I had a Hotpoint toploader in an apartment I was renting, and it wasn't very good at cleaning.

I guess you and I are going to have to agree to disagree with what kind of washer is best. As long as we all are happy, that's all that matters.

I owned my HE Oasis for 6 months. I have 2 small children who get dirty. I agree with washerman that they just don't clean the clothes as well as the old TL's.
looser - I did give the machine 6 months to try all cycles, temps, ways to load. It didn't meet my expectations. But...for others out there the machine is great for them. Since going back to an agitator style Cabrio with agi. I have noticed a HUGE difference.
I think that a person can only read others advice and then ultimately make their own mind up. We all want the same result...clean clothes. What might be an acceptable level of clean for one person may not be the acceptable one for another.
washerman - I too have seen some of the restorations of old TL's on other forums.WOW - they are really neat. Can't believe some of the older models out there.

Lulundave,

Ive read your posts about how well you like your Cabrio with agi.

Do you think it cleans as well as your previous agi machine?

Do you have any idea what the "hot" water temperature is when selecting a "hot" water wash cycle?

I realize that you may not need to do this but if the temperature is restricted, have you tried overriding it?

lulundave,
I don't have any personal experience with HE TLs, but I have read very good and bad comments about them. I think they have the potential to be a good compromise between traditional TLs and FLs.
I am sure that not all TLs are as bad as our Hotpoint model, but this is about all you can get for $350 or so. Some of the newer agitator TLs are supposed to perform worse than the old ones because they have to meet the stricter energy regulations.
I can respect that you gave the Oasis 6 months to try it out and then switched back to a traditional TL.
I know from personal experience that there are FLs out there that perform much better than our current TL. We should not have any vibration issues, so I will go for a FL washer.

Washerman8,
yes, we can agree to disagree. I had a good time "talking" to you...:-)

lulundave,
I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to get a Montgomery Wards or Norge 20lb capacity set. I remember as a child seeing these in Montgomery Wards and said to myself when I get older, I am going to have me one of these sets and damn if Montgomery Wards didn't go out of business.

I seen a Norge set pop up on ebay but I wasn't about to drive halfway across the country to get one; but I was so tempted.

This is the only set I would give up my SpeedQueens for. Now they were some excellent washers and dryers.

Looser and others,

To some extent (some say to a huge extent) we are all conditioned by our "formative growing up" experiences so since front loaders are almost the only choice in Europe - I can certainly understand your preference for and comfort level with using them.

Assuming that you do most or perhaps all of the laundry in your household, my advice to your husband is to see to it that you get the kind of machine that you are comfortable with and that you want to use as they say when "mom" is happy the whole house is much happier when she isnt well Ill just stop there LOL.

In many ways today we are back to the 50s there are many more choices in the laundry aisle than in recent past years top loading agitator machines, HE top loaders and of course front loaders. In the 1950s agitator machines were sold and front loaders as well as some pulsating washers too Im thinking of the Frigidaire models.

Then as now, I think its great for people to have choices not mandates.

In my past posts that is what I have argued for most passionately; freedom of choice.

Although we all have our own preferences, opinions and experiences, at the end of the day I cant imagine anyone here (even those who are the most passionate about their own particular choices) wanting to restrict the choices of others.

We can argue without end about the relative merits of different approaches to minimizing our individual carbon footprints but its never all or nothing; we can each have a positive impact in our own ways.

I prefer top loading agitator models and have never had a problem getting excellent results with them and unlike some people I wash some very dirty clothes in them.

So while I wouldnt rule any choice out for the future, at present Im satisfied that a front loading or other HE machine wouldnt do any better.

As you know each type of machine has its strengths and its limitations and I think that you can get excellent results using either type but you are right you do have to take the time to learn how to do laundry properly, use high quality products and take the time to learn how to properly use the technology that you are employing.

Ive used GE, Hotpoint and currently Maytag.

Did you take the time to learn how to properly use your Hotpoint? (Just kidding)

Best of luck to each of you.

Thanks for sharing everyone!

timindy - I do think it cleans as well and maybe a bit better than my old Kitchen Aid TL.
I can check on the hot watertemp for you if you like.

I am thinking it gets pretty hot though as I can see lots of condensation fogging up the control panel through the crack in the lid.

Do you want me to measure the actual temp??? Get back to me and I can definately do that for you.

WasherMan8:
Keep your Speed Queen set!

kenmore washer,
What's wrong witht the Montgomery Wards/Norge washers and dryers? With that powerful agitation and the long, fast final spin, you can't go wrong. I will admit I do not know much about these washers.

Lulundave,

I'll leave it up to you as to whether you want to measure the actual "hot" water temperature.

I was thinking that perhaps it said something specific in your operating manual.

Don't go to a lot of trouble.

The fact that you say that you are very satisfied with your new machine and say....

"I do think it cleans as well and maybe a bit better than my old Kitchen Aid TL"

and

"I am thinking it gets pretty hot though as I can see lots of condensation fogging up the control panel through the crack in the lid."

Really pretty much says it - you are satisfied with the results compared to your old machine and the hot water temperature must be hot enough (though of course not boiling) to produce the kind of condensation that you would notice.

I was curious though because my machine is a 1998 - so it's prior to Jan 2007.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

timindy - I checked the manual. It says it has Care Control Temperature Management. Whic means it electronically senses and maintains a uniform wash and rinse temp. Care Control regulates incoming hot and cold water and is automatically turned on when a cycle is selected. Care control is available with Warm-Warm, Warm-Cold, settings. The water temp in the Hot-Cold setting depends on the water temp at the water inlet faucets.
So, I guess with the condensation I see and the above statement it does do a proper Hot wash.
Take care.

"The water temp in the Hot-Cold setting depends on the water temp at the water inlet faucets."

That's the way I would read it too that the "hot" is unregulated.

Enjoy your machine and thanks again for taking the time to respond.

We got rid of our reliable old top loader Kenmore in 2001, and spent about $550 (with rebates) on a FridgeMore front loader then. The transition was seamless, both washing machines clean our clothes just fine. The new Kenmore FL has been as reliable as the top loader. No water heater, but the top loader didn't have a water heater, either.

The main differences between the old TL and the new FL are energy and water consumption savings. That's why we got rebates from our local utilities, we've saved a lot of water, electricity, and gas over the years, and used less detergent as well. The lower water use means less water heating, and the higher speed spin means less time in the gas dryer.

My feeling about all this is fine, choose whatever meets your needs and desires. But if you've had a bad experience, just present your own experiences rather than the "my (fill in the blank) washing machine didn't work right so all washing machines like it are not worth a darn". There are lots of top and front loading washing machines out there that just keep on working, doing what they're designed to do. What we hear about here are the ones that don't.

Just my thoughts.

-Roger

WasherMan8:
My grandma bought a Maytag Atlantis MAV6200 washer in 2001...She replaced the Maytag in 2004 with a Kenmore 80 series super capacity plus washer.
The Maytag worked fine for two years. After two years, the Maytag started making grinding noises during agitation and left laundry sopping wet. It also was very sensitive to off balance loads as well. It left the clothes dripping with a moderately unbalanced load. The transmission was shot. It would have cost $300 for the tranny alone. The Maytag Atlantis is a updated version of the Norge/Magic Chef 20 pound capacity washer. The Sears Kenmore washer works much better than the Maytag Atlantis. The Kenmore is also more reliable than the Maytag.

kenmorewasher,
Thanks for your response. The ones I want were manufactured in the 1970's and early 80's. The ones I am talking about had the burpilator agitator. I'm sure others who remember these particular washers know what I am talking about.

I agree with the Maytags being crap nowadays. I had purchased a Maytag SAV model topload washer about 2 years ago. It worked for about a year before it started grinding. I gave the set to a friend and now she has it in her backyard ready to dispose of it.

Whirlpool has taken over Maytag now. I see they are branding Whirlpools as Maytags and hoping to get the Maytag name back on track. Good Luck Whirlpool.

WasherMan8:
Would you consider the Speed Queen frontload washer and matching dryer?

kenmorewasher,
No I would not. I'm not a big fan of frontload washers.

WasherMan8:
Do you like the commercial frontload washers at the laundromat?

I think any TLs discussion should make a distinctions between pre/post Jan 2007. Per CR pre Jan 2007 almost any TLs washed well. This is now not true.

So if I was in the market for a TL, I would make a move quickly and try to find some older stock. I don't think things bode well for TLs make in 2007 or later.

Perhaps, like in the 70s when the emissions almost killed the performance of cars, things will impose over time - even better due to technology. But I don''t think the options to play with water level, existing detergents, agitations and spins leave at lot of things that have not been tried with existing options- always nano washing machines. LOL.

"I am German and I grew up using FLs." (Looser)

Ha, somehow I just knew it! Must have been your knowledge about FLs, I guess. :)

Okay, since someone here asked about ATC and target temps, I'll attach a document (.pdf) from servicematters.com that has some details and some gereral information about ATC on Whirpool-made washers.

HTH, Alex

There is no more environmentally friendly washing machine for me to own and keep than my 18 year old Whirlpool top loader. I have repaired it twice for about $25 for parts each time. Front loaders are so costly, they'd better get your clothing cleaner and use less water. Appliance manufacturers and their legions of advertisers will do anything to convince the public that their machines are worth buying and use "green" snob-appeal tactics to do so. But look at the machines: which ones use more material? How can that be more environmentally sound? Which ones weigh more and thus cost more to ship? But just let money decide. The difference between an average TL and an average FL can be $1,000! That's a lot of water: tens of thousands of gallons. Put that $1,000 in the bank and watch it grow. Then donate the money to your favorite environmental cause. I think the OP is very wise to look beyond the hype and see what really holds value in life. When you are on your death bed, no one will care how very clean your clothes were, but how you spend your money matters a great deal. I have better things to do with $1,000 extra for the washer and another $750 extra on the dryer. Why the average family would spend $3,000 on a FL washer and dryer is a mystery to me, but then again, I suppose that these marketers know exactly what it takes to convince the American public to drop a boat-load of money into a washer and dryer. It's nonsense.

cupofkindness,
somehow I am missing the kindness in your post. Why do you have to call it "nonsense" to spend a little more on a decent washer. I have to disagree with you on the price difference. The "average" FL is not $1,000 more than the "average" TL. I want to buy a FL for about $1,000 (Bosch Nexxt 500). The cheapest TLs are about $350. No thanks, we have one of those right now and it sucks! To get a decent TL you'd have to pay quite a bit more and the price difference will be no more than $500.

I don't care what marketing people say to influence public opinion. I know from personal experience that I prefer FLs. By the way, they are cheaper in Germany than they are here, so I guess it is all a matter of mass production...
FLs do not have that much more material, they contain heavy concrete blocks to stabilize them during the high spin speed. Most of the materials of washers and other appliances could be recycled. I know that recycling isn't too popular in the U.S. but it would be more environmentally friendly than dumping everything in huge landfills. That's a different issue though.

How can it be good for the environment to waste lots of water and energy to get clothes somewhat clean and then throwing away the things that are still stained or damaged from being wrapped around the agitator?

It is a personal decision how people spend their money. I don't know why some poeple spend a lot of money for fancy cars or designer clothes. It is up to them and I don't have the right to judge about them or call it nonsense. People have different priorities and it is okay that way.

whirlpooltrainee,
yes, I have used FLs for a long time. I find it interesting how many people think that they are new and mysterious. They have been around for a long time in Germany and most of the problems that are disussed on these forums are not an issue there. Many of them last 15 years or longer without any maintenance issues. We have used our TL for less than three yeatrs (and it was in storage for 2.5 years) and it already makes a grinding noise on larger loads. It is not really well built.
How do you think the new Whirlpool FLs compare to the new TLs regarding quality and performance?

I feel compelled to chime in here too...especially to cupofkindness. I have used both types of machines, TL and FL. I presently own a Duet 9300 washer and 9250 dryer.

My MAIN reason, before all the energy efficiency and/or environmental reasons for buying these machines was to make life easier for ME and MY family.

Firstly, I bought them to replace the 30 year-old machines that were in the house we purchased last year (owned by an 82 year old widower).

Secondly, I am a full-time working married mother of children ages 5 and 2 1/2. My husband is a firefighter who does landscaping as a side job. With ALL those things factored in, you can imagine I have an incredible load of wash that is also very challenging to get clean. My first and foremost reason for the front loader was to save me time in doing my laundry. Working full time, I do not have a lot of time at home to do laundry. I prefer to spend the free time I DO have with my family. That being said, I can cut my wash time literally in half. I normally used to do between 8-12 loads per week, which is now down to about 5-6.

Thirdly, I own a few queen size comforters and quilts. Without this washer/dryer, I would have to cart them to the laundromat to wash them, again, cutting in to my family time which I value immensely. My old TL (which was only 4+ years old) chewed up 3 of my son's twin comforters. How is that saving money?

My FL's get my laundry clean, are easy to use, and have been an absolute joy to use in the 7 months that I've had them.

With all these factors, I made the decision that this was the best lifestyle choice for ME and MY family. No marketing ploys nor compensation made my decision to buy these machines.

I think you have generalized your opinions and should really look at the BIGGER picture before stating such a strong opinion and before knowing everyone's own personal reasons for their purchases.

Buy a FLer from a store near you that gives good service. If there is any problem with it the first year the store will replace it. Lowes has a good reputation for service, Sears does not. Do not put it on a pedestal. Use HE detergent. Use a hand towel to dry off the door and the boot after washing a load.

I have had many top loaders and several front loaders over the years. I have found there to be as many service problems with the TLers as with the FLers. The last FLer I bought had terrible vibration problems and my comments are on this forum. But when the pedestal was removed, the vibration problems went away. Other than that vibration problem I have had no service problems with my TLers for over 10 years, when I bought my first one. I currently have two TLers in different houses that do not work and need repair.

Once I started using a FLer I could never go back, without complaining, to using a TLer. We got one with a house we bought a few years ago. I could not wait to get rid of it. It was noisy and it vibrated and I could imaging how much it was destroying my clothes every time they were washed. With the new TLer, not on a pedestal, those problems are gone. Buy a good TLer from a good local store, perhaps Lowes if there is one near you.

fivefootzero:

I would imagine that in order to pay for FLs you may well have to be a working mother and have a husband who works two jobs. And this is my point. There is always a better way of doing something, it's just a matter of how much you want to spend on the little conveniences that make life easier, whether it's pizza-to-go or a high-tech FL washer. In your case, you are trading the time you spend working away from your home with the time you spend inside the house doing things like laundry, but at least your young children are nearby when you are doing the wash. TL washers and dryers can be obtained for a fraction of the cost of FLs. I have seven children, so I do my fair share of laundry as well. My only point is that in the grand scheme of money management, FLs seem to be a poor investment. People shop sales and clip coupons, but then go off of the deep end when it comes to major purchases, such as laundry equipment. My washer gets my families laundry clean too, it is bothersome to hear that some people think FLs are superior. Why would I settle for anything less than clean laundry?

Looser:

Though I'm very sorry that you purchased a TL lemon, one can easily buy a decent TL washer for less than half of the cost of an inexpensive front loader. And where do they insert the concrete blocks into the machines? In the retail store or the factory? Those blocks add to the shipping costs of the machines. I'd much rather use up water than fuel -- water will eventually recycle, but once fuel is burned, it's gone forever. I have never had a garment damaged from being wrapped around an agitator and staining is not an issue either. These reasons sound like they were written by an advertising executive. None of them reflect my 18 years of experience with a TL washer.

And of course it's a personal decision how people spend their own money. But there is nothing unkind about pointing out the fact that the $1,000 one spends on a washer versus $500 is $500 less they have to save or invest.

I am looking at the bigger picture. Money you spend today on high priced luxury appliances is lost forever and can only be recovered by more work, more time at a job you may or may not like, more time away from your family, more time on the treadmill. The choice is yours.

cupofkindness,
it is not unkind to point out facts, but it is just your opinion that a FL is a poor investment. Not everybody has to share that point of view. It is insulting to call the choice of others "nonsense". Why do you have a problem with people spending more money on a washer than you do. If you are happy with your TL you shouldn't care what other people think of them. There are also people who dislike FLs for other reasons than just the price. They are entitled to their opinion as well.

I personally do not want to use a TL anymore. I don't think it was a lemon. It was about the cheapest TL we could get at that time, it doesn't have many temperature or cycle options at all. It uses a bunch of water for mediocre results. Even if a FL doesn't wash any better it at least does it with less water.

Your energy calculation is not truely accurate either. The shipping of the washer is normally a one-time occurrence whereas a TL uses a lot more water and the energy (gas or electricity) to warm up that water throughout its lifetime. That easily adds up to a lot more damage to the environment. There are studies in Germany which concluded that the use of a washer for close to 90% of resources and just a little over 10% are caused by the use of construction materials and the assembly and shipping of the washer (based on a lifetime of roughly 8 years).

I don't think it is a smart investment to have higher utility bills. Maybe you just use cold water to do your laundry, but I don't. We will move to Texas and electricity is expensive there. Our furnace and water heater are electric, so warm or hot washes have an effect on the electric bill. The money you spend on utility bills is also lost forever and you have to work for it...

We just have one kid so we don't have to have several incomes to pay for appliances. I understand that in your situation you can't or don't want to spend that much money. It all comes down to different priorities. I don't know why you make the purchase of washers and dryers such a big deal. People spend much more money on other things like cars, houses, hobbies, vacations and so on. I don't think that a washer or dryer is a huge investment. We just bought a house and that one is a real long-term investment. It is the only thing we can't just pay cash for.

Sorry about the double posting.

cupofkindness:

Did it ever occur to you that I worked before I had the FL? I work because I enjoy what I do, not because I feel the need to buy expensive appliances. And anybody with 1/2 a brain knows that a poor fireman is a lazy one. My husband works 2 jobs because being a firefighter, he CAN. Working at the firehouse a total of 8 24-hour shifts a month affords him to be home with the children more and get a little bit more money in the college funds than the average Joe.

Again, get your facts straight before you pass judgement.

one can easily buy a decent TL washer for less than half of the cost of an inexpensive front loader.

Maybe the prices are different where you live, but here's what I see: The lowest-priced front-loader at Sears is their Kenmore 3.1 cubic foot front-loader (the "FriGEmore") -- $599 till Saturday; $649 thereafter. It's a solid machine, as dozens of posters here and thousands of users will attest.

The cheapest top-loader Sears sells is a Kenmore for $299 (regularly $319) that offers essentially the same size tub; only two temps (FriGEmore offers four); two cycles (the FriGEmore has six); no dispensers for any cleaning liquids/powders; a "spreckle" finish tub (not SS like the FriGEmore); and isn't even Energy Star rated (like the FriGEmore) (it also uses twice the electricity the FriGEmore does).

So, yeah, the TL is half the price of the FL if you go purely by the bottom line of initial purchase cost (nevermind the total cost of operation of a machine that swigs electricity and water at a rate much higher than the FriGEmore). Beyond that, however, there are many additional features in the FriGEmore that make it a much better machine than Sears' loss-leader -- which puts the lie to the idea that a decent TL (which the $299 model is not) is "less than half" the price of the most inexpensive FL.

Unless you can show us different figures.

"Many of them last 15 years or longer without any maintenance issues. []
How do you think the new Whirlpool FLs compare to the new TLs regarding quality and performance?"

Well, it all depends I guess. Stiftung Warentest, our leading consumer magazine, tested Euro FLs a couple of months ago. Part of their testing routine is the Durability Test. Its supposed to simulate using the washer for 11 years or the equivalent of up to 1870 cycles (IM NOT SURE ABOUT THIS NUMBER Ill check when Im home). The result was that most washers did not need maintenance. All the Miele, Bosch/Siemens and Electrolux brands came out Very Good. LG and Samsung had some problems. Ariston failed the durability test as usual. Bauknecht (owned by Whirlpool) came out Good or Very Good, too this time. Last time, Bauknecht must have had some problems with assembly / quality control (I GUESS), which caused the washers tested to self-destruct: during the durability test, the drums on all three washer started touching the heating element. This caused the element to fail (because water entered it) and placed a possible safety risk as (in the worst-case-scenario) one could suffer a serious electric shock (the element runs on 230 V / 2000W+), if the back of the machine was touched.
One has to keep in mind though that these washers are not like the ones sold in the US. Our LG, Samsung, E-Lux and B/S/H models are smaller (typical European) machines so one cant apply the test results to the larger US machines one-to-one.

To answer the performance question Ill first say that I dont work for Whirlpool. I used to be what I think is called a CO_OP at the Bauknecht factory here in Germany for some time. Development & Engineering Department to be precise. I also cant make personal comments about the quality of either current US TL or FL washer because I havent been to the US for quite some time. All I can say is that I heard ( > automaticwasher.org) that the Whirlpool design for their TL washers seems to be very reliable or at least one of the most reliable ones available today. Personally, Id probably also consider Speed Queen (due to their commercial background) if one wants a long-lasting washer. The only negative thing (besides generally lower water levels and lukewarm "Hot" temps) Ive heard (again > aw.org) is people complaining about the fast-stroke agitation, hence some Kenmore-branded machines were named Shred-more. I dont know if the current models still have that super-fast agitation, though.

As far as the Cabrios (and all the siblings) are concerned: theyre (mostly) based on Fisher & Paykels design, which appears to be very reliable, too. If one browses through the .pfd documents openly available from servicematter.com youll see that theres also a file referring to the infamous F51 error code. Ill attach the document.

As far as Whirlpools FL are concerned Well, the ones that are built in Germany should in theory be very good, because Bauknecht has decades of experience with FL technology. However, one has to remember that these machines are built to WP specification after all, so I wont make the claim that all the WP front loader are "good" or "reliable" per se. They seem to be selling very well, though so it seems as if Whirlpool / Bauknecht did a good job engineering these machines. My personal grief with these machines is based on my cultural background. Im used to AT LEAST three rinses vs. the two you get by default on a US washer. Id ALWAYS use Extra Rinse. Im also used to washers with powerful internal heaters thatll let me set AND MAINTAIN the exact temperature I want. And Im used to longer wash cycles definitely longer than 45 or so minutes. But as I said, this is because Im from a different country and used to different habits / standards as far as laundry is concerned.

Whether one prefers TL, HE TL or FL is an individual decision. For me, its a front loader. Each technology has its benefits and drawbacks (although I DO think that conventional top loader use too much water).
So much for now Im at the university and my next lecture starts in ten minutes and I must not be late again. ;)

Alex

I know that FLers generally use less water than TLErs. I used a Bosch 500 for a couple weeks and now own a Cabrio HE. My problem is I have very sensitive skin. People always say how FLers rinse better so I wanted one to cut down on skin problems, but it did the opposite! I was using double and triple rinses even with minimal detergent (same detergent as in old TLer, had to be sure the HE detergent would not be a problem and it was not). So with the Bosch I was doing 15 loads of laundry per week, 10 with double rinses, and five with triple rinses, and my skin still was uncomfortable. With the Cabrio HE I do about 10 loads per week, eight single rinses and two double rinses. So that was a total of 35 rinse cycles per week in the Bosch and 12 rinse cycles per week in the Cabrio HE. I probably would have had to add more rinses at some point on the Bosch because my skin was still tight and itchy. I do not have that problem with the Cabrio. It also took my three times as long to do my laundry with the Bosch, I would start at 7:00am and finish around 9:00pm, I don't always have that kind of time!

So if I am doing 5 loads less per week on average, and and adding 18 less extra rinses per week on average, is my Cabrio really using that much more water than the Bosch 500 was? I would love to be able to calculate this but I don't know how to find out water usage per cycle with a breakdown in how much water is used in the rinses. I did use the Greener Choices Energy Calculator to figure out how much more energy the Cabrio would use per year, according to that, I will actually save about $600.00 per year using the Cabrio! That means less energy usage, yeah!

Alex,
I looked at the test results at Stiftung Warentest as well. I think they are doing some very good testing, probably a little better than Consumer Reports here. Unfortunately, they haven't tested the larger Bosch Logixx 8 and 9 yet. They are very similar to the Bosch Nexxt series and I would like to see how they compare to the smaller washers in performance and durability. I am leaning towards buying the Nexxt 500, but I am considering the Bosch Axxis as well. It would be nice to have the extra capacity for washing comforters and things like that though.

jcrowley99,
it is strange that you got poor rinsing results even after using several extra rinses. Normally, FLs do a great job at rinsing. I could see that the two standard rinses may not be enough if you are allergic to detergents, but one or two extra rinses should get pretty much all the detergent residue out. There was a post on the CR forum about the Nexxt 500 and how it left the clothes smelling "neutral". The poster was complaining that the laundry didn't smell like Tide anymore like it did when she used a TL. That should be an indicator that it rinsed out all the detergent just fine.

I am glad that the Cabrio works out good for you. I can't really believe that you'll save $600 in energy costs. How did the calculator come up with that number? Doing 600 loads in a TL shouldn't even cost $600...maybe close if you add the detergent and water. But it doesn't seem right that you'll be able to save that much. I guess the number really doesn't matter though what counts is that you are happy with your washer and you will be saving some energy too!

I have followed this with interest, as I will most likely need a machine soon. (My 15 year old Maytag has had two fixes in the past year.)
Has anyone found a FL inconvenient when a dropped or forgotten item needs to be tossed in mid-cycle? Can they be opened after filling?
How does capacity compare? My TL can wash a variety of sized loads, and has a soak option as well.
Thanks for your ideas on these practical issues.

yakker2,
you can't add itmes to a FL in mid-cycle, but you can still add it during the first 8 minutes or so (depending on the washer). At hot or sanitary cycles the door will not open for safety reasons. Adding things late in a cycle will not get them very clean, so I don't find it inconvenient that you can't do it. If I dropped something on the way to the washer I will normally find it before it is too late.
Some FLs do have a soak option as well. The Bosch Nexxt 500 has a two hour soak cycle. I would probably hardly ever use it since it just isn't necessary most of the time.
Regarding capacity, if you compare TLs and FLs with the same nominal capacity, the FLs will have a little more usable space because they don't have an agitator. And you can load the drum quite full and still get good cleaning results.

I hope this helps!

looser
Thanks for your ideas. I'm still unsure, so all guidance is welcome.

I think if I had to be an regular top-loader today, it would have to be a Speed Queen. Nothing fancy. Just a straight forward workhorse. Minimal plastic parts. Best warranty out there.

MRB

Well, it all depends I guess. Stiftung Warentest, our leading consumer magazine, tested Euro FLs a couple of months ago. Part of their testing routine is the Durability Test. Its supposed to simulate using the washer for 11 years or the equivalent of up to 1870 cycles

Comparisons wiht European machines should be taken with a grain of salt.

US frontloaders are 50% to 60% bigger. Despite being bigger US FLs are relatively lighter and have less relative indirect and direct balancing weight.

If you understand the physics there is about triple the potential g force from any imbalance in a load. The vibration kills the machines.

Both single family and multiple family construction in Europe generally also involves a LOT less wood and a lot more reinforced concrete on upper floors. this also has a big impact on vibration and the US homes likelihood of increasing the resonant feedback to the machine.

Again one should be cautious about generalization but one can be confident in saying Europeans wash there closes a lot less than we do. Americans have long been fastidious or obsessed with cleaning clothes very often.

I doubt any 3.8 and over cf US frontloader would go 11 years without trouble. my guess is five years on average for serious repair.

I do however fully agree with controlling temperature and wash time as being serious pluses in any machine.

posted by: tl45 on 07.03.2007 at 10:07 am in Laundry Room Forum

"....Again one should be cautious about generalization but one can be confident in saying Europeans wash there closes a lot less than we do. Americans have long been fastidious or obsessed with cleaning clothes very often..."

That's exactly the point, you make generalization. The average europian family just keeps their cloth clean without crying about fastidios or obsessed americans.

Excuse me, but most of the people I know, as well myself change once or twice a day. It is an urban myth that Europeans don't wash as often as Americans (both personally and laundry), everybody here takes a shower once a day, and to be honest some can find that generalisation quite offensive.

The only reason we have smaller washers, as well as the smaller living accommodation we have, is that Europeans actually wash smaller laundry loads more often (a load every one or two days) rather than waiting for one day and churning it all through, so saying we don't do laundry often doesn't really add up...

Jon

I find it quite amusing that people are fighting about who cleans their clothes most often. The generalizations about Europeans versus (North)Americans are pretty useless. There are probably people of both extremes (cleaning their clothes too often or hardly ever cleaning anything) on both continents as well as a bunch of people somewhere in between... It doesn't really matter though. The life expectancy of a washer depends largely on the total number of loads you do...no matter if that is within 3 or 15 years.
Like Alex stated above, Stiftung Warentest performs longterm reliability test by doing 1850 loads per washer. They haven't tested the large capacity washers yet. I think the largest washers tested were the ones with a maximum capacity of 7 kg. The Bosch Logixx (very similar to the Nexxt series in the US) that is now available in Europe is rated for a maximum load of 9 kg. I hope Stiftung Warentest will perform some tests on it soon. It will be interesting to see if the big machines are less durable.
I think it is pretty obvious that excessive vibration can cause premature failure of a washer. The solution to this would be building sturdier homes or at least a sturdier floor for the laundry area. There doesn't seem to be a vibration problem if the washer is installed in the basement or on the first floor over a concrete foundation. Maybe the architects will eventually adapt...

Wow! And I thought the granite vs solid surface discussions on the Kitchen Forum were lively...I think this discussion is at least as lively!!

I just spent probably an hour or so reading every post...one thing I noticed is that no one mentions that many of the TL machines have temperature controlled water fill...mine has a "warm" and "cold" that mixes hot & cold water to meet what's considered "optimal" for cleaning purposes. The amount of each temp water used varies depending on the temp of the water coming in. My manual even states that detergents do not dissolve very well in cold water and that clothes do not wash as well either. What does work better in true cold water is rinse...items rinse more thoroughly in cold water than hot or warm. My washer does have the traditional "hot" and "cold" settings, but I never use "cold" and I only use "hot" for certain linens...I stick to the controlled warm & cold for the vast majority of my laundry. My experience w/washing in hot water is that colors fade quickly--especially darks (navy, black, etc.) so I don't like using hot water.

BTW...those of us on a well worry more about water usage b/c we do not want our wells going dry! Which, right now in this moderate-to-severe drought is a very real concern (mid-Atlantic states).

My concern, however, is FL options....do I have options for longer/shorter wash cycles, "type" of clothing cycles, "agitation" speed, rinse speed, additional rinse cycles, soak, and, very importantly, can I wash a KS comforter in it? I cannot do so in any (residential) TLer I've owned or seen to-date. For me, it looks like a FL is my primary option. Both my DS and I have allergies and I need to be able to wash our linens in HOT water (to kill dust mites)--that includes towels, sheets, blankets, comforters, curtains, rugs, etc. [My DS is very allergic to dust (i.e., dust mites)]

I've been hearing that many of the European makers (Miele, for example) are stripping down their functionality for the US market--not an advantage in my case! I'm currently researching to find out which FL that is sold in the US is best--so if you live outside the US your washers probably don't compare to US washers...sorry, but your experiences w/specific manufacturers/machines, while interesting, may not be relevant to those of us in the US.

Any thoughts or comments?

Go with a Duet or a Maytag Epic I would say. I think they will be easier to get serviced and they seem to have a good record.

I also have been reading this post for about an hour.

I have a question about FL's and vibration. How do you know if the vibrations will be too strong for your house's structure?

I'm moving soon to a semi-attached townhouse and the laundry room is on the second floor. I think, from all I've read, plus the fact that I have a small laundry room and could really use the space of stacking the FL's, that I'd like to purchase matching FLers. However, I'm concerned about the vibrations.

Can anyone who has FLers give some input?

Thanks!

"I just spent probably an hour or so reading every post...one thing I noticed is that no one mentions that many of the TL machines have temperature controlled water fill..."

buehl, my F&P IWL16 does indeed have temperature control. It divvies it up over 6 increments, and I have watched it meter hot/warm/cool etc. to maintain the chosen range.

I don't recall offhand what the upper four ranges were, although dadoes had a post here some time ago with them. The bottom two are Cold (tap cold) and Cold+ which is I think 65 degrees F.

-Daryl

"...I've been hearing that many of the European makers (Miele, for example) are stripping down their functionality for the US market.."

Yes they are.

But new Miele 4840 washers do have special "allergic" option in the hidden service menu.

Flyingkite: Is the "hidden service menu" accessible via the procedures posted elsewhere used to change spin RPM speed? I haven't found that post yet...but I've been looking.

Do you happen to know which post it is? Anyone?

Yes, I know who's posted it. Just be careful, ever heard about flying washers?

Hee Hee... I just flashed on the flying toaster in that old movie Hardware Wars (??) Hadn't thought of that in years! (uh oh...I think I just dated myself!)

If I get a Miele washer, I probably won't play around with the spin speed or, if I do, I won't exceed Housekeeping's default setting of 1600 rpm. My "laundry room" is in the basement--on a concrete floor.

I'm more interested in the "Water+" or "Water+/extra rinse".

I assume there wasn't a way to turn the heater on for "normal" loads...

I would think that if you switched to EU it would still use 120V...I can't imagine Miele adding 2 sets of electronics in the same machine to handle the 2 different requirements...it would cost them more plus, if the 4840 is designed for the US only, there's no need for the dual use... which may mean there's no way to change "area" anyway...

All speculation on my part since I don't have a Miele right now to play around with.

Thanks FlyingKite!

dont go with the kenmore elite oasis tl....too many problems...i wouldnt be able to tell you about any other top loaders..like the cabrio...i see mixed reviews here on this forum...

I have the Cabrio with the wash plate, I got it in March. I love it, it is the best machine I have ever owned. It is pretty easy to use, holds a ton of cloths, and cleans and rinses great. I have not had any problems with it since I got it, not even any wrinkling above what I got in my old top loader.