I also think much of it is innocent albeit stupidly annoying.

The vodka pie crust, for instance, that is currently popular (in lots of boards other than here) but was first posted here by wizardnm and she credited it from Cook's Illustrated. I also have the issue from Cook's and they did a lot of research to develop that recipe.
However, people will refer to "Nancy's Vodka pie crust" recipe
although she made it clear it is not her recipe.

I agree with James. I have so darn many recipes, most of which came from somewhere else, this forum, cookbooks, my Mom...goodness knows where she got it! I don't have a clue on most of the original sources.

If I had used James salad recipe I would have instinctively called it his recipe 'cause that's where I got it.

I think intent is a big player, nobody's intent (here) is to make a best selling cookbook using others recipes they are simply sharing "good eats".......ooops I think that's copyrighted!

The internet is changing everything, information is starting to become a global asset not a personal one, the old paradigms are being challenged and that's a fact.

Having said that, I always try and attribute a recipe to whomever and wherever I got it but to say it is the original source...not likely!

This is an interesting discussion. I agree that when posting recipes from specific sources, the original source should be cited. It seems, though, that after a while, people seem to refer to the recipe as Zuzu's "Surprise Liver Casserole" because Zuzu first posted it. I think it's the personal connection -- Zuzu is a forum member, so we remember what she posted. We forget that she credited the "LIVER & MORE" cookbook. I don't think there is any attempt at deception there.

I have a question, though. At what point does a recipe become yours? I use lots of recipes as a starting point, but modify them considerably because of my husband's low salt diet. There's a resemblance to the the original recipe, but a lot of the ingredients are modified. I think the heavily modified recipe is now mine and the original source was just an inspiration. Am I wrong?

One long-standing 'rule' in the pre-net days was that there had to be a specific number of changes -- adding or omitting an ingredient, changing the amount used or employing a different cooking technique -- before you could claim a recipe as "yours". That was the guideline used by publishers and companies that sponsored recipe contests. My memory is really hazy on this, but I believe one major change qualified it as original. If all you did was change the amount of salt a smidgen, though, you had to have more. But as both Linda C and Lex mentioned, real legal problems usually only result from copying the description and directions word for word without attribution. Even then, there are only so many ways you can describe most cooking techniques. So it's parroting "the cook's notes" that will get you in trouble.

Totally agree that it's mostly innocent. I've been using a chocolate-caramel bar recipe for 20 years that a cousin in Texas passed along to me after she got it from her sister in California. And, yes, I've posted it online. Just last week, I saw it on another website and learned it was a winning entry in one of the early Pillsbury Bake-Offs. I regretted that I hadn't given proper credit, but who knew? If I ever fail to name a source on something I post, I promise you I just forgot because I never created a dish in my life. Well, except for a few that were, um, unique but inedible... :)

Unless you're trying to profit from it financially, a recipe is pretty much fair game, with most people doing the fair thing and attributing the source if they know it. A photograph, though, is a totally different ball of wax. Copyright laws are strict, and it's easy to prove that you copied someone else's. Posting pix without receiving prior permission puts you at serious legal risk!

Lex culinaria, I also found your site wonderful. Will definitely visit again! And I also want to add that you have been remarkably courteous and low-key in expressing your very valid objections -- especially for an attorney. :)

sm

I also enjoyed Lex culinaria's site. I think there's a big difference between posting a recipe found elsewhere and posting a photo when you know the name of the photographer. The photo is the actual work of another whereas who knows who created the recipe originally. IMHO.

There's a very interesting discussion of recipe attribution on Food Blog Scool - a forum for food bloggers. The discussion started in 2005 and has been going on ever since in various incarnations. If anyone else is interested in further reading on that, I suggest you check that site out and use "copyright issues" drop down menu on the right hand column.

Re: how I found this so quickly. Same way I usually do - a reader sent me the link. I don't spend my time searching out infringements - I'd never have time to do anything else.

Here is a link that might be useful: Food Blog S'cool

Here's an article I like from the Washington Post.

Here is a link that might be useful: Can a Recipe Be Stolen?

Sorry about this everyone, and I just want you to know, that I didn't know, that this was an offence. They were just recipes that I tried on the Internet and Liked them. I didn't mean to steal anyones recipes. I just thought people had them on the Internet to share around. I'm still learning this Internet stuff. My appoligies !!! Now I know. Diana55

Diana don't fuss ! I am sure that almost everyone on this forum knows you are just interested in sharing great recipes.

No harm done and I, for one, am glad you did share or I never would have tried that wonderful salad dressing recipe.

Diana, Sharon's right. Everyone that knows you on this forum knows that you are a wonderful person and it was obvious that you meant no harm.

Ann

Diana -- we've all done it and probably many of us will continue to do it. There is no "criminal intent", just the desire to share good recipes and pictures.

I can't wait to try this recipe. Thanks for finding it and posting it. (((Diana)))

Thanks guy's, because the things said about me, on this post, really hurt me. It actually brought me to tears. I didn't mean to steal anyones recipes, and most of all, I didn't know it was an offence, to repost them, from other websites. I tried them, and liked them, and wanted to share them all with you. I don't invent recipes on my own, if I did, I wouldn't have joined this Forum,to get all the wonderful recipes you have all shared. It was stupidity on my part, and I'm sorry!!! Diana55

Diana - You didn't know. And I don't think anyone believes there was malicious intent.

In the meantime you provided an oppotunity for some dialogue on a subject that we're all going to be hearing a lot more about in coming years.

Lex, lovely site. And I'm interested in that African soup recipe. I had friends from what was then called Zaire who used to make a similar soup, and I always enjoyed it. I shall now have to go make a pot in their memory. :)

It wasn't stupidity. It was just not knowing, which is quite different. You aren't to blame for that.

Some sites are rigorous in monitoring infringement of copyright; other sites are more casual. I have noticed on this forum that members do tend to identify recipes by poster, even when the original poster has been careful to acknowledge the source.

The problem is if someone refers to "Annie's Salsa" that's true, because it's Annie's original formula. But if you say "Annie's Onion Braid" that's not her recipe. There's a critical difference in attribution.

Some disciplines are very careful to acknowledge sources. For example, an origami designer might note the original source of a design, then credit the leg to a different designer, the fold of an arm to another. Personally, I think it's a good practice.

Some authors are also very diligent in monitoring their work. Marcy Goldman is an example. All the recipes on her site are copyrighted and I have seen instances on Bread Digest and other forums where she has requested her recipes not be reproduced. It's perfectly understandable because the recipes she develops are her livelihood.

The best explanation of copyright for recipes I have found is in the FAQ at the King Arthur Flour Baking Circle.

Unfortunately, it's tricky to find. You have to join the Baking Circle, then look for FAQ under Member Recipes. But it is there and discusses ethical as well as legal issues in posting recipes.

Carol

Here is a link that might be useful: KAF Baking Circle

I usually cut and paste forum recipes to include the name of the poster and the date which appears at the top of each post. That way the name of the OP is on record, as well as the source of the recipe, which in the example below, Woodie has correctly noted at the bottom of the recipe. So no matter how many times the recipe is passed on, both the original source or creator of the recipe and the person who first posted it are always seen, as in the recipe below.

(Excuse me Woodie for using you as a good example...LOL. I just took this from my saved recipe files.)

*****************************************************

Posted by woodie2 (My Page) on Tue, Apr 26, 05 at 7:55

It was blustery and cool and a little rainy yesterday so I tried a new soup recipe and we really liked it a lot.

OVEN BAKED SPLIT PEA AND LENTIL SOUP
2 - 32 ounce containers low sodium chicken broth
1 cup dried spliti peas
1 cup dried lentils
4 carrots, sliced
4 celery ribs, sliced
2 medium size red bell peppers, seeded and chopped
2 onions, chopped
2 bay leaves
1/2 teaspoon salt
1-1/2 teaspoons ground cumin
1 teaspoon pepper

Combine all ingredients in an ovenproof Dutch oven.

Bake, covered, at 350 for 2 hours or until peas and lentils are tender. Remove and discard bay leaves.

Yield 8 cups
Source: Southern Living Magazine
Recipe by Schley Sharpley, Atlanta, GA

(Note: I took about a cup of the soup and pureed it in the blender to thicken it and added it back in.)
***********************************************

SharonCb

If the recipe for my salmon cakes is the one spoken of above, I absolutely did not get it from Cooks Illustrated. The recipe is mine and I have been making it for years. Maybe someone from there got the idea from the web! I always give credit where I got a recipe or if I changed it, I always say inspired by ...

Marilyn

I think that does happen Marilyn. Sometimes I'll see a recipe (for example, pork tenderloin with dijon cream sauce or parmesean angel hair flan) and think, isn't that Weed's or Sol's? I mean, they're original, but yet, later on, show up on the web. HUH?! Yes, you're good cooks.

I do apologize for using the word stupidly. I wasn't thinking about you at all in regards to it and had the vodka pie crust on my mind at the time. I also forget that there are still lots of people new to the internet and unfamiliar with copyrights.

Marilyn - I made the same assumption, but after checking I don't think it could have been in reference to your recipe. I looked up Cooks' recipes and yes, there are similarities in the ingredients, those are ingredients that ANY salmon cake recipe would have. Salmon, bread crumbs, eggs, salt....

Diana, You were thinking of us with your original post and I know their was no malice intended on your part. I feel bad that your feelings were hurt.

Cathy

I feel compelled to say two things here.

1. There definitely were some posts here that were hurtful, and at least one seemed to be deliberately so.

2. This whole thread will make me think twice about posting ANY recipe here for fear of getting a slew of accusatory responses.

I'm not saying I disagree with giving credit when posting a recipe, I'm just saying that the more we nitpick and lay blame, the less likely we'll be to post.

I think lex had every right to post her original statement, and she did it in a very polite way. Unfortunately the discussion deteriortated somewhat from there.

Aw, I feel bad for you. I would have done the exact same thing (accidently) especially now that I know how to post pics! I don't think it's stupidity or stealing at all, you just wanted to share some info and now you know the etiquette behind it - as do I now. So, I guess, thanks. I wouldn't take it personally, behind a computer it's easy to be taken the wrong way.

Hey Diana - no worries OK?

Lex did the right thing and politely brought up the subject. Then the attacks begin. Like always. It isn't really a discussion on infringement any more. There was no ill intent and Diana apologized for it. Lex handled the situation very nicely and brought some very nice attention to her blog, which I've read before, your son is adorable :)

You all should stir the flames of copyright infringement without picking on one person who just happened to find a great recipe and didn't include a link or a credit. I bet that never happens to any of you. I hope Martha Stewart isn't pissed because of the lemon custard cakes. Sorry Martha :)

Diana,

First of all, I am very sorry this discussion continues under your salad dressing thread. You have done no more or less than many have done on this site and on the entire web over the years.

Lex, that was a very polite note. Thank you for your courtesy in bringing up this matter. We would welcome you to join us on the Cooking Forum. You would be joining a group of kindred spirits of food lovers and food artists.

May I suggest we take this general topic of discussion to a new thread?

Hugs to you Diana. I am mortified that this would in any way cause you distress. You are a true asset to the CF!

Ann

Can anyone recommend their favorite "supermarket" balsamic? I prepped a salad and was all set to make the dressing when I realized that all I have is some expensive aged stuff.

Fenworth, I buy Lucini or Monari Federozoni from the supermarket! and the Little square bottles from Trader Joe's!

I second the little square bottles from TJ's. The label says, "Trader Joe's Gold Quality Balsamic Vinegar of Modena" and the fine print states, "Trader Joe's Gold Quality Balsamic Vinegar is an aromatic vinegar with a mellow flavor. Made from the unfermented juice of fully ripened grapes, this vinegar is aged for ten years in fine oak barrels." Ingredients: wine vinegar, cooked grape must. Contains sulphites.

Beware of supermarket varieties that use artificial flavorings, caramel coloring and the like.

We've tried most of the supermarket balsamic vinegars. Our favorite is 6-Star Colavita. The stars are a Colavita grading system. One supermarket near us also carries 4-star, which we haven't tried.

I guess I'm the big old bad evil one.

Bye all. After 8 or 9 years here I no longer feel welcome.

Eileen

I don't think you did anything wrong. As someone who has had copyrighted material lifted, it doesn't bother me one bit what you posted and I appreciated it.
Diana was naive at best and at worst unscrupulous to someone who doesn't know her. (and I don't) As she has since admitted she didn't know what she was doing, I can only think this is a lesson to her and the other zillion people reading this! I recall the first time I gave negative feedback on ebay..I didn't know what I doing...but I learned fast!

Gee, is everyone that thin skinned?
The posts here aren't that mean!

The lesson for me in all of this is that if lex_culinaria had emailed diana55 privately I am certain that Diana would have posted an addendum crediting the source and we wouldn't have all of these hurt feelings. In the unlikely event that Diana didn't do so, Lex could always have posted the note she did later.

Eileen, I've known you a long time ,you gave a shot and got a shot, not a biggie.

Bumblebeez it can happen to any of us....

Posted by bumblebeez (My Page) on
Sat, Dec 1, 07 at 9:09

I'm making a sweet potato casserole tomorrow night for a party and want to make it today and bake it tomorrow. Or should I bake it today and just reheat tomorrow? What will the texture be like?

Here is the recipe. I am going to use fresh mashed sweet potatoes however.

Since I hate sweet potatoes, I don't know! But I would never make a pumpkin pie ahead and not bake it. I've had this recipe before and it was quite good. It was also demolished in minutes among many other choices which is why I am making it. I'll double it and add more spices.

I will add the topping fresh after it has been reheated.

RICE KRISPIE-SWEET POTATO CASSEROLE

1 lg. can sweet potatoes (1 lb. 13 oz.), drained
1 1/2 c. white sugar
2 eggs, well beaten
1 c. half & half or sweet milk
1/4 tsp. nutmeg
1/2 tsp. cinnamon

Mix mashed potatoes, sugar, eggs, milk, nutmeg and cinnamon. Pour into buttered 9 x 13 inch casserole dish and bake 30 to 35 minutes at 350 degrees.

TOPPING:

1 stick butter
1/2 c. firmly packed brown sugar
1 1/2 c. Rice Krispies
2/3 c. pecans, chopped

Melt butter. Blend in brown sugar and pour over Rice Krispies. Spread the mixture over the cooked sweet potatoes. Bake 15 minutes at 350 degrees. After baking, sprinkle pecans evenly over the top.

can we let this go....

Here is a link that might be useful: RICE KRISPIE-SWEET POTATO CASSEROLE

Eileen, stay!!!! You are welcome!

I wasn't going to comment on this thread, but for BarnMom to stand alone is not right. I happen to agree with her. While the post here was not a copy and paste, the hash brown one did worry me. I can handle if a recipe is not given its proper credit, but to pull someones elses post/blog/instructions/photos and present as their own is just wrong. Sorry, JMO.

Peppi

Eileen -- go figure, I was sure that I was being fingered as the mean one, and have had a bad feeling in the pit of my stomach about it all day. I sure want you to stay here Eileen!

Emily

I thought it was Changeling.

Oh wait, he's not even here. Nevermind!

Emily:
Marilyn:
Could the Salmon Cakes Recipe; that I posted, be the one to which you are refering.
I hope it isn't. I don't read Cooks Illustrated.

Made this on my own, after trying many recipes and adding variations.
I do this with everything. All we are doing is reinventing the wheel.

Besides most of the recipes, of the past hundreds of years, have been copied,
with minor variations. Basically "a good number of them" are similar.

If any one wants to use anything, that I have posted, go right ahead.
You don't have to give me any credit, because it was done before.

I probably just added an "Italian Pinch" of something,maybe
love ???
Maybe, that's what a lot of you need to do.
LOU

PS : Lighten Up and Enjoy, while you have the time!!!

I just read this entire thread and I feel very sad.

I do have one thing to say and lowpark has already said it well.

"#2. This whole thread will make me think twice about posting ANY recipe here for fear of getting a slew of accusatory response."

This thread was not handled well at all IMHO. We all know that my opinion is worth about about 2 cents. LOL!.

So sad...Eileen, I hope you reconsider.

Nope, not to worry Lou -- definitely not your salmon cake recipe... You'll see I've also posted a public apology to Marilyn, as the recipe I printed off that I thought had come from the cooking forum (the one that is identical to the cooks illustrated) I now can't find anywhere in the cooking forum archives. My own error of misattribution has now contributed to this mess, and for that I really feel terrible!

I guess I disagree with riverrat though -- I didn't think the tone of this email thread was particularly nasty at all, which is why I was concerned /confused that someone had interpreted my post as "mean" when I had really been intending it as a reflection... And I guess I'm also glad this whole issue has been raised, as I think it is an important one for any group of people online to give meaningful thought and debate to...

Emily

Been gone all day and I'm just now getting caught up on this thread. Eileen, I'm not sure why you feel that you are no longer welcomed here, but that is far from the truth. You would be missed. I really hope that you reconsider.

Ann

Unlike some, I feel that this little, ummm, kerfuffle was handled with remarkable restraint. On many (perhaps most?) message boards, such a controversial subject would have led to bomb-throwing. As it was, something was posted and a courteous objection was lodged. A lot of forum members expressed their opinions. Some of them were strong, but none were hateful.

The problem seems to have been the result of naievete, coupled with ignorance of both copyright laws and net etiquette. (And I do NOT use the word "ignorance" as a synonym for "stupidity". I simply mean a lack of knowledge.)

The original poster cried and undoubtedly felt mortified. But what she didn't do was go 'poof', as so many would have. Instead, she had the decency -- not to mention, the guts! -- to post a response expressing her abject apologies to the forum. I, for one, accept.

And then there was the thing with barnmom. We don't know each other, Eileen, but I have the greatest admiration for your honesty. If you'd found that thread and failed to post it, THAT would have been the travesty. You have no apology to make. People deserve to have as much information as possible to inform them before making a decision. I noticed that Diana responded to a couple of comments...but when Ann T observed that she'd seen the photo before and specifically asked if it was on Diana's blog, D failed to answer. Since I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt, and since her contrition sounded sincere, I'm coming down on Diana's side here. But the idea that you would leave, even though you're obviously an integral part of this group, just because you posted a (very relevant) link is ludicrous!!

I guess everybody wants this thread to be buried, so I apologize for this late post driving it to the top again. But the comments that suggested it was handled poorly are very wrong imo. I defy you to name one other website where the comments would have been so uniformly positive/informative/comforting/supportive.

sm

Let's finish this right now. When I used the title on the hasbrown recipe " Diana's hash browns" I called them that, because I have given the recipe to my friend's, and thats what they called them. FOR THE LAST TIME....I WASN'T PURPOSELY TRYING TO STEAL ANYONE'S RECIPES!!! FOR GODS SAKE'S, WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO THIS WORLD !!! WHEN YOU CAN'T EVEN SHARE A RECIPE. I have appoligized and you still are going on about this stupid subject. I HAVE BEEN EBARRASSED ENOUGH !!! I WANT TO THANK ALL THE PEOPLE, THAT HAVE BEEN ON MY SIDE THROUGH THIS, AND TO THE ONES THAT HAVEN'T....WELL...I FEEL SORRY FOR YOU. I'M THE ONE THAT IS LEAVING THIS FORUM, AND I WON'T BE BACK!!! ENOUGH IS ENOUGH !!! Diana55

Fenworth, I second both the Lucini and the Colavita (four star or above) as good solid balsamics for cooking and making dressings. And the Colavita four star one makes a nice reduction, too -- not something you'd want to do with the super-expensive stuff. :) IMO, the Lucini is a little better, but I wouldn't turn either of them down.

Diana made an honest mistake(IMHO)or two and has apologized. I'll be looking for my "chicken bones" over on the swap post btw...LOL

I truly hope the blogger came back and read that....maybe even accept it...I don't know.

I'm thinking the informant is getting the biggest joy out of all of this.....funny he/she has remained hidden/silent.

Eileen, why leave or say goodbye???? I don't get it....really I don't.

Like others have mentioned the internet is making huge changes in our lives. I for one am thankful for that or I wouldn't have found this place and all of the great people that make it up....meeting them in person takes it to another level and is too cool for sure. I know the all about copyrights due to my business but I don't think anyone here is out to make a profit from their posts or recipe sharing. In the grand scheme of things and life in general there are more important things to worry about...again just MHO.

I sure hope we continue to share and post recipes here....this place wouldn't be the same if we didn't.

David

Eileen:
I've had more cause to go AWOL. I'm still here.
So forget it !!!!! You can't leave.
The majority rules and you are only one.

You may be Big ,Old and Bad,( are you ?) LOL,
but I don't think you are the Evil One.
Someone else has claim to that .

After all the good comments directed to you, if it was me ,

I would feel more than welcome.

Lou said that!!! ??? I must be getting soft.

I have been out of town working all week with no time to respond here.

Please understand my sensitivity regarding this matter. I make my living as a creative person, mostly doing visual art but am occasionally called on for my writing skills such as they are. I would be very upset if my efforts - visual or written - were presented as someone else's even if only by omission of attribution. To me it is just wrong. Pleading ignorance doesn't make it okay. Just because it's posted to the internet doesn't make it okay - anymore than taking someone's belongings because they left them unguarded in a car with an open window. Having opportunity does not grant permission.

Many years ago I sat in the audience of a local design and advertising awards presentation and watched as my design work - a year's worth of my daily efforts - was presented on screen with no designer/illustrator credits given. I had resigned from my art director position with the design firm a few weeks prior to the show. I left on good terms and had even given a month's notice. I left because I couldn't work a 60 hour week any longer, I was exhausted. My heart broke as I watched my work receive award after award. Even the presenter commented that there were no credits to individuals (like the other entries). My former employer had no idea I was in the audience. She looked rather startled when she ran into me in the lobby after the show. I said nothing.

At the same show a photographer had entered one of my pieces (her photo, my design) with no credit to me. Ironic because she had made a big stink about the design firm using her image without credit or royalties. The client had supplied us with a large number of transparencies without informing us that they didn't actually own rights to many of them. Our ignorance didn't make it right. A fee was negotiated and she was given printed credit on the finished piece. Yet she submitted that same printed piece as her own. Go figure.

Another time I was asked by a friend and professional colleague to create a poster for an event. It was for the one-time performance of a master's thesis, an interesting adaptation of a Mozart opera. Most of the professional opera singers donated their time, as did the costume designer and others. I created the poster, promotional materials, and tickets. When I opened the program (written by my friend) I read the many credits and my name did not appear! I hadn't given myself a credit on the poster itself, either. I mentioned it to him. He looked horrified, poor fellow.

I have a distinctly formed opinion about creative ownership. I can site many examples of my work being imitated, sometimes it's flattering. It feels a lot better to be acknowledged and appreciated. I do gratis work as well for friends, for fund-raisers. It isn't all about monetary gain.

Eileen

I understand your feelings, but, with all due respect, I think it is time to let this thread die a natural death. Diana never meant anything by it, and admittd she certainly was not trying to take credit away from anyone. However, she apologized, and I think it is time to let this thread die. Lets not rub salt in someone's wound. If I did made a faux pas and people would not let it go, I would be very embarrassed and upset. Most everybody has made their feelings known. Could we please, in the sake of friendships and feelings for Diana just let it go now.
Sherry

Barnmom....you don't understand. I did not know about "Copyrights" on the computer. If I did, I would never, have done what I did. I just assumed that recipes were on the computer to be shared. No more no less. I now know, I assumed wrong, and for that I am sorry, but I am not sorry for my ignorance, because to be ignorant of something, is only human......... and human I am. If you can't forgive me for that, then there's only one thing I can say......I feel sorry for you. Diana55

Oh, and Barnmom.....taking something from a open windowed car is stealing....I did not steal anything. I was sharing a recipe with my friends on the forum. That is all. I am not a thief, nor a lier. THE END !!! Diana55

Diana, my post was meant as an explanation of my personal strong feelings on the subject in general, not intended to be at all personal or directed toward you. You owned your behavior and made your apologies and clearly have the complete support and forgiveness of all the lovely folks here. I'd have posted sooner but I've been very busy or exhausted. I'm fine with it and you.

I do believe I have a right and duty to make my point of view known and to clear up any misunderstandings. With that I shall close the cooking forum chapter of my life. I'm feeling pretty beaten about the head and shoulders.

Eileen