Oakley something similar happened to me last week. I was slighly bent over holding onto my bathroom vanity top while putting lotion on my feet. My upper body was not in an unusual position or in any stress. When I straightend up, I had severe pain in my left shoulder when I did the slightest "roll" but especially when I rolled the shoulder joint forward. I took 4 over-the-counter ibuprophen, went on to work, took another dose later in the day, and it was better. Some slight pain the next day....fine now.

I have not clue what happened. We are getting older!

No it may not be arthritis. Arthritis does not necessarily hurt all the time.

Where in the shoulder is it hurting? Top, side, front, back? And is it a specific movement in the movement of the arm that sets it off - front, side, backwards?

I have no answers but just wondering if it might help to isolate the problem area.

Oakley you should have that shoulder checked out. Maybe it could be something you are not thinking of. I would go to a doctor for peace of mind.

Myofascial physical therapy. It has a bit of reputation for being novel, but it really does work.

You need to get to someone with special training in it, not someone who just does myofascially-"flavored" regular PT.

I don't want to alarm you, but those night pains like you describe were the opening symptoms in developing a fully frozen shoulder for me. Frozen shoulder has a period of painfulness as it starts, then once it's fully frozen it's not so painful, just completely immobilized.

It wouldn't hurt to go see a doc to make sure you haven't got a pinched nerve or vertabra. But in each of those cases, I would try some myofascial PT anyway.

My ortho doc said I had a small tear that led to a frozen shoulder and I needed surgery. Regular PT (which I started at once) didn't do anything for either pain or range of motion even though I did it conscientiously. The only thing that made a difference was the lucky chance of getting a referral to a myofascial PT. In the beginning I went every day, but after a month or so was down to once or twice a week. At the end of four months I had 95% range of motion and no pain. Another few months to rebuild strength and I've been good to go ever since (4 years). And since I work on a farm, my arm gets a serious workout. I'm 62 and going up on my roofs to repair some slate this afternoon!

The therapist I used trained with John Barnes (among others). I've put a link below to the JB site, perhaps you'll find a referral there. You want to make sure your proposed practioner is both a licensed PT and has additional accredited myosfacial training.

The other thing, is don't get too worried about a single day or so of discomfort. If it lasts longer than that, though, get it attended to.

HTH,

L.

Here is a link that might be useful: Link to John Barnes site - Myofascial PT

Tuesday, I read ibuprophen is the best thing for pains like our's, but unfortunately I can barely tolerate 2 at a time unless I have a full stomach.

Blf, it hurts on the very top of the shoulder. Movement doesn't matter, it will go into pain in any direction. It's only done it once so far today.

If it gets progressively worse I'll have my Dr. xray it, but if nothing shows up then he'd send me to an ortho.

Lirio, I won't do any PT unless I had an MRI first. When my son hurt his shoulder, an ortho (an older man half retired) didn't do an MRI and sent him to PT instead. My son walked out during the first session. lol. So we sent him to a better Ortho, and he did the MRI and found torn tissue. So if I had torn tissue, then I'd further damage it.

Also Lirio, can you explain how the very beginning of a frozen shoulder feels like? I read about it but it didn't seem to fit me. It only "freezes" because of the temporary pain. And that's just me not moving it because it hurts so bad.

Well, at least my knee stopped hurting a year or so ago. :)

Oak, there are too many possibilities on what the problem could be. Look at the web of nerves in the shoulder area. Also note the lymph nodes in that area.

I'd start with an MRI.

I'm another fan of myofascial release. My massage therapist studied with John Barnes.

I also occasionally go to an osteopath who specializes in integrative medicine by incorporating techniques like cranial-sacral therapy into her work. I found her after a circus with an orthopedist that achieved nothing more than a lot of useless PT and lightening my wallet. Oddly enough, it's the osteopath who gets results in a couple of visits.

Well, in my exerience the freezing shoulder part was painful, but mostly at night. Once it became fully frozen, it wasn't terribly painful, just useless.

In the beginning, I had a moderate day-time awareness of pain from time to time, which made sense as I had recently fallen and landed on an outstretched arm. Which hurt like the H*LL at the moment. It was sore as blazes for a few days after that. Then it seemed to be getting somewhat better over the next few days or weeks; not fast nor completely better and was vaguely painful when I reached for something. Gradually I became aware of dimishing range of motion: couldn't easily reach behind my back and couldn't reach above a certain level in front of me.

At that point the nightime pain started: lying on my back my shoulder would be achy or have sharp pains unless I propped my upper arm up on a pillow tucked along my body. If I forgot as I was waking up and rolled over (in either direction) I would shreik with pain and be literally immobilized in agony for a few minutes. Then it would recede and just feel stiff or achy during the day.

I had never heard of a frozen shoulder at that point so I didn't recognize it. I iced it intermittently, took OTC pain killers some, sometimes soaked in a warm bath and nothing made much of a difference. And I didn't recognize the insidiously shortening of range of motion until I realized I couldn't get both arms up to stick my long hair in a scrunchy. At its worst my affected arm (right one, and I am a righty) wouldn't raise or turn out from the shoulder at all - just bend at the elbow. I couldn't reach my own eyebrow unless I bent my head down. As it happens I never wear a bra so I didn't pick up on the quintessential sign of frozen shoulder: the inability to hook the clasps in the back.

The myofascial therapist (in huge contrast to the conventional PT) stated flatly at the beginning of treatment that if she was hurting me during the session I was to stop her. And unlike conventional PT which subscribes to a no pain/no gain theory of stretching to increase ROM, the myofascial therapist works hands-on to loosen the internally "stuck" layers from each other before trying to open up the joint. She was able from the first session to loosen things up enough so that during the session and for increasingly long periods (just minutes at first) afterwards I had no pain and a slowly enlarging ROM. She also taught me some myofascial methods to briefly ease things on the fly between sessions. (I also did small exercises she prescribed at home several times a day between sessions.) Towards the end of our work, it became a little more intense physically but even when it was somewhat uncomfortable I was in control of the stretching and by then I was highly motivated to get my damn arm back and could see enough progress to soldier on.

I don't know if you have direct access to PT services in OK. In NY we can legally (and with full insurance coverage) go see a PT for a month or, I think 6 sessions, without a script from a doc. If you can find a good myofascial PT they can help figure out what's going on, even w/o an MRI. A simple XRay might also be diagnostic.

I think frozen shoulders will often get better on their own over the course of a year. They seem somewhat mysterious from what I read. Women seem to get them more than men; and certain other health conditions seem to predispose one to them. Often they will show up in the other shoulder afterward. In my case I think the fall which created the small tear was the precipatating cause but my discomfort from that event (in Jan.) had receded enough that it was March before my shoulder started to freeze in earnest. And the day before I finally admitted I had a problem that needed medical care I was out digging trees, so I clearly wasn't still disabled from the fall.

I hope my long tale is at least little helpful to you. The good thing about a frozen shoulder is that it isn't something worse and can usually be resolved using just PT, even though my ortho doc urged me to have surgery for it. He gave a me a script for PT, but told me that in his experience, I'd be back in a few months to schedule the surgery. I had the pleasure of sending him a Christmas card later that year with a picture of me holding a wreath up over my head, with both arms.

Good luck!

L.

Great explanation! Your description of your pain that night is exactly what I went through. Yesterday it had a very slight ache to it. Oddly, yesterday I only had a couple of episodes, much less than usual. I even went grocery shopping and carried heavy bags into the house. BTW, I refuse to wear a bra here at home! lol

Jt, the lymph node thing is scary. My pain seems like it's in the very top bone along with a nerve there.

Yoga, I had an MRI on my neck last year when I sprained it (worst pain ever, couldn't even hold my head up!) so I don't want another one in the same area so soon. Like I said, if it gets unbearable, then I'll hightail it to a doctor.

Even at the height of things I could always carry very heavy things, as long as I could grasp them from in front of me. We heat with wood and I tote about 6 tons in every winter, plus the 4-5 tons of pellets - in 40 lb. bags - and all this was happening in the winter.

What I couldn't do was reach up, or back.

Here's something to do to study your comparative range of motion: Stand close to a wall and walk your uninvolved hand up the wall, itsy-bitsy spider-like. Now try the same motion with your sore side. It's especially helpful if you do this in front of a mirror, because you may see that you are starting to compensate for lack of free joint rotation by kind of hoicking your whole shoulder assembly upward. Watch how one side works compared to the other. Can you reach behind your back and touch the other elbow with the opposite hand? Can you reach behind and touch the back of your thigh with the opposite hand? Can you reach behind and slide your arm up, palm facing away from your back, and touch the back of your neck with the back of your fingertips? And finally, can you reach out to the side, rotate so your palm faces forward and then fold your arm up over your head and touch your other ear without moving your arm out of the same plane it was in when you stretched it out sideways (in other words not reaching across your face)? If you can do all these normally, and equally, then your shoulder is not frozen and your range of motion is quite good.

A shoulder is an incredibly complex joint and when it gets messed up there are some work arounds that your body instinctively makes. I'm not sure whether the work-arounds that I unconsiously took after my fall actually created the subsequent frozen shoulder from over- and mis-use of non-standard joint rotations. In the end, the area of my scapula (big flat bone on your upper back, over to the arm socket) down my arm to my elbow, and my collar bone were all hurting. And all the underlying muscles from the center of my back, neck and clear around to my sternum and down my side were stiff and throbbing - and all the nerve insertations they were snagged on as well. And all those areas needed myofasacial work, in addition to the shoulder joint capsule itself.

The thing about myofascial work that is particularly effective for frozen shoulders is that it works to slowly tease the compressed, too tight, and frankly kind of stuck together layers of muscles apart and then go on to re-open the joint. Just simple (or even forceful) joint stretching isn't going to work as well since you're not only fighting the adherence within the joint itself but also all the attached and associated structures which kind of go on strike, together. And getting them apart relieves the intense nerve pain that the contracture creates.

L.

I typed a long message and thought it was posted but guess not. I have had frozen shoulders, one at a time, 21/2 years apart. My first one occurred after I had cleaned by hand the soffit all around our house after 3 hurricanes in one season came through our area. I had stiffness and thought rest would help -well NOT! I would describe the pain as sharp with an ache afterwards would be like when you hit your funny bone. Mine pain occurred not just in one place but would move around. I didn't go to the doctor for months and by the time I did the 3 months of PT he prescribed only made it worse as more and more trigger points became involved. He offered Cortisone shots but I had been warned that it damages tissue in the long run so I declined. I was to the point that I couldn't zip a dress, dry my hair and picking up anything like a frying pan or large mouth jar would bring me to tears. I finally relented and had a shoulder manipulation where they put you to sleep and wrench the shoulder, tearing the adhesions loose. PT followed for 8 days to help regain ROM and to make you move your arm. I found a set of excerises called Isolated Active Stretching by Aaron Mattes. They gave me more relief than any that the PT person gave me to do. You can google and find videos of them. You can also get some relief by wetting a towel and heating it in the microwave for a couple minutes. Then wrap it in another towel and place on your shoulder and up around your neck. Move it over your shoulder blades as well. Then do your excerises and put ice on afterwards. There is a product called Biofreeze that is great to use. I found it helped to use it at night - when it was hard to find a comfortable position.

My other shoulder froze 2 1/2 years later. Not as bad before I got it manipulated. The doctors say that many women have it between the ages of 55-65 and they think it is somehow related to hormonal changes. Mine did happen a couple of years after going off HRT.

I do have full range of motion now - I can actually reach further behind me now than I ever could but every once in a while I can feel THAT PAIN if I overdue gardening or overhead work too much. Dr. says it won't happen again but I occasionally go for a deep tissue massage and she usually finds several knots under my shoulder blades that she has to work out.

BTW, when I had my first FS, I even had pain in my breast. It is amazing how many muscles are connected in your shoulder. My GP thought I might have a broken rib at one time but it ended up being part of the FS.

My advice - don't wait -. Seek help now before it gets worse. You don't have to live with the pain.

Lirio and Mboston, it's definitely not frozen. I can move it in any direction. The pain always happens (except the other night) when I barely move my arm, no matter the direction. I'll move my arm 5 inches away in any direction and BOOM.

However, my left shoulder which has the torn rotator cuff, there is no way I can lift the arm out and up. I've been living with this for about 2 years now. It hasn't gotten worse because I've learned to deal with it. If I did a "Jumping Jack" exercise, I'd die in pain.

Ever since I did this topic, my right shoulder has only had a few incidents. I'm wondering if the other night when I had that major episode helped it? Weird.

It reminds me of my dh. Since his surgery his shoulder will sometimes get out of joint and he puts it back in place and carries on. Part of me wonders if my shoulder was a tad out of joint and I put it in place when I rolled over? lol

Mboston - so interesting!!! Last year I had shoulder pain - mainly down in my shoulder blades. It caused related nerve pain, one of the worst areas was in the upper arm. I also experienced some numbness in my hands, particularly my right hand. I worried I might have a pinched nerve. Due to some job and office (furniture) changes and spending too much time in front of the computer with bad posture, I had some severe muscle tightness which was affecting nerves. I found out what trigger points were! I, too had pain in my chest, my neck, my arm, etc. Luckily, I had a wonderful physical therapist. I went to a group of PTs who work in sports therapy. I don't know how that varies from a regular PT, but the treatment was great. They also have a small gym there and I learned alot of great exercises to do on my own. Trigger point massage (although I thought at first it might kill me LOL) also really helped. I just looked at the Mattes stretches and found that those are some that my therapist used. They were also great in evaluating and ruling out pinched nerves, carpel tunnel, etc. Thanks for sharing your info, I'm going to check out some of Mattes stretches for other areas of the body. My therapist also encouraged me to take advantage of massage if I started feeling tightness, etc. Because of the stretches and strengthening exercises I learned, improving my posture and making a few changes in chair, position of monitors, etc. I have not had further problems.

Just an FYI but some insurance companies will not pay for an MRI without so many sessions of PT.

tina

My insurance company will pay for PT if a doctor orders one. My GP ordered one on my neck last year and I had no problem w/the insurance.

What I'm not understanding is why a doctor would blindly order PT without doing an MRI first to make sure there is no soft tissue damage. A friend hurt her knee last January, she went to her doctor, an xray showed nothing, so he had her go to PT. It hurt and hurt and she didn't get better. I griped her out for FIVE months to go to an ortho & get an MRI. LOL. She finally did and lo and behold, she has torn tissue. The PT was making it worse.

Anyway, my shoulder took a turn for the worse. Went out to lunch with friends and while I was moving things around on the table my shoulder started hurting, but not bad. It's been aching for two hours now. Sheesh.

So..if it gets really bad, then I'll go to the doctor. I know, me bad. :)

What I'm not understanding is why a doctor would blindly order PT without doing an MRI first to make sure there is no soft tissue damage.

Most MRIs cost over $2,000. While many people would love to have them done every time they have something that hurts, it's just another reason health care costs are so ridiculously high.

Ya, I was just going to say the same thing re: the cost of MRIs. When I had some shoulder pain they did a simple xray to rule out things like tumors and such. They would not do an MRI until I'd tried PT and it didn't work. MRI showed that I had shoulder impingement syndrome and they said nothing to do about it if PT didn't work. Six months of doing PT exercises didn't improve it and in fact seemed to make it worse. Ultimately I discovered the cause of the problem myself - bad kayaking technique. It would improve over the winter and then get worse in the summer. So I corrected that problem.

Since then I've also started doing yoga (for dummies) on a regular basis and no longer have any kind of joint discomfort. Have strengthened a lot of muscles and improved flexibility. DH has had the same positive experience and he had more joint problems that I did.

Ultimately I discovered the cause of the problem myself - bad kayaking technique. It would improve over the winter and then get worse in the summer. So I corrected that problem.

My ex had almost the same thing happen to him. He had quit smoking and was gaining weight. Started going to the gym every morning and overdid it on the rowing machines. Ouch.

I had a frozen shoulder. I visited an orthopedic surgeon/shoulder specialist who said he could inject my shoulder with steroids but it might not help. He gave me the name of a PT. This PT was a real gem. He explained how the shoulder works almost like an accordian and in the case of the frozen shoulder it was like the bellows of the accordian were glued in place so it couldn't fan open. The therapy was tedious, I think I went to the PT 2 or 3 times a week. The process of breaking down that adhesive tissue that "glued" the shoulder in pace was somewhat painful. The PT was an old army guy and not the least bit bothered by my swearing and panting. We were pals by the time the therapy was done. My shoulder was 100% improved. I talked to other people who tried surgery and regretted it. The therapy was a slow acceleration of range of motion exercises plus heat and stim. Really miraculous, imo. I am very grateful that the orthopedist sent me to the PT.

I am just curious if anyone here is experiencing more shoulder and neck pain since getting an iPad.

I spend too much time looking down and have pain in neck and shoulders.

Maybe my age is not helping, I am 67.

I am just curious if anyone here is experiencing more shoulder and neck pain since getting an iPad.

I spend too much time looking down and have pain in neck and shoulders.

Maybe my age is not helping, I am 67.

Francy, I understand the pain, but if I had a patient who was in extreme pain in a joint like a knee, elbow or shoulder, I'd xray it, and then order an MRI. Of course the patient would have be be bad off in the pain, and I'd have to be a doctor. lol.

I'm just going by witnessing the pain my son went through doing his PT before giving him an MRI. And my friend.

If I were to go to the doctor now, I'd refuse an MRI. But if the pain was constant which would make me lose mobility, then I'd get one and go from there.

Lyban, I haven't and I use my iPad a lot. But I prop mine up on something when I use it, whether sitting in a chair or laying in bed. But that's a good question!

Francy, I meant to say "I understand about the price" instead of pain. That's one of the reasons I wouldn't have an MRI unless I felt it necessary, like with my neck last year. I went a full week of not being able to hold up my head and I jumped at the chance for an MRI. lol

I've not had any shoulder issues with the IPAD, however, I am having pain in my pointer finger - I thik they call it Trigger finger, esp. in the morning. DH says its because I have a wickedway of twisting my finger as I'm changing pages while reading. He says I need a stylus, one of those little things you use with the keypad.

Tina - the Mattes excerises are excellent for all parts of the body. The PT that showed them to me and where I got the book uses them all the time. She worked with him on several sports teams here in FL. She says the way they differ from what other PT's use is that you isolate each part of the muscle (such as when you turn your palm up, then down) and you also do them slowly and hold them for a shorter length of time (I think thats right) because it doesn't make the muscle retract as much. I just know even though I did the ones the other PTs gave me to do (the things with the bands and weights), the active isolated ones gave me more pain relief.

Mboston - I think I got lucky when I went to a Sports Medicine therapy group. They really were amazing. I want one of those "cages" they have - the stretches you could do with that thing were amazing! I loved my therapist.

I've been looking for a good yoga class near me because I do believe flexibility is key! So far, not much luck. I've also been using a set of stretches for different body parts that I found on the Mayo site.

tina

"Anyone familiar with bum shoulders?"

Yes, orthopedic surgeons. Go see one. He/She will refer you to the appropriate PT or MRI if needed. MRIs use magnets not radiation, there should be no issue with exposing that area. Yes they cost a lot of money, if you're shoulder becomes useless it may be necessary, but that is up to a doctor to decide.

I will never understand why if you have a health problem you would discuss it on a discussions side of a decorating forum and get other people's opinions or experiences rather than see a specialist.

Lyban - that's something to think about. Staying in a certain position for too long at a time does cause problems. With my shoulder problems it was because I was spending too much time (at work) right in front of the computer - mainly in one position. To top that off, my posture wasn't particularly great, my monitor could have been positioned better, etc.

Stretching, strenthening your core and flexibility are so important. Several people I work with have had joint trouble. Much of it is from not being active and maintaining their flexibility. In today's world, there is often too much time spent at the computer, in front of the tv, with tablets/gameboys, etc. Hours at a time and we don't think to get up and MOVE. Makes a huge difference in how our bodies feel.

tina

I will never understand why if you have a health problem you would discuss it on a discussions side of a decorating forum and get other people's opinions or experiences rather than see a specialist.

Because it's not a serious problem. It's not like I'm saying "My liver area is hurting, what do you think?"

At my age it's common for our joints to start hurting out of the blue. I have a friend who also has a torn rotator cuff but she's like me, she just lives with it. Another friend had to have surgery. I'm not there yet.

I wrote earlier that if the pain got really bad and happened often, I will go to the doctor. I'm not stupid.

Mboston, I always use a stylus for the iPad. You can get them at dirt cheap prices at Amazon. I find them to be much easier to use than my finger tip. And they come in pretty colors. :)

polly929 wrote:
Yes, orthopedic surgeons. Go see one. He/She will refer you to the appropriate PT or MRI if needed. MRIs use magnets not radiation, there should be no issue with exposing that area. Yes they cost a lot of money, if you're shoulder becomes useless it may be necessary, but that is up to a doctor to decide.

I will never understand why if you have a health problem you would discuss it on a discussions side of a decorating forum and get other people's opinions or experiences rather than see a specialist.

Wow. That's a pretty curt and judgemental response but that's just my opinion.
Because what I glean from that response is that anyone that would ask about a medical issue on a forum is an idiot.
Seems to be par for the course around here much too much, again...just my opinion and one of the reasons I lurk more than post.
I will say that the overwhelming majority of posts here are polite and friendly - I enjoy reading those.

People frequent forums because they like to ask questions, read about the experiences of others, share their experiences, get helpful information, and, sometimes, just have a simple conversation on the discussions or off topic section of a decorating, car, garden, or whatever forum.

~Back on topic~

To answer Oakley's OP, I do have experience with mild to severe pain in every joint in my body but no distinct problems with my shoulders.

I just live with it.

Sometimes, I have really bad days but can still function.
It started happening around 10 years ago and got to the point a few years later where I had to take one stair at a time (still happens from time to time).

I don't go to the Doctor for every little thing but decided to go to an Orthopedic Surgeon and get the whole work-up.

Diagnosis: Age - exactly what I thought
Treatment: Joint specific exercises and OTC pain relief.

I just ordered this supplement from Dr. Mercola.
He's a proponent of natural health as well as a Physician, Surgeon, and Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine.
He's a frequent guest on Dr. Oz's show and always interesting.
Anyway, read about it, might be worth a try.

Dr. Mercola on Dr. Oz

Astaxanthin on Mercola.com

Hope your shoulder feels better, Oakley.