I don't have any "European style" dishes or bowls. Most of mine are Corelle and some real China, all of which fits in the Miele Diamante. I tested most of them out first in the showroom to make sure they'd fit before we purchased the dishwasher.

You know, a DW is a tool to make things easier for you - it should accomodate your needs, you shouldn't have to accomodate it. If your bowls won't fit in your DW, get a DW that will. Personally, I'd skip the panel - I don't like them anyway - and get the KA - if SS won't work well in your kitchen, get black - many people mix SS and black appliances. Function is more important than form, IMHO.

Thank you fauguy and weissman!

Weissman, I'd rather replace some relatively cheap bowls to have a dishwasher that's reliable and cleans the very best...as long as it'll be easy to get more accommodating bowls, that is!

I need the panel kind cause I have to reduce how much stainless can be seen in the kitchen due to its new countertop being stainless...I need to minimize that modern, sterile look to fit in better w/ my old period kitchen.

A few last questions for those who might know:

1. Does the cheese/starch option in the two highest models actually work better than other machines or functions?
2. Is it a problem if my tap water is already soft?
3. What if you have to open it and it's not done? Is there a pause feature on the outside? If I want to open it up to see how much time's left, can I just open it and everything will stop?
4. I haven't had a dishwasher since '95 and a new one w/ manual, ever. So excuse the ignorant question here but: can you wash delicates like wine glasses on top and have heavy pots and pans to scrub on the bottom? I.e. can you have two different settings going at once?

1) No, the regular Miele Pots&Pans cycle will also get your casserole dishes etc. clean.
2) No, just deactivate the dishwasher's internal water softener.
3) Yes, the wash action will stop as soon as you open the door.
4) Well, Miele's current offering in the USA don't allow you to run two different cycles. The have just released a new generation of dishwashers - G5000 - in Europe that has a Bottom Basket Intensive option that does just what you said. But it'll probably take months for the new dishwashers to arrive in the US.

I attached a thread with some pictures of fully loaded Miele racks.

HTH, Alex

Here is a link that might be useful: Miele Excella

The problem isn't so much deep bowls but thick ones. The tines on Euro tubs are spaced closer together and that's where people sometimes have trouble. For most bowls you'd just put them in at an angle and deeper ones help out with that.

The Crate and Barrel bowls below will fit in a Miele no problem.

Here is a link that might be useful: ex. of bowls that fit miele DW's

Any way you could pull your cabinets out from the wall a tad, so the KA would be flush?

It's not just bowls. I'd go back with platters, baking dishes, pans, cookware and large drinking glasses. My tests were done in a Bosch, not Miele tho and I would NOT be a happy camper had I gone the Bosch route. And the overall interior size is smaller so you're going to do more loads. I understand that the KA is deeper and your paneled dw won't sit flush but dose it HAVE to sit flush? My KA sticks out far enough that I'm able to see the controls on top without having to open the dishwasher. I doesn't look bad or odd AT ALL and frankly, I like the fact that I don't have to open the door to see the controls :) Just a thought.
When I've accumulated several large items like cookie sheets, large skillets, a 10x14 pan, big mixing bowl, all I have to do is raise my middle rack to accommodate these over sized pieces. Any TALL drinking glasses that woiuld normally fit in the middle rack would have to sit out that washing (because of the to die for 3rd utensil rack) or if it's just a couple, I can put them on bottom since I don't use the heated dry option. It's dishwasher nirvana I tell you! (lol) There have been times I've crammed so much into that machine I'm thinking there's no way all this is going to come out clean...there are times I LIKE being wrong :)) It couldn't clean better if the door was red (g)
Monica
Monica

If you have a water softener (0 grains hardness), you might want to consider hooking up the dishwasher to cold water (if it is unsoftened) and using the built in water softener. It should soften the water the correct amount to prevent etching of glassware. I say "should" because my 2 yr. old Meile has never accurately sensed the water hardness, so I set it manually every 2 or 3 months. I have had all the related parts replaced and it still shows the water hardness at 18-20 grains when it actually tests at 7-9.

"And the overall interior size is smaller so you're going to do more loads. I understand that the KA is deeper and your paneled dw won't sit flush but dose it HAVE to sit flush?"

Isn't this just pleading one persons biases over another?

"Can't you just do one more load a month?"

Yes the Euro's tubs are smaller , but it only amounts to 3 plates and a spatula, or equiv. It's not like you're gonna get an extra lasagna pan in or be able to go one more day's worth of meals with a KA.

Some people value looks over an xtra plate or two. Some like the neat orderly loading of a Euro and other's prefer the ability to load chaotically in an American tub. Neither is better or worse. Some that switch to a Euro change their habits and wonder how they got along with the domestic in the past while others regret ever hearing of Miele or Asko in the first place.

Folks, all your dishes will fit in any dishwasher. Some will have a more efficient use of space and some will be easier to get into a routine with.

Alex, thank you for answering all that and for the link! I WISH YOU HADN'T TOLD ME about how Miele's coming out w/ that new line of dishwashers! Aaargh! Maybe I'll call Miele in Jersey and ask if they have any idea whatsoever re. when they'll be out. It's never fun getting something when the new shiny bright & better version's just around the corner you know? But then there's always going to be something better around the corner (when not a Bosch anyway - haha).

theresse- don't worry about the 5000 series, they won't be here for years. They usually rollout in the USA about 2 years after they show in NZ & Australia.

They are not for sale yet down there.

Don't bother calling NJ.

theresse

Questions:

1. Does the cheese/starch option in the two highest models actually work better than other machines or functions?
2. Is it a problem if my tap water is already soft?
3. What if you have to open it and it's not done? Is there a pause feature on the outside? If I want to open it up to see how much time's left, can I just open it and everything will stop?
4. I haven't had a dishwasher since '95 and a new one w/ manual, ever. So excuse the ignorant question here but: can you wash delicates like wine glasses on top and have heavy pots and pans to scrub on the bottom? I.e. can you have two different settings going at once?

------------------------------------------------

Answers:

1) I use the Pots & Pans mode 90% of the time and everything comes out clean. If we go out to eat and only have a few light items in the unit, I'll use the Normal mode (maybe with the Turbo turned on to lessen the run time).

2) If you already have a whole home water softener, then you can deactivate the one on the Miele. On my Diamante, the lowest setting is 0-4 grains (which is off), and the next is 4-6, and up from there to 50+.

3) On mine, as soon as you open the door, everything will stop, and when you close the door it will resume. If you press & hold the Start button, it will stop the current program, and pressing the Start button again will drain the unit and reset it. There is no button to pause and resume, only by opening and closing the door.

4) Only one wash program can be run at a time. So if you have pots and pans that you cooked with, and china and crystal that you used for dinner, you might have to run two loads (one for pots & pans that washes longer and with hotter water, and one for China & Crystal that uses less wash time and with lower temp water).

About the G5000 series, I've heard that it (might) make it here sometime next year, but the US dishwasher have to be made specifically for the US. You just can't make 1 that will work in Europe and in the US. There's differences in the electrical voltage, and they have to be "approved" for sale here, be Energy Star tested and rated, etc. All of this takes time. The only differences on the G5000 seems to be with the higher end models (Excella, La Perla) as they have newer rack design and the 3D cutlery rack. The La Perla also adds 4 LED lighting (which I think is pretty cool). But there's no way to know when the models will get here and how much more $ they will cost over the current models.

Yes, the G5000 series has improved racks. There's not much change from a technical point of view. LED light, a new Extra Silent cycle (that runs 4:30 hrs.!) and the Intensive option. See my link for more details - or maybe not... ;-)

Here is a link that might be useful: Press Releases on G5000

I put deep cereal bowls on the top using the spaces that are wider, and yes I lean them at an angle which I think cleans the bowl inside better anyway. I have never had a problem fitting my stuff in my Miele, in fact the layout/configuration of it suits me MUCH better than the KA, Bosch or Asko's that I looked at when I purchased it 6 years ago now. It was just so much more flexible, IIRC. Hands down it is the best appliance I have ever owned. It works flawlessly and the loads come out cleaner than you can imagine. I actually got it because a Bosch was delievered and was too tall to fit my space. I was left with the choice of Asko or Miele and I am so glad that Bosch did not fit. I spent more than I intended but I have never regretted it.

Good luck!

I posted this video before. It compares Miele to Bosch and KitchenAid. Miele comes out on top. However, take it with a grain of salt, as usually. Both Bosch and KitchenAid have better racks on their higher-end units - including racking systems with cutlery tray. Nevertheless, it's worth watching, I think.

Alex

Here is a link that might be useful: Miele Basket Capacity

I agree with earlier poster. Get the KitchenAid in Black. The black visually fades into the background, and won't give you "too much stainless". I'd consider black for built in ovens too if you are going to have them.

You know that Miele also comes in White and Black, not just Stainless and Panel Ready.

whirlpool_trainee, that's a nice video! I like how it shows "Brand X", reminds me of the original Batman movie where the Joker says "He's be using Brand Xssssssss"

WOW !!! bigger interior - but fits less.

That ought to be a marketing slogan.

I have the Kitchen Aid DW KUDE70 model with panel. My KD recessed it a bit (not much needed). It was installed today and when the panel is put on, it looks like it will be perfectly integrated. None of my everyday Dansk dishes would fit in the Miele or Bosch so KA was my best choice. I didn't find out that it would not sit flush with the other cabinets until after I placed the order and I definitley wanted it to be integrated. The recess was the answer. Mine is on an interior wall. I think that may make a difference.

Thanks so much everyone for your great responses! I'd started responding to each of you when I last wrote (starting w/ the "oh no I wish you hadn't told me they're coming out w/ a new line" post) but then kids called and I never got to finish responding to the rest of you! My apologies...

antss - those crate & barrel bowls seem perfectly fine. Thanks for relieving my fears!

numbersjunkie - I wish! I can't pull the cabinets out because between the floor space being small enough and there being doors on either end of the long countertop, there just isn't room. But that would be a great idea otherwise!

monicakm - trust me - I'd love to be able to get the Kitchenaid! From reading everyone's posts, I'm thinking or at least *hoping* that the problem you've had is more w/ Bosch and less w/ Miele (?) re. platters, baking dishes et al. I don't feel you're being pushy myself just because I made it clear how much I really wanted the Kitchenaid - FYI. You're just trying to help. ;) But like I was saying to numbersjunkie, I can't pull the dishwasher out more because there's a door that when opened (a fear I have - of it happening w/ too much force) will hit the dishwasher if it's even a little further out. It would also make it so that the door could never be opened fully and flush w/ counter to let in all the light from the mudroom/back yard...that would drive me batty.

You do have me wondering though: can the Miele's 2nd rack be raised up like the Kitchenaids do? Hope so!

carol jk - that's odd. Our water here is soft on its own so hopefully I can just disable the water-softening option.

antss - it's funny...when you wrote "some people like the neat orderly loading of a Euro and others prefer the ability to load chaotically in an American tub" I thought that oh dear - I'm the chaotic messy one - very NOT Type A - haha! I want to be as chaotic as I please (w/ option of being orderly of course, when I decide to wear that hat as I do on occasion!) but I think I can still be chaotic w/ the Miele dishwasher, within reason (if that's not an oxymoron)! For example, I'm HOPING I can just lay the flatware on the top tray on occasion, knowing I can't put as many pieces in. I've seen that work for other people in other dishwashers. It all gets clean just the same unless there's heavy soiling. For me the highest priority is unfortunately that it fit in the space, then the second is that it is a reliable machine that's built to last, the third is that it's very good at cleaning very soiled/stuck-on dishes. Not sure where efficiency of space/flexibility of baskets falls in line but probably somewhere soon after!

As for the new models not coming out anytime soon...I won't bother holding out. :(

fauguy -Thanks for answering those q's!
I don't have china/crystal that I use but I do use wine glasses. Can typical wine glasses take a lot of heat - e.g. same setting as pots & pans or cheese/starch? If they can take that kind of heat, I wouldn't have to do two separate loads.

I guess if the new models end up being WOW FANTASTIC better, I could sell my current model and pay for the upgrade that way you know? Meanwhile I wouldn't waste time waiting around. Also, if the upgraded racks can fit into an older machine I could always just purchase those but who knows. Not all that important for now.

whirlpool trainee/Alex - Thanks for the press release link! I love the lights, but most of all the intensive option. I could care less about the extra silent cycle having a separate kitchen however if it saves on water and electricity more then it would be a nice overnight option on occasion.

buffalotina - good to know! I can't BELIEVE the off-the-charts excellent reviews everywhere I look. I don't know if I wrote this earlier or not but the bottom line is that if I had to get new bowls or a better-fitting but lesser-cleaning dishwasher, guess which one I'd choose? Bowls don't cost THAT much! And I'm sure they'd fit one way or another. Plus, I noticed the tines are surprisingly flexible - not that I'd rely solely on that.

Alex - That video won't load properly for me for some reason. I eventually got it so that I could scroll slowly through stills but no video. Got the gist of it though, thanks!

fun2cook - I've asked my contractor 3x now and he just won't recess the Kitchenaid due to it being an external wall w/ only 2x4 studs. And I explained above why it can't stick out, darn it.

As for getting a dishwasher in black, apologies in advance for the following rant-of-sorts:
I think black's generally a very nice idea and can look very good. I wonder though if it would fade into the background when surrounded by white cabinets and w/ nothing else being black (?). We have a white range and microwave and there's no space for wall ovens. I haven't had a dishwasher in years (so excited!) but the last one I had years ago (and for several years) was black and I wanted to try something different and new-to-me.

I'm doing the integrated "cabinet door" look for 2 reasons: one being that it's trendy in the fun sense (I've always been behind in the times or unable to get the latest thing so that's new for me)! :) The other reason: my new stainless countertop (in 1913 period style if all works out well) will sit above the DW, w/ new stainless fridge being on opposite wall. The way that whole wall is set up in conjunction w/ the rest of the room is such that balance seems to be required more than usual. So again I'll have two walls opposite each other that will have noticeably stainless elements so hopefully no other distractions (just white cabinets and white farm sink and marble subway tile backsplash) and then the other two walls will just have white w/ no stainless (the white stove w/ white microwave and white 1913 cabinet above). So while things will be overwhelmingly if not annoyingly white, it's a small room and there will be some balance overall - and then there will be black accents from the original hardware on the cabinets but they will be relatively subtle. The true color in the room will come in through wall paint and accessories. It's the best I could come up w/ for staying w/ painted original cabinets and not having a whole lot of money - or my own personal designer!

fauguy - I do know dishwashers come in white, thanks. I could get a white DW but that wouldn't be as attractive I don't think. I love combining "modern trends" or "upadated looks" with period-appropriate (not something we've always gotten in the past!), which the integrated cabinet door look offers. Plus it just helps w/ the overall symmetry of the lower cabinets under the counter. It can also help when dealing w/ a small, dark, easily-cluttered-looking kitchen.

gwentm - you're so lucky your DW will go on an interior wall! Jealous! It's a GREAT dishwasher...really good reviews and at such a better price for their top of the line model. I suppose there's some validity w/ the argument that K.A. appliances aren't built to last as long as the Mieles but on the other hand, as technology advances, I might want to change out my long-lasting Euro dishwasher before the 20-year mark has arrived, anyway! ;)

Haven't read whole thread, but I find the racks in the higher-end Mieles (current US models) to be excellent, particularly the bottom rack which is shaped in a way that will happily accept plates, bowls, or glasses of all sizes. Yes, middle rack adjusts up and down on most (all?) of the 3-rack models.

If you need a shallower (front-to-back) dishwasher, Miele isn't your only choice; Bosch, Asko, Fisher & Paykel, and several others also use the shorter racks.

If you like the Kitchenaid, you should also check out Maytag and Whirlpool since Whirlpool makes all three and they are mostly the same, but with different rack designs and control panels. Likewise for certain Kenmores that are made by Whirlpool.

IMO, the Miele is worth it though. The new higher-end Bosch DWs with the third rack are worth a look too - very quiet and good rack design. Expensive, but so is Miele.

Thanks Lee676 - I think Miele will be a good albeit expensive choice, knock on wood. I've lived SO LONG with no dishwasher - and then having 3 kids plus my husband who's the 4th - AND my husband and I being a pretty messy (Type Z?) couple of people to begin with...getting whichever machine has the BEST reviews for scrubbing dishes clean is what I want to get and that's hands down the Miele and Kitchenaid. Since the K.A. isn't an option, that leaves me w/ Miele. I keep reading that Bosch has gone down in quality in recent year or two so there you have it.