I haven't had a TL for a decade. However, on the TL I always had to spin the dial and run it thru another rinse for certain clothes. The extra rinse was for white underwear or something where I used a lot of bleach. If I didn't someone in the family would get a rash, usually around the waist.

When I got my first FL I did an additional rinse, again just for certain clothes. With my new FL, I've been experimenting with no extra rinse. So far no rash issues. But I've also changed soaps, so maybe the soap is rinsing cleaner.

My new Samsung washer has buttons for extra wash and rinse. Even my old FL had a button for extra rinse. So other than adding more minutes to the cycle, there's nothing complicated in order to make it do the extra cycle.

The amount of water is not the only variable. The number of rinses is actually much more important. Several small rinses are a lot more effective than one deep fill rinse. When the pump of our old TL dies we saw (and had to manually scoop out) the rinse water. It was sudsy and dirty. Nasty to think that some of that stayed in the clothes...

Another major factor is the spin speed. The faster the spin that follows the wash cycle, the smaller the amount of detergent left in the clothes (before the rinse even starts). A FL does at least two rinses by default, some European models still do three. Before and after the rinse cycles, the washer spins the clothes very fast. You can use an extra rinse if you think it is necessary. It just adds about 4 gallons of water while a TL uses about 25 for a deep fill. Using "free and clear" detergents should also help when you have skin issues.

I think a FL (when used correctly) cleans and rinses a lot better than traditional TLs. Hope this helps.

I think the multiple low-fill rinses, with a spin in between them, in a front loader are more effective than one deep rinse in an agitator washer. Our front loader has three rinses on a normal cycle, and you can add one more if you like (and it is still using less water than the top loader did). I could smell the detergent on the clothes out of our old top loader, but I don't smell detergent on clothes out of the front loader...just clean.

I related my experience in the "I'm not sure I like my FL washer" thread.

In short, I found the rinsing performance dismal if I used adequate detergent.

Sometimes you need to tune-out people who advocate products for one reason or another and just use the common sense that is speaking to you already.

I've not used a frontloader specifically, but I have used two HE toploaders. A Neptune TL which is a toploader that tumbles the clothes in a very small pool of water, and currently a Whirlpool Calypso. No rinse trouble with either, and I do use a full dose of HE detergent ... although I will say that the Calypso does rinse more thoroughly than the Neppy TL.

My neighbor has a Neptune frontloader, bought new a couple years ago just before the original-style Neptunes were taken off the market. I've not heard any mention of rinsing trouble. I'm sure I would have heard if there was any. I rebuilt a Neptune dryer for him (he got it via FreeCycle), which triggered him getting the matching washer while it was still available. He went to the frontloader from a 1985 Whirlpool toploader.

One of my friends has a Kenmore HE3. She tends toward skin allergies, and knows of my interest in washers, so I probably would have heard of any problems.

Of course, these examples may not be indicative of the current HE machines, either frontloader or toploader.

curiousshopper, I'm sorry you had an FL washer that was poorly designed, defective, or improperly installed. What brand and model was it, and from what year? Surely you don't think your bad experience means that no one, from here on, should ever buy an FL washer. Seems like that's what you're saying, with your advice to tune-out those of us who like their FL.

The link posted by mizjiff is interesting. But I don't know what the rinse performance scores mean. 65% of what? What is a "passing" score? Are these the scores for default rinsing, or with optional additional rinsing?

Personally, now that I have an FL, I realize that the stuff coming out of my old agitator TL(s) wasn't really clean at all. I wouldn't want to go back.

My BF suffers from dermatitis and is very sensitive to detergents. I have LG fl and mostly wash on sanitary and hot cycles. I always use extra rinse and another rinse and spin. I use CS and Persil, baking soda and splash of vinegar in final rinse. He has no problem. He did have reaction to the CS but when I scalled down, the laundry wasn't clean so I just rinse and rinse and rinse. I really don't care if it takes few extra gallons. Our health is more important.So mother Earth should understand, besides even w/ all that extra rinsing it really doesn't use that much water.
I would recommend however, buy washer w/ highest possible spin speed. It will extract more stuff out. I also have tiny european w/d combo and see the difference in the spin and extraction. It is much faster and does better job extracting than the big LG.

Thank you everyone for your responses! I had the same question as SuburbanMD: how do you analyze the rinsing performance percentages. And if you're only using 1 tbsp of detergent, can you even tell a difference between a washer with 90% rinsing performance vs one with a 70% performance?

But, based on your answers, I think I will try a FL and simply add another rinse cycle. Thanks again for your input!

curiousshopper wrote: "Sometimes you need to tune-out people who advocate products for one reason or another and just use the common sense that is speaking to you already."

I think I have enough common sense and I have used both FLs and TLs for more than a year. If I advocate any product over another, it is my honest advice from my personal experience as well as my scientific knowlege. I have worked in chemistry labs and it is a proven fact that several small rinses are more effective than one or two large ones. I doubt that you ever had to extract miniscule amounts of chemical or biochemical substances. You definitely want to avoid large amounts of solvents.

My common sense tells me to tune out people who attack or insult others...

Czechchick: What is CS? Thanks!

For the Million dollar question on what is CS. My answer would be CS=Charlie's Soap and that is my final answer.

There will never be a winner in the front vs top load wars. There will be peace in the Middle East and the Vikings will win the Super Bowl long before people agree on them. And there will be frost warnings in hell before some folks will admit that their machine is not necessarily the perfect one for me. I gave up hoping for that resolution long ago. One thing that always happens is someone will come up with exaggerations either way. I stand by my opinion and admit it's an opinion, that a PROPERLY USED top loader will get your clothes clean as will a PROPERLY USED front loader. Reminds me of my Dad who fought getting a color tv. "I'd rather watch a GOOD black & white than a BAD color tv!" I'd always respond that I'd rather watch a GOOD COLOR tv than a BAD black & white! There seems to always be some similar theories thrown out.

There's differences in using the two technologies it seems. It also sesms that sometimes someone can legitimately have trouble with a type of machine and find it's not for them. Often when people change technology they learn a lot more about washing clothes too. If they took that knowledge back to the prior technology, I'd suspect a dramatic improvement.

Allergies and sensitivities are personal things. I get a kick out of seeing people who could wear fiberglass insulation for underwear who come out swinging when someone mentions that they're having trouble or concerns with rinsing. When you don't have a skin sensitivity, you wouldn't know. And if you or I don't have the same sensitivities it's back to an apples vs oranges comparison.

I'm sensitive to a lot of detergents. I found a brand that was OK for 2-1/2 bottles worth, then all of a sudden I itched like crazy from it. Tried a brand that bothered me 20 years ago but it doesn't bother me now. Extra rinses can help with sensitivities but not always. And btw, my rinse water goes clear when I dose the load properly, (and when I don't, I'm not so arrogant as to blame the machine, or worse, the DETERGENT! LOL) and I have one of those dreaded top loaders that strike fear into the hearts of so many. Again, I laugh when people overdose on a top load, go to a front load, decrease the doseage after a few suds locks then talk about how the top load never rinsed well! LOL

Machines vary, even the same model. Water varies, fabric varies, allergies vary and more. My suggestion is to be sure that whatever machine you get has at least one extra rinse available for you, if for no other reason than your own peace of mind. And good luck being able to separate speculation, theory, conjecture and personal bias from fact. I do understand your frustration. I'm experiencing some myself.

cynic,
yes, I admiot that I used a LOT more detergent in our old TL than I use with a FL. I have tried to use less, but the clothes wouldn't be getting clean. I don't think it is arrogant to complain about a washer that uses 50 gallons of water, huge amounts of detergent and additives and still didn't clean all that well. I honestly hated that washer. I will also admit that it was about the cheapest TL we could find and that there are better performing ones out there.

It is true that the rinsing performance of FLs suffers from extreme cutbacks on water usage. They have reached the absolute minimum usage and if you have skin sensitivities I would recommend using the extra rinse option. I think it is unfortunate that the user doesn't have the option to increase the amount of water used at least within certain limits. I know for a fact though that one huge (deep fill) rinse is not the answer.

Hi everyone,
So, I got the Miele 4840 front loader and I'm happy with the performance so far. I programmed it to Maximum Water Level, Water Plus/Extra Rinse, and yes on Rinse Process. The amount of water used isn't nearly as much as our old top loader, but I'm happy with the rinsing performance. I use 2 Tbsp liquid HE detergent, I can see a few suds, but it seems to rinse out fine.
Thank you everyone for your advice!

Congratulations on the new Miele, mizjiff. I have the same model, am still very happy with it five months later. My rinse performance is fine, using the factory settings, and hardly ever using even the Sensitive option. Did you try it with the factory settings? By the way, what does the Rinse Process setting do?

We use Sears Free powder, the recommended full scoop for full loads, and somewhat less for smaller loads. Having read in the manual that too little detergent can cause mineral deposits on the heating element (if your water contains minerals), it doesn't seem like a good idea to cut the detergent dose across the board. Also, when you consider that detergents contain an ingredient to neutralize chlorine in the water, it stands to reason that a too-small dose could allow fading (if your water has chlorine; mine doesn't).

I trust you're aware that the W4840 doesn't use the heater on the Normal cycle. IMO this cycle is therefore useless. The Custom cycle is pretty much the same, but does use the heater as needed for all wash temperatures.

Suburbanmd: Not sure yet what Rinse Process does. Everytime I think I'm gonna stay to watch the whole wash cycle, I inevitably have something else to do and walk away. I was going to try with and without Rinse Process to see if I noticed a difference. Then I thought maybe I'd just call Miele and ask them. And if they give me a hard time about it, I'd probably ask them why they want to withhold information about their own machines.

I use the Ecos liquid detergent from Costco. I use the amount as directed on the label and its been fine. As I write, I'm trying the Express wash for a smaller load. I used 1 tbsp instead of 2 and I noticed there were no suds. Its hard to judge when I'm using too much or too little. Should I see a tiny bit of suds? On a normal load with 2 tbsp, I see a few suds. So far, I'm just going by smell. None of my loads have turned out smelly, so I assume I'm using enough detergent.

Can you explain about the normal cycle and no heater? you mean its just the cold water straight out of the tap?

Do you have vibration issues on your washer? Yes, I read all about leveling on gardenweb. On my first wash, the vibration was so powerful that, even with the laundry room door closed, the vibration scared my dog. So, I lowered the rpm to 1200 (instead of 1400) and I never use the Max spin (learned that on gardenweb). The vibration is manageable now.

Do you have the T9820 dryer? Holy cow, that thing is loud! The delivery people commented that it sounds like a jet plane taking off. They weren't kidding! But it dries clothes faster and with less heat than my old dryer, so I'm happy. And my husband was impressed that the clothes are less wrinkled. Who knew? I always thought that a dryer is a dryer.

Sorry for getting a little off topic of the original subject. I'm excited about my new washer/dryer and am eager to learn all the tips and tricks about them.

Sometimes I do get vibration on spin, but not enough to consider it an issue. The washer is on a sturdy wood floor on top of the basement. If the load is unbalanced, but not enough for the machine to drop the spin speed below Max, the cabinet next to the washer will vibrate. A loose door on the cabinet will rattle, and stuff on top of the cabinet will be shaken. I don't know if this would scare your dog :-) When it vibrates like that, we can tell, from elsewhere in the house, that the washer is spinning. But someone who isn't tuned-in to the house might not notice it.

Re sudsing: bubbles on the door glass (or on the water surface, on cycles where you can see water) aren't the same as oversudsing. Oversudsing is where so much suds are churned up, that they cushion the clothes while they're tumbling. See the drawings on page 6 (PDF page 4) in the link below.

Once a week I have to wash a bucket-full (i.e. a very small load) of rags used by our cleaning service. They're wet with a household cleaner (Spic&Span) that does generate suds. I add a half-scoop of the Sears Free powder. By the end of the wash cycle (Custom cycle, sanitize temperature, Extended option) the suds can be halfway up the door. But the machine manages to drain and rinse them, and they come out really clean for cleaning rags.

I don't have the matching dryer, still using our old one.

On any cycle including Normal, the machine tries to achieve the desired temperature by mixing water from the hot and cold faucets, like a regular washer with automatic temperature control. But if the washer is far from the water heater, the hot faucet may run cold for a while, so the fill will consist mostly of cold water. Even if the washer is next to the water heater, you can't get a Hot (140degF) fill if the water heater is set to the usual and safe 120degF. And the water, even if initially at the right temperature, will cool off during the wash cycle. For those reasons, the heater is essential for best results, and the Normal cycle is therefore IMO useless. Apparently they did it that way to get the best energy consumption figures.

Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.cleaning101.com/laundry/HE.pdf