By the serial code Miele USA will know whether it was sold by an authorized retailer or not.

From what I have read it depends alot on the customer service rep you get.

Some have a "move the claim" along mentality and don't want to bother with the paperwork in denying the claim.

They can do a good will warranty claim ie the dumb customer did not know he was buying for an unauthorized dealer.

Others are sticklers about it.

If you buy it make sure you get a really good discount.

proceede on the asumption that there will be no warranty support.

like dee said , you may get lucky if you file a claim but don't count on it.

for me the discount would have to be AT LEAST 50% off street price.

someone recently posted about buying a Miele appliance on ebay and was denied warranty support. You should assume no warranty as part of your purchase decision. Do you have at least some recourse with the seller if the thing is DOA? Are you able to pay with a credit card?

Thanks so much, deeageaux, antss, and weissman.

Deeageaux, I'm curious how the serial number would tell Miele whether the dealer is authorized. Presumably the thing was sent to some authorized dealer or other when it left the factory, no? Are you thinking it might have been stolen from original dealer, who then reported the serial number to Miele? Or do authorized dealers automatically report to Miele the serial number of each unit they sell? Please pardon my ignorance on this one.

antss: the discount is only 30%. That said, I have never seen so much as a 5% discount off any Miele DW in the several weeks I have been looking. So it's a 400-500 dollar savings that I will not likely see a dime of anywhere else. In fact, if I pass up this deal, I will probably switch to a cheaper (and less reliable/economical/eco-friendly) brand. Hence my obstinance.

Weissman, as if there weren't enough red flags already, the dealer specifies that there are NO RETURNS. And yes, the item is being sold on ebay. OTOH, the dealer has received all positive reviews. And there is a storefront involved -- the unit is not being sold from somebody's garage. Do you happen to remember the name (or any searchable details) of the previous post about Miele refusing to honor the warranty of a DW purchased on ebay? I'd love to read about that.

Question for all of you: what do you think would happen if I bought this unit and hired an authorized Miele repair person to install it? Of course I'd still be hosed if the unit turns out to be a total lemon from the get-go. But if it's not, maybe an authorized installation would restore the unit's coverability in Miele's eyes (Miele doubles the warranty on DW's installed by authorized Miele service people). Also, I wonder if it would help to take date-stamped pictures of the unit when I buy it, including all unopened bags of parts, etc., to show that it was not a previously owned unit, and that there is no visible damage (if I buy this unit I will be picking it up rather than having it shipped...)

Thanks again for any and all advice. (And for loosening these scales from my eyes...)

It was a Miele coffee system that had a warranty issue - I've attached the link below. To answer some of your other questions, I do not think that hiring an authorized installer would reinstate your warranty. I'm not sure, but I believe that when an authorized dealer sells a unit they do notify Miele. The unit you're looking at probably wasn't stolen but was probably dumped by an authorized dealer. The fact that you're buying it AS IS with no chance of return, even if DOA, would be a big red flag for me unless you're willing to risk your entire purchase price or pay for any initial repairs yourself which would eat up your savings. Personally, I would pass on this deal but I'm fairly cautious about such things. I'd check out KA DWs or go with a lower model Miele from an authorized dealer. You will find stories on this forum and others about the great deals people got on ebay and craigslist but you will also find stories about how people got cheated as well.

Here is a link that might be useful: Miele warranty

I know budget is a big consideration for everyone, but really, $500 savings? That's a drop in the bucket of even a modest kitchen remodel for peace of mind. If $500 more is such a deterrent to actually getting a Meile, then perhaps it's not the appliance you should have for your kitchen to begin with. I'm not trying to be snotty here. Just give you a reality check. This forum makes us believe that we need 2K coffee systems and 3K DWs, and 2K MWs, but that simply isn't the case. A plain jane $500 Maytag will get your dishes clean and be much quieter than any 10 year old DW that someone is used to. And you'll be able to buy 3 or 4 of them for the same price as a Meile. If budget is that big of a consideration, then Meile shouldn't even be in the equation for a DW.

Miele will ask for a copy of your receipt if you ever contact them about your purchase. You will need to provide a store receipt from an authorized dealer should the item ever require service. In my case, they informed me that even though I purchased through an authorized dealer, since it was via ebay they would not honor the one year warranty on the device. It turned out I did need service on the machine as it was shipped with a floating plug/jack pair that had not been clicked closed properly prior to packaging.

The thing is I had to fix the problem myself, or cough up a $1000 dollar repair bill for a Miele "authorized" repairer to drive all the way out here to fix the problem that was Miele's fault in the first place.

Miele controls product stream, repair parts, service documentation, etc., very tightly in the US and Canada. I am not happy that they are allowed to restrict trade like that here, but that's just the way it is after 30 years of deregulation and laissez faire predation. However, that issue is more than offset by the fact that if you want a well-engineered built in coffee system you have one choice, Miele. I saved 500 bucks buying on ebay and I fixed my machine myself. But I have the tools and a heck of a lot of experience fixing all manner of electronics, so the roll of the dice was easier for me than for some. But that may not be the case for others. Not sure what your level of resourcefulness is when it comes to appliance repair. If you are not comfortable ripping your machine apart to fix it then I would be sure to live in an urban area with plenty of authorized, parts, dealers, repairers, around. One expensive repair ripoff, which Miele will decidedly perform on you, has the potential to erase every dollar of savings and likely more. Caveat emptor when it comes to gray market Miele purchases.

But they do make good stuff, no doubt about it.

I see your point, live wire oak. I'm usually pretty canny (I think) about which high end items are for me and which ones aren't. In the case of the Miele, the draw has more to do with energy savings, water conservation, and durability than with status or even near-term performance. The truth is, I find it very EMOTIONALLY expensive to throw stuff onto the landfill, like the 3-4 Maytags I could buy for the price of the Miele. So I tend to go out of my way to buy for the long haul. And based on my research, the Miele seems like the surest bet in this regard (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.)

In which case you might say, "so why not just cough up the extra 500 to buy a a Miele from an authorized dealer?" Because somewhere deep in my dog brain it just seems a little nuts to spend $1,400.00 on a DW. I actually find it a bit embarrassing, to be honest. Silly, I know. And then there's the fact that I've gotten a little bit spoiled of late, having managed to get a surprising amount of bang for my buck by researching the hell out of these things, like now. So yeah, I'm trying to have my cake and eat it too. It may not be possible in this case. But you can't blame a girl for trying.

we must have cross-posted. Thank you for sharing your insight and experience. I am starting to shy away from this whole ebay purchase based on warnings from you and others, even as I defend my deeper impulses to save some dough on a decidedly overpriced product (superior though it may be).

I guess I can console myself with the thought that by capitulating to Miele's excessive pricing, I may help to convince other manufacturers of the value of making a more durable product. And when and if they ever catch on, companies like Miele will no longer have such a monopoly on quality, and prices will come down. Right? Isn't that how the system works?

Yes, you guessed it: I read your thread about the warranty-less coffee maker. The whole thing. Now there's an exciting way to spend the morning! Yowza!

I wanted a Miele DW for the reasons you stated. I ended up buying one from an Authorized Dealer, but instead of buying one with all the bells and whistles, a million cycles and functions, etc. I bought the 2nd-from-the-bottom-of-the-line. The controls are on the front, not hidden in the door, and as it turns out, I prefer the controls on the front anyway. Just having the controls on the front was about a $400 difference from the model with the hidden controls. I couldn't be happier with my Miele DW. Even though it doesn't have all the different functions/cycles of the more expensive Mieles, I still only use 2 or 3 of the cycles it does have. It's a little noisier than the more expensive Miele DW's, but it's plenty quiet enough. So, if you want to save $500, perhaps buy a lower model Miele than whichever is the one you're considering, and have the peace of mind of buying from an Authorized Dealer. And, if you have a "Miele authorized installer" install it, Miele doubles the warranty.

Meanwhile, my sister has one of the KA DW's and loves it. She also enjoys reminding me that hers cost about $800 less than my Miele. KA also frequently offers rebates (they're offering one right now $100-150, see their website), and you can negotiate with salespeople on the KA DW prices a bit, which you can't with Miele products.

I still wouldn't trade in my Miele DW for anything, but I certainly didn't need the fancier ones they make, and used that money elsewhere in my kitchen.

$500 off a brand new Miele appliance without a warranty doesn't represent any "saving" at all. You merely start out owning an item of unknown potential with at best an inferior or nonexistent support system provided by a company known for "a hard nosed take it or return it for refund attitude" towards its customers who pay full price. Your experience will not even reach that level.

Compare this to those who self imported gray market high end induction cooktop units from England a few years ago with no expectation of any warranty but saved 50% or more compared to inferior more expensive units available here at the time. The rule of thumb being if it failed, buy another one and you were still money ahead.

I don't see your seller having much leverage in this case, perhaps he isn't aware how tight Miele is and what a tough sell he really has ahead of him. He is honest enough to say no warranty from him. If you want to chance it, offer no more than half price and remember time is on your side for more new product and lower prices to show up.

I wouldn't put too much faith in laissez faire solutions to marketplace inequities and abuses such as legalized price fixing.

I prefer consumer-friendly regulation, which is how we used to operate before 30 years of deregulation and right wing corporatist judicial appointments.

In Europe, price fixing and restraint of trade schemes like MAP Policies are illegal.

I don't blame Miele so much as I blame our govt. for letting them get away with it here.

In any case, for your particular issue, Viva, you are probably wise to steer clear of deals that do not involve a good warranty.

On the other hand, it is always fun to say "screw you" and just buy what you want. Roll the bones. I like doing anything I can to thwart corporatist arrogance in my daily life and if you have some wiggle room in the old budget, go ahead and get what you want and tell Miele and their MAP to pack sand.

I hate the price fixing as much or more than you do, Mojavean, but look at Congress as well as the Presidency, all are controlled by "Far to the left Liberals"---in fact they make former Chairman Mao look to be more of a "Centrest". The Problem is, "We have the best Politicians that Money can buy, (regardless of party) and until power is taken away from these Idiots you can guess what we will be "Sucklin' On" as far as our interests are concerned---Don't ya Think?

Gary

Gary/Dodge59--
though I think you and I are likely on the same side of the Great Political Spectrum, let's not get into politics. That's what hotair.com, huffpo, etc are for.

But regarding MAP, that's what Rolex has done successfully for years (I'm a Watch Guy) and they are considered a model of good management. Compare that to the myriad prices you can find for Girard Perregaux or JLC. Anyway, it's only price fixing if companies collude, not if one company holds the line on its prices and brutalizes any retailer that violates its policies.

What irks me, and not to be political, is that WE, You and I, asked for, and got a law that forbid price fixing. Then they rename it, Pay off a couple "Kangaroo Judges" and again we have price fixing.

You know as well as I do, the quality of a Rolex, why doesn't it have the "Ba**s" to stand on it's own for what it is, instead of getting corrupt Judges and or Politicians to set the value of its worth?

I sympathise (Spelling?) with the folks here that want a Miele or another appliance of their choice, and they havta take what could be "dangerous" decisions as to how to acquire them, just cause some ijuts far away from us said
We are gonna price these appliances as "High End", yet the same thing can be procurred in the Mother Country (Germany) in this case for 40 cents on the dollar.

In fact there is a good chance that the appliances they offer there, for less money are more advanced that what they offer us "Succer Yanks". (Example) Miele has a new (from the post I read, pretty nifty drying system) for their new dishwashers---You don't hafta be an "Alchemist" with just the right (amount and type) of Jet Dry, Salt, and Phase of the moon to dry plastics in these new ones.
Thanks whoever posted the info on that DW!!!

Anyway, ya right about the politics, just wanted everyone to know that "Price Fixing" is not a "party or politically Leaning thing, all our Govt is guilty of it!!!!

Gary

Just wanted to say thanks again for all of the insightful and HUGELY informative responses above.

I have definitively walked away from this particular ebay deal. I concede the seller is probably operating on good-faith optimism that Miele will cover the warranty; I'm just no longer as optimistic as he seems to be.

OTOH, I'm going to hold out as long as I can for the best possible deal on a Miele DW WITH warranty. (And yes, I'm only looking at the lower end models, don't really need more than that.) Hoping, for example, to find a floor model of a discontinued machine from an authorized dealer. Or do you think Miele prevents dealers from discounting floor models too? Now THAT would be a straight-jacket.

Not sure what the Miele policy is, but I do know that there are dealers who will horsetrade with you. Call around and ask if any dealers around you have what you want. Tell them you are looking for a showroom display with a full warranty, or better yet, something that has been sitting in the shop's warehouse for too many months and they want to move.

And don't forget the magic words that make any salesman salivate:

"I am ready to buy now if I can find a good deal."

Miele "policies" are one thing; just remember, you can negotiate anything.

Best wishes and good luck finding what you want.

When Miele, Whirlpool, Electolux, Samsung, LG and GE all charge the same price for a DW, you can then call it price fixing.

Otherwise, the Supreme Court has upheld the right of a manufacturer to set the price of its own products as well as how those products come to market.

If you want to dance with Miele, you have to pay their piper.

Generally all manufacturer's will let dealers dicount floor models, discontinued models, scracth and dent, etc. and provide a warranty.

No. I can and will call it price fixing now. It has been called that here for 100 years.

BTW, Leegin decidedly does not say Miele is legal.

What it changed is that instead of it being automatically illegal, now it must be evaluated according to what is called the "rule of reason," which attempts to determine, dialectically, the degree of harm the specific price fixing scheme inflicts.

Basically, Leegin said that formerly illegal price fixing schemes must now be decided on their overall effect on the marketplace. A good lawyer and a couple million bucks expense money could very well make Mr. Miele wet his bed.

Neither I nor any other person here "has" to pay Miele even one second's heed. IVTFM* on their piper. IVTFM** on their whole orchestra for all I care. I am not a party to their price fixing. I am not a signatory of their RPM extortion and I am not in the least concerned about either what they or their subject dealers demand. My obligation to them ended when they got my money. That's the way they look at me so screw 'em.

But I can't say I don't enjoy the circus watching all the laissez fairests see how far they can jam their noses up Miele's butt.

*Insert Vulgar Term For Micturition
**go peepee

I think some definitions are getting mixed here
MSRP = Manufacturers Suggested Retail Price -> this is what the manufacturer suggests as a good selling price point. A dealer can opt to sell at any price they feel like, higher or lower.

MAP = Miminum Advertised Price -> This is the lowest price that the manufacturer will accept a unit to be advertised at. Most of the time this has to do with ad co-ops. However a dealer can and often does sell under this price.

Price Fixing = no one is allowed to sell an item for less than a specific amount.

In all reality a dealer can make any deal they want. If they want to sell all Miele D/W's for $100 a unit, nothing can stop them from doing this. But under the rules they agreed to abide by they just can't "advertise" they are doing it.

"decidedly overpriced product (superior though it may be). "

How is it overpriced if it is superior? That doesn't make sense. - More than you want to pay or more than you value it is something else though.

" Miele's excessive pricing"

Why do you consider their pricing excessive. They have demonstrated over the long term they can make innovative products that last longer than the average. Shouldn't they charge more? Or do you think they should price it the same as the worst appliance co.'s stuff. Communism and Gvt. price controls don't work.

" yet the same thing can be procurred in the Mother Country (Germany) in this case for 40 cents on the dollar. "

dodge - please show me where a like for like item (models don't have to be exact but features do) comes anywhere close to this . You're cousin's sister's friend in Germany's opinion doesn't count. A web link is fine and I'll do the digging.

Remember their product offering at home is much greater so comparing a bare bones that is not even available here to a LaPerla and of $2k is not an accurate assessment or fair.

BTW, it's Fatherland.

"No. I can and will call it price fixing now. It has been called that here for 100 years. "

Yep, you can call it whatever you like, and you don't have to like it either. But you'd still be wrong. The law was upheld by the Supreme Court Justices which act fairly independent of the other branches of government. Sure the members may have certain leanings of the President which appointed them but they are not puppets or yes men. They interpret the LAW not, the political winds or lobbyist's ramblings and junkets. Just because it may not net the consumer the lowest price does not make it illegal.

Perhaps you guys should study your history books. Sherman Act was put up by a Republican- the same party that gets accused of being big business friendly. It intent was to prevent monopolies like Rockefeller's Standard oil which could manipulate the price because it controlled almost all distribution.

Miele 's market share is a drop in the bucket and Mr. Miele doesn't call up Mr. Gaggenau and Mr. KitchenAid and say: lets all charge $1400 for our dishwasher and $2500 for our coffee machines. Even if they did there would still be enough players to avail the consumer choices at many price points.

"In all reality a dealer can make any deal they want."

True and some do just that. This is the lynchpin o the whole deal. Manuf. say sell we want you to sell and advertise it at this price. You can do whatever you wan though, We an too, and we don't want dealers that sell our stuff at cut rates. So if you continue to sell below cost we are just not going to support you and supply you with products. No one is forcing a dealer to offer MAP or UMRP lines nor is anyone forcing the consumer to buy them, most dealers have several options of products under rigid pricing and sliding scale too.

Food for thought: stop whining about high $$$ Miele's or Rolexes or Gucci bags. Part of the reason you want these is for their high style, and high quality materials even if the "exclusivity" means squat to you. You could have got a 300 expresso machine why didn't you? Makes expresso just like the Miele.

All of this innovation, style, ect.. costs $$$ and you can't feed the innovation and quality machine making $39 Mr.Coffees.

Car companies and dealers have been "fixing" prices for years according to some people's narrow definition. Almost everyone complains about the car buying experience where the consumer get to play turkish bazaar and tell his or her friend's "I got a great deal" and a few years later complain that car salesmen suck are right there on the likability list with pond scum and lawyers.

Even under these pricing schemes the MARKET is still controlling the outcome. If enough people feel the price to value quotient isn't good enough, companies that practice it will change or go bust. Bose and Rolex have been doing this for decades and they haven't changed and are still in business while others in their industry that practiced pick a payment have folded camp.

Where is it stated that it's the burden of the buyer to determine if the seller of a factory sealed unit is in fact that of an authorized seller? If it came sealed from the factory, why is it's the consumers job to police and figure out if in fact the seller is allowed to sell the product in accordance with the manufacturer. Last time I looked the consumer is spending money, not making it from the manufacturer to make sure the appropriate dealers are selling the unit, that's their job.....

1. What Miele is doing has not been judged legal by the Supreme Court. The court did not discuss Miele's particular brand of price fixing, The Supreme Court did not even find what Leegin was doing legal. All they said was that Leegin could not be prevented from trying to justify its actions in court according to the rule of reason.

2. As I explained before, Leegin found that instances of vertical market manipulation must be judged individually according to a competition/anti-competition examination in a court of law. This discussion is to include the actual factors at work in the individual market in question. The merits of Leegin's case were not decided, only that they could present evidence in their favor in trial whereas before they had been enjoined from doing so by prior court rulings saying that ANY RPM was intrinsically or "per se" illegal.

3. Mieles price fixing results in the same price being charged everywhere in the country. If anyone, such as I, succeeds in paying less than that, the manufacturer acts punitively against both the seller and the buyer. The result? Virtual price homogeneity. This artificial maintenance of prices is exactly the market flaw that the Sherman Act was designed to combat. Sure, we have a few laissez faire douchenozzles on the Supreme Court who swore under oath to uphold legal precedent and then overruled stare decisis issues at least 3 times in just the past 3 years. (Oh, but don't those Republicans hate judicial activism?) Anyway, Miele is not off the hook at all. It must go to court. One could but hope that that day will come soon.

4. If every manufacturer did precisely what Miele is doing, we would have NO retail competition in America. As I pointed out before, if the same price is being charged everywhere, and, for Miele, it is, then that means the competitive benefit to the consumer in keeping retail prices down has been destroyed.

Now, I have no doubt that the Republican corporatists on the Supreme Court would just love to allow Miele to have their laissez faire way with the moist, quivering, wallets of the U.S. consumer. And Antss, I am sure you would concur as it keeps you from having to climb into the cage with the Miele dealer down the street and get bloody every time you want to sell a dishwasher. It keeps you from having to go toe to toe with the big box stores and the internet, too. So it is cozy for you, doubtless.

But if everyone did the same thing, which -- if this practice is legal and a good idea -- should be the case, then you would see pricing homogeneity on every consumer good sold. You would see competition across brands, but not across retailers. That is precisely what we have now with the Miele supply channel.

The only reason Miele is not hanging out to dry right now is that they are a niche manufacturer, familiar mostly to aficianados and the urban rich. Nobody cares if the rich get screwed, even the rich. But as word of mouth about the brand spreads, and it is spreading, demand for the product is going to go up. Eventually, a states attorney somewhere is going to notice that the darned things cost the same no matter where you go, put two and two together, and then the hammer is going to fall on the Miele boys. I do hope they are putting a little money away for the legal defense fund.

Miele enforces the back side of the sale by demanding a faxed copy of the receipt before any warranty work can commence. All service is handled through Miele corporate. Since they get the serial number from the customer, the price and selling retailer from the receipt, and they know exactly who they sold the machine to, all of the pieces of the puzzle are there. They can spank the retailer, hose the customer, deny warranty coverage on an undeniable manufacturer's defect, and otherwise behave like the piles of schnitzel they are.

In my case, I had an inkling that I MIGHT run into trouble, but was by no means certain of it until I called for service on my coffee machine and found out I was now Miele's beehotch. Contrast that treatment with what I got from Bluestar. I bought my range from a liquidator in Chatsworth for a substantial discount, half what most pay for the slightly upmodel RNB. But when I broke one of the ignitors moving the range and completely told the truth to Bluestar, Prizer-Painter sent me a free replacement and honored my warranty.

The cool thing is Miele gets paid either way. They can muscle a small retailer into taking product that won't move, say an expensive coffee machine that can only be used in new construction or costly remodeling. And when the retailer can't sell it in the store at Miele's artificially inflated price, can't advertise it for less on the internet because Miele will whack his knuckles, so he lists it on ebay under a fake name without telling the potential buyer what he's in for should he need warranty service. Everything is hunky dory for Miele, they got paid, the retailer can blame it on his sales manager or something, and the guy left holding the bag is the customer.

Jakvis, MAP is not what Miele is doing. MAP is what Garmin does with their gear. You just have to put the item in the cart to see the real price.

Miele is surreptitiously, or even openly for all I know, threatening their dealers that sell below the floor price. There is no doubt that a seller puts his distributorship in jeopardy by selling below the floor price Miele demands its products go for. Dealers are actively cautious about it, as I discovered when I went Miele shopping. It does not mean the system cannot be circumvented, but Miele has a pretty tight lid on it.

"Where is it stated that it's the burden of the buyer to determine if the seller of a factory sealed unit is in fact that of an authorized seller?

If it is , it will be on a manufacturers website or sales literature with language like "only product sold through authorized dealers will be warranted"

"the manufacturer to make sure the appropriate dealers are selling the unit, that's their job....."

well - isn't that what they are attempting to do through these heavy handed dealer agreements and denied warranty claims?

"Mieles price fixing results in the same price being charged everywhere in the country......... The result? Virtual price homogeneity."

Only for Miele products of which they are the sole produce of. they do not control the prices of their competitors' dishwashers, oven , coffee machines and fridges. The result is the consumer has plenty of choice in price, quality and access to products.

I think what all the haters seem to forget is ALL MANUFACTURERS control their prices at the basic level. Want a Hotpoint stove, Magic Chef dishwasher? Who sets those prices - that's right Magic Chef and Hotpoint. Their distributors don't get to say "hey, we'll give $77 for those stoves". So , in essence this whole thing is just one step removed you/we/us don't get to go to the "middle man" and say "I'll give you $699 for that coffee machine"

"If every manufacturer did precisely what Miele is doing, we would have NO retail competition in America"

Right, but they don't .

The system won't allow it - that's the underlying beauty of it. There is something out there for everyone. Stop whining that the best or even perceived best products and services are priced higher than you think thy should be.
" "which -- if this practice is legal and a good idea -- should be the case"
you are drawing too narrow and erroneous conclusion on this. It's (price agreements) not always a good idea for all companies. It can hurt the lower an mid tier manuf. because sales will fall off - they are more in a commodity business. This scheme only works for upper tier products.

Re: Bluestar, you're happy cause you gamed the system and got a free ignitor that cost $20., why wouldn't you be psyched? How bout the fella round here that paid full price from an and is getting hosed by them for his defective ignitors?

RE: competing w/the box stores. We don't engage in that any more than Rolls Royce competes with KIA, Their customers are not ours, and only a prat would think they could compete in both market segments. Depot learned this painful lesson with their Expo concept. And for while you could get a miele DW from Expo or our studio. Our folks have 20 + yrs experience each with them, and many have them in their homes, you'd be lucky if the Expo "associate" could even pronounce the name correctly, the competition was over service and the price scheme allowed for that to be the focus. That allows Miele to maintain ITS brand equity by not allowing big players with deep pockets to change the focus to price and erode Miele's brand downward. It's about the mauf. controlling it's business, not the seller. Maybe you can go ask the Maytag boys what went wrong with their business. They used to be king of hill, made great quality products and they were certainly not the cheapest.

Hint: they allowed their brand to be marginalized by outside forces and price pressures.

So what have we learned here? Miele's price manipulation takes away the retail competitive pricing component of the market. When actual market-driven sales occur, such as when a dealer sneaks stock out of the warehouse and onto ebay or craigslist in order just to get it off his books, Miele punishes him and his unwary or naive customers. This allows Antss to have a guaranteed profit margin on every sale without having to worry about anybody undercutting his price. Because unlike every other seller of product in the country, Antss should not have to worry about the price component of his market. Miele takes care of that for him. And that is as it should be because this is all happening up in the clouds in that rarified stratus where the peasantry can't fly.

BTW, Antss. What killed Maytag? Their failure to engage in anti-competitive vertical market price manipulation? I don't think so. I think the fact that they designed a flawed machine that they could not fix yet continued to sell is what killed Maytag. That along with the fact that they caught acquisition fever and incurred more debt than they could handle and tried to compensate by cutting corners on product quality.

The Neptune was the dagger's plunge for Maytag.

I don't get it. If I don't want to pay what Miele demands, I have about 25 other brands to choose from. It's a *dishwasher,* not a necessary commodity like lycine or sugar. I can't afford a Ferrari either, but I don't get all mad that they won't discount a California to $23,999.

I brought up the Rolex example above. Their tight control over price and retailers also ensures that their product, though not the greatest watch in the world by any means, holds its value tremendously well for collectors/resellers. Similarly, this likely means that Miele owners, should they desire to sell their used dishwasher on eBay or wherever, can get a far higher amount than with another brand of dishwasher.

"What killed Maytag? Their failure to engage in anti-competitive vertical market price manipulation? I don't think so"

Thought you'd see it that way. I didn't say that at all, proves you only have a one track mind on this matter.

What killed Maytag was their inability to pump enough money into their system to keep innovating AND delivering quality products and services. This was because weren't able to maintain margins. They may or may not have been able to do that through a UMRP scheme, who knows. My point was they couldn't generate enough revenue to maintain their once lofty status because they let the market get them.

"Because unlike every other seller of product in the country"

TOTALLY FALSE and UNTRUE.

Many companies engage in this practice across different sectors, Miele is not the only one. The marketplace is still intact at several levels. You as the consumer have the ability to select to do business with me or not. Just like I can choose to not have you as a customer if I don't want your money or think you just smell bad or drive an two door car. Likewise, I can choose to do business with Miele or Whirlpool and vice versa. This happens all the time. I once wanted a fast food franchise and was politely told no , not because I didn't have enough cash or business sense, but because I had no fast food experience. Those were the rules of that co., and while maybe not fair or equitable it's their business they are looking after so it was TS for me. Appliance and stereo and car and .... dealers are closed out by manuf. all the time for poor sales volume, it's just how it is. Same with those that don't abide by other provisions of sales agreements.

Look, I get it. You know I buy stuff too, and was schooled at an early age in bargaining by grandmother who ran a wholesale grocery business, so fixed prices knaw at me sometimes too. Haven't you ever run into a vendor at the flea market who's price is "FIRM"? That's the same thing as UMRP.

Seems you were crowing about Obama Care and how great that's going to be for everyone. If that wasn't you , I apologize in advance. What's a MIAN component of that? YEP, you win a cookie, fixed pricing and price intervention.

Hey , but that's OK cause good ol' uncle has the people's best interest at heart, and granny while granny might need that hip I sure don't need this wiz bang espresso machine. Oh, but what about the orthopod who can't make his med school payment cause he's now getting 40 cents on the dollar for that replacement? Oh he'll be OK cause he's rich and already has a built in espresso maker.

When actual market-driven sales occur, such as when a dealer sneaks stock out of the warehouse and onto ebay or craigslist in order just to get it off his books,

You said something similar on your Miele coffee system thread. Where are getting this assertion from? Who told you that Miele Authorized Dealers are sneaking stock to sell on eBay or Craigs List? I would like substantiation from you on this statement.

I think that a lot of Miele/Wolf/Subzero on eBay or Craig's List are returned items, or floor models, or have some kind of flaw so that they can only be sold like "seconds", though they're never called that on the eBay/Craig's List listings. And there's nothing wrong with that if the buyer understands it. Hey, I bought all my Le Creuset cookware as seconds, and they're fantastic, and I'll have them for years to come. But why would a dealer sell brand spanking new perfect Miele appliances for less than s/he can get via his/her storefront?

Here's what I've seen - I live near Abt Appliance, they're gargantuan (if you're ever in Chicago, it's worth a trip to Abt for those of us who are Appliance Nerds). Every time I go there, during this terrible recession, I have seen Miele and Subzero appliances sold right before my eyes, like they're flying off the shelves. Clearly, there is a large market segment willing to pay UMRP. One day, I was admiring the $13000 Subzero Pro48 Fridge, and eavesdropping on the salesman giving the pitch to a potential buyer. Within about 5 minutes, the buyer said "I'll take it, when can you deliver?". I also chatted with the salesperson who helped me with my appliance purchases--I bought a Miele DW and washer/dryer from him. He told me that "Miele's always sell, there's always a market for them because they're made to last and people will pay more for that". I just don't see Miele Authorized Dealers with poor inventory ratios desperately looking to unload them for less than UMRP on eBay. There's always a reason they're selling for less than market value.

Well, I think you have stumbled onto something here, Antss, because, as near as I can determine, "failure to pump enough money into their system" because they couldn't "maintain margins" is very much a description of every business failure in history. So you are batting 1000.

The question is why didn't Maytag have enough money coming in? Or was it too much going out?

Whatever. Maytag was a billion in debt, losing money on the sale of unprofitable subsidiaries, saddled with underperforming manufacturing facilities, and had bet the farm on a machine that proved to be a dog that landed them in court and into a class action settlement that included buying customers brand new 1000 dollar washers. They lost the battle to Whirlpool Bauchnect and the Neptune is what lost them the battle.

Also, you are taking my sarcasm a bit too literally. I did not mean to imply that Miele is the ONLY manufacturer engaging in the practice of retail price maintenance, but it certainly is not a commonplace practice at this juncture. How do I know this? I, and every other shopper in the country can still successfully price shop and encounter deltas in pricing across the spectrum of retailers for the vast majority of goods from artichokes to Veblen-class commodities. Including Rolex watches. You CAN price shop those, I am afraid.

And your ability to frame an analogy needs some work, Antss. Miele is NOT the guy at the fleamarket. Miele is the guy who makes whatever it is the guy at the fleamarket sells. Nobody is claiming that the guy who makes the stuff should not charge exactly what he wants to charge.

Nobody is claiming that the guy at the fleamarket should not charge exactly what HE wants. And that is the point. Because what Miele is doing is making the stuff, charging what it wants for it, but then telling the guy at the fleamarket what HE can sell it for, threatening his supply if he does not.

If Miele wants to keep its prices high then they are perfectly free to charge whatever they wish for their products through their wholesale system. That is not what they are doing. They are preventing retailers from selling in accordance with what THEIR market realities are. Resulting in near homgeneity of price across every outlet.

Now, in this discussion I HAVE NOT introduced other, previously adjudged legal forms of restraint of trade. Territories, Dealership networks, franchise agreements, all are examples of restraint of trade that have been found legal, for good or bad. I have not said word one about this. Your tossing it in is a strawman and a time waster.

Price maintenance is the subject. It was previously illegal, has now been found to be POSSIBLY legal. It remains to be seen whether Congress will address this, but I have a feeling we are going to be finding out because the sleeping titans are starting to get pissed. Ebay being one,

One more thing: "Health reform" was only the most minimal attempt at regulation of the insurance market. The rest of the world has shown the USA how it should be done in order to save the most lives for far less cost. We did not do that. All the health care reform bill is is an attempt to begin to regulate a market in anarchy where insurers could offload risk at will and cherry-pick the market, which is fine, unless it is you or your wife or your kid getting the recision letter.

Here's the good thing about the health care bill: It can be fixed if parts don't work. This is in contrast to leaving things as they were, sitting on your hands, and refusing to address real problems. Or imagining that letting everybody do exactly what they want will fix everything magically, which is the Laissez Fairest's answer to every economic dilemma.

Here's an example, akchicago. Pick up the phone and call the store and ask him yourself.

He's down in Antss neighborhood, I think, so maybe Antss is schooling him in the full-price war. LOL.

Here is a link that might be useful: Ebay auction for new CVA 4062

I am happy to buy their products on line from an authorized dealer and get free shipping and not pay the sales tax.

Mojavean - Sorry, I'm not understanding why you linked that (are you saying I'm right, heh heh?). The eBay seller is selling that Miele CVA 4062 for what everyone else is selling it. Plus he's charging $185 to ship it. My local Miele Authorized Dealer will throw in free delivery.

Per Antss request, I did a lot of goggling trying to compare US Miele prices and products versus Miele prices and products in Europe. It will take more time as they do not use the same model number or even sizes, 76cm would be the same size as 30" ovens here, but Miele doesn't offer many of those in Europe, More common is the 70 CM and just a kwick check (like I said, I have more work to do) but at least comparing 27 inchers (70cm) on average, I see about a grand less in Europe, one was $3300 here, and around $2300 there, alto prices varied as much as +/-$500 (US) as prices are not fixed there.
In my hunt , I learned a few interesting things. First many of the Aussies as well as New Zeelanders shop for their Mieles in Europe(Holland in particular) it seems fixed prices at least for Miele seem to be the rule "Down Under"
Another interesting thing I found, and maybe this is just in Europe (Maybe Antss can answer?) The Retailers do not own the Miele Appliances in their showrooms, Miele does, so the retailer does not hafta put any money out for "Miele Inventory" When the retailer sells one, It is actually Miele that ships it. Thanks kind of a "Sweet Deal" for the Retailer?
Anyway Antss, not picking on you!!!, Elux price fixes too, but not double the price of "comparable Appliances" as does Miele--alto that still is better than Gag who charges at least four times more.
Speaking for myself, (Maybe Mojavean concuurs), It's "No Skin off our noses" what Miele does now--we got our stuff, but I would like to see the other folks here at least have a reasonable chance to equip thier new kitchens at a somewhat reasonable expense, without having to resort to the really low - end stuff (Nuttin matter with that stuff) but like many of us they want a bit More than that.
One last example, then I leave you in Peace, I bought my 48" built in Jenn-air Fridge on 06-20-06 Paid $4588 for it compare that to a similar Fridge now (Just 4 years later)

Nufff Said!!!

Gary

Woops! Sorry, AK. I was thinking it was the 4066, like the one I have. They don't seem to have any of those up now, but when I find one I will let you know.

Gary, you are doing some good work. Keep it up!