I grew up on a farm,
We raised all of our own beef.
And pork. And poultry.
Or, as you say,
all of our own cows, pigs and chickens.

My job was to care for the calves
from the time they were taken from their mothers
to the time they were able to take care of themselves
in the pasture.

I ALWAYS had one 'special' one that was my pet.
And yes, we often ended up eating that one.

Did it bother me?
Yes and no.
I knew from the get-go that it was a definite possibility.
So I had neither right or reason to be upset
when my 'pet' ended up being butchered or sold.
I just 'replaced' it from the next crop of calves.

Would it bother me now?
Probably about the same as it did back then.
If it is raised to be food,
Then food it shall be.

And I thank The Powers That Be
for giving us our sustenance,

Rusty

I am now in the process of consuming some yummy pork which was raised by a friend. I didn't meet the pig, but saw pictures of her. She was raised humanely and dispatched humanely, so I don't feel so bad; certainly her existence was far better than the average commercially raised pig.

I know that's a bit of rationalization.

Speaking of the intelligence of pigs, I can recommend a great read: "Learned Pigs and Fireproof Women" by Ricky Jay. It's a history of sideshow acts and a few other odd items. You may have seen Jay in movies: he's been in a few, and he's had a few specials on cable. He's a magician, actor, and card manipulator. (He can throw a playing card so hard it penetrates a watermelon.) Anyhow, he relates a story about a particular circus act. When a certain song was played, these intelligent pigs would come onstage and do some stuff, including placing a flag in a flagstand. The circus folks liked using pigs because they learned the act so quickly; however, they also gained weight quickly and soon became too large to do their act well. In one instance, the circus had set up in a field, and had gotten rid of the now-too-large pigs by selling them to a local farmer, while doing the act with younger pigs. It so happened that the farmer's field was adjacent to the field in which the circus tent was pitched. When the older (now unemployed) pigs heard the theme music from their act, they broke out of their pen, ran across the field, and chased the little upstart pigs off the stage so they could be the stars of the act.

(You can see similar behavior every year at the Oscars.)

If I didn't know Ricky Jay as a reliable source, I would have doubts about that story. In the book he also describes the life of Joseph Pujol (1857-1945), whose stage name was Le Petomane (that's a made-up French word roughly translated as 'fartomaniac'). Do a Wikipedia search on Le Petomane; it'll probably be the oddest thing you encounter all day. Mel Brooks appropriated that name for the corrupt Western governor (played by Brooks himself) in 'Blazing Saddles'.

Here is a link that might be useful: Learned Pigs and Fireproof Women

Since our brother is executor of the will (not a good choice, in our opinion - we think our sister, who is a lawyer, should have been chosen), we will let him buy the cattle from us. That way they can stay on the same land, and we will also receive rent for the land until that is sold. Mike wants to buy it from us, but that might not be possible, as there is more land than he can afford. There are also more cows than would fit on Annie's farm!

Annie is right - cows make expensive pets, and I am going to have to get over it. Like Amanda, the vegetarian diet just does not work for me, considering I have slight allergies to wheat, corn, rice, soy, oats, and barley. I try to stay away from dairy products, but lately I have found that they are perhaps not the problem. I seem to be okay with eggs, although they also used to upset my stomach, or so it seemed. I am taking blood pressure medicine that affects my digestion, and the drugs I am on now appear to help rather than hurt, unlike the ones I was on at first. Philosophically, I agree with a vegetarian or vegan diet, but it does not work for my constitution.

Sally, the family farm (turned ranch) is closer to Temple and is in Bell County, east of Interstate 35. Our brother works in Waco and has a 35 minute commute while our sister and niece live in north Austin. Our sister is just north of 45th Street, but our niece is actually in Pflugerville, a suburb to the north, because her husband works in Belton, closer to Temple. Our other niece is currently in Korea, and our sister's son lives in Austin, as do most of her husband's family. I did find an Eat Well site, which found a farmers' market in Belton, but not individual farms. Local Harvest did find a farm in the same community (Troy) as my family's farm, less than 3 miles away. I've driven by that farm many times when my father would take the back road to Temple to avoid I35. It was also a shortcut to east Temple. I believe that my family has been selling their cattle in Temple, but I do remember going to the stockyards in Fort Worth with my father as a child, and I have horrible memories of that. The only thing I liked about Ft Worth was the wooden sidewalks. In general, it seemed very primitive for a large city in the 1950s.

Lars

ETA: Interesting about the learned pigs. There is a show on cable now about people in central Texas who hunt ferrel pigs to try to prevent them from damaging people's property. Our brother Mike knows people who were on the show, and he told me how it was staged with pigs being let loose so that they could be "hunted". Mike's friends do hunt real ferrel pigs, however, and they are a big problem in Texas.

This post was edited by publickman on Wed, Mar 13, 13 at 12:43

Lars, When reading "Inherited Cattle", I didn't know whether you need to be congratulated or consoled.

The entire question is interesting from a philosophical point: what creatures deserve to live and why? Years ago, I kept pet mice, just one at a time- they do have a short lifetime- and they were extremely smart, and hard to believe but soulful, even affectionate. I grieved when they died, and I still remember each one with love.
I used to "pet" them with a small fan paint brush and they all seemed to adore this.
I watch the argiope spiders in my garden every year with fondness and interest. It's always very sad when they die but then I am a product of the Charlotte's Web generation.
Anyway, I think all animals deserve a life filled with what they need best and to live in a way that is kind to their souls. I have no problem eating them as long as the death is humane, painfree and quick.
But I can not, could not, eat anything I raised or became attached to.

Cathy, when I get the check from the sale, I may know better how to feel - cows are expensive, and they are worth a lot more than I expected. I don't see how they can sell hamburger so cheap, considering how much a cow costs, which I think is more per pound than hamburger. Of course they can get a fair amount of money for the hides, and so it's not just the meat. I never stopped wearing leather when I was vegetarian - that seemed somehow different, as if it were a by product and not the main reason for killing the cow. I would not wear other types of fur, however, if I knew that the animals were tortured. I realize the important of fur to certain cultures, however.

I have no problem killing mice who invade my house, and I have less sympathy for insects, although I do like spiders.

Lars

I'm not really into butchering from the live kill through the gutting process of most anything with the possible exception of fish. But I am a carnivore and I eat meat and have no intention of changing that. I'd have no trouble eating an animal I met once or twice. For me, there's a difference between animals raised for food and pets so I can keep a separation. I understand though how others have issues with it.

Seems the issue is less of the cattle but a sibling rivalry or dispute. Sounds like you don't want the cattle but don't want him to have them either. In that case and since you inherited them you certainly could sell them to another farmer or sell them to slaughter. I will say this. Having gone through an estate issue, I regret now that I didn't follow my gut feeling to dispute the appointment of the executor. I didn't think he'd actually pull the stunts he did. I definitely regret it.

I won't go into vegetarian ethics now, that's a different issue for a different thread.

Lars, commercially, most cows go from the smaller rancher to Cargill or other large processor, who then feed them for a few months on grains to fatten them up before slaughter. So they weigh a lot more at that time. Did your Dad run a cow-calf operation?

In addition, a steer contains more expensive cuts, only the scrp and cheaper cuts go into the burger. When Tenderloin goes for $20+ a pound, and the Porterhouses and T-bones for $12-$15 (at least here, you can make your money back on the "good cuts" and the scraps ground to burger are cheaper.

I have a feeling Lars' father had a lot more land than my 60 acres, LOL, and a lot more cattle than my half a dozen....

Annie

I grew up eating fish and wild game of every sort. I helped with the skinning and preparation, as well as the cooking. No feelings of guilt there, just envy that I could not go on the hunts with my father and brother and uncles.

I remember, with much less affection, the mass-killing of turkeys on my aunt's farm as Thanksgiving grew close. She supplemented her income by raising several hundred turkeys each year. Again, no guilt, but it was unpleasant. I still hate the stench of wet feathers!

The idea of our eating animal flesh has never bothered me, although cruelty of any kind to animals makes me very angry, and the fight against the egregious greed behind inhumane treatment of animals is one I contribute to generously.

(And I still have guilt feelings about the insect collection my brother and I had when we were quite small--because our method of collecting was pretty barbarous, although totally innocent.)

The only incident related to farm-raised meats that really gave me pause was at a friend's whose family raised sheep, pigs, and cows for food. The animals were always well treated and almost all of them were tame enough for me to pet when I visited the farm. And when the animals were slaughtered, they were packaged for the family freezer with the animal's name--eg., Silvertail, t-bone steaks--and the date. More information than I wanted!

I do not like to meet my food. I know it makes no sense, but I cannot boil a live lobster, but I have no problem with eating lobster tail. My niece's neighbors had two pigs (or hogs, or whatever) named Christmas and Easter. After one of them was slaughtered, my niece got some of the bacon. I adore bacon but I could not eat it, remembering having met Christmas (or was it Easter?). I can't even eat fish with the head still on. Chop it off before serving and I can eat it just fine.

I'm fine with Mike and buying the cows, and I would be happy to sell the farm to them if they could afford it - I just do not want to sell to them at a loss.

Annie, it is quite a bit more than 60 acres, since it used to support an entire family plus servants and field workers when my father's parents were alive. My father bought pretty much all of the land that his siblings inherited when my DGM died, and then we were land poor for quite some time. Some of the land in the area has been parceled into residential estates for doctors who work in Temple, which is a major medical center with TA&M's medical school and a major research hospital. We have not looked into parceling the land for residential, but it might be an option. Land takes a long time to sell, however.

Lars

I have no problem catching fish and eating them, but I am a tiny bit squeamish about boiling a crab or lobster.

This post was edited by publickman on Wed, Mar 13, 13 at 18:04

I just have to laugh I too think it would be hard to eat the food you meet. So when hubby came home I asked him he could. Then proceeded to tell a story about a cow he saw on his way home. It seems like a man had a cow in a small trailer. Then stopped on the side of the road to let the cow out he said it looked like the cow had to stop and pee. Just the thought of it made me laugh now I am not really sure why the man had a cow on the side of the highway not in its trailer but the timing upon reading this thread was perfect. Just for the record it may have been a bull or a steer we don't know the difference.

Arley, I've had the honor of seeing Ricky Jay perform twice. He is an amazing treasure. The second time we took our kids, and he inspired DS#2 so much that he went on to become a Jr. member of the Academy of Magical Arts, aka Los Angeles' Magic Castle. I keep hoping that Ricky will be the summer speaker at the junior's annual summer BBQ, but he may be too ill.

Speaking of eating food one meets....FOAS, you mentioned cats and dogs. Nuff said.

CL, I don't think you can housebreak a cow, LOL, but it's funny to think about.

For the record, a heifer is a female bovine that has not had a calf. A cow is an older female bovine, a bull is an intact male bovine and a steer is a castrated male bovine. Steers are generally used for meat as you only need a few intact bulls for breeding and they fatten more easily and are less aggressive when castrated.

Annie

Thats a very sore subject in my house.we raise Texas longhorned cattle.Beautiful animals,all have names as some are registered.I cannot and will not eat anything that I talk to,feed,or see walking ...no can do..

Assuming that the cattle were raised to become dinner and not for the dairy, I would have no problem in them meeting the end. They are not pets but livestock.

I tend to follow the adage that if it doesn't eat me first, I will eat it. A "meet and eat" does not bother me. I save the emotional attachment for people and pets, not livestock or wild game/fish.

If you feel guilty after eating beef, why are you eating it? There are other sources of protein available.

I don't know anyone who feels guilty after eating beef - I make my decision before eating and have no regrets about my decision afterwards.

Gina, I have no idea what you mean about a cow-calf operation - the cows had calves, if that's what you mean, and the bull is worth more than the cows, since there are few of those, and they are selected for special traits. I have not been to a stockyard since I was a child - I hated them because they were smelly and the women there swore like sailors, which I did not think was very ladylike or feminine. There were a lot of very loud, masculine women in Texas, and they scared me. As a dress designer, I knew that they would never become my clients. I spent most of my time at the stockyards crying, which is why my father stopped forcing me to go. I cried at rodeos also, and so he stopped forcing me to go to those as well. My father could not understand why he could not mold me into a cowboy, thinking that I was a lump of clay instead of a person with my own personality and identity. I felt that there was a lot of cruelty at the rodeos, and basically they were just too scary for me. I much preferred going to the opera and the ballet with my mother, who would take me because my father would refuse to go with her. Some of the operas scared me also and would give me nightmares, especially Madame Butterfly. I got a lot of criticism in Texas for being too sensitive, but I do not consider that to be a bad way to be.

Lars

Lars, your sensitivity is beautiful and appreciated, even with that egregious parenting.
Ded, you summed up what I think, I can't meet my food...I would love them all, from rats to cows to pigs to lobsters. I think I could know a shrimp beforehand but their head might shock me to much.
The lobsters I see in tanks always sadden me. I could never pick one out to eat.

I don't object to eating meat I've met. What I want is for the animal to have lived an Annie's Farm existence. The cruelty of the factory farms is a very sad life, but the slaughter process is the most horrific ending. I have so much respect for Annie for having someone come to the farm to end their lives with love and respect. I would cry my eyes out having known them, but I could at least eat the meat with a good conscience. It's gotten harder and harder to eat commercially raised meat. This spring I'm going to try to find a compassionate farm to buy from in the future. It's quite expensive around here to buy such meat, but we're determined that we'll just have to eat less. Not hard for me but Christy the carnivore is willing. I think I've found a nearby farm for beef and pork, but I need to be satisfied with their slaughter practices. There are quite a few choices for poultry.

For me, the above is a wish. I just hope we can follow through. There's an Angus farm nearby and every time the trucks go by taking them to the sale lots, I cry at the scared panicked sounds they make. You can hear them hitting the floor when they take the corner, etc. That's the best part of what's left of their lives.

Lars, I understand you not wanting the cattle to go to your brother, since you think he's mean and won't treat the animals right. Hard decisions.

We raise Charolais cattle and they have a very nice life. I eat meat, but never our own cattle. Since I know how they are raised, I think I should eat ours, but I just can't bring myself to do so. We have a Great Pyrenees and he loves our cattle and chickens, too.

"I got a lot of criticism in Texas for being too sensitive, but I do not consider that to be a bad way to be."

This comment reminded me of my teen years in Arizona where I heard often the same refrain, I was too sensitive. But they were bullies. Shrug. I like who I am now and who I was then. And I like you, too. :)

Eileen

Eileen, I can see how Arizona could be like Texas when I was growing up. I think we may be more sensitive because we both have artistic temperaments, which makes us like kindred souls, of which I had almost none growing up! I wrote a lot of poetry as a teenager and was influenced especially by the English Romantics - Keats more than any others. I wrote somewhat surreal poetry that hardly anyone appreciated except for one English teacher, who fortunately had beauty parlor appointments when my mother did, and so I would continue to bring new poems to her even after she was no longer my teacher. She expected me to be a writer by profession, but unfortunately that never happened. I am happy as a designer, however, but I do feel that I could have had a career as a writer, if I had put my mind to it. Whatever I was going to do, it had to be something creative. Early in life I decided that it was my life's calling to make the world more beautiful, and I first decided that the best way to do that was through fashion because I thought that 1970s fashion was hideous and people needed alternatives. I made my own clothes in the 1970s because I refused to wear the colors that were popular then. I also wore vintage clothing from the 1950s and early to mid 1960s at that time. It's a bit funny that mid 60s fashion became vintage when it was only 10 years old, but fashion used to change more rapidly that it does now, it seems. I remember shopping with you on Haight Street and what fun we had there!

I also felt that being a pastry chef fulfilled my creative urge, but I do not really like commercial kitchens. I didn't like making huge quantities either, but I only had to fill six 18x26" baking sheets/pans with coffee cakes, cinnamon rolls, brownies, etc. per night. and make three different items.

Lars

Late to the thread, but you could always donate the critters to a farm animal sanctuary. That way, they will get to live out their lives and won't be killed.

We received the check for the cattle last Friday, and fortunately Kevin was working from home that day, since they were sent registered mail. Kevin deposited his yesterday, but I still have to take mine to the bank. It was a bit sad to receive the check, even though it was substantial. It sort of means that my parents are really gone and everything is going to get divided up.

Yesterday, I found a small dead alligator lizard on the concrete where we store our trash and recycling bins. Evidently Kevin ran over it when he took the bins out Monday morning - it may have been hiding in one of the wheel sockets. It was about five inches long, much smaller than the ones pictured below, which I caught in an intimate moment. Anyway, I put the dead lizard in a foodsaver bag and froze it. I could not bring myself to bury it. I love the lizards because they eat a lot of the bad bugs.

Lars

Circle of life...it's really hard sometimes, but that lizard would be food for some other critter trying to feed their young. Can't contribute to the circle of life in your freezer.

Lars, I once had one of Ashley's pet rabbits in the freezer, it was January when it died and I couldn't bury it, I had to wait until spring. People thought that was kind of creepy, but I didn't know what else to do with it so I wrapped it well in plastic and froze it.

You can't keep it there forever, my dear. I think that the next time you do some landscaping, maybe you could put the lizard in the hole for the plants, that way it would feed the tree and keep on living, in a way.

I do know how you feel about your parents, it's hard when you realize that life has irrevocably changed. (sigh) Hugs to you and Kevin.

Annie

I'm still grieving over my parents, and so I'm not at the point yet where I am thinking about the "circle of life".

Thanks for your thoughts, Annie; it's still difficult for me at times when I am forced to remember death, but I am getting better all the time. It's just that at times there are major steps backwards, and then I have to start going forward again, which is hard.

Lars

My sympathy on the loss of your parents. I guess the circle of life is comforting to me about life and death, but understand if it's not to you.

Thinking about housebreaking a cow reminds me of someone I was a housekeeper for back in my student days. He went on a short holiday to the country, and came home with a feral goat kid he had found, insisting he was going to make it a house pet.

I tried to convince him you can't house train a goat, but he was admamant.

Until the day he stormed into the kitchen, shouting, "That goat pi..ed in my bed!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Talking about housebreaking cows, I was at a pooja (celebration) festival for a friend's new home in South India a couple of years ago, where part of the ceremony involves bringing a (sacred) cow inside the house, but it's difficult...

The cow has to really want to go inside, but doesn't like the idea...

But once inside, there's a reward for the poor beast...

(Glad I didn't have to help clean the floor afterwards!)

Wouldn't it have been easier to tempt the cow in with some food in the first place?
Or is that "girl thinking" ;-) ?

shaxmom - I come from this part of India (tamilnadu). Holy cows are usually spooked by the noise and the drama :) In fact I remember that we would reserve a docile cow from our milkman which was much in demand for such festivals and had a premium price! When someone dies, one of the ways to honor them used to be to donate a cow to a needy person. When my grandpa passed away, we had a cow tethered in our backyard for a month before she was taken away. I fell in love with it and would feed it, bathe it and learned to milk it. It was the most gentle creature ever. I was quite devastated to come home school day to find the cow gone!

Namaskara, GWlolo...I figured from some of your previous posts that you were a native of Karnataka!
That pooja was in Hassan, west of Bangalore. Maybe you know it? Beautiful part of the world, where I left a big chunk of my heart. I nearly married the girl of that family, Suprithaâ¦
but her parents, although liking me, said that I couldn't, because I'm not Indian, not a Hindu, and sadly, not of their caste! She wanted to run away to Australia with me, but I knew that the separation from her family would make her miserable, so I reluctantly refused.

A week later they engaged her to a distant cousin whom she'd never met...

Regards,
Shax

(With sincere apologies to all for hijacking this thread...)

This post was edited by shaxhome on Fri, Mar 22, 13 at 1:40

"----(With sincere apologies to all for hijacking this thread...)---"

No problem, let me bring you back on topic. :-)

By coincidence, I was reading about the controversy about serving beef in India.

dcarch

Sorry, double post...

This post was edited by shaxhome on Thu, Mar 21, 13 at 10:56

Triple.

This post was edited by shaxhome on Thu, Mar 21, 13 at 11:16

Quadruple.

This post was edited by shaxhome on Thu, Mar 21, 13 at 11:39

Quintuple.

I blame Bhutan Telecom Internet...

This post was edited by shaxhome on Thu, Mar 21, 13 at 11:54

Sextuple.

I think this may be a record...

This post was edited by shaxhome on Thu, Mar 21, 13 at 11:57

One of the main reasons I became vegetarian was because I realized I couldn't kill something to eat it. To me, buying meat in a styrofoam container is the same thing as killing it, I'm just hiring someone else to do the dirty work, and the animal had a worse life than it would have had if I had raised it like Annie does hers. So, I quit eating meat.

GWlolo, I'm confused about the gift of a cow to needy families. Is it for milk? How could an animal that costs a lot of money to care for benefit a poor family that's not going to eat it?

Lars, every anniversary of the beginning of the Iraq war brings back sad memories of the end of my mother's life. On the evening of the start of the bombing, I found her collapsed on her bedroom floor. Her Hospice nurse wouldn't come to help because she was at church praying due to the bombing. I had to call 911 to get help because I couldn't lift her. A little more than a month later, my mom passed away. Even now, 10 years later, I miss her. It will take time to heal, and you will probably never stop missing your parents.

Sally

"----One of the main reasons I became vegetarian was because I realized I couldn't kill something to eat it. ---"

In that case, (and to other vegetarians) what do you think of this?

http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/13/tech/innovation/lab-grown-meat

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_vitro_meat

dcarch

I think I heard about that research a long time ago, but had forgotten about it. It's interesting. I don't know what to think, as the research is still in its infancy, but I hope they can be successful.

Sally

"-----but I hope they can be successful.-----"

I think that is similar to cloning which has been around for many years. Now they just need to scale up the process to reduce cost.

A very interesting concept. Real 100% meat with 0 killing.

dcarch

People ask me about that occasionally - if I would eat the lab grown meat as a long-time vegetarian. It's difficult for me to wrap my mind around that and see if it's in line with my ethics, so I haven't formed a real opinion yet. I don't know enough about the resources or potential dangers or anything else involved with it.

I went vegetarian for ethical reasons, but it's been so long now that the idea of meat honestly disgusts me. I can't even open the WFD threads anymore because most of the pictures turn my stomach. I also don't believe meat is healthy for humans (at least at the levels that most people consume) so I don't anticipate my feelings to change there, so I doubt I would be personally interested in it. But, I'm always interested in technologies that improve the lives of everyone, including the animals!

It's really interesting to think about.

In India, a milk yielding cow is literally a cash cow for poor families. Unlike enormous dairy operations, most of the milk in india is collected by cooperatives where someone will bring in as little as couple of liters of milk. The cows are not meaty enough to eat :). Most of the meat consumed is either chicken, fish or mutton. Hardly any beef. There is just not enough of a market for it. Most of the leather sourced is also hides from dead cows.

Shaxmom --> I am from tamilnadu which is a neighboring state and the language and customs are slightly different. I did spend a year in Hassan in a NGO for coffee plantation workers. Love Coorg and Coorgi food.

GWlolo, I saw a one hour documentary on dabbawalas.

I noticed here in NYC, there is a company (not India food) starting to do lunch delivery.

dcarch

Hi, GWlolo...yes, I know Tamil Nadu is next to Karnataka...spent too many days in that hot Chennai (Madras) sun to ever forget it! My Tamil is a bit rusty, but am ok at Kannada/Telugu. And love dhosas for breakfast. Not keen on ragi mudde, though...

If I may add to your info about the cows' place in Indian society, it is also considered as the "mother"...a religious and social position as the provider. Also a status symbol in villages. An invitation to drink tea in an Indian household includes the importance of the milk in it. I once made the mistake of innocently tipping a half finished cup of tea down a sink, and spent weeks explaining that I had not refused my host's hospitality, and had meant no offense!

And dcarch...beef is becoming more commonly available in up-market restaurants in the major cities. India's burgeoning middle class and the increasing number of expats have ensured that. Many Indian restaurateurs even keep their own beef cattle herds to ensure supply.

Westernisation has also brought with it a proliferation of US fast-food joints...KFC, Pizza Hut, McDonalds etc are everywhere in the cities, sadly. The Big Mac was originally made with lamb/mutton (which is really goat!), but now they use chicken...