Since mid 80 also them started making lowerable upper racks an we had a better deal with german dishwashers. Now with tall tubs, we are super-happy

I don't argue that these machines do not fill my needs.

I'm not sure how Europeans do laundry, but my needs range from washing a single cotton t-shirt to doing a weeks worth of laundry for my fiancee and I.

A single t-shirt will come out of the dryer (nearly 4 hours after it went into the washer) wrinkled and with the edges folded/creased onto themselves. Ironing is REQUIRED.

A load of cottons will come out with the same results. Edges folded over and wrinkles all over.

A cotton duvet COVER will not wash.

Our spundown duvet washes fine, but comes out of the dryer wet in the middle because it can't tumble. I can live with that, it's easy, if a little inconvenient to hang dry it.

A load of synthetics come out generally better, but a few select items (fleece sweater, one pair of pants, etc) will come out with wrinkles set so hard we can't get them out. One fleece in particular might never be wearable again. We've steamed and steamed and it just sits there, wrinkled, quietly mocking us for buying these machines.

Any uni-tasker that isn't very good at it's task is a POS in my books.

Any washer dryer set that pulls the loops on my brand new fluffy towels is a POS in my books.

Any machine that leaves internal parts on the floor after standard operation is a POS in my books.

I'm not saying that all Miele products are junk, my dishwasher is quite good at washing and drying dishes. All I ask out of a washer and dryer is clean clothes that I can wear straight out of the dryer.

I guess we can agree on one thing,

"As long as your needs/expectations in a washer and dryer have nothing to do with washing and drying laundry, these are the machines for you!" ;)

I've got a Miele washer/dryer now...
I've had fridgidaire and LG in the past...My clothes have never been cleaner...no competition...not only was the LG unit we had a complete POS from a quality build standpoint, it didn't clean the clothes as well as the fridgidaire before than (all FL)...
The frididaire actually wan't half bad and was built pretty good as well but it didn't have a heater in it...

I've got a lot of hate for the washers/dryers you find in department stores...they are all more marketing machines than washing machines...more interested in the latest colour choice, not in the latest technology to clean your clothes and last you a lot of years...

Miele's biggest problem for me is that they lock the price now in Canada as they control the purchasing and basically they are just stupidly expensive...it's a great choice for someone who is established but not for a first time house buyer on a budget...

Ghetterly, curious that it takes you 4 hours to wash and dry a single t shirt. Our (European) model will dry full loads on low temperature in between 30 mins to an hour. The washer can take 2 hours to do a cycle, if you select a high temperature and need to wash something heavily soiled, but the short option suffices for 75% of loads and will have your laundry done in anything between 50 mins and 1.30 depending on the cycle and options selected. Everything comes out clean, well rinsed, and only wrinkled if you've overstuffed or used too high a temperature for the fabric in question. As for pet hair - well we have 2 dogs and 3 cats, and it is never an issue for us even with the honeycomb drum. Yes, we do a full load a day, but that's the norm here, and isn't a fault... more just a different method of doing laundry. These are not the sort of machine that most consumers in the US seem to want, i.e. wash everything you own in your wardrobe in an hour.

If you are experiencing excessive creasing, try the Minimum Iron cycle. It's a happy medium between a delicate wash and the strong cottons cycle. Still extracts well enough for most laundry. I can't comment about creasing in the dryer for clothing, as we only really use our dryer for towels, bedding and things we need in a hurry, everything else is dried on a clothes horse (far more economical and clothes-friendly), but there are no issues at all whenever the dryer is used. FWIW, full sets of bedding can be washed and dried in an hour and a half in most circumstances

They are certainly not perfect, nothing is nowadays, but they're far from a POS, and definitely one of the better machines we've had out of the wide established range of European washers we have available to us here.

If anything, it's not a flaw with Miele itself, but perhaps a perceived flaw with our "small" washers as a whole.

Jon

Is there a "cu. ft." capacity posted anywhere for the W1612 and T7634 (also T8003)? US site has 2.52 ft^3 for the W3033 and I assumed the W1612 would be the same. But the W1612 is 25" deep to the W3033's 22.5" deep, so I'm wondering if there's a difference in capacity.

Thanks!
=aw

Ahh, that's a major difference in how we do laundry. Most (everyone) people I know save up their laundry and do it all on one day, known as "Laundry day!" The machines otherwise just sit idle. If you're doing 1 load every day, you could just put it in and go about your business until it's done and you wouldn't really notice the cycle length.

Just a different approach to a common problem.

Here you pretty much have to dry everything in the dryer because of the temperature outside. Our houses are built so tight that any excess humidity either has to by mechanically removed or it breeds mold. Triple pane windows, 6-12" thick walls with fibreglass or foam insulation, 12-24" of insulation in the attic, etc. We have a dehumidifier for the summer months. Many newer houses here have air-to-air heat exchangers to provide fresh air year round without exhausting large amounts of heat. The most popular brand of HRV (hear recover ventilator) was actually founded in my city many years ago.

Perhaps Miele directs more R&D Euros into the washers than the matching dryers? I understand that many Euro households don't even have a dryer. You would never see that here. Canadian laundry requires a washer and a dryer, period. Most of our quality problems surround the dryer. Nine months in and we're already on our second one and it's not going to last.

Lip2000, I don't have a problem with the price of a Miele as long as they last. I'm sick of the "disposable" appliance culture here in North America. If our washer and dryer actually made it to 20 years like Miele suggests they should, they would be far cheaper than 10 2-year Kenmores. My problem is that they don't inspire confidence when parts fall out.

All in all, Miele has failed us on every measurable:

Performance
Build quality
Service

@ Andrew : yes, they're the same (in metric, 53 cubic decimetres or litres).

Don't trust outer dimensions.
Both my machines have the same size of the W3033, anyway they are rated 5 Kg and have a smaller drum (48 litres)

Current Miele toploaders are 18" wide but their drum is 49 litres like my machines

Here is a link that might be useful: Miele Toploaders (en français)

If dryers were a niche product would you ever think they have 35 different model on catalogue ?

Winters as yours are quite common in Europe too

Here is a link that might be useful: Miele Dryers

If they actually made only POS would you ever think they make also commercial machines for surgery tools, electronic industry, dental care and commercial laundries ?

If your machine is *wrong* this doesn't mean that every miele machine is a POS.
I agree that miele service in North America is not as reliable as the european counterpart.
Anyway some of your complaints are baffling, -one of all- that one about softener dispenser lid.
Or the size complaint : why didn't you get the W4840 ??

Here is a link that might be useful: Miele Professional

Thanks, I'll apply the US value from the 3033 to the 1612. Is the 53L value documented anywhere?

But 53L = 1.87167734 cubic feet according to google (I love using google for this). How does it get to be 2.52?

I've actually noticed this in the specs for some other machines, I can only find it in the Blomberg manual right now, it says capacity is 2.35ft^3 but then in the manual 1.70ft^3 (48L). It could just be a typo but I'm sure I saw it elsewhere too. Any idea why the difference?

Thanks!
=aw

I do not understand why it would take so long to dry your laundry. I have found my Miele to be exceptional! Maybe you should check your dryer vent to make certain it is not clogged as well as the lint filter. As for washing, I use the wool cycle with warm water for all lightly soiled clothing (most of our laundry) and it takes only 48 minutes. I do use the longer cycles for towels and whites as well as a hot cycle for any darks that have grease/oil stains, I am amazed at how quickly I can get many loads of laundry done!

Until some years ago they always pointed out drum size in specification data sheets. Now they do it only for commercial machinery.

on miele.fr they state

- 54 litres/cubic decimetres for 6 Kg series as W16XX, W17XX, W3XXX, W4XXX -not W48XX-

- 59.5 dm^3 for 7 Kg series as W5XXX -not W59XX- and W6XXX. They still don't make any statement about the latest 8 Kg serie W59XX

As for discrepancies between cu. ft data, I guess that's due to the two different measurement standards you' ve in North America : one is the International Electrotechnical Commission (I.E.C.) .... but forgot about the other one

Here is a link that might be useful: data source

IMHO, another bit of disappointing news about the 24" LG washer(WM1355HW) is the matching dryer is Ventless/ condensing. NO vented dryer options with this washer? Correct me if I'm wrong.
Thanks
john

You're right, here are two threads discussing those machines:

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/laundry/msg0323485026913.html?6

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/laundry/msg031517544485.html?9

=aw