Alex--I think I'll pass on the videos if they are all set to that "special" music, or at least watch them without turning on the speakers!

rococo--my DH, who has notoriously questioned certain purchases in the past (do we really need a_____?), has been amazingly open and even encouraging regarding purchases for this reno. He's the one who really wanted to go up a model on the Miele, more so than I did! In fact not only did he not bat an eye about considering the Miele very early on in our info gathering, didn't even want to look into other brands (said, "just get the Miele"). I've learned to accept it when he wants to spend, because I might miss out on the opportunity later on! Actually, he's gotten much better over the years, and I sometimes have to restrain him now, rather than the other way around!!! LOL! Of course, as I mentioned, we are now at the point that we need to look at our figures to make sure we don't need to rein in some of the outflow of cash sooner rather than later.

I will have to ask the plumber about the drain and potential echoing. Maybe the the pipes that attach to the sink itself will be metal (I know he replaced the elbow under a bathroom sink a year or so ago, and used metal, and he might have said that he doesn't like PVC for that application).

We opted against the whole house softener, but will be putting in a filter for the kitchen faucet, the pot-filler, and the fridge. If we decide to put in a house softener at a later date, we can always do that whenever.

Thanks for all the info.

Based on what I've read here and doing further research we've decided to go with the Miele Excella mainly for the auto sensor wash and the full integrated status making it invisible in the cabinetry.

Jerrod - a couple of questions. This is a full kitchen remodel and we are relocating the dishwasher and a second sink to the island. We're going to have to add drain lines from the island anyway - should we add a separate one for the DW?

We almost NEVER use the crystal load on our current Miele. I don't own anything that valuable or fragile and if I did I would wash it by hand. Do you recommend hooking it up to a hot water line and would it really make a difference? Our current setup has one running the tap for quite a while before the hot water gets hot.

If we can, we're going to ask our KD tomorrow if he can work in a second DW but it looks like our kitchen is just too small with everything we need to fit into it.

Thanks for all the advice.

I think you'll be happy with the Miele. If you need to run your hot water for a bit before it gets warm, and you care about energy conservation, I suggest hooking it up to the cold water line -- that way you're not pulling water from your water heater. The Miele uses so little water that it most likely won't get any warm water from your hot line -- that's the case in my home, anyway.

Not sure I am the one to ask about plumbing, but if you are going to run lines, then I would get a fill and drain line run to your dishwasher. It will prevent hearing the sound of splashing water into a disposal at every drain period.

I have never used the crystal cycle but I do like a hot water feed. Now..Sshrivastava is correct in saying that so little water is used. In my case the machine will be started while cleaning up the kitchen so the first two fills(usually prewash and main wash) WILL get hot water because I am using it at the sink, so the hot water is near.

The final rinse may or may not get hot water depending on what else is going on( if I am in the upper floors of the house using hot water then the lines pass the kitchen lines. I also have a whole house tankless WH so it's not like there is a tank of hot water sitting around) But the DW will at least get water that is in the basement which is much warmer than the water that is coming from outside(38-40 degrees in the winter)

I guess I just like the Hot water fill because it has the potential to reduce the cycle time and it does reduce it for me.

However the Miele is not like some dishwashers that expect the homeowner to provide water of at least 120F for best results. It will heat the water to the required temp. Like Sshrivastava says..very little water will be used. This machine uses even less than my previous one. It's scary how it can clean so well with so little.

Without a disposal, would we be hearing that jerrod?

We were introduced to the concept of small qty of water washes with our front load washer 3 years ago (see above). It's still hard to remember to use small amounts of laundry detergent (sometimes I zone out, and start filling the cap, and realize, and have to pour back most of what I'd poured!). I hope we do better remembering with the DW!

I personally don't mind the sound of the dishwasher draining -- I've lived with that sound my entire life, so it's expected. :) The noise has nothing to do with a disposal, it has to do with the fact that the noise rises through the sink drain holes.

If it won't break your budget to add a separate drain line for your dishwasher, then go for it. Remember, however, that if the drain is less than 8" above the floor, you will have to pop a little cap somewhere in the dishwasher to assist in drainage -- this should be explained in your dishwasher's installation instructions. If you do not do this, you may have drainage issues and the potential of drain water backing up into your dishwasher.

I chose a cold water feed for a couple of reasons:

• I would need to run the hot water for several minutes at the sink before filling the line with hot water for the DW, and this wastes water. Washing the sink and cleaning up after loading the DW doesn't always draw enough hot water into the line for us.
• Since the Miele is so advanced, I prefer that the dishwasher decide the exact temperature it needs for any given cycle.

You certainly can't go wrong either way. Providing your DW with immediately available hot water will cut down on cycle times.

The plumber will be here for the inspection tomorrow. If I remember I'll ask him about drains, piping, and DW hook-up questions. I'll probably be running around getting ready for work, and will forget to ask him anything!

I don't think a cold water hook-up would benefit us in any way (and as you pointed out ss, would increase our cycle times), so we'll likely stick with a hot water hook-up. I'm sure you're right, we can't go wrong either way (we're getting a great DW!).

If you can get a Miele certified installer to install your unit, it will double your manufacturer's warranty to two years.

Is that written anywhere? I'll print it out and ask our plumber if he is Miele ceritified, and show him the print-out, if you know where I can find it.

It may be written but they widely acknowledge they do that.

If not, don't worry. I just got a Miele oven and when I registered I learned that the extended warranty is very reasonable, $199. It covers parts and labor for 4 years. I plan to get it at the end of the year as my oven was merely installed, not certifably. I'm not much on those usually but this one seems especially reasonable and long.

That does sound pretty reasonable, although one would think that a Miele DW shouldn't need to be serviced for a lot longer than 4 years! LOL!

This may be a stupid question...but why do you even NEED a dishwasher with 6 kids? Isn't that what they are there for??

Well, in case they are too young, or you're having a tough time motivating them, we have a Miele and love it.

I hesitated about getting the extended warranty because my previous model went 10 years without a single call,also I think in Europe they basically offer the extended time period for free. I usually would NOT do the EW thing but I decided that since this was a brand new model(later found out it had been out in Europe since 2004) and more electronic, and the fact that I was redoing everything in the kitchen and the cost of the warranty was pennies comparied to everything else - so I decided to get it.

The extended warranty adds four more years to their stated warranty and there are some statements about them replacing the entire unit if they have to make a service call for the same problem 3 times. Parts and Labor is covered and travel up to 50 miles is also covered. So I got it.

I think that's a good deal -- do you know if it will cover 4 years beyond the automatic warranty extension through a certified installer? It cost me $180 to have it installed, which doubled my warranty to 2 years. If I buy the 4 year, will I then have a 6 year warranty or will it overlap with the 1 year installer extension?

Cat_mom, I don't know if it's written, but if you call Miele they will acknowledge the program. When your certified installer finishes his installation, he will give you a signed piece of paper as your proof of certified installation and warranty extension.

Sshrivastava
I don't have the paper work in front of me right now, but I think it said the standard warranty. I figure it is still OK although I should call and ask because I like the idea of six years. I had mine installed by the certified installer.

Also you are supposed to keep the sales receipt with the warranty, so I have everything in one big folder

How did you guys find certified installers? I am pretty sure that our plumber will be doing our install (I believe it's included in the price of the whole job he's doing here for us anyway), but it might be worth looking into.

Also, how did you extend your warranties; when you registered your DW? Did you have to call them to do that?

No, you don't have to call Miele, but I honestly don't know what to do -- the installer said don't do anything, just hang on to the paper and if I needed warranty service in the 2nd year then all I had to do was show the paperwork and it would be taken care of.

You used to be able to find dealers and certified installers by using the web site Miele.com. You could do this by entering your zip code. I just checked and I can't find that function anymore but the site does provide phone numbers to call. This is another thing Miele U.S.A. is being stupid about...removing useful functionality from their web site....unless they are in the process of revamping it or something.

I purchased my EW from their web site, and they sent me the contract papers via regular mail.

I called Miele re a certified installer for my oven. No one in my area. But call their tech support as they have a list of people.

I queried about the EW. It starts when the regular warranty stops. If you register the appliance online for the warranty, as you go through that process it asks you if you want to buy the EW. You can buy it right then. I opted to wait until the end of the year -- not a problem at all they told me when I called to asked about it. Any time before the end of the regular warranty.

Five years is a long time and while I usually don't buy EWs, with an electronic oven I thought it might be a good idea. I should have done the same for my DW but didn't know about it then.

I'll see what DH thinks about the extended warranty. Usually we don't take them, but if it includes parts, labor, etc. for 5 years, it might be worth it.

After reading oodles of good things about the Miele on this forum, I was prepared to get one--until I actually tried to use one on display. None of my large items would fit and, overall, the unit seemed quite small. It was something I never considered until I actually saw the dishwasher in person, since I have a European dishwasher now (Bosch) and haven't had a problem. (I think, maybe, it's the Miele's silverware rack that pushes everything a bit lower; it also seems just enough more narrow to make a difference.) I ended up going with two top-of-the-line Bosches again because I was happy with the one we've had for six years. My advice would be to take the largest thing you put in the dishwasher now and make sure it fits in a Miele. I'm sure they're great, but if what I want to wash doesn't fit, they'd do me no good.

My wife and I looked at the Miele dishwashers yesterday and I have to say that agree, they seem to be a bit smaller than some of the others.

Now we don't have huge dishes and it may not be a problem so we still have the Miele at the top of our short list. I really liked the silverware drawer and I think it probably actually opens up more space in the racks below (than brands that use a standard silverware holder). I'd be curious to know though if it really is more narrow inside than other comparable brands? I think I'll take my tape measure the next time I visit (this weekend hopefully) and see for myself...

The actual physical interior size shouldn't be the issue, it's the way the racks work. Some brands/models with larger interiors can actually hold less due to poorly designed rack configurations.

And yes, the cutlery rack does free up an amazing amount of space in the bottom. I could never go back to anything but a Miele.

See, that kind of talk makes me just want to go out and buy the two Meile's for our new kitchen! :)

I think you're right that the rack design and configurations in the Miele lines are fantastic and are very important as far as capacity.

With all the positives coming from Miele DW owners it's very difficult not to seriously consider buying one and I suspect we probably will.

lakeshore, you will not be sorry if you go with it. Only a few posters over the last 3 years have not liked the Miele. It happens.

But I've used many different brands and have not found one that ends up holding as much. No matter how small it may appear it isn't. It's made a huge difference in the ease of using my kitchen, as I detailed above. That and my farmsink. I just couldn't ever give either one of those up.

I don't know which large items didn't fit where when susanandmark tried it but as the middle rack adjusts up and down, there hasn't been anything in my kitchen I've found that doesn't fit one way or the other.

However, Bosch is also a good dw.

rococo--everytime I read your posts, I feel that I just can't wait 'til we get our Miele! You are such a great advertisement for them. I hope they appreciate Miele owners like you! :-)

Keep in mind that the racks in many Miele's are adjustable up/down/and tilt.

Also some of the racks have the stemware feature which lets you load stemware in the middle and in the bottom rack. Even if I don't have stemware I load glasses in the bottom rack with no problems.

Also some models let you load only in the bottom rack using the tall items cycle and then you can load tall items like cookie sheets, pizza pans...along with other stuff...

catmom, I sure didn't sound like an ad when I got the Incognito. It drove me nuts because it wasn't drying the dishes at all. It went on for months like that but folks here kept urging me to call Miele and I kept calling and finally got the head of the tech department who happened to take my call (though I didn't know who I was speaking to) and within 5 minutes he had it adjusted. As a result, I have very long cycles because the final rinse had to be hotter than normal to get it to dry.

Since then, it's worked perfectly. And i think I like the brand so much because it actually delivers what it promises. We have an apartment with an old GE dw in there and the difference is pretty dramatic.

I've had ongoing problems with appliances in our house since they were installed 3 years ago. The washing machine was replaced, the refrigerator adjusted, the cooktop frame replaced (heat number decals wiping off) and most recently the oven replaced.

I went with the Miele oven largely because no one had a bad word to say and it fit well and the upcharge over my credit for the old one wasn't ridiculous. I am slack-jawed at the performance over the Viking that was removed. Two different worlds.

I have a lot of respect for companies who deliver excellence and stand behind a product that makes my life easier.

Just to follow up, not trying to talk anyone out of any brand. I couldn't fit a good many of my All-Clad pots and pans (skillet, large saute, big saucier) into the new model Mieles. Larger Le Crueset dutch ovens--all of which fit in my current dishwasher--were also a no go, no matter how they were positioned. Salespeople couldn't fit them in either and, trust me, they wanted to make it work very badly. Some people don't wash their pots and pans, so it won't matter to them at all. For me, that made me cross them off the list, though they were super quiet and seemed to perform very well from what I saw.

I think it is funny and educational at the same time reading all this info on dishwashers!!! I never in my life thought that buying a European dishwasher would be the 'best' to own!!! I guess I would be the same way about cooking ranges like all those Wolf ranges!! If I were a young mother(that was a long time ago)and running the dishwasher night and day I would want something that could be repaired easily! I bet you anything you could get a top of the line Sears model with stainless steel and lots of cycles! I will need to buy all new appliances soon and just to make it easier on myself and DH I am going to order all Sears appliances! It must be my age, as long as it is 'middle-of -the-line' I don't care!!! Thanks for all the info though!

It will be interesting to find out if we start putting our pots and pans in the DW when we have our Miele installed.

When I was growing up, we never washed our pots and pans in the DW (KA, when KA's were the best, in the 1970's!). I guess that kind of stuck, because with the exception of a few rare times over the years (DH not available to wash the stuff not DW-bound, just about to run the DW, or....), pots and pans did not see the inside of the DW. Neither did stemware, or my Henckles or Wustoff knives. DH even washed stuff by hand that I would have just put in the DW, just because!

If certain things don't fit (beyond the day-to-day dishes, flatware and glasses that had better fit!), then they won't fit I guess. If they do, maybe we'll be washing less stuff by hand than we did before!

rococo--I'm glad your problems were resolved, and I am keeping my fingers crossed that we don't have any. I want to be singing my DW's praises right from the start and to infinity (and beyond....!!!)

I have used the pots and pans cycle on my dishwasher and ahave also washed caserols in the machine. My rule is that I will put pots and pans in there but not at the expense of not being able to load anything else. Plus Pots and pans uses 170F water so you have to watch what you are putting in there along with them. Now I guess I could run two loads and that would take care of most everything.

SusanandMark....Did the sales people lower and remove all of the the plate inserts in the bottom rack and you still could not get the pans in? Did they remove the top rack so your tall items could get in? Just wondering what they tried.

thanks catmom. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you.

cat_mom: Keep washing your good knives by hand - DWs aren't good for them.

Thanks to you too rococo.

Weissman--I would never put my good knives (incl. Henckles steak knives) in a DW, no matter how special the DW! Don't you worry about that :-)

I also won't be chopping right on my granite countertops with said knives either!

Well, for the high end, there's the Miele Freshwater series. Apparently these run about $4k. Still - a 10-minute cycle time AND suitable for residential installation.. this isn't a dish tank, it's a regular fill-and-drain automatic DW. Looks like it's the "pro-style range" of DWs.

Here is a link that might be useful: Miele Freshwater G 7856

ill tell you ive had a lot of dw's. ive had bosche, paykel dd, asko, thermador, frigidair, kitchen aid, and kenmore elite. some here may laugh and some may think im nuts... but to be honest the 2 ive had that were the best at overall cleaning, noise (not the quietest but def far from loud), build (durable), and just overall performance were my kitchen aid and my current kenmore elite (both whirlpool products). i personally didnt like the bosche niether did the wife. it just didnt do the same job of overall cleaing with baked on stuff or stuff that was sitting for a while like during the dinner before going in. my elite cleans pretty much anything i throw at it. ive put burned glass pans and pots in ther and they have not once come out dirty.. like i said not the most quiet but far from the likes of frigidair and others.. actually my unit is super quiet now that i "modified" it..lol.. how??

i own a car audio shop.. we use a product called dynamat extreme to kill vibrations and deaden the metal in a car and to keep out the road noise. dynamat makes a product called extreme which is a butyl based with foil top layer and its crazy sticky and holds up to the heat of the dw.. i layered the outside of the whole stainless body with a single layer of this and now you can literally barely know its working it made that dramatic of a difference..

my 2 paykel dd's id never go there again.. unreliable and way to many breakdowns and issues with them. i prob had the service guys here more than i used the first one till the replaced it and the second wasnt much better.. it broke 4 times in under 10 months. my older ka dw lasted me for near 7 years with one minor issue. my elite is going on 2 years without a single issue nada zip... i no longer believe in buying the most expensive fanciest styled appliances out thet maybe in a stove id pay for all the features like induction or in the wall etc.. but for a overall daily used dw id say under 1k$ (my model is 900) and your covered.

a few things to know about good cleaning though.. make sure your water is good... meaning do you need a softener?? THIS MADE THE LARGEST IMPROVEMENT I COULD HAVE EVER MADE IN OUR HOME!! IT WAS THAT DRASTIC... check for tds (total dissolved solids, iron etc), there are also products that keep the interior spotless.. we use lemi shine in ours a couple times a week even though we have soft water the inside of our elite after near 2 years looks like the day we bought it seriously.. that stuff is awesome.. i also dont use any specific detergent either.. everything from the powerballs to liquid to even wal mart powder this unit cleans everything..again go for the euro models if you like but ill tell you all the ones i had every one broke and was a real pain in the neck to get repaired parts took forever and they were limited to who fixed them... just my overall thoughts..

For those saying to get the top of the line Kenmore DW, I was just in there and the sales person said they are made by Bosch so they are "European". Sears doesn't "make" any of their appliances. Their fridges are the easiest to spot - you can see which of the "Kenmore" models are made by GE, Whirlpool, Amana. The DW's are the same, just a collection from various manufacturers slightly modified. The Kenmore isn't quite as quiet as the Bosch but very close. I saw something in the store that stated the loudest DW today is quieter than the quietest DW from 5 years ago so it is virtually impossible to buy a "loud" DW now.

One complaint I've seen about the "European" type DWs is their filtration allows some of the fine food waste to be shot back up into the wash stream and as one poster stated, they seem to not have a hard food disposer (but I haven't checked that out myself).

As a gift to my family I went into Sears after researching appliances for months (mostly high end such as Viking, Thermador, Jenn-Air, LG, Bosch) to purchase all new kitchen appliances in their 8 year old home. Their home was a custom built house but as it was their second home they didn't spend much time on the "details" and went with the builder specs for GE Profile/Monogram appliances. They have lasted all these years, no issues as all, but I wanted to get them nice top of the line stainless steel appliances.

As some of the previous comments have pointed out, the Sears Kenmore "brand" are actually rebadged manufacturers. With the purchase of Maytag last year, Whirlpool is the largest North American (if not international) appliance manufacturer, owning Amana, KitchenAid, Magic Chef, Hoover and Jenn-Air. Whirlpool is the main manufacturer of the Sears Kenmore and Kenmore Elite and Pro lines, with a few exceptions. For example, the Kenmore Elite Trio refridgerator is actually the LG french door fridge.

I decided on purchasing all Kenmore Elite line appliances, including the new Kenmore Elite Dishdrawers, as they were rated highly by consumer reports and independent appliance contractors and home builders. With the exception of the refrigerator (just completed the kitchen with the Kenmore Elite Trio in Stainless Steel which is LG, the only non-whirlpool company owned manufactured Kenmore appliance), all the appliances have been installed and are very impressive. We have used the dishdrawers a few times already and have been extremely impressed with how quiet they run (I have owned Fisher & Paykel dishdrawers and by comparison these are huge improvements). The Kenmore Elite Dishdrawers are effecient (a smart-sensor option adjusts needed water and washing/rinsing cycles based on load amount and turbidity of water) and stylish as well. I highly recommend the Kenmore brand, and Sears offers 3 and 5 year Master Protection Plans that are great values, including free of charge annual maintenance of each appliance as well as all parts and labor for any situation. Very impressed...

One more thing, the Kenmore Elite dishwashers are NOT made by Bosch (I spoke with the company via phone and in person as well as researched this online). The Kenmore Elite Dishdrawers I purchased have disposals built in as well as a filter in the base to "catch" particles that are not disposal friendly, such as pieces of glass or bone, that might otherwise damage the dishes in the load. In fact, the Kenmore Elite Dishdrawer has a warning that the filter "basket" at the bottom of each drawer should be examined often to make certain that it isn't full, and it is easy to raise the rack the dishes rest on over the spin jet to unlock and empty the filter basket. The comments posted by ttmastu are inaccurate, check it out at Sears...

The Kenmore Elite range is rebadged Electrolux (Frigidaire).

Rather than hard facts, there seems to be a difference of opinion among those who should know. I had a question about a Bosch that the Sears salesman couldn't answer. While I stood there, he called the Bosch rep who mentioned that the same feature was found on the Kenmore euro-style (Elite) which Bosch also makes - as ttmatsu stated. Hmmm...

Well, if money really is no object, you could get a Miele Freshwater.. 20 minute cycle, true commercial performance without having to mess with a dish tank - and several thousand dollars, not counting the extra circuit and dedicated drain you need. But it's the best you can get.

Asko devotees, where are you? Chime in your two bits and sing the praises of your favourite washer.

Asko devotees, where are you?

*raises hand* I've had mine for more than four years now. It's their second-to-bottom-of-their-line from the day, but it has the same tub and plumbing as their most expensive DWs. Quiet, uses less water than almost anything else out there, well-built, and I still get surprised sometimes when I find how much I can stuff into it and get it all clean. I would buy another one tomorrow -- but I shouldn't need another DW for another decade or so.... :-)

Fabulous thread!

Thanks to this forum, we're set on a Miele dishwasher, now just deciding on the Optima vs Excella.

Did I understand some of the above poster correctly in that Excella allows you to remove the upper rack for washing tall items, but Optima does not? (I haven't been able to figure this out from Miele's website; it's a big point for me, since I'd love to be able to put our big trays into the DW!)

You can remove the upper rack on all Miele model as far as I know.

The Excella and Laperla allow you to remove the upper rack and then you can select one of their cycles that washes only in the bottom. This is so you can wash tall items that would extend up beyond the upper rack.

I am not sure if the other models permit this. Perhaps you can remove the upper rack in the other models, but the manuals for these models suggest you don't for safety reasons. I don't understand that but that is what it says.
The others models also don't have a bottom only cycle.

For the Laperla and the Excella the manual also says not to remove the top rack unless you are using the cycle that washes only in the bottom.

Another Asko fan here...had mine 2 years. I got the next to Top of the Line the 3251. It's very convenient and loads anything that I've thrown at it. The top rack also comes out and the middle spray arm pops off so you can wash extra tall items like furnace filters and the like. Like Steve_o said, its very quiet and cleans fabulously. It also goes for several hundred less than the comparable Miele's. I decided I did not want to pay for a water softener that I don't need. I already have a great big one in my basement. I guess it would make sense if you were hooking the Miele up to kitchen cold, which is typically not softened by a whole house softener. My Asko is hooked to hot. The Asko is great at fitting all the weird stuff we actually use every day...endless sippy cups, lids, food processor bits and bowls, blender bowls. The top rack has this wide slanting shelf that so many things fit on.

The Asko also dries the dishes very nicely. Good luck shopping!

Another vote for KitchenAid here - we've had our top of the line SS model for 3+ yrs now and no problems. It's very quiet, has several cycles.

If you are DW shopping, do take some of your dishes and pots/pans with you to see how they fit. Our KA has an adjustable upper rack so I can put huge bowls up there or very tall items. I was all set to buy dish drawers until I tried putting our dishes and other items in the display unit. That was an immediate turnoff for us. The Miele was alot less flexible with respect to the upper rack but they may have changed that in the last 3 yrs.