e71fish

several questions

what area of country do you live?

what is electric rate?

this appears to be straight AC and air handlers with backup strip heat and an upgrade for the AC to heat pumps. Correct?

what area of the home does the 5 ton unit serve? a 30KW heat strip is about 100 KBTUs.

"Basement will have a radiant system in the slab that is fed by an outdoor wood burning furnace that will also occasionally supplement heat to the rest of the home."

what do you mean when you say "wood burning furnace will also occasionally supplement heat to the rest of the home?" how?

I did find the Heil air handler model but not the condenser model. I would consider Heil low end equipment;others may have a different opinion. Heil would not be my choice for new home that I planned to live in for many years. what other brands are available?

for HPs, these are my personal specs

15 SEER, 12+ EER, 9 HSPF
best matching var speed air handler
full BTUs in both cooling and heating
R410 refrigerant
scroll compressor preferred
electronic demand defrost preferred
stat with dehumidify on demand feature
staged backup heat strips

have you considered geothermal?

you should request a load calculation in writing from dealer for correct sizing.

A pet peeve of mine is when a builder installs good construction/materials and insulation qualities but offers low end builder grade HVAC. go figure.

IMO

That equipment is the entry model for heil. It is an R22 system, not a 410A refrigerant system. Make sure that whatever you buy, you get something with 410 in it. As tigerdunnes said above, make sure that the HVAC contractor does a manual J heat load calculation and a manual D duct drawing. In my area, it is in the code requirements to do these calculations and drawings for every new construction job.
Trane, in my opinion, would be the most bang for your buck, but you do end up paying more for the name. Plus, all of their coils now are comfort coils that are less likely to form leaks in them as the unit gets older.
The 15 Seer system that Tigerdunnes recommended would be a good system for your house, since you are spending the money to properly insulate the house and get decent windows.

You are right to do some investigation. From the limited information you provided this smells like a cheap low bid contractor. I don't know why anyone would propose an electric furnace for your size house. (Maybe a very warm climate) I also don't understand how your outdoor wood "furnace" is going to work. If you're going to spend the money to install it and then the effort to keep it burning why only heat the basement? Also, do you understand the equipment and controls necessary to provide radiant heat from a wood boiler?

I live in St. Louis, MO. The electric is billed at 5.62 cents for the first 750kw.

this appears to be straight AC and air handlers with backup strip heat and an upgrade for the AC to heat pumps. Correct? I BELIEVE SO.

The 5 ton unit will serve the basement and 1st floor. The 2 ton unit will serve the second floor.

The outdoor wood burning furnace heats water that will be tied into the HVAC system and radiant floor system to provide heat. http://www.hardyheater.com/ I'm not sure exactly how it is tied in. I was told we can use the outdoor furnace to heat and also use the electric in the event the outdoor furnace isn't running.

I'm not sure what other brands are available. I suspected that the quoted system was low end. The home is custom and pricey for the area so I'm a little upset that the contractor would include this system in the contract.

I'll have to find out if the HVAC contractor did any load calculations.

I haven't considered geothermal.

Does a heat pump replace the furnace or is it an additional piece of equipment?

Thanks for the advice.

e171fish

"Does a heat pump replace the furnace or is it an additional piece of equipment?"

in simplified terms, a heat pump is an AC condenser with a reversing valve. It is still the outside condenser paired with the inside air handler. It provides both cooling in the summer and heat in the winter through a properly sized ductwork system.

it is very apparent you are unclear on how the wood burning boiler works. you need to find out and how it can be used to heat the main and upper floor.

if you do elect HPs which I would recommend, you should have zoning controls with separate stats for the main floor and basement system. I would also recommend a properly sized two stg condenser with a 50/100 split on output for this system.

I would not have Heil for my home. Period. low end HVAC for a custom and pricey home will leave you with a bad taste.

IMO

"this appears to be straight AC and air handlers with backup strip heat and an upgrade for the AC to heat pumps. Correct? I BELIEVE SO." Almost correct, electric is the only source of heat in the base proposal. The contractor offered you the absolutely cheapest system possible. Now that raises a few questions. First, we could give the hvac contractor the benefit of the doubt and think that the builder asked him to keep the cost down. Or we can assume that he wants to give you the very least. This raises the question if the duct system and general workmanship will be very good. I wouldn't get too hung up on the brand name at this point. You need to feel good that the hvac contractor knows what he's doing and won't slap it in and dash away. I wouldn't have a good feeling about this since he proposed the cheapest system made by a low end manufacturer.
Now you need to understand your wood boiler. First question is if your electric rates are so low will you ever recoup your costs? Maybe you have access to free wood and this would be your hobby. Who will be doing the install work? Typically you would install a hot water coil in the duct work and have some controls to use the hot water coil (when burning) or the heat pump. You will also have to mix the water temperature down to feed the radiant floor. A buffer tank will also be require to increase the water volume in the loop.

"you should request a load calculation in writing from dealer for correct sizing. "

I agree with Tiger. I find it very hard to believe that a new-construction home, the first floor at that, requires 5 tons for 2300 square feet. I can get away with 3.5/4 tons for my home, which is about 3200 sq. ft. including basement.

Thanks for all of the information. I'm going to do some research and obtain new bids from several HVAC contractors. I like the idea of the outdoor furnace and have access to free wood. I need to learn how it actually works. The installation was going to be done by the HVAC contractor. Should I skip the outdoor furnace?

Would anyone be able to give me a ballpark price on how much more a better quality system is going to cost?

Thanks.

The Hardy outdoor stove/boiler is pretty impressive and will have the ability to heat the whole home and supply hot water also. They have a tank that is heated by the firebox that is circulated through a coil in the supply duct. (this is how my sis and bro-in-law's is set up) The water in the outdoor unit is maintained at 185* and circulated to furnace as needed. When the water temp drops below a certain point the furnace will kick a fan on that will supply air to the fire. There is a coil inside the water tank on the furnace that is for drinking water that goes to the conventional water heater and then to the faucets. The Hardy is a good unit if in stainless steel but some say these units are not very 'green' because when the air feed fan for the firebox is off the fire is starved really bad. If the house is sealed up well I am sure it will be able to supply the whole house.

With this level of insulation and sealing I think I would get a single stage heat pump (carrier trane rheem anything that isn't builders grade) system so you have the option when the temps are moderate to let the heat pumps do the work for you or run the wood burner. If you include floor heat in with everything else your home would be more suited for South Dakota or further north weather.

I would have it set up to run off the heat pumps until it hangs in the 40's fairly solid and then get the radiant floor and heating off of the coils in the furnace until the temps moderate. It will not get wired and plumbed to work at its best if the person doing it is a hvac installer and NOT a technician. It is possible to control everything with a visionpro t-stat without a bunch of switching and valve turning in the basement but there will still be some from time to time. If it is set up right it will be incredible.. if it is set up so so or wrong it will be a headache.

If I was going this far with insulation and sealing and had very much land area at all I would seriously consider geothermal. If you are having all of the work done for the hardy stove and the cost of the stove itself I bet you will have over $5k invested in the stove for the 'free' wood especially since I believe the stainless version is over $3k by itself. I don't think any federal rebates apply to the Hardy setup but you can pull in an extra $2k federal rebate for the geothermal come tax time.

What you have planned if set up right would be awesome but I think it would be tremendous overkill on the heating side. If you wake up and your bellybutton is sticking out... your done! Geothermal can also supply the hot water for the home and I believe for the floor heat also?

Check your utility also for rebates that are available..Geothermal would have a lot faster payback I think even if the wood is free since it will be put to use year around.

I would for sure stay away from anything builder grade I don't care if its Trane Carrier Lennox Ruud Tempstar Heil Goodman whatever if its builders grade I would steer clear.

I have a builders grade unit and there is no doubt when the furnace is on...it sounds like a jet taking off outside but it don't go away!

Best of luck to you.

Thanks again for all of the help. I've got two new contractors who will be proposing a system in the next few days. One installs Carrier the other installs Trane. I'm also going to have the original contractor submit a new proposal with better grade Heil equipment.

Price is a factor however I'm willing to pay more for a quality system.

Are there any particular Trane or Carrier Models I should look into?

I'll follow up with the spec's when they're finished.

I suggest you look into Trane's XL15i heat pumps. Carrier's Infinity heat pumps are also nice (I do suggest you get Carrier's tin-plated copper coils inside--this is an option and should give you a 10-year parts warranty on the coil inside). Trane's XL15i heat pump system comes with a 10-year parts warranty as well from the factory when installed as a matched system. With the XL15i, you could have a nice setup with a variable-speed air handler and humidity-controlling thermostat if humidity is an issue.

I received a new proposal from a Trane dealer today.

He suggested three separate units, one for each floor.

Main floor: Trane 3.5 ton XL15i heat pump. Model 4twx5042a1000a

2nd floor:Trane 2 ton XL15i heat pump. Model 4twx5024a1000a
Basement: Trane 2 ton XL15i heat pumps. Model 4twx5024a1000a

Air Handlers: 1 Trane Model 4teef48a1000a with 15KW heater
2 Trane Model 4teef31a1000a with 8KW heater

All with Trane deluxe programmable controllers.

Main floor will have a Trane ERVS as suggested by the foam insulator.

All the above equipment/installation is only $4900 more than the Heil equipment.

I can upgrade to the XL19i for $1500 each unit.

Any thoughts?

Still waiting on the Carrier proposal.

Great, great units in my opinion. You want this air handler instead for the first floor, however, so make sure you let your dealer know: 4TEE3F49B1000A -- it provides higher efficiency. I assume the Trane touchscreen programmable thermostats will be used -- these are my recommendation (or the Honeywell VisionPRO IAQ). I am assuming these units were sized to a load calculation hopefully? Something you must request for best results -- ask to see the load calculation to confirm pricing. Forget the XL19i in my opinion. The XL20i is the new unit anyway. I give you credit for looking into all your options for this aspect of the new construction--some just use what the builder specs. You doing your research should, hopefully, yield better results.

What are the rest of the details regarding the installation--specifically, ductwork type? I recommend metal trunklines and flex duct connectors.

e171fish

you are now on track with much nicer HVAC that a home like yours deserves.

a couple of questions and observations.

what about the wood burning boiler for the basement? still plan to install this?

you should insist on a load calculation for your home broken out for each zone. request in writing.

I question the size of the main floor unit as well as the size of the strip heat. if you elect a 15 KW, you should request that it be staged with different sizes, perhaps a 10 KW and a 5 KW.

you could have the main floor and basement zoned for one system with zoning controls. I would ask both the Carrier and Trane dealer about that.

I would not have the XL19i. Two stages are overkill for most homeowners and applications plus I don't care for the R22 refrigerant.

with the Trane XL15i HPs which are great mdls, insist on the HW Vision Pro IAQ stats which have the dehumidify on demand feature.

IMO

The trunklines will be metal with flex duct connectors.

We're undecided on the wood burning furnace. I'm waiting to hear from the installer.

"I question the size of the main floor unit as well as the size of the strip heat. if you elect a 15 KW, you should request that it be staged with different sizes, perhaps a 10 KW and a 5 KW." Do you think a 3.5 ton is too big for the main floor if we elect to use separate units for each floor?

Does it make sense to have three separate units or is it overkill? I like the idea of using one unit for the main floor and basement with zoning controls.

We just want the basement to be comfortable as we will use the gym and family room daily.

We're also still thinking about the radiant floor heating system for the basement. The family room will be tile so we thought the radiant system would be nice.

Hopefully we'll get the system figured out this week.

Thanks for all of the help.

"Do you think a 3.5 ton is too big for the main floor if we elect to use separate units for each floor?"

possibly but you will not know for certain without a professionally performed Man J load calculation. Get it in writing. As said before, there are three main reasons for an HVAC dealer to refuse to perform a load calc; don't know how, too damn lazy, or just does not care about their customer. Insist on it.

You can zone the main floor and basement off one system with zoning controls. I prefer Carrier since they have a complete integrated system without third party controls.I recommend a properly sized Infinity 16 HP with the 50/100 output split and their staged backup heat strip. for best comfort, three systems would be the best overall approach.

IMO

Basement units are tricky to size. Most people will size the unit to take care of a reasonable number of people and a fair amount of lighting. The problem is there is usually only a few windows and 1 exposed exterior wall. 95% of the time the basement will be empty and the lights off. This will result in short cycling and high humidity. So a lot of people will end up running a dehumidifier in the corner.
Depending on how much finished space you have, 2 tons may be oversized. Going with a zoned system may be a good solution. You won't save a lot of money up front but it may end up to with the best results.

I agree with funnyside, hence the necessity for a load calculation. Could end up needing only 1.5 tons for the basement. What's good about variable speed blowers is the fact that they can be setup to dehumidify, which may be useful for your basement--keep this in mind. I do like the idea of 3 separate units, but if you zone you would want a 2-stage unit most likely and someone who knows what they're doing.

Please keep us posted e171.

I found this post and others like it very helpful as my situation is much like others on this forum. On Mon Jan 19th Tigerdunes said that a 2-stage unit was overkill. I am building in the upstate of SC and have been quoted a system using the XL16i. Is there a part of the country that 2-stage is overkill or is that a general observation? Will the XL15i offer a meaningful savings?

Tigerdunes, it seems that you are very near my location. If I had to guess I would say you live in Clemson or thereabouts. Are you in the HVAC business? If so would you like to quote my system?

Received the Carrier quote today. The following was proposed:

One shared unit for the main floor and basement:

1 Carrier Infinity 3 ton 17 seer two speed puron heat pump. Model 25HNA636.

1 Carrier 15kw variable speed electric furnace. Model FE4ANF005.

1 Infinity control thermostat.

2nd floor:

1 Carrier Infinity 2 ton 17 seer two speed puron heat pump. Model 25HNA624.

1 Carrier 8kw variable speed electric furnace. Model FE4ANF003.

1 Infinity control thermostat.

All of the above is approximately $900 more than the Trane equipment.

I can upgrade to zone control for the basement for an additional $2500. Upgrading to Carrier 19 seer two speed puron heat pumps would be an additional $820 per unit.

Also received a proposal for a Carrier Geothermal system:

Shared unit for main floor and basement:

1 3 ton 15 kw two stage variable speed w/hot water generator heat pump. Model 50YDV038KCB301.

1 programmable thermostat.

2nd floor:

1 2 ton two stage with hot water generator heat pump. Model 50YDS026NCD301.

1 8KW variable speed furnace. Model FV4BNF003.

1 programmable thermostat.

Basement zone control can be added for 2781.00.

The geothermal system is approximatley 10,000 more than the conventional systems.

I'll be contacting both the Carrier and Trane dealer to ensure load calculations were done.

We'd like to make our decision this week. Once again, any advice is appreciated. I think my head is going to explode.

I don't blame you. It can be a difficult task to pick the best contractor. Good idea to ask about load calculations.

I've heard good things about the Carrier Infinity, though I've never had much interest in them. The 25HPA5 would be more comparable to Trane's XL15i, which is a great unit.

The Infinity 16 heat pumps stop in between switching stages, but the advantage is the 50/100% capacity split which is better for longer run times.

for Pickens

I suspect that for over 99.9% of homeowners, two stg condensers whether AC or HP are overkill and unnecessary. The exceptions are usually for improved dehumidification, oversizing on HPs to get the extra BTUs on the heating size, and of course the main reason would be for zoning. And if I was going to buy a two stg condenser, I want one that has good dehumidification properties with a 50/100 output split.

I would not have the older mdl XL16i which has questionable dehumidification properties, a 70/100 output split. The new improved model is better but I still prefer the XL15i.

wish I did live in Clemson but am relatively close in the upstate area.

for e171fish

I want to see the load calcs in writing with the printout from the software that produced the numbers.

I would not use one system for the main floor and basement without the zoning controls and Carrier offers perhaps the best residential integrated system as any major brand. you do want to qualify the dealer's credentials/experience in this area.

The FE5ANB004+UI has slightly better numbers than the FE4ANF005.

for the second floor, you could drop the two stg for the sgl stg Performance 15 HP which is one of the best on the market and has better performance/eff numbers.

I can't comment on the geothermal other than to say if you have the land, the money, and plan to live in the home many years, then geo is the way to go if operating costs are important to you.

If I understand correctly, the Trane quote is less expensive and includes three systems, one for each floor. I really like that idea better. You do want to use the HW VP IAQ stat for each system.

IMO

Just wanted to thank everyone for the advice. We have decided to go with the Trane system.

Good decision.

Remember, ask the dealer for the 4TEE3F49B1000A instead of the 4TEE3F48A1000A for the 3.5-ton heat pump. This gives superior performance numbers. The goal is to get the most out of each unit with the best air handler match.

e171fish

You must pair the XL15i with the best choice var speed air handler to reach the best performance/eff numbers.

for a two ton XL15i you want the 4TEE3F39A1
the 3F31 is not a bad choice but you lose some heating efficiency.
1382158 Active Systems XL15I WEATHERTRON TRANE 4TWX5024A1 4TEE3F39A1 25000 13.00 16.00 24000 9.00 13800

for a 3.5 ton XL15i, you want the 4TEE3F49B1 or even better the 4TEE3F65B1

I do question both the size of the basement system and the main floor system and hope you have reviewed the load calcs in writing.

and Trane stats will be inferior to the HW VP IAQ. go with the IAQ.

did you decide on the basement radiant heat system?

IMO
Good Luck!

The equipment arrived today and I discovered that the air handlers for the XL15i's aren't the 4tee3f49b1000a and 4tee3f39a1's I requested. They are the 4tee3d40a1000a and the 4tee3f31b1000a. The only thing I changed after providing the HVAC contractor with the units I requested, was adding clean effects to all three units.

I have not been able to contact my HVAC contractor yet to discuss why different units were ordered.

Are these the units I requested but with different model numbers due to the addition of the clean effects?

Any advice?

You were quoted the best matching units in terms of efficiency, so I personally would refuse them, and have the dealer return them to the distributor for the agree-upon models, no questions asked. Both will work, but you can get more efficiency out of the larger air handlers. Ask if they have an explicit reason for using other units. Multiple air handlers are acceptable matches.