sorry typos.

So, is he an architect, or a designer? What are his references like?

There are some very helpful architects here on this forum who always start with pen/paper/napkin/whatever. But, I think they also, eventually, move to computer with the final design.

Hopefully they chime in.

Kirkhall - He's a builder who designs houses. I asked to see floorplans he's drawn, but have not seen any yet. He's shown us a lot of houses that he's built and I drilled him with questions.

Hmmm now I'm feeling a bit worried. :/

Our architect also draws everything by hand. It was fine as we didn't have a lot of changes. Perhaps you ask him about it. Tell him that you may for example change the kitchen ten times. Is he ok with redrawing it each time?

Are you hiring him for how he draws or the houses he builds and completes? That is, what's more important to you--the drawings or the completed house? Drawings are simply the means to an end, and not the end itself!

As one of the "old" architects, I'll just suggest that wonderful, enjoyable and long lasting houses were built for centuries before anyone knew what a computer was. When I was the head of a university school of architecture in the late 1980s, none of the faculty would go near a computer, so you know none of the students had any idea of designing with a computer.

As for AutoCAD, it's just a program. Some architects use it and some use many of the other equally good software products. All the software programs have their own pros and cons. Speaking of pros and cons, most architects worth their "design salt" will start their design process, exploring the owner's needs, site conditions, etc., using hand-drawn sketches and diagrams, exploring ideas and possibilities from their imagination and experience. The creative process is much more free-flowing when the mind, hand and eye work together with pencil, pen and paper. The computer adds lots of additional obstacles when it's used for early design explorations. It's not impossible to use computers in early design phases, but it's often a lot more complicated and limiting.

When the design direction and decisions are refined enough, then the computer helps to "settle down" everything and make it quicker and easier for the repetitive and more detailed steps which follow the early design process.

If you start with an architect who immediately starts using the computer, chances are you may be getting a previously used design stored on her/his computer that's just being reheated. While that's common with many builders (particularly the large volume production builders), it's not considered the mark of a good architect who is expected to make every design a custom one based on specific owner needs, site conditions, codes, etc. The fact that your builder is not doing this is a strong "plus" in my book!

Hope this helps. Good luck on your project.

Debra, changes are another matter. Once a design is approved, changes are generally at additional cost as extra services.

Owner created changes require a professional's time and resources to be used, and thus additional compensation is due.

If a client said to me "I may change the kitchen ten times--are you OK with redrawing it each time", my response would be, "Sure, I'm OK with making the changes, if you're OK with paying me for my time and expense for each change".

Fair is fair!

There is no limitation of what computers can do in preliminary design -they are only limited by the user.

That said, there are only two main advantages of computers:

Speed- They cut drafting time by as much as 66% (especially fast with changes)

Modeling- The newest software makes a 3d representation of the house which is easier to understand and can show more information than a typical 2d elevation.

So if they are including this service in the price of the house and not charging for their time than speed does not matter.

If they are charging you than it is a question of who provides the best product at a cost you are willing to pay.

Typically more experienced and better trained people charge more. Builders design a lot of houses in the US primarily because they can produce them cheaply and the average consumer is not really interested in "architecture".

Thanks everyone. I said the same thing yesterday to myself/husband, that we are hiring him for the house not the drawings, but I wasn't sure if that should be a negative or not. He has written a book about home building and I love his philosophy with everything, we very much have the same ideas about quality home building, however while I am an email and program type of person, he is a phone and hard copy type... He wants all of my ideas printed so he can reference them while drawing. I am just going to have to be flexible to that which is fine as long as he gets the job done.

He is charging $1.25 per sf including garages/porches/etc. from looking on here that seems about right/ perhaps a little low, but that is before we sign contracts for the build process. We have to give him a 50% retainer to get the process started.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with hand drawn plans.
Yes, that is a great price.
Good luck!

Well, I think that the average you see here is irrelevant because it varies so much by region. $1.25 would be about double a standard builders plan here in Texas.

Chris- Texas is where we are building. So you think that's high? Our plan isn't going to be standard, he only builds 1-3 houses at a time and its all custom designed.

Depends what he is offering to do. I saw what your plan was in the other thread -if he is simply planning on drawing something fairly close to what you are showing than it is twice what I would normally charge.

If he is planning on throwing that out completely and re-evaluating from scratch than that is more typical for a designer and low for architects but high for what builders normally produce.

Yeah he's basically taking my ideas and making a functional realistic plan with all the things included that I haven't considered (electrical/ac units etc). I am going to do some price shopping. Do you have a website?

Yes, I have several but here is my picture collection on Flickr

http://www.flickr.com/photos/cspics/sets/

Here is a link that might be useful: my photos

Chris- thank you!

How much will he charge, when he has to make changes? How many times will he draw 'trial versions' until you all agree upon a plan?

My concern would be that in discussion it sounds like you're all 'on the same page' but unless it's drawn out, you may not be visualizing the same design.

I would want every detail drawn out, before agreeing to any plan. If it takes some back and forth to get there, I would want to see all the changes. If he can do that, by hand...then it sounds like you have a good option. If not...maybe keep looking.

nothing wrong with hand drawing, its just horrible time management and business practice for him in this modern age. As others stated, computer based drawing is faster and far more accurate on many fronts. While I start with pen and paper, it always ends up modeled (use Autodesk Revit architecture software). However if he is drawing plans that he will then build off of, that is a different story. He knows what he is doing, so it will not be bid for issues to arise. However a lot of builders do not charge for design if they are building the home around here, but then again most builders do not do custom homes but rather "tweak" one of the crappy stock plans they have.
Discuss changes with him. On a computer, it can sometimes be a matter of a few clicks. On paper, much bigger deal.

What this discussion is really about is not drawing by hand or using a computer, it's really about what work is being done, what sort of "service" a client is getting and, most importantly, what the final result or outcome will be.

Builders and designers may often work based on existing designs that they have built and are already fully resolved and stored in the computer. When a new client comes along, one of the existing computer files is called up and "reheated" or tweaked to meet the new client's wish list.

When clients go to a builder/designer who charges $1/SF for services, this may be what is happening. Plus the builder/designer simply transfers any additional costs to the construction budget, where the client never sees them.

For many consumers, this approach fits them perfectly. They don't want a custom designed home. All they want is an existing home that's tweaked to include their list of features.

Think about what's going on: could any adult make a living, pay business expenses and reinvest in growing their business on $1/SF (or less)? How many 3,000 SF houses would such a builder need to do for annual income sufficient to stay in business and make a living for his family?

That's why construction costs, and extra costs due to low allowances, provide most of the needed business income for builders and in-house designers. In this business model, the minimal "design" fees are simply a way to get people to sign a construction contract.

In other words, what's being done may by cooking a previously existing floor plan until "complete", with little or no corresponding thought or work on site planning, climate and green design, and almost no thought to exterior massing and design. When the floor plan is sufficiently baked, the rest of the project is like icing a new cake. The exterior decoration is simply applied and handed to the client.

This sort of incomplete thinking about design is why we see so many postings here on this forum of "fat" house plans, and corresponding ill-proportioned, roof-heavy exteriors, with a pretty "street face" and vanilla sides and backs. It's why so many designs are a miss-mash of stacked gable roofs and patch-work quilt wall materials--all decoration and no substance! All of the effort went into tweaking a plan and little or no corresponding work took place elsewhere.

Architects work differently. They organize their work and fees by phases, working from very open-ended studies and explorations for a custom design, to a highly detailed set of drawings and specifications for bidding and construction. These phases of work are clearly defined and derived from a historical understanding of how building design proceeds in a step by step process, from initial ideas to final details, where insides, outsides, site, codes, energy, etc., are all considered together throughout the design process.

The five typical phases for designing a project are: schematic design, design development, construction drawings and specifications, bidding and construction. One phase does not begin until the client has approved the work from the prior phase.

These phases are why many architects may start a project using pencil, pen and tracing paper as they meet and discuss ideas, explore site opportunities, develop energy and green strategies, finally pulling everything together in a holistic schematic design. Thereafter, with the design direction identified, a computer may be used effectively to refine and add greater precision and detail, until the work is complete. It's not impossible to use computers for schematic design, but it is more difficult to sit in a meeting with clients, talk about needs and opportunities while punching information into a computer. It's a lot more effective to sit with clients and "doodle" with pencil and paper where everyone can see what their ideas may actually look like.

The costs for this type of work is usually set by the architect as either a fixed fee (with conditions on what the fixed fee covers so that the work doesn't ramble on endlessly) or a percentage of the construction cost, or some combination, depending on circumstances.

The important point for consumers to understand is that architect's fees are based on the quality and amount of original work by an architect, while SF costs may be based on minimal changes to an existing project, with possible hidden costs rolled into the construction budget.

The issue is really not about how the work is performed--by hand or computer--it's really about what work is performed (or not performed) for a client, and what will be the end result: something custom and original or something reheated.

Sorry about the long message, but it's important to point out that there's nothing wrong with either custom or reheated designs as long as the consumer understands what they are getting for what they are paying.

Just to be clear I think that estrella18 is talking about something similar to what she had shown in the thread about choosing a builder.

So this would not be a modified stock plan and the builder does not already have it on his computer because he draws them by hand. It is a basic center hall colonial.

While some builders may indeed roll the cost of plans into the construction budget, it does not appear to be the case here since he is charging $1.25 per sq.ft. for the plan.

As far as what it takes to make a living goes that is irrelevant. The only thing people need to be concerned with is what it costs to get the plan they want.

I do agree though on the rest of the post. Architects can charge as much as 10% or more of the entire project cost. There can be a variety of reasons but the main one is that they tend to provide more services.

Not that the average designer is not willing to provide more service -it is mostly a matter of difference in client income level. Architects tend to attract wealthy people who can afford to spend a great deal of money on design and building and designers and builders tend to work for everyone else.

Looking at the original plan, personally I think that the central kitchen may not be a popular choice but I have seen it before and if you choose that is easily fixed.

I find many people actually enjoy designing their own house and I think that places like this offer a great resource where if someone can stand criticism they can get a lot of good help and non-sugar coated opinions about their design.

virgil - thank you for all the info. I've relegated this to the end of my priority list for now as it's a bit overwhelming. I've told the builder/designer that I'm going to get some other quotes before signing the contract. It isn't a stock plan though, he is going to draw exactly what we want. He prefers not to use pre-existing plans as he finds they need to be heavily modified.

chris - I am curious to hear why a central kitchen is a negative? I want a ton of windows and access to dining/living/mudroom so this is what I came up with. We have a central kitchen in our current house, so maybe that's why I steered in that direction.

Also those ideas arent set in stone. I am very much in favor of chaning things to make them more functional/cost effective. I recently read that it shouldn't be more than 32 feet deep for the roof trusses to remain affordable, so I am going to modify that depth.

I looked at your site and like your work! I will most likely be contacting you when I can bump this back up to the first priority on my list. We are selling our current home right now, so that has taken over a bit.

Thanks for all the useful info!

It is just not a popular feature to have to go through the kitchen to get to the living room and the master bedroom.

That being said, one time I did a house for someone who wanted the front door in the kitchen and last I heard was quite happy about it because it worked for her situation. (even though the front faced the road it was actually used as the side on a rural property)

Personally I do not believe that every house needs to accommodate the average buyer but there is (some) risk in future salability if it is too far outside of the norm.

But I think this is a great place to ask people questions like that. Most people have their share of good ideas. The only advantage an experienced designer has is that we have worked with a lot of people and have seen and heard just about everything.

Our Architect only does plans by hand drawing. He is very good at what he does. My husband bought Architect pro computer program to do the basic design/plan layout he wanted but after 52 different designs and 4 years I said enough is enough. We gave the last layout to our Architect and talked to him about changes we wanted and asked for his input on areas that we weren't sure really worked for our Victorian style house. After that inital meeting he took our plans and ideas and made hand drawings for us to look at and approve or make changes. When he cam back for that meeting we made 2 changes - he told us that we had lots of attic space and we decided to add stairs going up and to make another bedroom up there with a bathroom. 3 weeks later he met with us with the first 2 floors drawn as final plan and the attic as preliminary drawing. We approved all floors for final plans. He doesn't ever put these in the computer. He hand draws every single one. he charges $80/hr and so far we have paid for 45.25 hours. Expensive yes but he is very good and detailed at what he does. We hope that we will get the final plans by the end of the month but he is on vacation until Tuesday :(

I wanted to get the plans so that we could start looking for a builder and get started before the Missouri winter weather starts. Our lease on our Townhome is up 7/31/14 and I want to be done buidling by then. My husband doesn't think it will happen which make me sad.

Our house will be a Victorian/patio home. We are building in Excelsior Springs, MO on land that is already paid for with our $9615 well (540ft deep) and our $30k bridge over the dry fork creek (it flooded and took out all the bridges on our road back in 93). No basement just a slab and walls are going to be ICF using the transform system. Total square footage is 3000 sq ft. What do you experts think this home will cost to build. I will try to upload the plans when I get home from work.

A computer is not a very effective design tool but it is a very effective construction drawing tool so when drawing by hand instead of updating the computer drawings when starting the construction documents it is necessary to begin again often at a larger scale. However, the design phase can go more quickly because it is easier to design when you don't have to enter every dimension with a keyboard and it is difficult to maintain a good sense of scale when zooming in and out of a computer image.

I would be cautious of any designer who only used one of these methods.

I find a 3D drawing program like SketchUp is essential for designing a complex house form or roof. It allows you to rotate the model and take perspective views from different angles.

Look for a designer who has mastered all available design tools and knows how to use them to communicate design ideas to you quickly and convincingly. There's no excuse for being 40 years out of date. I've been doing this for longer than your designer/builder and I was able to submit 3 perspectives and 4 elevations of 6 different design options to a Historic Commission in less than 4 weeks. They wanted modifications so I revised two of them and resubmitted. I not only won approval but probably saved my client $10,000 and let him start this winter instead of waiting til Spring.

Design is a service: construction is a trade. Some can do both well but they are rare. You wouldn't want me to build your house.