We were thrilled with our appliance purchases from Homeeverything, but almost bought from AJMadison who seemed just as good, but charged more for shipping than Homeeverything. I really don't care how the discounts "work" as you say; I just care that I get the best price, along with careful and fast shipping.

What you haven't explained is why you called the "factory". What factory? Who did you call? Did AJMadison indicate the item was in stock or not in stock? If the appliance is in stock and ready to be shipped from AJMadison's warehouse, and you are receiving a discount, why did you need to check on what source your salesman is deriving the discount? Why is the source of the discount important? Why do you call a discount offer "this sort of salesmanship"? I do not understand why you are asking if they are "jerks" as you said. I cannot tell from your OP the source of your derision.

I'll link a thread where I detail our experience with Homeeverything, and others chime in with their experiences with AJMadison.

Here is a link that might be useful: Thread asking about Homeeverything or AJMadison

Thanks for the link, fixin. The "factory" makes the appliance I'm interested in, and it is "the factory" that the salesman at AJMadison said they called. Only they didn't; so what were they doing? They offered me a discounted rate, and he did so by justifying the necessity of a call to the "factory". That's really my question -- why would he call "the factory", or more to the point, why would he say he'd called the factory and then not have done so?

Addressing your other questions: item not in stock; I didn't intend to check on the source but determine whether the discount was available from another - it was in this way that it became clear no call to "the factory" had ever taken place. It wasn't me who suggested this call, it was the salesman who used it as justification ... and again, that's what I'm trying to figure out: why? The reaason the source of the discount is important is to know who's paying for the discount: the big manufacturer or the small business or the littlest of all, the salesguy.

Sorry to convey derision; it would be more appropriate had I managed to covey my simple confusion and frustration at the darkness. All the wheeling and dealing is confusing; it's hard for me to even know if and when I'm pushing too much. If markups are 100%, then I won't feel badly about asking and getting a discount. Instead if people are trying to ekk out a living on a 3% markup, then my asking for a discount is like taking food from their little one's mouths. potentially at least. (and often they state as much!).

"I'm trying to figure out: why?"

because you want a discount.

"All the wheeling and dealing is confusing;"

yep, but you could choose an appliance that has regulated pricing and eliminate the back and forth.

"If markups are 100%"

They are not - not even in the same ballpark on major appliances. It's a bit more than 3% though. Typically it's in the 10-20% neighborhood- and that's gross margin out of which overhead and commissions are subtracted.

Aliris - what does your comment "America is so not Canada" mean? Are you in Canada, and shopping for good prices from U.S. websites? If so, does your comment mean you feel Anerican prices for appliances are so much better?

I ordered all my appliances from AJ Madison. I was very happy with the prices - free delivery too. I did have a delay with one appliance that was not in stock since they apparently waited until the date my other items were to be shipped to "order" the one item that was not stocked. And I did send a few emails that went unanswered but a phone call took care of the issues I was inquiring about. I would use them again.

Antss, does the 10 - 20% margin also apply to the price controlled models such as Wolf, Miele etc...? The reason I ask is I recall reading a post from someone who claimed that he got significant discounts on Wolf appliances by negotiating with the distributor/Wolf Rep. He made it seem like they had very significant margins. I can't seem to find this post now.

Oh come on, antss -- why are you so cantankerous? when I said I was trying to figure out why, I was trying to figure out why the salesman said he had called the factory when he hadn't. I am of course trying to score a discount, but I want to know who is getting screwed in the process. This product is supposed to have a regulated pricing, and that is one of many confusing things about all of this.

Looking a gift horse in the mouth is the hammer hanging over all of this. By questioning the situation and trying to figure out what is the right thing, what is going on, who benefits where and who is getting ripped off, well, I am looking my own gift horse in the mouth, potentially. But I am hoping many might benefit. So I'd appreciate not getting derided for the effort! I appreciate the knowledge on the subject you bring to bear: for example that markup is typically 10-20%. That jibes with what I've been learning elsewhere and I appreciate some confirmation.

Fixin -- I was living in Canada last year where the retail scene is definitely calmer, for better or worse. It's just the contrast I was reacting to, the whole scene surrounding consumerdom. Its very, very different. And I hadn't realized that *at all* before living there.

FYI, let me repeat here a summary I just wrote about what I think I've learned in this process. It might help focus anyone else's thinking on the subject of appliance pricing and internet retailers vs brick-and-mortar places. Just ignore it, of course, if this is duller than dishwater to you! Or if you think I'm dumber than $%#^ for being troubled by it all....

As I see it, there is essentially an "upcharge" on items purchased not via these seat-of-the-pants internet companies which amounts to insurance: insurance against the rare problem due to manufacturer problem, shipping, order fulfillment, whatever. The discount places seem typically to bluster through any necessity to satisfy the customer; conversely the small guys work hard to do so. I think also the 'denominator' of these internet companies is huge -- they service vast numbers of customers -- and a comparatively few percentage of these interactions are problematic. This is to say that problems are rare, which is the circumstance for which one buys insurance: to hedge against rare, but expensive events.

My problem, as a consumer, is to determine what is a reasonable cost for this insurance, leavened by the responsibility for contributing to the value added of a retail setup that serves my needs, namely one with knowledgeable sales staff and literal showrooms, etc.

Further, in the case of price-controlled items, "the factory" seems to sell only to a distributor, not to a consumer directly. Sometimes this distributor will offer a discount to their retailers which is passed along to the consumer, in full or in part I don't know (presumably it varies). It is through the distributor only, and not "the factory" that such a discount as mentioned could possibly be in play. In the case of price-controlled items, it would be a violation of the manufacturer's terms for a discount to be being offered.

BTW -- while any given individual may personally have experienced a trouble-free exchange with some of these internet retailers (e.g. AJMadison, IraWoods) - a quick internet search reveals scads of disgruntled customers. When something goes wrong, your chances of satisfaction are slim it seems -- though the denominator of 'gone wrong' orders is also difficult to determine (as well as 'no problem' orders).

Thus there is value, potentially, for a reviewing agency like Consumers' Reports regarding this sort of issue vs this site with its anecdotal evidence. Reviewing BBB's report may be a little helpful but I've heard of a lot of corruption surrounding that agency lately too (I think there was a recent report on NPR about this, though it's possible I'm mistaken about the agency it was referencing; I get distracted with driving and can sometimes get such critical points wrong!).

I offer this as partial explanation of what on earth I was obliquely referring to in my posts. I'm embarked on an effort to understand who is getting what when I buy an expensive appliance, and thus what I can morally ask for or take.

Good luck to you, fellow citizens!

fixin......thanks for the link to the Homeeverything vs. AJ Madison. I'm going to explore ordering from them, and I'll report back on my experience. Thanks!

Fixed pricing is just a marketing gimmick to make people think that nobody is getting a better deal then they are. Nothing upsets people more than learning that someone else got a better deal for the same product. Not logical but that's human nature. Saturn made a splash in the auto industry with the no haggle sticker price. I went with a friend looking to buy to help negotiate. She didn't think it was possible and told me to prove it when I told her they will always find a way negotiate if conditions were right. We went in the last week of the quarter and after about 2 hours, she got her car for sticker price but she got $4500 for her trade in plus a bunch of extras and upgrades. The BB value had a high of about $3000 if it was in excellent condition but it would stall randomly and needed a new transmission plus probably an engine rebuild, which is why she decided to buy a new car.

What you are confused about is probably a conversation between AJMadison and their distributor to see if some rebate or incentive was still in effect. Some of these are advertised and meant to pass directly to the consumer while others are incentives for dealers to push a certain line. There could have been an incentive that just expired or had other conditions such as combo purchase and such that he had to verify with the distributor to see if he could still get it. If this was a dealer incentive, he may have given you the full amount to make the sale or, more likely, split it with you to make you happy and still get a bit out of it.

Rest assured, nobody is getting screwed. If it wasn't for the sales person's best interest, he would not have offered it. You were not holding a gun to his head (I hope..) and he can't force the distributor to do something that they don't want. For all you know, the sales person was one sale away from winning some competition between sales people for the box seats to some sporting event or something. In that case, even if he earns no commission on your sale, he'd still get something of value out of it.

Thanks for the reasoned assurance, amcook.

What does your cool and clear head tell you about responsibility to the brick-and-mortar salesman vs internet? Is the little/personalized/knowledgeable seller getting had?

I think you might putting small local retailers on a pedestal. There have been several threads about this, even just yesterday. Personally, I've run into good local shops as well as bad and the same goes for online. It's how the business is run that matters. It could be argued that there is more pressure for local shops to make the sale and justify the showroom.

I don't mean that local shops are more likely to scam you but the "salesmanship" you refer to started out with brick and mortar stores. Bait and switch techniques predate the internet by a century I'd wager. Price fixing and loss leaders are all long standing sales methods. In fact some of these techniques are hard to pull off online because of the amount of competition.

Now I know some will argue that if we don't support local businesses, then they will cease to exist. Honestly, I don't think that's likely to happen. Another truth about people is we are impatient. Satisfying that impatience is worth something to us. How many times have you over paid for something just because you couldn't wait the 2 weeks (or even two days) an online purchase would take. There's also the fear of needing to return something. I have and continue to pay more for products where I know that I can return it trouble free even if it costs a bit more. These are things I put a value on and that value might differer depending on the item in question.

Having said that, appliance purchases are a different class of purchase. Most appliance stores don't have many "live" units so all you are seeing is the chassis. Most large appliance purchases can't be returned without costing extra pickup and restocking fees. These factors reduce the overall value of local brick and mortar locations so maybe the risk is higher that local shops can't compete. Well, that too is an aspect of free market economy. Already, many distributors are taking it upon themselves to set up a central showroom even though they won't/can't sell direct to consumers. This is a service that they provide for a cost. You can bet that manufacturers and online dealers build that cost into the price so ultimately, that drives the price up and supports price points closer to what local retailers need to show a profit.

Ultimately, if online sales is lucrative enough, then more local retailers would do it. Just look at Eurostoves, they've got a great reputation as both a local brick and mortar as well as an online dealer. Those who live close to the store may net even realize that they sell online. What sets them apart is not their location or a fancy website.. Sorry Trevor. What sets them apart is that they actually believe that good service is good business. It doesn't matter to me if they are across the country or within walking distance. Of course if they were walking distance, I'd probably be there every weekend to see what new toys they have.

jerseyguy - yes, especially those marques.

aliris19 - don't think I'm cantankerous at all. Just call it like I see it. With regard to why a sales weasel would say one thing while meaning another, or stretch the truth , or fib - well, do I really have to spell it out for you? If the item/brand is price controlled then the factory is authorizing the "discount" across the board - to everyone. No need to "call the factory"

There are always disgruntled customers, I don't care if the company is a J.D. Powers' best super top notch 10 years running winner for quality AND service - or a made to order Paris fashion house. No one delivers 100% everyday to everyone.

Regarding your ? about what you can ask for or take- It's America so anything goes really, but be prepared for rejection and/or attitude. See some of my other ramblings on discounts and remember they are EARNED - not given.

amcook - if we (enough people) don't support local businesses, then they will cease to exist - this is an economic certainty. There will be no reason for them be open. If enough local people don't buy, they will either transition to a internet outfit and not need pricey store space or they will close.

Sorry, antss -- what do you mean a discount is 'earned' not given? Do I earn a internet discount by being cosmically Good? Calling and badgering?

And yes, please do spell it out. Presumably "call the factory" is a fib: but why? Just about the only explanation I can think of for the source of the discount is the salesman giving back a cut of his markup. Why hide that?

Though there is another explanation that occurs to me: I forgot that there was an intervening layer, an internet agglomerator's coupon. Perhaps in exchange for clicking through a third party site a discount is offered. Perhaps this third party was "the factory" called. But if so again, why hide this?? Is it just a case of misspeaking? Still seems odd.

Antss -- forgive my thickness and/or naivete, but I think I still need this spelled out: why would an internet retail salesman lie about the source of his discount? Even if there were a price-regulation agreement, I can't see how someone can tell a salesman that if they wish to accept a lesser commission they cannot?

I remain mystified.

Aliris19, re your comments about the "scads of disgruntled customers" of internet retailers (I assume you meant appliance retailers), I had mentioned this issue in my linked thread above. The overwhelming majority of online complaints had to do with the shipper, not the retailer. I asked the Homeeverything salesperson quite directly about this issue, and he admitted to me that it has been problematic to control their subcontracted shippers, which can be 2nd- or 3rd-removed from their control, especially for more remote locations. I assume this problem would be experienced by any retailer relying on freight shippers; when the retailers can use reputable shippers like UPS they do, but that can be very expensive for the more remote locations, an expense they'd need to pass on to their customers, rather than offer free freight shipping. Since I am outside of Chicago, Homeeverything had many competitors to choose from to ship to me, and my shipping experience was excellent. In summary, please do not condemn the online retailers across the board for this specific shipping issue. What's more, in the time I have been on this Forum, I have read dozens of posts about problems with delivery from local retailers (guys dropped the boxes, turned them upside down, never showed up, brought the wrong item, left it on the driveway in the rain, dragged it across the floor, etc.etc.).

I have to agree with Amcook and Weissman. You are putting the local retailer on some kind of pedestal, yet meanwhile, you have gone to greater lengths than most to find the best discount. By the way, what amount of discount are we talking about here? You haven't mentioned a dollar amount or percentage. That you are dismayed that there is a highly competitive marketplace in America, but no "consumerdom" in Canada, is condescending. That you are obsessing over the source of the discount sounds self-righteous to me; it seems you want to vent on this thread about your responsibility to the local retailer in a disingenuous way. To wit, your statement, "I am of course trying to score a discount, but I want to know who is getting screwed in the process."

antss,

I agree that if not enough people feel the need for local shops then they will cease to exist. But, forgive my bluntness, so what? Something that serves no value should close down. Ok, I'm being a bit harsh but it's just to make the point that if the service a local shop provides doesn't justify the prices they charge and people go elsewhere, then that's just the nature of the beast.

There are plenty of examples of local businesses that have competitive pricing and online presence thriving today. I used Eurostoves as an example of one such but there are also other examples. I was in the market for some specialized combination cable (dual rg6 w/ dual cat5e) and found it online. My first thought was I wish I could find it locally since I needed it fast so I could put it in before drywall went up. Turns out, one of the online vendors has a showroom about 15miles away and they were one of the cheapest. I drove over and got my cable cheaper than most places that didn't have a showroom local or otherwise. I simply do not accept the premise that brick and mortar locations are unsustainable or deserve higher margins simply by their existence. If they provide better service or faster service or are more responsive, then *that* is worth something to me.

Unfortunately, most of the attitude I get at these places is simply, "we're local so you should pay more." When it came to helping me get a $2 part under warranty it wasn't the *local* dealer I bought my cooktop from that helped me but Trevor who didn't even know my real name at the time who got it taken care of. The local dealer wouldn't even return my phone calls or emails. So, which do you think deserves my business. You say that a discount is earned and not given. I'd say that customers are earned and not given. The stores that go out of business are often those that are run as if they are entitled to capture all local customers and don't have to compete or work to keep their customers.

All I'm saying is, I look at all the factors in deciding where to buy. Many times, I buy local and have found many local shops that have competitive prices so I know it can be done.

What I find weird about this thread (well, one of the things..the whole "calling the factory" is weird, but I digress) is that the OP is treating AJMadison and other online retailers as a completely separate entity from local brick-and-mortar stores. The OP seems to be saying that there is a greater moral responsibility toward brick-and-mortar stores than to online retailers. But, AJMadison IS a brick-and-mortar store. If you live in New Jersey, you would go into the AJMadison store to shop and get saleshelp and see and touch the appliances. The bias against "online retailers" makes no sense. Appliance retailers often are both online and brick-and-mortar, it is very easy to discover which ones are both. If you don't like AJMadison, you can easily find another website which also has a real storefront somewhere, like Abt Appliances or Universal-akb.

Near me is a vacuum store that has been a small neighborhood store for 30 years. I bought my vacuum there, and appreciated the saleshelp and knowledge, and that they remember me when I go in to get bags or whatever. Heck, they opened a website, and now do great business shipping around the country. Really, this hand-wringing over the brick-and-mortar stores vs. internet retailers is misplaced. Just because you are an online retailer doesn't mean you're some corporate behemoth taking the profits away from the little guy. All it means is that you are competing in today's marketplace. As to the discount, a store will offer a discount if they feel they can still make a profit, or get some benefit (like making way for next year's models) whether it's your neighborhood store or AJMadison, and I cannot imagine why one would feel concerned about the source of the discount.

"Something that serves no value should close down"

agreed, wasn't looking for a scrap, just though I'd point out the error. Agree about customers being earned too.

It's a two way street and a balance needs to be struck. Businesses can't treat all customers like time wasting deal sniffing internet ordering sheep any more than customers can view all stores as greedy arrogant lying dimwits that are waiting around for negotiating session.

When you change regions, locales, countries, whatever, you can feel frustration and irritation because you hear "reasons given" that don't correspond to what yu normally hear, and then you find out that the words you heard also don't correspond to reality (as you thought the words ought to mean).

We can then say it was a euphemism or a way of saving face or whatever. But initially it is more comforting when things you hear correspond to what you find when you scratch the surface and see for yourself.

I think there is a lot of mythology surrounding the "deal" when it comes to items that have negotiable prices: appliances and cars...

I think the company or main office has a set minimum price based upon the volume they send to the seller (distributor, retailer whatever). They, in turn have a minimum price for which they can offer it based on overhead and other factors, and within this there is probably a rubric for: if the customer spends $X, if it is the end of the month and they want to meet a quota with the company, etc. With cars, for all I know there is a formula for how long you are in the salesman's office and how many visits you make. ( "Hey Tina What's the price for someone who wastes 3 hours in here trying to get the lowest price?")

"called the factory" is like "I have to go talk to my manager". I think when the car salesman goes to talk to his manager, he asks him/her the price of the day based upon the variables rubric (which he could pull up on his her desktop), and then they spend 20 minutes BSing about something.

I ask: What is the best price you can give me? ____
Will you match a competitor's or online price? --And, I've been told "No, they are higher volume" not always "yes"
Then I either say "Ok, do you want a deposit or do you offer a paid in full discount?, Do you take Visa?" or "Thanks, I'll think about it" Done.

**"I spoke with a salesman who told me he was giving me a discount via "the factory". Yet another at the factory just said that no one had called the factory regarding this discount."**

Boy, that must be a mighty small factory--indeed, a one-man operation. How else to explain why you took the statement of the dude who answered your phone call as the gospel truth and the proof that the AJ Madison guy must have lied to you?

Here are some other perfectly valid interpretations of what the factory guy told you:

(1) No one called about that discount while I was here, and none of my coworkers mentioned such a call to me.

(2) If someone called, there's no record of it because [insert reason: our system isn't set up to make a record of such things; the factory guy your AJ Madison salesman talked to forgot to take notes or forgot to add his notes to the file; our database crashed; etc.].

(3) The AJ Madison guy didn't actually call, he emailed.

(4) The AJ Madison guy didn't call my department; instead, he called a friend of his in a different department here at the factory who helps him out with this kind of thing.

(5) Your salesman called, but I always forget that he's with AJ Madison now because he was with a different store until just recently, so when you asked if AJ Madison had called I mistakenly said no.

(6) Your salesman called and talked about a ton of different things with the guy who sits behind me, but I was distracted/in the men's room/etc. during the 9 seconds that they spent discussing your discount, so when you asked, I mistakenly said no.

Etc.

Ideagirl

Priceless LOL

What I find really bizarre is the OP worrying about taking food out of the salesman's mouth. How ridiculous. I can assure you that salesman don't worry about taking food out of your mouth when they overcharge you or try to sell you extended warranties. Yes, there's a lot of game playing just like with car salesmen, but it's all business - they're not going to sell you things at a loss unless the item is some kind of loss leader to get you into the store and even then they're going to try to get you to switch to a more profitable model.

No worries antss. Just having fun with the discussion.

While we are in agreement that local stores will vanish if nobody uses them, I think that there will always be a desire for local retailers. It's just that the face of that may change. More and more, local retailers are no longer carrying stock (or nearly as much as they use to) and depending on ship-to-store or order from store and ship to home model. Businesses, at least good ones, will find a way to survive. The ones that grasp to the idea that people should shop local because there is a social responsibility are the ones that will fail. Believe it or not, I've seen several small video rental shops still in business. I've often wondered what their secret is since almost all of the others have shut down. Obviously, they've changed their business in such a way to provide some value add service that netflix and the like can't. I think appliance stores will become or be replaced by distributor showrooms where they don't actually sell product but can direct you to local and online dealers. This model is already in place in many areas.

I'll look forward to more distributor showrooms where they don't sell product but instead let you see it installed and working.

I hope this will be in demand, too. People have to ask for it, before it will become commonplace.

You can already get lists of dealers on their web site.

After a disastrous experience with CompactAppliances.com (and then reading reviews of them dating back to 05 showing that they were pulling the same shenanigans then that they still are now) I've decided I would never, ever purchase anything large that could not be easily returned.

So you save a few dollars. So you save a hundred dollars, two hundred dollars. Fine if it works out. If it doesn't-you're screwed out of ALL your money. It's just harder to screw someone if you're dealing face to face and you have to rely on word of mouth more than on the internet where you can just create some made up bogus ratings (LIKE SEARS.COM!!). It really is. Sure it still happens but it's MUCH less likely.

I'm going to buy appliances (KitchenAid KEMS378S microwave and oven combo and KUDE70CVS dishwasher) thru AJ Madison. Would you share some experiences on how AJ Madison handling equipment installation and 5-year extended warranty?
Are you experiencing any problem with these models?
Thank you
Luong