It sounds like your son and his fiance are planning the wedding first and will then tell the parents how it will be. I'd suggest you make it clear to the couple that your contribution will be exactly $X and name the amount you're willing to spend. Don't get caught up in who is going to pay for what specific items or you'll be dragged into terrible financial and emotional quicksand.

Give them the amount you're willing to pay, stand firm, and then let them budget, just like they'll have to plan and budget the rest of their married lives together. Good luck, Quilly, I hope this wedding will be a wonderful experience for everyone involved.

Totally agree with folkvctorian! Pick a number you are comfortable contributing (be it 1K, 5K or 25K). Give it to them as a gift. This is your gift to your son and your future DIL. They can plan an extravegant wedding or elope and use the money for a down payment on a house. This way though, you are not caught bickering with whether you will pay for top shelf liquor or just beer and wine. Every decision can become a power struggle, you do not want to be THAT MIL; this should be a celebration! Celebrate! Congratualations and best wishes to you, your family and your son!

Hmmm, I always thought it was just the rehearsal dinner -- and a beige dress for Mom! It would be nice to offer to pay for the cost of your guests, but not tradition.

I can't agree more with the idea of saying "here's what we can pay, spend it as you see fit."

Some of the best weddings I have attended were less expensive casual affairs. One friend lives in a huge house so they spent the money to redecorate and had the wedding in the garden and the reception in the house. Best of all, they got to enjoy the nicely decorated house after. That wedding was a lot of fun.

Traditionally (yes, I know, that is out the window these days), the groom's parents paid for the rehearsal dinner. Never heard about them helping out with the reception at all. The groom usually pays for the bride's bouquet and the license as well.

These days, with sons and daughters often marrying later and with both working, I really don't think it is unreasonable for them to foot part (dare I say all?) of the cost. If the 200 guests are their friends only and not the total list, it sounds as though they may be taking advantage of the situation and planning something a little too extravagant if her parents have put a new limit on what they will spend.

folkvictorian and geogirl gave you greta advise. Don't get caught up in any discussion. I think that giving them a set amount equal to or maybe slightly more than what you would spend on the rehearsal dinner (or whatever amount you want) is a great idea. Let them know that once you give them that, they are free to do as they please with it and you know it will be a lovely wedding, but it will need to cover the dinner.

dedtired - love your beige dress comment! I too thought it was just the rehearsal dinner. My girlfriend has married 3 kids off - 1 daughter and 2 sons. When I asked her opinion she said "Hostess a beautifully elegant rehearsal dinner (not extravagant), wear a beige dress to the wedding, be gracious and keep your mouth shut for a few years!"

Thanks for your advice everyone. I was leaning that way myself but still felt a little unsure of how to handle it. I can see how this would simply things and at the same time avoid the nit picking "I pay, he pays, they pay."

I wanted to add that this is about a 20-somethings values and a 40/50-somethings values. You guys will value different things. That is ok. This is her wedding, but your hard earned money. You want to love your DIL and not make her feel constantly judged (why do you want $20 roses, when $5 carnations would be just fine). Or, since you are on Garden web, "why don't you want the beautiful, perfectly done center piece and give up the band/liquor/whatever she values and you don't inorder to have what you would like". Step away from the crazy.

Congratulations again!

My DD's in-laws paid for their honeymoon, and provided the tuxedos (they rent formals at their store). I had always hear, also, it's the grooms parents who host the rehearsal dinner.

You could offer to pay for flowers or the music for the reception. Maybe an upgrade to what they had planned? I know that all the bridal websites make it so dreamy, but never let you know just how much it's really going to cost. Chair cover rental at $4/chair times $150 chairs...my DD learned really quickly that tying ribbon on the chairs would be a better idea. All the fancy little 'extras' soon got cut and were never missed by the guests.

Right, it is not uncommon that parents say they can give X amount and that is it, especially with working adults. My siblings did that with my nieces and nephews.

You just really have to sit down with them and discuss this, so they can adjust their budget accordingly.

My mother was 83 and only living on Social Security when I got married. She helped pay for my bridal shower and that was it, and I told her she didn't even have to do that, but she wanted to. Yes, I know that is not traditional, but in my family/region that is more common. MIL paid for Grandma's and two aunts' plane tickets so they could attend our wedding. That was wonderful for her to do that and most appreciated. Everything else, we paid. We had about 85 people at our reception, so the smaller guest list really kept costs more manageable.

But I always knew from an early age in that my parents told all of us if we wanted to get married we would be paying for it ourselves.

Traditionally, the groom's family arranges and hosts and pays for the rehearsal dinner. That's tradition from about 50 years ago. Before that, the bride's family hosted both the reception and the rehearsal dinner, if there was one. So it all depends on how far back you want to go for "tradition."

In any case, neither family should spend more than they can afford.

These days, the bride and groom seem to plan the wedding and host the reception. Which is fine, but it is a shift from the family of the bride hosting the wedding. But it means that the bride and groom "should" be funding the wedding, as they are the hosts. Their families can contribute as much or as little as they'd like.

The kindest thing to do is to specify a specific amount of money and give it to the Happy Couple. Once they have a firm budget, based on what they are contributing, and what both sets of parents are contributing, then the Happy Couple can sit down and figure out what they want to spend that money on.

In some areas, it is "tradition" for the groom's family to pick up the band or alcohol or other expenses. But that doesn't meant that the groom's family has to shell out whatever the Happy Couple wants. It's perfectly fine to say, "We have $X000.00 available to help with your wedding. Booze, flowers, the band--spend it on whatever you want. But $X000.00 is all we have to spend. If you want something more expensive than that, you will need to come up with the money somewhere else."

Without a firm budget, it's hard to figure things out. With a firm budget, they can start to determine "wants" vs. "needs." Or they can decide that they need to save more money to have the wedding that they really want, and they can postpone the wedding.

As parents of the Groom, we paid for the rehearsal dinner, rented tuxedos for the Best Man and Groomsmen, and their hotel stay.

Not near as much as the bride's parents had to pay, but what we all did was set up a checking account for both families, and when we could afford to make a donation we would, to help cover little extras that would add up. It worked out great!

The wedding took place in a small town with a lot of out of town guests, but the guests paid for their own expenses. We were lucky, with it being in a small town, hotels, etc., weren't that expensive.

While we are on this subject...I have heard alot about what is expected out of guests as far a gifts or money lately in relation to how grand the wedding is. Example: when my neighbors daughter got married at a middle of the road private club they were pretty vocal with expecting $200 a head to cover costs and come out with a little extra money at the end. How much do you all give at weddings? Do you give more if the reseption is fancy?

jterrilyn, I give a wedding gift. Subsidizing a wedding with cash if I am a guest is not something I do. Doing so makes me a paying customer rather than a guest. Seems rather crass to me. I would politely decline any invitation like that!

Ack! I forgot THE biggest expense! The Honeymoon! lol The Honeymoon was the expense that had me worried to death. But we lucked out again. I told my son back then, "I bet Colorado is beautiful in the Summer." I wasn't making any suggestions, just talking about Colorado in general. Then they decided to go there! Less expensive than say..Hawaii.

DS1 had just graduated college, we had another son in college, so you can imagine how money was tight for us.

But like the advice given above, we kept our mouths shut. The payoff was seeing the two leave the Church for the Honeymoon with huge smiles on their faces. :)

Oh, and one nice thing that put our minds at ease about whether or not if they had enough money for their Honeymoon, was on the way to Colorado they opened all the envelopes given to them at the wedding (no money was asked from anyone..ever), and found all this cash in them. They were happily surprised, while I was relieved.

Cyn, we usually do a gift or money at around $150 and a little more if it's someone very close. We never got an invite to neighbors daughters wedding after my loud inhale when the $200 a head thing came up.I don't think thats the only reason though the other part was when we didn't offer to roll our garage frig over two acres of land and up a hill for their rehearsal dinner party at parents house.

Some people get real crazy with wedding planning. I agree with all those who said give a set price for son or daughters wedding, keep your mouth shut and let them to it.

I didn't read the responses but wanted to chime in quick.

The whole traditional thing where the parents of the bride and groom should pay for x,y,z... *shaking head no*

I have no kids yet but DH and I paid for the mass majority of ours. We also so paid for our honeymoon. I honestly can't imagine thinking anyone else should have any responsibility to pay for our special day. And nobody should pay anymore than they want to or can afford.

I would figure out the amount you want to spend let them decide how they plan to use it.

Congratulations!

Tradition in our area (mid-Michigan) is: rehearsal dinner, bar bill for reception and a few other minor things

However, when our son got married, we split 50-50 with the bride's parents. It seemed the easiest way to work it and no hard feelings for either set of parents.

jody

I was under the impression that the groom's parents were to host the rehearsal dinner and pay for the flowers. Renting tuxedo's was the responsibility of the groomsmen. Paying for the license and honeymoon is a new one to me, as is picking up the bar tab at the reception.

I have to say I really like the suggestion of offering a flat amount that you are comfortable with and let the bride and groom prioritize the rest. Excellent advice. If the Happy Couple are working professionals and living on their own I think they should be paying for their own wedding. If they are just starting our, that's different.

I think you have to look at what kind of income the bride and groom are making and see if they can afford some of the bills themselves. I think its horrible that some kids bleed their parents dry for "their" wedding.

My parents had 4 daughters and we were each given a specific amount and had to pay for the rest ourselves. My MIL was a widow and hosted a potluck at her place for the rehearsal dinner and that was fine with us. We were 30 when we got married and were established enough to pay for things ourselves.

We have sons and had them late in life. By the time they get married we will be retired. They will get a cheque and can spend it how they wish.

My niece is getting married in a couple of months and is basically draining her Dad dry. For wedding gifts they want money to pay for their honeymoon. I won't support that. In our area the bride and groom pay for their own honeymoon.

Wow - that's a new one for me too- the parents of the groom paying for the honeymoon. If they can't pay for it themselves then they can just skip it.

This thread has been an eye-opener for me. While our almost-28 y/o son isn't engaged as yet, I have been wondering about the parents of the groom's responsibilities for a wedding in these modern times. Folkvictorian's idea is brilliant and so darn practical! And, I love that it puts the responsibility of how to spend a set amount of money on the about-to-be-wedded couple, avoiding the dreaded hard feelings and overages. I may have a year or even a few to go before DH & I need to deal with this but I thank you for the great, great solution to something that's been worrying me for a while now!
Lynn

Our son is getting married in a few weeks. Her dad is purchasing the dress but otherwise they are taking care of it themselves. We plan to host a small dinner (10 or so) the evening before and include a check in their card which will be a complete and pleasant surprise for them. My personal opinion is that the couple should plan to pay for their own wedding and the parents chip in whatever they are willing/able to, but no obligation. Weddings are ridiculously expensive these days. Even w/their very careful budgeting, it is my understanding their wedding will be about 20k. No wedding party, no bar, buffet dinner, held on a Friday evening to take advantage of venue's lower rate, recorded music,etc. Relatively very low key and still an exhorbitant amount IMHO:)

I'm starting to feel real lucky I didn't have girls. I can't believe the cost of just the wedding dress. I could never in my wildest dreams spend $5,000 on up on a dress for one wear.

I am floored to read a very modest wedding comes to $20K!

I think we spent about $2K, tops, but I had a very small family-only wedding. I didn't have a lot of money (despite having been working for nearly a decade) and neither did my soon-to-be husband. My Dad bought my dress (street length silk party dress) and paid for flowers and my Mother, sister, sisters-in-law and MIL cooked up the food for a meal afterward at my MIL's house. We didn't go on a honeymoon right away (we were already living together - oops!).

Despite the lack of frills, our marriage must have taken strong roots since we are approaching our 32nd anniversary this spring. Can't argue with the results - and we certainly wasted no time arguing over wedding protocol and party favors. My parents gave me china and my MIL "gave us" family sterling flatware. (Well, the truth is she didn't get around to actually parting with it for nearly 20 years, but I could go and look at it when I visited her -aargh!)

I think the idea of a fixed amount to be used however the B&G wish is brilliant. I would also make sure you find a way to communicate the intention and fixed-nature of your gift to your co in-laws. That way there's less chance of a misunderstanding. It's likely they would be glad to follow suit and remove themselves from the ridiculous emotional pressure/blackmail that The Bridal Industry exerts. I used to do free-lance floral arrangement so I've seen it from the inside. 'Nuff said.

Congratulations and best wishes to your son and future DIL.

L.

Marie, it's a tradition here. The parents don't have to pay, but it's the groom's responsibility. We paid because our son had just graduated and recently landed a job so he didn't have the money for a Honeymoon.

But you know what? I don't regret it at all. I didn't get a honeymoon because we got married between semesters. So I don't have those memories I long for. My son does, and he still talks about it to this day & it makes me smile.

On the way to Colorado, they stopped at their "old" college, and took the Marriage Walk at the Duck Pond, where college lovers go after they marry. Priceless.

If we can help, we'll do it. They weren't asking for the Moon.

I have already started telling my young son (actually, he just hears DH and I talking about it, about others) that if our DS breaks tradition and lives with the bride to be before marriage, we will be breaking tradition and not pay for anything.

I am a girl that likes very nice things, but, I think it is ridiculous that people spend that kind of money on a wedding, especially given that half the marriages will end in divorce. Sorry to be a naysayer on this subject, but, it's just reality nowadays.

I have to chime in with the sentiment that often the simplest and least expensive weddings can be the most beautiful. There are few things that make me more uncomfortable than seeing a family that I know to be struggling financially shell out big bucks for fancy flowers, chair covers, an open bar and live band when a garden setting, sparkling lemonade and recorded classical music can be so lovely.

In addition to the bride & groom's own financial status, I think the guest list needs to be discussed. If Mom & Dad want to invite their friends (as opposed to the young couple's friends), it's only fair to cover the costs for these guests. And conversely, if the B & G are paying for the wedding, Mom & Dad shouldn't expect their own friends to be on the guest list.

Of course, a flat cash gift solves many problems --

We were married over 28 years ago and I don't recall any difficulties deciding who would pay for what. From the moment we announced our engagement, DH's parents contacted my parents and insisted on paying for their guests as well as for DH'S and my mutual friends. This generous offer amounted to a little less than half of the invited guests. DH and I were both working and offered to pay for the flowers and photographer. In addition to the people on their guest list, my parents paid for my gown, the cost of the live band, transportation on the day of the wedding, and both moms generously split the cost of a combined shower (which was greatly appreciated by the members of the bridal party that hosted the affair). DH insisted on footing the bill for the honeymoon. In the end, it's probably less about what tradition dictates and more about what everyone is willing (and able) to do to plan a beautiful day that all will cherish as a memorable beginning for the couple and their families and friends.

Paying for the rental of tuxedos?
That seems crazy.

The bridesmaids (as far as I've experienced) have to shell out their own money for their dress (which up until a few years ago were always leaning toward the hideous side and not something we'd ever be able to wear again -- too bad all those photos are still around, LOL!).

Then they have to get the matching shoes (cuz the bride says so), and for one of my friends' weddings, elbow-length gloves. And flights, hotel rooms.

Why do guys have it so easy?

(Quilly -- the "fixed amount" financial gift for their wedding/honeymoon/home/whatever is the smartest idea! You and your husband know what you're comfortable with giving. All of the frills of today's weddings will never be remembered when the first anniversary comes, and when the 25th anniversary comes.)

When DH and I married 27 years ago this June, his parents and my parents both gave us an amount of money that they felt they could afford, and we made our plans from there. My parents surprised me by also paying for my gown,veil,etc a $600 gown, not $6000!

I made all the silk floral bouquets and boutonnieres for the wedding party (three BMs and 4 groomsmen), and we paid for the dresses for the women and the tux rentals for the men, as our gift to them.

I abhor wedding showers, so I refused all offers of those from both sides.

We had a large reception, as DH comes from a HUGE family - 238 final headcount including the bridal party, cocktail hour with hors d'oeuvres, a nice sit-down dinner, live band, open bar.

But no expensive favors (for people to throw away when they get home) no chair covers (a huge waste, imo, because the chairs may look different, but I guarantee most guests don't care, and they still sit like banquet hall chairs). We served the wedding cake as the dessert.

It was a great party, we had a wonderful time (stayed until the last guest left) and did it all within the financial parameters we knew in advance because of what our parents did.

There are no hard and fast rules any more. Talk to your son (and future DIL, if your son would like her present), tell them that you would like to give them their wedding gift in the form of a check to use for the reception as they see fit. As others have noted, it takes out all the issues of who spends what, who pays for what, etc.

My husband and I paid for everything except the rehearsal dinner.

The only people from my family invited to the that were my parents and my sister (& her husband) that served as my maid of honor. My other 4 siblings (and their families), 3 of which came in from out of state for the wedding, were not included. It became a big joke in my family and they threw what they called the Anti-rehearsal party and had fun and better food. I had a dull dinner I couldn't wait to leave so I could go join the fun party and spend time with my family.

The Rehearsal dinner taking place in the room next to ours was full of lively people and looked like fun. I wanted to go join that one. Later I found out I did know the bride and I could have joined in. They included all family and out of town guests so one more person wouldn't have upset them. Or 2 more if I could have talked my husband into leaving our dull as dust dinner.

Getting back to the question from the OP, I think the advice to give them $X and stay out of how it's spent is excellent. I hope quilly will keep us posted on how it plays out.

I was hoping that Quilly would pop back in and let us know how her evening with her son and future DIL went. I'm hoping all is well and they all will have a great time participating in the wedding planning adventure! Of course, within the budget determined by the B&G because they are responsible to stay within their budget. :)

I am also hoping for no Bridzilla moments.

Thank you everyone for your suggestions. We couldn't get together so yesterday afternoon we had a long phone call with just DS. This has been an interesting experience with quite a few uncomfortable moments unfortunately. It turns out that the bride's family isn't lowering their pledge but they were expecting us to pay for the band and the alcohol at the reception all along in addition to the rehearsal dinner. Apparently they feel this is the norm around here. Several of my friends who have recently planned weddings agree with me that it isn't an automatic expense for the groom's family .

I believe that the best solution is to do as most of you have suggested which is give them money and let them spend it as needed. That will avoid the 'I pay - you pay - we pay' negotiating that can so easily cause friction. Two of my friends told me that's how they handled it when their sons married. We will also do the rehearsal dinner. DH and I had planned all along to give them money as a wedding gift. I guess we had hoped it would provide them with some extra cash as a buffer as they start married life together. Obviously the last thing we want to do is cause any kind of rift.

Part of the problem is that DH and I are more - shall we say - 'subdued' when is comes to spending. We have bought expensive items over the years but we tend to put our money into things of a more lasting value. My resolve is to consider instead that their wedding will provide lasting memories.

Well it seems that your concerns were spot on quilly. I wouldn't get caught up in what you hear about the brides parents expecting you and your husband to pay though. There is often much miscommunication at this point with everyone surmising and tossing around ideas and money feelers. Maybe they did think it or maybe the idea was put in their head or maybe they too think things could get out of hand with spending and might have your same concerns.

Shee, I am with you. DH and I paid for most of the wedding ourselves, inc. the honeymoon. Our rehearsal dinner was super simple. I cannot believe the sense of entitlement that children have! Ditto for college and home expenses. The way I look at it, my mom earned her money, and I need to earn mine! If she gives me any, then it's a GIFT, which should never be expected.

Quilly, it sounds like you have the perfect solution. This way there is no nitpicking.

I have NEVER EVER heard of the groom's parents paying for the band OR the alcohol at the wedding, never. And I have lived in several "regions" including the NE. If it is not a regional thing where YOU live, I would nicely let it be known so and decline. Then tell the B&G that the fixed cash amount that was to be their wedding gift from you and your husband is on the way and they may use it for reception expenses or however they see fit. But that you and your husband were hoping it would be saved for their new start in married life as a buffer.

I was reading this post this morning & have to say that no matter what is customary where I am; my father made it clear to all 3 of his girls that if we wanted college or a wedding; we paid for it ourselves.

I'm curious what would happen if you're expected to pay this or that when you've never spoken to anyone? You then make it clear what you're willing to give if anything.. is it going to cause problems?

I sure hope my son doesn't think I have money to chip in. With my luck; this situation will happen to me with him & his GF if they get married...

I agree with the good advice that has been given here, ie, give the Bride and Groom a check for what you can afford and feel comfortable giving, and call it good. Don't let anyone pressure you into spending money you don't feel comfortable spending. For more on what is "proper etiquette" I love reading the forums at EtiquetteHell.

I wish you and your family the best wedding ever Quilly! Since the money issue is now solved, done, put to bed, it is now time to switch to the celebration part! Be happy, share your enthusiasum with your DS and future DIL. Shower them with smiles, happiness and joy. You are now setting the tone for your future relationship with your DIL and your DS. Every negative or less than joyous tone or comment can potentially be magnified 100 fold by "the inlaws". It is sad, but true. Wives need time to know that their husbands will be there for them, no matter what. Often, it has nothing to do with you, just that the DW/DH relationship needs to be cemented. Laughter, joy and happiness for your growing family can go a long way to smooth over the rough patches. Best wishes to you!

I think the "norms" on who pays for what in a wedding vary tremendously from region to region, state to state, cultural background to cultural background, and religion to religion. I don't know that there is any overriding "normal" anymore.

That being said, my brother is getting married this summer. He and his fiancee are both marrying for the first time at ages 35 and 34. We are "from" Florida/Ohio and the bride is from Kentucky. B&G now live in Texas, but lived in California for ten years before that. The wedding will be in Grand Isle, NY at the grand home of the bride's grandfather. Neither family is of a strong cultural, ethnic or religious background, and the B&G are more "new age" than anything.

Whew! All that being said, my dad tells me he is expected to pay for the rehearsal dinner and the liquor at the reception. Of the other costs, I don't know what the bride's family is paying vs. what the couple is paying for themselves.

Now, back up ten years to my wedding and my dad took the "here is your chunk of money, do what you will" route. I thought it was wonderful. It was my first wedding at 36 (marrying late seems to be the thing in our family) and my older DH's second. Also, DH's family/parents would never be in a position to help financially (and honestly it would never even cross their minds that they should be involved at all), and we didn't expect them to.

Geogirl1 - I wish I could reach across my laptop and give you a big hug! Thank you!

You are so right about this setting the tone for future relationships. I still remember comments my own MIL made and the hurt feelings I had when I married her son. Even though I think they were unintentional as a new bride I was sensitive to her opinion.

I need to remember your words - maybe even print them out - and whenever I find that I'm being too particular or peevish in my dealings with DS and DDIL I'll whip them out to remind myself of the many virtues of graciousness.

terriks - EtiquetteHell is a great site. I just bookmarked it so that I can read more. It's not only informative but wonderfully entertaining.

It's not only informative but wonderfully entertaining.

Yes, I go there for the entertainment value!

Weddings have gotten out of hand just as Christmas gifts have. It has nothing to do with traditions or marriage, just commercialism promoted relentlessly by the many members of the bridal industry. Somehow the wedding day has turned from a day of sacrament---or, if you're not religious, at least it's a solemn vow before witnesses--- into a sort of reality show starring the bride. I think it is vulgar beyond compare for a girl whose working parents make less than $80k between them to expect them to spend about $15,000 on her wedding! Yes, this is a real situation and the wedding takes place in October. So why does someone like this expect to spend several thousand dollars on a dress when she needs repairs on her car? Because she's seen it on TV and thinks this is the norm? I know the girls grandmother and she is worried sick about how all these things will be paid for--- DJ, photo booth, etc. she is actually planning to use some of her student loan money for the honeymoon-- she and the groom are both students with limited hours in part time retail jobs.

We have one DD and two sons and none of them is even close to marriage, but I almost dread it. I am honestly considering the "check and ladder" inducement for them to eschew a big wedding! DH and I eloped to avoid the specter of a huge wedding. We were married quietly at our college by a friend who is an Episcopal priest with a few other friends as witnesses. Both recent grads, and we went on a weekend honeymoon months later when we could both get away. Married 31 years and neither of us regrets not having a wedding.

I agree that giving X amount is better than going carte blanche. There's a big difference between a 4 piece band and a 10 piece band, and an open bar with unlimited bottles of wine on the table or one where the bar is closed throughout dinner and the wine is served. I can't think of one circumstance where it's appropriate for anyone to assume how somehow else wants to spend their money.

One of the problems with planning a wedding is so often the communication between the bride's parents and the groom's parents is second hand. "They said this. They said that." It's easy to get your back up when you hear things this way. Something might have been said while thinking out loud that's translated into a demand. I'm not talking about the band and bar bill, but other things that pop up. It's just that miscommunication can make weddings more stressful than they need to be.

WOW, if my kids had expectations as to what we should provide for them (school, weddings, cars, whatever) it would say more about how I raised them than anything else. You can blame the media, bridal industry, reality tv, etc., but the real fault lies w/the selfish bride and the parents who raised her to believe the world revolves around her.

I can't believe anyone would expect their parents to pay for any part of their wedding. I'd try to help with college costs for the kids, but fancy wedding receptions, you're on your own.