Trudy,
I have dough rising now. Sitting on the kitchen counter. I have never worried about having a warming drawer or proof setting on my stove. As long as your house isn't abnormally cold you should be okay.

Ann

ann_t, if you don't worry about having a warming drawer, then I certainly will not. I had a wonderfully enjoyable time last night looking through all of your recipes.

Thank you for your time...

Trudy, I don't have a warming drawer or anything similar either. Like AnnT, I set mine on the counter. If my kitchen is cold it takes longer to rise, so if I'm baking bread at night and my kitchen is 50, I'll turn on the oven to preheat and set the pan on top of the stove to get that heat.

Heck, I've even got dough recipes that rise overnight in the refrigerator, so bake happily away and don't be concerned.

Annie

This is a different strokes for different folks kinda thing. There are different methods for different types of breads and end results, more than a right, wrong, or perfect way. But it's good to understand the differences since rise times and temperatures are the final determinants of the texture and flavor of the bread.

By proofing dough - I assume you mean the bulk, or primary, fermentation as well as the final proof (after the dough is formed), just to square away some technical terms.

There IS an optimum temperature and humidity for dough rising (and even those are debated among the "experts"), but very few home kitchens have the equipment to completely control it. Just as there are optimum DOUGH temperatures after you've completed making the dough, as well as optimum temperatures to slice the bread, which most people know little about.

77-122°F (25°-50°C) - Rapid increases in yeast fermentation; increase in enzymatic activity; beginning of crust formation; starch swelling; accelerated gas production and expansion contributing to oven spring.

122°-140° (50°-60°C) - Bacteria die; enzymes in yeast are inactivated; yeast reaches "thermal death point" (at around 140°).

Thank goodness bread dough is really forgiving in this area. Too warm a temperature will kill the yeast - 140°F - and that's the most important temperature to know for fermentation and final proofing.

This is why I never suggest using either the - briefly preheat the oven method or the boiling water in the microwave oven method. With BOTH methods you can have an environment that is too hot and can kill off the surface yeast from heat and can gelatinize the starch on the surface. Most people have no idea of the temperature of these mini-environments before tossing the dough in. An oven thermometer is a good thing to have in the kitchen for checking the temperatures of these invironments. Avoid using a mercury thermometer - mercury is dangerous and you don't want to accidently break a thermometer in the kitchen!!!

I use my oven as a proofing box. I'll turn the light on in my oven to provide a CONSTANT source of heat (no going from hot to cold using a brief preheating method), and place a cake pan on the bottom rack if it's electric, or on the bottom of the oven if it's gas, and fill it with hot water to warm the oven and to add humidity. (Safety note: Add the water TO the pan. Don't try to walk from the sink or kettle TO the oven with a shallow pan of hot water.) In my oven, this is an optimum 80-85°F. But be sure to check the actual temperature. You should also check it in several areas of the oven because close to the light might be too hot... I'll take the loaves out well before they are completly proofed. Remove the pan of water and preheat the oven for baking. By the time the oven is preheated, the dough will be completely risen and ready for the oven.

Fast rises, are usually accomplished with direct and fast sponge bread-making methods with bakers' yeast (especially fast-acting varieties of yeast) and a warm, moist environment to rise in. This will produce more even-textured breads. Think enriched loaves and sandwich breads. With 90° relative humidity and 115°F, dough raises the fastest - you'll find this in the boiling water in the microwave method. Fast rises equal little flavor development in the loaves of bread.

Dough naturally leavened with starters require long rises (HOURS at room temperature). You can cheat and speed this up a bit if you're in a hurry by adding 1/8 t. SAF-Instant Yeast to the dough.

Chilling, or retarding, the dough is another method. Dough will continue to rise in a refrigerator until the entire bulk is cold (a normal temperature of 40°F or colder). The cold eventually forces the yeast into dormancy and halt the rise. The (good) bacteria can have a chance to feed and produce some of their flavorful acids.

Chilling for a long period of time, however, does reduce ovenspring and reduces loaf volume, but you get a complex flavor you can't get with a 20-30 minute fast rise.

There's nothing wrong with a long, slow, cool rise in a cold room. It just takes longer. I prefer my 62°F winter kitchen temperatures than warm summer temperatures. When you have a hot kitchen and the humidity is high, don't expect the rising time to take very long at all. This is why you can't time the rise with a clock. The rise is determined by the ambient temperature, humidity, and the yeast activity.

-Grainlady

Hi Ann:
Annie:
Grainlady;
Guess I'm the Impatient type. That's why I never tried the 5 minute bread ,thing.

In the Pizzeria I built a Proof Cabinet.
It held about 100 Pizza pans and had a small hotplate on the bottom with water.
This didn't keep it too hot, about 75 to 80 Degrees and Provided some humidity.

Now I use my Electric Range Oven, turn it on for about 30 seconds, then turn it off.

I fill a pan of warm water to put on the bottom shelf.

Place the dough in a large SS bowl, with a damp towel cover.
And scoot it in to Proof.

I don't know if this is called force raising but it works for me.
Never had a problem, except when I forgot to turn the oven off.

Grainlady:
I told you before, I envy you. Because I could never read too much.
You are amazing. I would fall asleep about 5 times before I finish a long recipe.
But if it is something very interesting, that I want to do,
then I'm OK.

I heat my oven to about 225 degrees, turn it off, open the door for a couple of minutes to let some of the heat out, and then pop in the bread, close the door, and let it rise. Works every time for me.

Bonnie

Some ovens have a setting for low temperature. For example, mine allows setting temperature as low as 75 degrees in the defrost mode. The downside is that the fan blows in that mode so I either need to have the dough well sealed up to not dry out or get the oven to about the temp I want and then turn it off. It also has a proof setting but that only allows for choosing one of two temperatures and the lower temperature is higher than I want - 110. My oven doesn't have a switch to turn the lights on. They are on when the oven is in use and off when it isn't - kind of annoying that Miele with all the fancy features didn't think that I might want the light on without the oven running and that they used such high temps for the proof function.

Mostly I do fine with leaving the dough on the counter or if I want to hurry it along a bit I can put it in the pantry which gets warmed up a bit by the freezer.

For commercial bakers a proofing cabinet can be critical as they are working to a schedule. Temperature is all, both in the dough and the environment, in assuring that the bread is ready at the desired time.

However, for myself and most home bakers, it just isn't that much of an issue. Given a choice I'd rather let dough rise at a cool temperature (not refrigerated); in most cases that assists in the development of flavor. Bakers in a hurry can give the dough a gentle boost by using some of the methods already mentioned - on top of the refrigerator, in an oven with the light on, etc.

Yeast is alive. It is also very forgiving, and barring extreme cold or extreme heat, will multiply very happily wherever you put it.

Carol

Carol: That's all very true but like I said , previously, I get impatient.

If I leave the dough on the worktable, I have to schedule the dough rising.
I don't want the Dough to control my activites.

If it involves too much time, I would rather buy a loaf of bread.
When I know I'll be home for a good while, then that is OK.

I like to do things fast as possible, without sacrificing flavor or texture.

Carol: My Dough is Happy. It is always Smiling, Humming and talking to me.
I heard That !!!
LOU

Hmm, I never posted on this forum before, but . . .

grainlady has the idea. There is a real difference between the fast rising Hawk is talking about and the long slow rising she is talking about.

Key point - "without sacrificing flavor or texture. . . "

The fast rises, like those you get with the instant yeasts, sacrifice flavor in the same way that hothouse tomatoes do. You can get them in winter, but they're not the same as those you grew out back. There are several reasons but one is the fact that the bacterial culture that acts with the yeast and that contributes so much to flavor is sacrificed with the fast rising yeasts. The second is that the autolyzing effect of long, slow reacting with the water and leavening, is lost. So you lose the richness of flavor.

It doesn't mean that you end up with a bad product by any means!

When I used to make croissants, we would mix the dough in the late afternoon and then put it in the cooler where it would rise for at least 12 hours.

Anyway, you don't need a proofing drawer. And you don't need to let the dough control your time either! Just do something else. You can mix the dough, go to bed, and make your bread the next day. If I'm cooking at home, it's always walk-away time, not time spent watching dough!

That's interesting info, rosesinny. My question is, is it possible to let a dough over-rise? How long is too long? There are times I would like to make a dough at night and let it rise overnight at room temperature (which is about 60 degrees in my house), but I didn't know if that was a good idea?

(Although I have made cinnamon rolls and refrigerated overnight for the second rise, then baked in the morning).

Bonnie

Lou, you are absolutely right. It's all about happy dough, and when it's happy, you know it.

Trudymom, sure it's possible to let a dough over-rise, but it's difficult to say how long is too long. There are too many variables.

Partly it comes from experience. If you really want to learn, what I'd suggest is taking a two-pound batch of dough and divide it into half-pound boules (rounds). Let each round rise for a different time, one slightly under-risen (by your estimation), one doubled and "just right", one over-proofed and then retard the final one in the fridge or a cool area like the garage. Note the times and the appearance. Bake each and see how they react. Learn from what you see.

It's just bread. You aren't out a lot of money; odds are you'll have a couple of good boules and a couple not so great. So what. You can make croutons or crumbs or feed the birds and make them happy.

I have a great deal of respect for the work of fine bakers like Peter Reinhart and Nancy Silverton et al, but ultimately if the bread you create makes you and the people you serve happy, that's all that matters. Find what works for you.

The science of dough is good to know, but the people around the table are the most important factor.

Carol

All these years...and I've been using instant yeast. I never knew!

I like to place the covered bowl of dough on the counter directly over the dishwasher and then run a load of dishes. This has never, ever failed for me and the resulting dough is beautiful. We tend to keep the house colder & the work area of the kitchen is also the warmest part.

But basically, I'm making mud pies in comparison to some of the bakers on this forum.

Nina

On cool sunny days when my kitchen isn't warm enough I put it in the car, which gets quite warm in the sunshine. Clearly, though, if we were having freezing temps this would not work :-)

If your microwave is large enough, here's a trick for a loaf or two:

Take a 2 or 4 cup pyrex glass measuring cup, fill it with water and nuke it until it's boiling. Turn OFF the microwave and place the loaf pans in the microwave, leaving the filled glass measuring cup in the microwave.

That makes a warm moist chamber, and the mass of the water keeps the temp fairly steady for a good while so the dough can proof.

Obviously, don't turn the microwave ON during this time.

A similar trick is to use an ice chest. Fill a large jug with very hot water and place it in the chest. Put the loaf pans in the chest and close the lid. That keeps them warm and at a steady temperature.

In my experience, steadiness of a warm temperature is probably more important than the actual temp itself. In both of these techniques, the temp is pretty steady during the proofing period.

Mmmm, Colleenoz, I bet that gives the "new car smell" some competition for a wonderful aromal in the car. :-)

Count me with the leave it on the counter group. I've tried the heating up the oven for a minute and turning it off and then putting the dough inside it to rise, but usually don't mess with it. It seems like a waste of gas.

Sally

Thank you all for your time and comments. I feel like I've just attended the world's best baking school!!

Trudy

bon (Bonnie) asked if it was possible to let dough over-rise - VERY MUCH SO. Over-proofing can happen during the primary fermentation as well as the final proofing.

Most of us learned the poke-it-with-your-finger method to test the dough, but that's an inaccurate test. Then there's the problem with using a slant-sided bowl with a towel hiding the contents. The slant sides prevent accurate guaging of the dough because there's more dough in the upper portion than the bottom, and then there's the game of peek-a-boo you do under the towel, so it's easy for the dough to over-proof.

To help prevent over-proofing dough during the primary fermentation I use a dough rising bucket (aka dough doubler) so that I quickly and easily know how much the dough has risen - no timing or guessing necessary - you can SEE when the dough has doubled.

A dough rising bucket is a plastic, straight-sided, container with a tight-fitting lid and graduated markings on the side. When I place 1-quart of dough in the bucket, snap on the lid, and the dough rises up to the 2-quart mark, I know it has doubled in bulk. It's a perfect little environment. It maintains the moisture. The surface of the dough remains soft and supple because there's no potential for air to dry it out. I keep them in several sizes (2-quart and larger) and can get them from my local restaurant supply store. I mostly use the 2-quart and 4-quart size, but I also have larger ones.

I'd also say allowing dough to rise to double is actually allowing it to rise a bit too much. Since our flour is no longer bromated it doesn't have the extensibility it used to have when "double" was the rise standard. Therefore, I only allow dough to rise to just under double in the dough rising bucket as well as a panned loaf.

Results of old dough (over-proofing):

1. When you punch the dough down, the discharging gases will smell like alcohol and the smell will be strong.

2. The yeast activity will be spent, and the loaf, should you go ahead and bake it, will have very little oven spring.

3. The bread also tends to collapse in the oven before the baking is complete.

4. The crust color is very pale.

5. A slice of bread will have a coarse texture and not be the typical soft crumb.

6. The baked loaf will have an "odd" odor and poor flavor.

-Grainlady

Grainlady, I was going to ask about the poke the dough test. So many recipes say poke the dough and when it doesn't spring back it is done rising but I've had my doubts. My challah dough can be way more than doubled and it still rebounds when poked.

I use a dough rising bucket, but that doesn't help for second rise when the loaves are formed. I have trouble deciding when they are doubled. I've wondered if I am putting them in the oven too early. Especially with the sourdough loaves, I often get so much oven spring that the slashes are pulled out flat - should the slashes still have some depth when the loaf is done? I've linked a picture.

I think it tastes fine and has good texture I think but I'm not sure if it could be better.

I love to bake bread, but I am such a dunce compared to most of you. I don't know all the ins and outs. now I really want that dough rising bucket! I saw it in my King Arthur "wish book."

This reminds me that years ago I used to put my rising bread dough on top of my dryer on wash day !

I don't have a dough bucket, but have used a glass batter bowl (if there's not too much dough of course). Some use a rubber band with a glass bowl so they can judge double the depth from where it started.

Cloud swift, that looks like fabulous sourdough bread to me...

Rosesinny:
Grainlady:
Nina:
And all the ships at Sea. Let's go to Press.
If you remember that , your old !!!

When I had the Pizzeria, I bought the Cake of yeast,I guess it was one Pound.
Now I use the Fliechmans Active Yeast. I'm not trying to disprove anyones input.
But my Bread is always good.It has a nice Bloom,Color and Taste.
If anyone has seen the photo's I posted, they would know.

The only problem I had, was when I forgot to turn the Oven off, when Proofing.
I wound up with a Round top and Bottom. That's nice on a Woman, Butt not bread.

I use my Challah recipe for Cinnamon Buns. It's great.
Recently I posted The Yellow Cake mix with Yeast, recipe.

It was better yet, between a Cake and Bread dough ,perfect for Bunns.
My Pizza and Bread dough, produces a Crispy ,Tender Crust.

I must be doing something wrong, because it is hard to get
some members to try things.

As far as proofing etc. I must be lucky, so I'll continue
the way I'm going.
And try to keep the dough HAPPY !!!

If things change I'll proof the Dough slower.
LOU

Cloud Swift - I think your bread looks great! It may be what you are using to score the tops (or how deep), but there looks to be really excellent ovenspring as well. Scoring is another huge debate item. Angeled (30°) cut, use a lame or a blade, using scissors or a knife - the experts spend a lot of time on the subject...

I also think the "poke test" for dough should go the way of wearing hats and gloves in church! I might also add thumping the bread to test it for doneness should also get a second look. I prefer to actually KNOW if it's done by using an instant read thermometer. Some breads really need that extra 5-10°F to BE done, and a "thump" doesn't give that information. It's brown, doesn't cut it either. I use agave nectar, and honey gives the same false "brown enough to be done" look. Both contribute to early browning - much sooner than the loaf is actually done.

A dough rising bucket will help new/infrequent/hesitant bread bakers make better bread because they can actually tell when the dough has doubled - NO GUESSING. An important part of successful breadmaking. I also set a timer to check the dough in the dough rising bucket. When I bake I WEAR a Polder Timer around my neck (I've been known to wander outside and get distracted while waiting for dough to rise...;-)

These may seem like piddly details for the experienced bread bakers, but there are more questions about "WHAT HAPPENED TO MY BREAD - AND HOW CAN I FIX IT" than details about successes on this site. If an inexpensive plastic tub with a lid can make a failed breadmaker a successful breadmaker, WOOO HOOO!

As far as the final proofing goes (panned or free-formed) - it takes all five senses to make good bread and our eyes have to be our guide at this point.

Over- or Under-Proofing Panned Breads:

1. An incorrect amount of dough placed in the pan to begin with is a prime suspect for over- or under-proofing panned breads. It's the fear-of-the-scale problem. A standard loaf pan (1-1.5# dough) and a 9x5-inch loaf pan (designed for quick breads) are not the same volume. If you put 1-1.5 pounds in a 9x5-inch loaf pan (which can accomodate 2#+), you may allow it to rise way OVER double to fill the space. If you put 2# of dough in a standard size bread pan it will be easy to under-proof it, or you can end with a mushroom and a lot of shredding on the sides.

If I place more than 1# of dough in my Pullman pan, as soon as the dough hits the oven and I get a good amount of ovenspring, the additional dough will quickly seep out any crack in the Pullman pan lid. This is a "MUST SCALE THE DOUGH" loaf. I also scale dough amounts so that I have equal amounts in each pan that bake in approximately the same amount of time to nearly the same size. I scale the dough for hot dog buns, hamburger buns, dinner rolls, etc. The scale is my friend!

2. The next mistake comes when people think they need to allow the dough to rise to the size of the finished loaf - this is over-proofing. The little rule-of-thumb: The dough log is approx. 1/3 the size of the finished loaf. You allow that amount of dough to rise until it's approximately "double" the dough log size - which accounts for 2/3 the size of the finished loaf. The ovenspring (the amount the dough continues to rise after it's in the oven) accounts for the last 1/3 of the size of the finished loaf.

After you are familiar with a certain recipe, you'll know when the dome of the rising dough is about 1-inch over the edge of the pan, it's doubled. You'll use little signs like that to guide you, but that doesn't work all the time on all recipes....

With formed loaves it's a little trickier - hydration and human error play into this, as well as the type of bread. Many aren't supposed to "double".

-Grainlady

I thought of another thing that I mentioned in a Post,a while back.
In West Philly, a friend of mine owned a Bread Bakery.

His ovens were all brick and very deep. I repaired some of the Peels for him.

He had proof boxes; with legs, that sat on the floor.
When the Dough was mixed he put it into the Proof Boxes or Bins to rise.
I imagine the ambient temperature was about 80 degrees.

When it had risen he weighed it all out and Shaped the Loaves.
Let them rise and into the oven.

I tell you he couldn't make enough loaves to keep up with the demand.

The crust was very Thick and Tender and the Flavor was great.
When walking home with a fresh warm Loaf, I always wound up with a 3/4 loaf.

Guess he had Happy Dough too!!!

I just don't know why I'm doing things wrong and it's coming out right ???
LOU

Lou, you and I both, LOL.

No, I really think we are doing it the way we do it because we've been doing it that way for years. Decades, probably (at least for me it's decades, I made my first loaf when I was 7, that would be....um....well, 46 years ago nearly). We know how it looks, how it feels, how long it will take to rise, to bake, whatever.

I agree that a longer, slower rise can give dough a different flavor. I like that flavor from the long slow rise, and I like sourdough too, but Ashley doesn't like either, she likes the milder flavor of the quickly risen white sandwich type breads.

So, I think it's all in what you like. I like crusty, dense and chewy bread, the whole grains and seeds and nuts. Ashley hates all of those things, wants bread to be white, soft, tender, hopefully filled with melty cheese and grilled nicely.

Some others like the "science" of it, want to weigh and measure and make it science. We like to play with the process, experiment, make it art instead of science.

I just don't have the patience to be so "fiddly". I dump everything in the bowl and work until it looks right. I kind of measure, never weigh anything, add ingredients if it suits me. If it's a weekend, I might go for the slow cold rise but on Wednesday night at 9 p.m. it had better hurry and rise so I can bake it and get to bed, I need to get up for work the next day!

To each their own, I say. In those 46 years of bread, I've had few spectacular failures. Some were better, some worse, a couple I forgot about and they rose, then fell, like ancient civilizations, LOL. Others rose and fell and rose again, like a Phoenix from the ashes. All were edible, some were exceptional.

Buy a proofing box if you like, or just sit it on the counter and wait, it'll most likely rise both ways. Get a measured container if it matters to you that your dough is EXACTLY double, or toss it in a bowl, cover it with a clean towel and use it when it looks about right. After all, it's just bread.

I like Readinglady's suggestion, divide the dough into four and treat each one differently, that way you get the look, the feel, the taste of each type of rise, you'll know what over-oroofed and under-proofed looks like. And, frankly, they can all become usable bread crumbs after.

Bread is easy, humans have been baking it for centuries without any fancy or additional equipment. It can also be as difficult or as involved as you care to make it.

Annie

Annie :
I know what you are saying. I've tried the test
( long rise, quick rise, double rise etc.)
I'll stay with what I am doing now.
You know I'm always trying different things.

But you, you, you. Sorry I don't know what to call you.
I'll think of a name.
You never tried my recipes ( Oh, I don't like Raisens, etc)
or some other nummie excuse.
I even tried the Yellow Cake Mix with Yeast. It was great for YOUR Cinnamon Buns, rolls

I'll have to change my name to Chef Pierre La Pupepo ,or someone with notority.
I'll get even, I won't bite your Bunns anymore, when you post them.

And ,I won't give you any more tips, on how to get the ice off your roof.
XXXXXXXXX
LOU

Lou, are you feeling a bit sensitive about your buns?

I would try making them but at the moment I'm trying to avoid recipes that have 8 tbsp of butter.

And I agree that bread can be quite good even with a quick rise. My son's pizza dough certainly is. And I suspect that the long rise makes less difference to breads that have milk, eggs, etc. My challah with eggs, oil and sugar rises quickly and tastes quite good. But for sourdough with just flour, water, salt and starter, a long slow rise sure improves the flavor, crust and texture.

Cloud swift:
They were Annie's Buns . I'm only kidding with her.
I try to terrorize her, once in a while but it don't work.
She just reminded me of how old I am. She started 46 years ago.
And I'm a lot older than her. Thanks a lot Annie. I'll get you !!!
LOU

PS: I don't do Sourdough. Maybe that's why I don't know.

I found this little home bread proofer! I love it and its quick!