They are both good ranges, Vikings are more repair prone than Wolfs and the Viking Char  Grill is nothing more than a gas burner ring, while the Wolf uses a high-end infra-red ceramic grill unit that is much better, imho.

Viking started off as a home appliance company and just recently went into the commercial market. Wolf started of as a commercial appliance company and branched out into the home appliance side. Wolf ranges are beefier and stronger in their build.

The question is like asking which is better a Toyota or a BMW, they are both cars. You will pay more for a Wolf but if you truly know how to cook and can use a high-end stove than it is worth it. If itÂs just a weekend toy to heat up a frozen pizza or boil water I would save the money.

Current Wolf ranges have virtually nothing to do with the restaurant brand or the early in-home commercial-style ranges. Wolf/SubZero shares little more than a name with the Wolf Range company that continues to make commercial products.

The makes you mention are comparable. They are both good products. Some believe that there are superior performing products from other manufacturers at similar, or lower prices.

It is true that in 2000 Sub Zero brought Wolf (the home division) of Wolf Range (the commercial division) However, the history is still important, Wolf always used many of the same parts and Wolf Range (commercial side) still manufactures and supplies many of the parts that are in a home Wolf range. The heritage, design and beefier construction are what matters.

Could sub-zero cheapen it? Yes, but currently they dont appear to be doing so, Viking on the other had with their push to home builders has taken some cost cutting approaches since that market is highly dependent on price.

My last wolf purchased was in 2005 and they still had the stronger L Brackets for the ovens, bigger springs, etc. Just overall stronger components.

Plus you throw in the wolf infrared ceramic char-broiler, which is blows Vikings gas tube grill out of the water and there are indeed quite a few differences between the two ranges. I was trying to be nice to Viking, they are not bad or a P.O.S. but it really is more of a Toyota vs BMW comparison.

sfjeff is correct. Wolf residential products are nothing like their commercial line. Typically, when companies start from commercial beginnings like Wolf, their initial residential products are basically the same as their commercial products but tuned down to make it safe for home use (and get UL approval). Once these companies grow to a certain point where there's enough demand in the residential product line to justify new designs, then they start producing products that were designed from ground up for residential use. Not necessarily a bad thing since most people want the more "refined" or "finished" look that's not often found in restaurant ranges.

The car analogy is good but I see it more like asking, which is better, BMW or Mercedes? Both are high-end luxury brands and both have industrial/commercial vehicles. It wouldn't make sense to say Mercedes is better because they started out making racing cars and freight trucks. Or BMW isn't good because they started out making airplane engines and then straight into passenger vehicles.

Every brand have their own problems. People who've had a problem with one or the other will likely voice negative opinions loudly but that doesn't mean there aren't thousands of happy owners for every unhappy one.

Im not going to get into a pissing match here, but with over 40+ years of restaurant ownership, having built multiple commercial kitchens including being picked by Viking to be a test kitchens for their new commercial line; I think I know just a teensy weensy little bit about Wolf Range on the commercial side and I have owned them in my homes for over 15 years so I have a little experience with their home division also.

When I purchased my last one 4 years ago, I tore a display model down, since I was curious if Subzero has reduced quality, the components were virtually the same as my current wolf, which share some of the same components of the Wolfs in my restaurants.

For example the L Bracket on the oven was thick strong steel, attached with 7 screws; the spring closure was a heavy duty industrial size one. All of these components are the same as the commercial unit. I can go on and on if you wish.

>>>Once these companies grow to a certain point where there's enough demand in the residential product line to justify new designs, then they start producing products that were designed from ground up for residential use. Not necessarily a bad thing since most people want the more "refined" or "finished" look that's not often found in restaurant ranges.

You are correct that the outside is where the biggest difference are no disagreement, I was talking about the internal components and the guts, many of them are still the same and subzero still purchases them from Wolf (commercial) Range.

>>>The car analogy is good but I see it more like asking, which is better, BMW or Mercedes? Both are high-end luxury brands and both have industrial/commercial vehicles.

That would be fine if Viking were a high end product, they are not, they use cheaper steel, lighter-weight components, have a higher failure rate. Remember those oven brackets I talked about, I also looked at Vikings side-by-side to a Wolf, they used a much lighter weight bracket and only 5 screws and the spring was very tiny compared to the Wolfs commercial one.

The grill is another perfect example with Viking you get nothing more than a burner you would find on a low end Weber BBQ grill, Wolf uses the high-end infrared ceramic, Ive recorded 900 F temps on my grates with high airflow over them and that is with a diffusion plate on the ceramic, you can char-sear a steak on a Wolf while simply marking it on a Viking, huge difference (apples to oranges).

In the commercial end of it, Viking products werent very good there either, with some failures on basic items that we thought was intolerable (Broken burner grates = cheaper metal, Oven door failures in 6 months, hinges breaking, etc.)

Thats why I chose Toyota vs BMW Toyotas are going to get you where you want to go and save you a few bucks, but they are not in the same caliber of a BMW or Mercedes.

>>>People who've had a problem with one or the other will likely voice negative opinions loudly but that doesn't mean there aren't thousands of happy owners for every unhappy one.

I agree but that is not my argument, fundamentally the Viking is a cheaper made product when compared to Wolf. Nothing inherently wrong with that, they do a great job marketing and seem to have quite a few people fooled into thinking they are a really high-end range, they are not.

If you want to have a fair comparison product you could pick

Wolf vs BlueStar vs American Range (which is coming on very strong lately).

Or

Viking vs Thermador

Cheers

Let me preface this with there are good ranges out there. More than one brand.

but ... hotchpotch you've made me even more impressed with Wolf than I already have been. I've been using the DF with the charbroiler for about 2 1/2 years now. For me it was a great fit. Steaks are flippin' awesome. Watch out Ruth Chris ":^)

So Viking does not use the infrared broiler. This is a surprise. Do you know if NXR uses the Wolf infrared components. So far, everyone is saying the part number is the same on the burners.

NXR sources its burners from Isphording, a German OEM. Some believe that Wolf/SubZero uses the same source, if not the same part.

Viking has a "GourmetGlo(TM) infrared broiler"

I would be very surprised if any "pro-style" range did not use an infrared broiler.

There is some confusion here.

I am speaking about the GRILL on TOP - not the broiling element in the oven.

Wolf calls it a Char-broiler

Viking, as of 2 months ago has only used a gas tube in their "grill" on top. Wolf uses a much higher end ceramic device on their "grill" on top.

The broiling elements in the oven are NOT something I discussed.

I also have NO knowledge of who manufactures the oven broiler, since commercial wolfs do not have these.

Cheers

hotchpotch,

I've obviously said something to upset you but that was not my intent. My only point is that lots of people have recently brought up "commercial range" roots as a proof of quality or suitability for home use but the needs in a residential range is different than the needs of a commercial range.

Frankly, I have no love for Viking but I do think they have made a product that has a certain appeal to many in the high-end appliance space. Are they over rated and over marketed? Yes, I think so. Personally, I prefer Wolf over Viking if I had to choose between the two but I'd choose Wolf of a decade ago over Wolf today in a second. Now I'm only talking about the residential product line not their commercial line.

Personally, I chose Bluestar because of their simplicity and power (and they were the only ones to produce a open burner drop-in cooktop) which is the basis of most commercial ranges but I recognize that not everyone has the same priorities I do. For most homes and most owners, the differences between Viking, Wolf, Bluestar, American, etc. is going to be a matter of personal priorities. Do they prefer sealed vs open burners? Does the range fit in the space?

Peace.

amcook,

What upsets me is factually wrong information being put out. We can all have our opinions on the issues, as you have seen above with the oven broiler issue, I dont comment on things I dont know about.

Wolf has its heritage in the rough and tumble world of the restaurant business, something that I know much more about than the residential side. They built their reputation on being the sturdiest toughest pieces of metal in the industry.

Their home appliances have followed suit in the internal parts and as of 2004/5 have continued to do so.

Personally, I chose Bluestar because of their simplicity and power (and they were the only ones to produce a open burner drop-in cooktop) which is the basis of most commercial ranges but I recognize that not everyone has the same priorities I do.

I have my feelings about drop in units but that is only my OPINION.

I agree with you about an open burner wolf offers those, at least in ranges, I will defer to your expertise in cooktops which I have ZERO knowledge about.

>>>For most homes and most owners, the differences between Viking, Wolf, Bluestar, American, etc. is going to be a matter of personal priorities. Do they prefer sealed vs open burners? Does the range fit in the space? I agree I thought I made that point, does it cook pizza and boil water. Does it get to point a and b like a Toyota.

Then of course you are perfectly correct and I thought I said that to the OP, but to those of us who desire a little bit more (could be my profession and history talking here) than a Viking is not our first choice.

Shalom

Thanks all. Some have mentioned Bluestar and American - any dirt on Capital? How about Cornufe - the "affordable" line made by La Cornu - they look like a million bucks, but are they any good? Does anyone out there own one and cook on/in it? And, finally, what about the GE Monogram line? Does anyone have any experience with these?

I've heard good things about the current Capital ranges. I haven't fired one up. The fit and finish seems good. I believe the high-line (self-clean) Capitals use a "premium" element for the grill that may be better than the "indoor gas grill" style, and possibly in the same class as the Wolf grill that hotchpotch describes.

Does anyone know if the grill on a wolf range and the rangetop have the same infrared-ceramic features? It did not say that on their brochure.

Viking-after searching the web, I got a general sense that Viking has problems with ignition and that it was not as well built as Wolf.

Wolf-I am new to Garden Web and already got a sense that people here likes the wolf stove but not the oven. If I need a range, should I not consider Wolf?

Just to say.......... I met up with Trevor this past Friday at Eurostoves, and he is a very good guy. I made the drive from the Berkshires just to acquaint myself with Senor BlueStar. (Could be a Senora....don't want to offend anyone...) I would have hung out for a couple of more hours, but Eurostoves had some poster pictures of yummy foods and my 10 yr old son got faint with hunger - we had to run...
I was very impressed with the BlueStar 60" range, the 30" wall oven and Trevor's representation of them. He knows his stuff, he's honest and he is generous with his time.
I know this appliance is an amazing cooking machine. I love the star burners......beautiful sight to behold, as is the iron cast top of the stove.

I understand that BlueStar wants to remain a tad different from all the other very polished brands. And I bet they could do that and still round off some of the rough edges. Just a few minor bits.... close up some seams... make the cleaning pans that slide out under the cooktop less sharp at the edges...more solid, safe..... and the knobs....a little less wobbly.... adjustments that befit the kind of range this is.
(I went to an appliance store today in my area and saw the 48" Heritage Classic with the raised grill.... and fiddled around with the knobs and was surprised at how wobbly they were. Is that my imagination or is it true? The GE Pro Monogram beside it seemed quite smooth and not wobbly)
Anyway... It wouldn't be too much to ask for from BlueStar........ I would love to have this range. But when you spend this kind of dosh, you want it to be as good as it can be. They're almost there. And when they get there, they will leave the competition in the dust, I'm sure. Comments anybody?

At some point you have to stop. To stay out of the fray, let me change appliances -- high-end espresso makers. Not the kind Starbucks sells, more like the kind they used to use...

For $600, you can get a Rancilio Sylvia. Single boiler, full-size portafilter. Functional. Arguably the cheapest thing that makes a decent cup of espresso.

For $1500, you get an E61 HX (heat exchanger) that lets you pull shots and steam without changing the boiler temperature. It is beautiful stainless steel, has two pressure gauges that are a little wobbly, one boiler with a single thermostat, a the lever squeaks, and you can burn the s$%7 out of yourself on the steam wand.

For $1700 you can get one with a no-burn steam wand, a better pump, and a little better thermostat.

For $2000 you get a rotary pump, but we're still not there.

In the $3000 price range, you start getting into dual boilers (coffee and steam at different temperatures -- "E61" on the less-expensive machines comes from Faema's 1961 patent) and 220V required.

Next come PIDs (computer temperature control).

At $6000 or so, you're talking things like the La Marzocco GS3, or the Synesso.

At some point you need to stop. Where that is on the curve for you depends on your available cash. Would I love a Synesso Cyncra? Damn right! I stopped a little earlier, so I'd have cash for that somewhat imperfect BlueStar that found a sweet spot between performance and price that works well for me.

I stopped at miss Silvia with Rocky and added the pid. And lately it's all for lattes' w/ a tripple chaser.