Mother of 3 here, ages 16, 15 and 11. In my opinion:

1. Should she be expected to keep her bedroom picked up?

It really depends on the child. When my 15 year old daughter was 11, she could not keep her room organized to save her life. I "helped" her as needed, which was often. My current 11 year old is neat. My older two, not so much. I required them all to clean their rooms "spotless", meaning, vacuum, dust, and all things in their place once per month; unless we have company coming. After that, I just keep the door closed. It is their room, I just need it to not be hygenically harmful! My 11 year old does need help organizing new things. If it has a place, he can put it there, but he is not good at finding new places.

2. If clothes have been washed/folded and placed in her room, could she be able to place them in the appropriate drawers?

Absolutely. I usually create separate piles of pants, shirts, socks and underwear so that it is all sorted according to "drawer placement". They put it in their drawers.

3. When she eats/drinks something could she be able to place the glass or dish in the sink or dishwasher?

Absolutely.

4. Could she be expected to do her homework after school without being told to do it?

Again, really depends on the child and their abilities. My 11 year old really does not require any reminders b/c he is very task oriented, and has no problem completing his work. Other kids, however, require parents to remind them several times and even sit with them doing a separate task while they do their work. Again, it depends on the child and their abilities. The bottom line is though, that by 7th or 8th grade they will be independent. This is one of those "pick your battles" scenarios, and it's just not one I'm willing to wage. So, it just depends what your child needs.

5. Another thing, if a girl this age is told once to do this, how many other "reminders" should she be given before a punishment, time out, or demerit is given?

No punishment. Just remind her or if this is a constant battle, then create a set time for homework. My 11 year old comes home after school or clubs, gets and snack, relaxes for about 1/2 hour and then does his homework. It's pretty much a set pattern that he does all by himself. Again, my DD at that age required me to set the timeframe and usually I would hover in the area while she did it. It helped her stay on task. So, maybe one reminder, and then they just need to do it the next time with no "just another 10 minutes" involved. To me, these are not issues to battle over. I save the will power wars for the big stuff. They know they need to do their homework, or put their laundry away. Set your expectations together and then work within the boundaries that you have both agreed to.

I agree that each child is different...

As per homework. Two of my three was great about doing their homework. The third, not so much. When he was in 6th grade, I had a life altering meeting with his new teacher. At first it was shocking but later I appreciated her contribution more than I can ever say.

Me:
I need to know what his homework is and when it is due or he won't be successful in your class.

Teacher:
His homework agreement is between me and him.

Me:
(shocked!) But he will be lost in class if I don't help him with his homework.

Teacher:
Then I will put him at the table with the rest of the lost children. His homework is not your concern. (!!!????!!!!)

***

This teacher changed our lives. I watched that son become responsible for his own homework. Sure, he missed a few papers early in the year but by years end, he was doing it all himself.

Maybe a parent teacher conference is in order?

As for scheduling, the ride home was the time we worked out schedules. First, a snack, then maybe a TV show, then chores that didn't get done that morning and homework.

Sometimes TV came after chores, sometimes before. Depending on how important that TV program was to the kid.

We used to have a jar where we kept bits of paper with listed chores inside. Each week, we'd all pick equal number of papers with chores listed on them. Sometimes, my kids would make my bed and clean my room while I cleaned theirs. They would cook dinner while I (or someone else) did dishes. It kept things lively as one never knew week to week what chores would be theirs. The messiest room keeper, cook, etc. would be pressured by everyone to clean up their act because others were cleaning up after them.

It worked for us... It also took pressure off me to solely enforce tidy habits. It became a fun time each Sunday. People could trade if it was willing by both parties involved.

There is no magic recipe for raising kids and those individual child manuals are ever fleeting.

Monablair, you make me laugh! Can she be expected to put her clothes away? Absolutely. In fact, she could be doing her own laundry occasionally. DS discovered that if it wasn't in the hamper, mom wasn't going to wash it, let alone fold it and put it away! By middle school, he did most of his own laundry or made sure it was in the hamper.

She should also be putting dishes and glasses in the dishwasher, not leaving them in the sink or around the house.

I did find that I ended up closing the door to DS's room, though, rather than yell about picking up. The good news is that he now has a place of his own and is as neat as any mother could wish.

Natural consequences work best. Clothes on the floor? They don't get picked up or washed by mom. Oops...nothing to wear?...too bad, so sad... have to wear that less favorite outfit...oh well.

Room a mess...oops...too bad...no friends allowed over until it is clean.

Homework, set a time. Talk to her about it and let her decide if she needs half an hour or less of a break when she first gets home, then do have a set time. I think reminders are fine, but she shouldn't need more than one. The consequence here is that there WILL be a consequence at school if she doesn't do it. I know-I'm a teacher and I tell my parents that homework is one battle they may not want to fight. I can be the bad guy at school.

Dirty dishes around...water only to drink and no snacks...meals/eating at the table only unless she begins to be responsible for cleaning up after herself. Wonder how she would feel if there were bugs in the house due to dishes being left around-ugh.

Set your expectations and rules. No need to yell, just remind her that she knows the rules and that is that.

Please note, I'm not talking about cleaning, merely picking up after herself.

There was an incident yesterday involving her 3 yr old brother. The 11 yr old had an overnight bag that had perfume sprays and spray lotions in it. She was supposed to have placed the sprays on a higher shelf in her room and stash the bag in her closet. But she didn't.

The sprays were left on the rug in the middle of the room. The little boy got one of the sprays and sprayed himself from top to bottom, narrowly missing a direct spray into his eyes.

So, should she be scolded for not picking up after herself, or is she too young to be responsible? What if it had been scissors or a sharp pencil?

Natural concequences. The spray the boy used is gone, right? No more spray. Whatever he didn't use up should be still available for her to use. Otherwise, a 3 year old boy can't be trusted, he needs to be watched. A house is never really 100% child proof, so a 3 year old really has to be watched. In addition, her room should be off limits to the 3 year old. He is old enough to learn the rules - that's not his room. So, no the 11 year old should not be held responsible for the 3 year old's actions. I'm sure she feels bad already without any adult telling her to feel bad.

Making a child learn to take care of their possessions properly or help maintain a home is not a bad thing. They may not like it, but it's not a bad thing. I come from a strict family with five girls and I have a daughter as well. I absolutely believe that by 11 she should have those responsibilities and more. I say more because I believe it's important for kids to have responsibilities that contribute to the family as a whole and not just to their own corner like their room. When I was a kid, when we were old enough to pull toys out of a box, we were also old enough to learn how to put them back. As we got older, we helped more and by the time we started school we had assigned chores. Unless there are extreme circumstances, I don't know why most kids should be exempt from learning how to contribute to the family unit at some level. In the end the reward is two fold, they learn to help beyond their own needs and that helps give them the feeling of being included and needed.

I raised my daughter with the same principals. At 3, she was helping mommy make the beds (it was fun) and by the time she started school she had chores like helping to dust or clear the table after a meal. I don't think there should be any difference between boys and girls either. Making sure they learn to have and manage responsibilities is part of teaching them how to fend for themselves when they are on their own. I've often wondered if some of the reasons so many kids today have trouble adjusting and adapting to their situations is because they've been coddled too much or only required to take care of themselves. Their parents have avoided the going through some of the struggles that come with making their kids do chores. Sadly, it's the children who suffer as a result.

My rule of thumb was 3 strikes, your out. Didn't do it the first time she was asked ok, I reminded her. Didn't do it a 2nd time she was asked, she got a warning. But if I had to ask again, she either lost a privilege, had a time out or got an extra chore.

I realize times have changed and when I look back of course there are things I may have done differently if I had known another way. But, my daughter is 32 now and when I look at how responsibly she manages her life, I've got to believe my core principal has some merit and I did something right. Hang in there Mona, there is a payoff at the end! :c)

No, she is not too young. Responsibility starts way earlier than 11 years old and increases as the child grows. I would probably tell her, very calmly and in an "oh, I'm so sorry but" voice, that perhaps she is not old enough yet to have those sprays and lotions because you just can't take the chance that little brother could be hurt. A trip to the emergency room had the 3 year old ingested anything, or been hurt by something as you mention, would be a nightmare.

Having children 14 and 18 years younger than our oldest daughter meant instituting strict rules regarding oldest daughter's bedroom. There was NO admittance (EVER!!) without permission from Aimee. Period. It was my job to reinforce the rules.

IMO, if her bag was in her room, she should be let off the hook entirely.

My 6yo old and 3yo make their beds and put away their own clothing. I also lay it out on piles on their bed. They also pick out their own clothing for the week and place in the weekly organizer.

They also clear their own place settings at the table and from wanting to do what her 2 older brothers do our 20mo old likes to bring her dishes into the kitchen too.

The children also set the table including getting drink orders. Maybe it's fun for them at this age becasue we've tried to turn as many of these things into learning opportunities: How many people are in the family? So how many forks do you need...? What are teh days of the week? What day of the week do you want these clothes to go in?

The 6yo is responsible for feeding the dog and making sure that she doesn't run out of food or biscuits (of course w/ the proper prompting/ monitoring when needed from us). He lets her out and in.

The 6 & 3yo are also responsible for gathering trash cans the night before trash day.

Are we rigid about all of these things? Some, yes, some no but life isn't rigid so as we decide what can be left for later, etc. as long as it all gets done.

HomeworK? The 6yo does it as soon as he gets home from school. I like the approach that some of the teachers above posted about letting them handle it if it doesn't get done and when he is older I hope I can let go enough to do that should he be lucky enough to luck out w/ a teacher like that!

I'm also doing my best on the 'natural consequences' front. I try - I really do!

Yikes Mona, sounds like you have your hands full! Take a deep breath, believe me, 15 years from now, you'll be day dreaming about these days and wishing they hadn't slipped by so fast. :c)

At eleven - 5th grade- I did all that and a lot more. I emptied the dishwasher, set the table, picked up the evening newspaper, mowed the grass, baked simple things like cookies and mix cakes, and each weekend we had a period where everyone cleaned the house and we all had specific chores.
In addition to vacuuming, dusting and emptying trash in my room I had to dust the living room and wipe down the appliances in the kitchen.
As I grew older I had harder chores. I took over all the family cooking at 13.
Every day when I got up in the morning I immediately made my bed and always got my own breakfast.
We had a clean, neat home growing up and while I deeply resented every one of those chores (except making dinner which I loved), they have served me well to this day.

I was the oldest and had two younger brothers- one seven years younger the other five years younger.
Mom was deeply involved with them and so I became fairly self sustaining. I learned a lot, at least about keeping a house and I'm a great cook.

I agree, Mona! Someday, these little problems that seem so overwhelming right now will seem like silly business that you'd give your left arm to have back.

Remember, all you have to be as a parent is *mostly* good. There is no perfection in this job catagory. I say my grown kids are the exact same people they were the day they were born only more mature - in spite of my interventions!

I think the challenge is finding peace in the family. Making compromises that works well (enough) for everyone. Every child needs to have a rule or two bent once in awhile.

I love natural consequences too! Derek was doing ALL his own laundry by 7th grade as he never made the laundry hamper with his dirty clothes. He is actually quite good at laundry now. Better than his mate. LOL! My kids can good a good meal to boot! Two out of three keep great houses. Max, at 22, is still a major slob. (He does have other attributes but it may take a mate to fix him because gawd knows I failed.)

I learned not to apologize for closed bedroom doors and to thank goodness the bedrooms were upstairs when company came.

The bag was in her room, she was elsewhere and she left the door wide open.

So most of you feel she should be asked to keep her room clean and straight, but the door should remain closed so no one sees it if it's not straight?

Absolutely all of the above. Even my 6yo does all of that. She also is responsible for her 2.5yo brother. She gave him bath, get clothes for him & dress him. She reads to him at bedtime. :-) She is in charge of baking duties, set table.

My 9yo boy does all the above plus trash/recycle, helps 6yo w/ her homework, dishes (1 night), sous-chef (1 night/week though he'd love to help every night! They all love cooking). He's in charge of cleaning up table after meal. He's also in charge of keeping the family room's tidy.

My kids don't complain when I reminded them to do chores. They just say, "oh I forgot" then went & do it.

As for homework, my 9yo had to practice the piano (1-1.5h) right after school, then he does homework. HW is so easy for him it takes a/b 15 minute. Then he does his 30'-1h' reading. Some day he has sports right after school & he'll do this right after coming home from sports (after his snack, that is) :-)

I'm the grandmother not a parent. There are differences of opinion between the mom and dad as to how the children are "groomed" for maturity.
When she's here it's hard to get her to do things, because she's not made to do anything at the other grands' home or at her home.

I was beginning to think my expectations were unreasonable, but maybe not.

Neat and straight are relative terms! Their idea of neat will not be your idea. Like I said, I require a once a month "spotless" clean for hygenic reasons. After that, I just close the door........

Also depends on the kid. Some kids are just not going to be able to keep thier rooms clean. They are too disorganized inside to be that organized outside. So, it really depends on the kid.

I'm thinking that these are your grand children who are coming for a extended stay? If they are just visiting, then just be grandma - don't worry about clean!! That's the point of being a grandparent and having a grandparent - all the rules get broken and it's FUN!!!

oops - we cross posted.

If my kids go to my MIL's house and behave badly, she would call me up and give me an earful a/b not teaching my kids properly LOL :-D She's even stricter than me.

I think the whole point of training my kids is because I want them to be a joy for whom they stay with. They are expected to be even better at other people's house than at our house. Some kids aren't well prepared by their parents and when they came over (for playdates or extended stay), they are such a pain to have. Nobody wants to hang around a little brat, even Grandmas :-)

"I'm the grandmother not a parent. There are differences of opinion between the mom and dad as to how the children are "groomed" for maturity.
When she's here it's hard to get her to do things, because she's not made to do anything at the other grands' home or at her home.
I was beginning to think my expectations were unreasonable, but maybe not."

If you were the parent, and the one SETTING the rules, I'd say your expectations aren't unreasonable at all. You'd need to tailor them for the specific kid, but allow a few months for a training phase, and presto!, you're in business. But since her parents don't expect/enforce those kinds of rules, I really wouldn't suggest that you do -- at least, not many rules, and not without explicit up-front explanations.

I vividly remember visiting my grandparents for a week or two with my sister when I was about that age -- maybe a bit older. While we had some chores at home, I thought we were guests at Grandma's antique-filled house. Anyway, she had all of these expectations for what we should and should not do -- no wet hair, always wear shoes, 'seen and not heard'(?!), 'yes Ma'am', make the bed first thing, then don't sit on it during the day! Well, these 'rules' were all brand new to me; and the experience of breaking unknown rule after unknown rule after unknown rule (and therefore being considered a very rude child!) was a very memorable (and unpleasant) experience for me. My relationship with that grandmother never fully recovered...

As an adult homeowner, you're absolutely within your rights to have rules for proper conduct in your home, and an 11 year-old, (once told of them) should be able to follow them. But please don't let your desire for order and structure diminish your primary job as a Grandmother -- to ADORE these kids!

sweeby, it's the parents who are not able to agree on how much should be expected of my granddaughter.

I truly enjoy any time I can spend with my grandkids, but I don't allow wet towels on the rug. Food and drinks in the bedrooms are a no-no. And if you take toys and games out to play, they need to be picked up after they're done playing. The 3 year old is better about following these rules than the 11 yr old is.

But I won't give up.

I agree 100% with sweeby. I'm going to also add that as a grandparent it is in your best interest to not take sides when the parents differ. Just say something like "I know you guys will work it out". Even if you feel VERY strongly one way (which you do) what I assume is your daughter in law will always feel judged by you and it will always feel uncomfortable for it. You want to see your grandchild often and you want her to want to bring them over. Just don't take sides. It'll be easier in the long run for you. This is your son's battle, not yours.

Ok, as a grandma, you are allowed to have rules at your house. It is okay to say that some things are okay in one place and not in another. My grandmother had a house full of antiques, too, but we never felt like guests. We knew that running around was okay outside, but not inside. We did tend to take stairs two at a time and LOVED sliding down the banister. I do remember doing lots of exploring way up in the attic rooms and in the gardens and being involved in the kitchen more than at home. I think we were kept pretty well-occupied. Now I have lots of those antiques in my house and the neighbor kids love to come over. Sometimes, I worry when one who is getting a little big for it sits in one of the old child rockers, but all in all, I only speak up when absolutely necessary (and it is only necessary for kids from one family).

I would do as sweeby suggested-just adore those kids while at the same time showing them some structure ("Come on, let's make beds together and then have a picnic breakfast!").

Left the computer for a bit and so many posts in between starting and finishing mine. It's all been said. Sorry for the unneeded advice!!!! Sounds like you have it under control at your end. Sweeby and geogirl1 said it all.

My son is 11 and does all of the above plus more. He manages the kitchen trash (has definite opinions about bag brands!) and puts deals with the barrels on trash day. He is helpful with the regular housework. He's the kind of person who loves to be busy and do projects. Give him a messy closet and he'll have it organized in no time.

MIL lives with us and feel that DS is given too many chores. I'd prefer to have a kid who is resourceful and can manage on his own.

Oh my goodness I thought you were the parent Mona, sorry. I'm sure being the grandparent (which I'm not) must be very hard because there are lines you don't want to cross yet at the same time....

Even though I had my daughter very young at 17, I was on my own and raising her independently. As kids, our parents were strict and consistent. I followed that same rule of thumb with my own daughter because it seemed to work for my parents. I remember one time my mother actually scolded me in front of my daughter when I asked her not to interrupt a conversation. I was so mad and felt completely disrespected. I still remember to this day pulling my my mother out of hearing range from my kiddo's ears and telling her that she shouldn't undermine me in front of my daughter. She had raised her kids and now it was my turn to raise mine. She was shocked I said that to her, but afterward she always respected my position. She never said anything to me again unless I asked for her advise, which I did often. I felt terrible, and knew that was hard for her obviously, she knew better than I did from experience. I know I'll have to respect those boundaries as well if and when my own daughter has children and that will be equally as hard.

I don't think your expectations are unreasonable at all, but do feel crossing those boundaries will make matters worse. I feel badly that your feelings are not the same as the majority. In the end it's the kids who won't learn all the skills they need.

One thing that I have learned as a parent is that praise is 10 times, no make that 100 times more effective at changing behavior than criticism is. And that probably goes for DIL too, LOL, but I have no actual experience with them.

Other than that, what Geogirl and Sweeby said.

My daughter just turned 9, and she does all of those things. For sure, an 11 year old can and should be able to do them.

My grandmothers had different styles, but we absolutely knew what was allowed with one or the other, even if it was different from our parents. I think grands can and should have their own rules that might be different. Teaches kids yet another aspect of life!

My kids always behaved differently for Grandma than they did for me. I could not EVER get my son to pick up his legos, but he never, ever left them out at Grandmas.

At 11 she is certainly old enough to learn the rules. The incident with the 3 yo was probably a good lesson for her, next time she'll learn she's got to put up her stuff (at least at Grams).

My kids were working with us at our business when they were 11...even younger for DS, so doing the things you've noted is 100% acceptable for me.

Mona, to me, it all depends on the kid & parent. I do a lot for my kids; because one day they will be out on their own and have to do it for themselves. I'm a stay at home mom & do just about everything myself because I'm here. I'm happy if they do their homework; pick up after themselves & keep their room semi-decent.

My rule of thumb has always been if they did not do the rooms; I could be found going in there with bags.. one for trash, another to stash in the attic with stuff they did not put away. You don't take care of it, it goes till you learn to care for the stuff still in your room. Neither of my kids are good at organizing but are fine if I do the room set up; they do put things back where they got it.

I've had an ant problem with both kids & realistically, that fell on me; so I make sure the rooms are decent once a week & we're all happy. My once a week is cleaning glass, running the vac & wiping dressers/desks.

Not all kids know how to clean a room or to keep it clean. I had a neighbor who's daughter used to sit there & cry because she had no clue where to start because it was such a mess.

As far as kids helping you when they come to your house; why not? Maybe you have more patience to teach them how to do things.

I think that the loss of the spray should be a tip-off not to leave stuff where the 3 yr. old can get it.

I never cared if my kids picked up their rooms--if it got too bad (moldy plates not withstanding), I'd issue some sort of ultimatum about shoveling it out and that everyone was grounded until that was done. Otherwise, I shut the doors--I don't have to go in there. Kids have very little autonomy in their lives, and they need a private space. Yes, clean clothes should go in drawers, but it's not a hill I'd chose to die on.

Glasses, plates, bowls--that's a hill I'd get a wound on, at least. Pick 'em up, put 'em in dishwasher or sink.

Homework--come home, eat something, start in. At 11, my daughter knew the drill, and did it. I didn't nag, didn't cajole, just set the rule and enforced it. Having a set time and place (in this case, our dining room table) to do it made it a routine.

My parents were VERY strict with us, but, she is such a pushover with her grandkids. She does everything for them, feeds them anything, plays games with them, and really enjoys her grandkids. But, none of us have them over there everyday, maybe, once every other week, my DS spends the night, so DH and I can go out. My DS thinks his grandma hangs the moon! However, it does take about a day to get him back on our schedule. My mom always warned us that she raised her kids, and her grandchildren would be spoiled rotten by her! She said that is how her mom did it, and she has the fondest memories of her grandmother. My DS and his cousins are very good for her, except one. But, she just sends him home if he gets too hard to handle.

My mom (Grandma) doesn't expect for toys to be all picked totally until it is time to go home. Everyone knows my mom was a clean freak growing up and still, but, she picks up a lot after the grandchildren, so it doesn't get too bad.

I don't always like what she lets them do, but, I am letting her enjoy her grandchildren and them enjoy her. I have to bite my tongue quite a bit!

Now, if she had to take care of them all the time, I am sure things would be different. We don't like taking advantage of my parents with watching our kids, so they enjoy the time they have with them more.

It is our job to make sure DS acts appropriatley around other people, and to respect his elders, not just Grandma and Grandpa.

I agree with Cyn, set rules in your own house and enforce them to make your life easier and to let her know you believe she is totally capable of being responsible. Kids will adapt to different guidelines if they are clearly explained and consistently enforced.

My children have chores and are expected to be responsible for their school work. Of course under this umbrella there are times when they need help staying focused. Clothes, pets, dishes, wood, bathrooms, and garbage fall into their work load.

I work at my children's school and I firmly say every year to my child's' teacher that "their" relationship at school is between them, I will not hover nor will I be running home at lunch if they forget their homework. My colleagues seem to appreciate this even though I do cringe a bit when homework is forgotten but hey- any teacher worth their weight knows responsibility must also be taught.

Many of my friends go crazy helping with homework, organizing backpacks, studying etc.and then complain because their kids won't do it or can't do it without them...HELLO, of course not!

Chores too, can take a back seat for many families because it does take a lot of energy for parents to enforce them in the beginning. My own opinion is they don't want to deal with the hassle, but surprisingly once kids know there is no way around it the grumbling is minimal.

Perhaps being with Elementary students everyday slants my perspective Mona, but from what I see, very few parents hold their children responsible for anything from homework to their behaviors,it is a great disservice.