You need to talk to an agricultural librarian, maybe IFIS has someone locally there, or see if there is a grange historian who can help you go through purcahse records from those yearss.

Listing of Florida grange representatives.

Here is a link that might be useful: Florida Keys -Historical Farming

Darrell Merrell aka The Tomato Man reports that the oldest tomato variety is 'Moneymaker', an English variety between 250 and 300 years old. It was the first English variety grown for market sale -- hence its name.

He further stated that a seed catalog dated 1863 only listed 17 varieties. That should make the search a bit easier. ;)

Dave

And Chuck Wyatt said Borgo Cellano was 400 years old, but that doesn't really answer the question re the Florida Keys. ( smile) And Moneymaler wasn't that old, just hype and you can check that out by Googling it, and I don't believe that Botgo Cellano was that old either/ (smile)

Corrie, what was the source of your information about the dates and referring to "big" tomatoes?

I did quite a bit of Googling last night and if you enter Florida Keys History tomato you'll find some links that might help answer your questions.

But I don't think you're going to find the names of any specific varieties .

Have you read Andrew Smith's book on the history of the tomato as to even when tomatoes appeared in the Keys?

I could put some of those links to the Keys here but I bet you could do the same detective work. ( smile)

Carolyn

The moneymaker tomato came into being about the twenties or thirties in England, it was deemed that all smallholders and allotment holders should grow it in preference to anything else during the war when things were scarce.

The reason given by the Ministry of ag and fish was because it would almost grow anywhere and was utterly reliable as a crop.

Thanks guys!
I've read all the books and anything on the internet, met most of the authors too.

this is from Trudi's link:
"The Florida Times-Union newspaper of November 28, 1917 stated in its column "Islamorada Notes" that "There are thirty families living on the island: tomatoes, onions and limes are the principal crops. There are 183 acres of lime groves and about 100 acres of tomatoes and onions planted this season. [For an idea the original 1870s survey indicated Upper Matecumbe Key to be 848.61 acres in size.] The farmers will commence shipping tomatoes about December and will continue shipping until April. The best tomatoes grown are grown in the Florida Keys."

We don't plant down here until late Sept mid Oct. Combination of rain and hurricanes.

If they planted sometime at the end of Sept to mid Oct, and then started shipping in Dec
That's only a little over two months, 60 days.

Wouldn't that have to have been a early variety?

I know you guys have figured out that I'm trying to figure out a tomato variety for down here. A heirloom that you don't need a degree in chemical engineering to grow.

Corrie

I did quite a bit of Googling last night and if you enter Florida Keys History tomato you'll find some links that might help answer your questions.

*****

Is what I wrote above Corrie and yes, the link Trudi gave is just one of many that comes up with that search and I read it there as part of the search.

But tomatoes in the Keys were shipped mainly to Key West, and even that didn't last long. Pineapples were shipped up the East Coast, but not tomatoes.

But it didn't all start back in the early 1800's for at that time other than the currant tomatoes spread there and along the Gulf Coast by the Spanish, there were no other tomatoes there as some of the links will show you.

The varieties they used in the late 1800's to early 1900's for local production would probably be the same ones that were being grown in the East Coast states at that time, especially in NJ and the surrounding areas. And there's plenty of info on those varieties.

I do hear what you're saying about chemicals and all, but given that they didn't have sprays of this and that back then, who is to say there wasn't a lot of crop loss back then as well. I don't think it's reasonable to conclude that the tomatoes grown back then in the Keys were any more tolerant of most of the tomato diseases than the ones grown today of the OP type. Just my opinion.

Carolyn

I typed in IFIS above ;-O

It's IFAS. And they've got a great page on tomatoes for FLA.

Here is a link that might be useful: IFAS tom list

I really appreciate all the links guys, but I've read all the links, all the books, and everything on the internet before I started this thread.

"But tomatoes in the Keys were shipped mainly to Key West"

In the beginning yes, but that was the main reason Flagler built the railroad. Because of all the produce being produced in the Keys, he knew it was profitable to build the railroad and ship to Jacksonville.

" But it didn't all start back in the early 1800's for at that time other than the currant tomatoes spread there and along the Gulf Coast by the Spanish,"

The Matheson's had a plantation on Lignuvitae in the early 1800's, Perrine on Indian Key around 1830, etc

"I don't think it's reasonable to conclude that the tomatoes grown back then in the Keys were any more tolerant of most of the tomato diseases"

That's where I need your brain. ;-)

In Trudi's link it says in 1917 there were approx 100 acres devoted to tomatoes AND onions.
Backtrack, and in 1904 just two farms Russel and Pinder produced about 3000 crates of tomatoes each year.

"The varieties they used in the late 1800's to early 1900's for local production would probably be the same ones that were being grown in the East Coast states at that time,"

Carolyn, I'm completely heirloom tomato ignorant.
Can you suggest a couple of them that you think would be a good bet to try down here?

Thanks guys, you're the greatest
Corrie

Corrie,

If I wanted to know what tomato varieties most likely were grown in the Florida Keys historically, and which more modern open pollinated varieties will grow there best, I would contact This Guy rather than hoping someone in here is over 150 years old and remembers the good ol' days in the Keys.

Bill

If I wanted to know what tomato varieties most likely were grown in the Florida Keys historically, and which more modern open pollinated varieties will grow there best, I would contact This Guy rather than hoping someone in here is over 150 years old and remembers the good ol' days in the Keys.

*****

Yes, Dr. Jay Scott is a good one to contact and he's not over 150 years old either. LOL I know b'c I've talked with him on the phone before and he sure didn't SOUND like he was about 150 yo. ( smile)

I have a monograph from 1939 of the Michigan State Bulletin which presents a lot of older varieties starting in about 1868 and they include a lot of the ones grown on the East Coast and CA and inbetween at the same time, so if Dr. Scott isn't able to list appropriate varieties to grow in the Keys now, and you're still interested I'd be glad to list some that were grown back in the time frame you've been talking about Corrie. But they wouldn't be specifically from the Keys as I mentioned above.

Carolyn

Have you searched Agricola yet?

Here is a link that might be useful: Agricola

Corrie, I hope you post the information you find! (some of us are following this thread on the edge of our seats to see what great varieties do well in hot weather...)
Cabrita

Cabrita, I know, me too.

I didn't mean for this to become a Florida Keys history lesson, or a go look it up yourself thread.

I really thought it would be a great thread to discuss old varities of tomatoes, that people grew before chemicals, and acutally name the tomatoes. Also a timely thread. I know the rest of the country is pretty much putting it away for the winter, but it's time for us down here because we are just starting.

I guess I wasn't clear when I asked:
"Does anyone have any idea of what type of tomato that could have been?"

I was figuring that since so many people are into the heirloom tomatoes, someone might have an idea. There might have even been a heirloom that was known for coming from south Florida or something, I don't know.

Corrie

Corrie, leave it to you to stir up all this tomato history. This is a great thread and I am also on the edge of my seat. From one Florida tomato maniac to another, you go girl! This History is fascinating! I can't wait to see what you unearth and I am googling right behind you!

Being a novice myself in Heirloom tomatoes, I am depending on the descriptions from Linda Sapp-right here in Fort Myers at Tomato Growers. I am trying a lot of "heat/humidity tolerant" varieties and also other folks on the Florida forum are sharing tomato seeds with me that they have a successful track record with growing in our hot humid land. Thanks for stirring the dust up on this one.

Someone gifted me with a couple of Super Sioux Dakota seeds last spring. One of them made it all the way to adulthood and was moderately productive throughout the hot desert summer. It might have been even more so, if I had not used such restraint with the fish fertilizer. I fed it once a week but think twice a week would not have hurt it.

I kept it in a large tub in dappled shade and let it develop several vines to help shade the roots. I shook each bloom- bearing branch to encourage pollination, watered it daily, hand-plucked the hornworms off it when they appeared.

The tomatoes, which vary from golfball to tennis ball size, are the tastiest I've ever grown. This one plant has made an heirloom convert out of me.

Super Sioux and "Millet's Dakota" are supposed to be among the best varieties for hot dry conditions. They might not do so well in the humid climate of the Florida Keys, but I think you might like them, Cabrita.

The Heatwave hybrid next to it gave up when temperatures went over a hundred, but is blooming quite merrily again now that they have dropped to the nineties. But the taste doesn't come close to that of the Super Sioux.

j.

I did a few hours of googling and reading today and found the following - in no particular order.

Buist Catalog from 1858 listed only 4 varieties

An 1863 catalog listed "Trophy" as a large red smooth

Other Names and dates include:
Polish - late 1800's
Soldacki - Early 1900's
First Pick - No date given
Picardy - 1890
Besser - Late 1800's
Schellenburg's Favorite - No date given
Amish Paste - 1870
Elbe - 1889
Brandywine - 1885
Hillbilly, Old Virginia, Jeff Davis, 1884 - ca 1880-1920

I didn't write down all the dates, but here's another list. Other Tomatoes in ascending order of date appearing:

Ferry's Improved - Early-Mid 1800's
Tilden's
Genreal Grant
Red Pear
Trophy
Canada Victor
Acme
Essex Early Hybrid
Turk's Turban
Favorite
Golden Queen
Early Michigan
Mikado
Buckeye State
Matchless
Earliana - 1904
Globe
Bonny Best
Avon Early
Cooper's Special

I also Emailed the guy who did and still does the Keys History (AND HE ANSWERED). Jerry said that when they did the research, they didn't think to ask about the variety names while there were people alive who could have given that info.

The list of tomatoes above is really a list of some possibilities - some very familiar. Most were present during the timeframe of Keys tomato production. But, having said that, I have to add that there were several references I ran into that eluded to as many as 150 varieties available around the turn of the century.

One question I was left with is why no one seemed to want to try and explain how the Creole's were putting tomatoes into their gumbo recipes in the 1812 timeframe when the supposed historians are all saying the tomato went to Europe and then came back to North America. Personally, I suspect migration from Mexico to Louisiana.

My searches were for Tomato History, Florida History, and even some of the historical people names I ran into. I may look further another time, but that's all I can stand right now. :>)

Other Names and dates include:
Polish - late 1800's
Soldacki - Early 1900's
First Pick - No date given
Picardy - 1890
Besser - Late 1800's
Schellenburg's Favorite - No date given
Amish Paste - 1870
Elbe - 1889
Brandywine - 1885
Hillbilly, Old Virginia, Jeff Davis, 1884 - ca 1880-1920

*****

Ted, the problem with dating the OP heirlooms is that while the time of their entry into the US via immigration may be known that doesn't say that the seeds were available.They were grown within a family and didn't become available until much later.

Let me take Soldacki as one example since you listed it above and it's one that I introduced.

I got seeds for this variety from Carmen Artino who was a colleague of mine at the last place I taught at. The variety came down in his wife's family and it was known that the seeds came to the US from Poland in about 1900. But seeds of it weren't available to the public until I listed it in the SSE Yearbook in the early 90's.

And here's some others that I introduced where the date of when they came to the US or were first grown does not say that the seeds were available to anyone outside the family where they had been grown for generations.

Gogosha
Crnkovic Yugoslavian
Yasha Yugoslavian
Ilse's Yellow Latvian
Amish Salad
Soldacki
Chris Ukranian
Earl of Edgecombe
Eva Purple Ball ( co-introduced)
German Red Strawberry
Gold Ball
Golden Queen (USDA)
Heidi
Jaune Flamme
Jaune Negib
Kiev
Large Pink Bulgarian
Lida Ukrainian
Marizol Gold
Olena Ukrainian
Omar's Lebanese
Opalka
Orange Strawberry
Pink Ice

......and that's enough I think to make my point about a date when a variety was first known and a date when seeds first became available to the public.

And I could say the same about others on your list and a wide variety of others that I know of, that is, the date when they came from Europe or elsewhere does not equate with seed availability to the public at large.

But here's my question for you Corrie.

It's one thing to scan old seed catalogs for varieties, or even read the long list in the back of Andrew Smith's book on tomato history, or for me to post a long list from the Michigan State Bulletin of 1939 which lists the varieties available to the public starting in about 1868, but is that what you want to do? I'm not so sure what that accomplishes, again, b'c of seed availability not being known to FL growers, etc.

Or do you want to concentrate on what varieties are good to grow in a hot humid climate of ones availalbe NOW.

Florida is not unique in terms of growing tomatoes for the same tomato problems obtain up the East Coast to about NC and then West along the Gulf Coast to TX.

And if one does a search here at GW ( bottom of page) there's thread after Thread after thread asking about hot/humid weather tomatoes.

But I'll also say that I have quite a few friends in the SE including FL, and they can grow almost ANY variety they want to, the key is timing in terms of two crops a year.

Foliage diseases and a few other diseases can be a problem, but at least the growers of tomatoes in the late 1800's and early 1900's didn't have the gemini virus diseases of tomatoes to worry about as you do now.

Carolyn

"One question I was left with is why no one seemed to want to try and explain how the Creole's were putting tomatoes into their gumbo recipes in the 1812 timeframe ..."

1. There are many gumbo recipes from the past, and many in present use, that do not contain tomatoes at all ... they are roux-based and tomatoless.

2. Many gumbo recipes which were tomatoless in the past have had tomatoes added to the recipes over the years ... evolution at work.

3. The definition of "Creole" (loosely) is any resident of Louisiana descended from original direct European immigrants. In other words, Europeans who entered Louisiana immigrating from Europe (including via the Caribbean) were called Creoles and those immigrating from Arcadia (Northeastern Canada) were called Cajuns. So, you can easily see that tomatoes could've been carried into Louisiana by "Creoles" from Italy, Spain, etc., earlier than 1812, and incorporated into "Creole" gumbo early on.

Bill

Carolyn, I agree that any given variety may not have been generally available to the "public". However, I think Corrie was referring to the "commercial" operations that took advantage of Mr. Flagler's Railroad.

In my post, I was trying to make the point that the information available is such that without direct knowledge by folks who were there at the time, the varieties used can only be guessed at. I simply put in the post the info available out there. Certainly, if a variety was prominent enough to be documented in newspapers and other historical documents and publications, it was at least generally well known.

Bill, you're also correct. The tomatoes did not go into EVERY soup and gumbo - and, one of my great-great grandmas was Creole. The topic on the websites was that many folks thought tomatoes were poison. This lasted well into the late 1800's. It's because the tomato is related to the Night Shade. In trying to make the point that tomatoes are NOT poison, several sites stated that the Creoles were incorporating tomaotes into soups and gumbos as early as 1812. After reading that several times, I felt like they may have been quoting each other.

The more that I read, the more a picture began growing in my mind that most of what we are taught about those times could be falling short of the real truth. The many old letters and other documents led me to believe that there was a lot of contact all around the Gulf, Central and South America, and all of the islands, and trade was much more prevalent than I had ever thought possible.

I found it interesting that Thomas Jefferson was a tomato grower - home garden only. And I liked the (unsubstantiated) story that "Polish" was smuggled into the US stuck to the back of a stamp.

And, Carolyn, you are correct when you say that lists are almost useless and to some degree confusing. I would recommend to Corrie that she should choose some of the ones from that era and try them. If they work, well and good. If not, then try some more modern varieties. And so forth.......

A lot of the history of the tomato is cast somewhat in shadows. Peru to the Mayans and then worldwide. Never mind the reference to ancient Egypt. Ancient trade from Africa to South America. First tomato to Italy was yellow. Some of all that is documented and some supposed. It was, however, very interesting to read the info available and not take any of it literally - just allowing the whole of the data to draw a picture. Having said that, I must also say that sometimes the data was conflicting. Info from one site would not agree with the next one.

Anyhow, it was a fun read. It will take some time for me to decide how much of it to believe and how much will remain suspect.

This list of tomatoes is a direct copy from a 1918 Tuskegee document by GW Carver:

Extra Early Varieties:
Spark's Earliana, June Pink, Burpee's Earliest Pink, John Baer, Prosperity, Bolgian's I. X. L., and Chalk's Early Jewel.

Mid-Summer Varieties:
My Maryland, Greater Baltimore, Dwarf Champion, and New Stone.

Late Varieties:
Red Rock, Acme, Livingstone's Stone.
===============================

Here is a link that might be useful: How to Grow the Tomato and 115 Ways to Prepare it for the Table, by GW Carver

What I keep seeing in these lists are names that I see being sold today by the seed suppliers or may be available from other folks who grow tomatoes. Maybe that's what this thread should do - list tomatoes from that era that are available now and we can ALL pick and choose varieties.

You know, it's even possible that the varieties grown in the Keys were from the Mayans or were "sports" or "mutations" that will never be seen again.

Ahhhhh!!!! THE DIVERSITY OF EVOLUTION AND MANKIND'S NACK FOR MESSING IT UP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LOL

:>)

From the original post: "From the early 1800's to the mid 1900's, the Florida Keys were famous for their winter tomatoes. Supposed to be the best tasting big tomatoes in the world."

And then from the message just above in this thread: "You know, it's even possible that the varieties grown in the Keys were from the Mayans or were 'sports' or 'mutations' that will never be seen again."

1. The original post does not give an exact start date, or even an approximate decade for "early 1800s" and I doubt it would be earlier than 1860 - 1870 surely ... since commercial tomatoes would not have been available for such a worldwide reputation of "best tasting big tomatoes in the world" (pay particular attention to the adjective "BIG").

2. I suspect that if Florida Key tomatoes enjoyed the reputation of "best tasting tomatoes in the world" by "the mid 1900s" that the varieties being grown commercially for that market would be those commonly available in large seed lots and not "sports" or "mutations" ... and surely not "Mayan" tomatoes (now refer back to "BIG" tomatoes).

If someone wants to replicate a Florida Keys market garden of the early to mid-1900s, I would think cultivars known to have existed at that time and adapted to the soil, climate and other growing conditions of that environment or similar environments (low altitude, low latitude, windy, sandy soil, salty air, etc.) would be the best choices.

That's why I suggested contacting Professor Scott. But if you want to persist with independent "detective work" (rather than pure guess work) ...

Let's look for a moment at Homestead: Breeder and vendor: Florida Agric. Expt. Sta. and the Southeastern Breeding Laboratory, USDA, Charleston, South Carolina. Parentage: (Victor x Dobbies Champion) x Pan American x Rutgers. Resistance: fusarium wilt. Similar: Rutgers. Adaptation: Florida. 1952. [NCSU Cultivar List description]

A bit after mid-century, yes. But look at parentage. What were the breeders using to obtain a cultivar adapted to Florida growing conditions? Why?

Victor? A Michigan tomato? Possibly adapted for Florida conditions? Hmmm. Breeder: Michigan State College, East Lansing. Parentage: Allred x Break O'Day. Characteristics: early, determinate, uniform ripening, flattened, often tough fruit. Similar: Bounty and Early Wonder. Adaptation: short season areas. Mich. Arg. Expt. Sta. Quart. Bul., 23 Aug. 1940. [NCSU Cultivar List description]

Oh! It has other attributes. Early. Determinate. Often tough fruit (wind and sand resistance)? But look at it's parentage. More possibilities ... Allred and Break O'Day (Mr. "Workhorse" per "100 Heirloom Tomatoes for the American Garden").

Pan America (a parent of Homestead) Breeder: USDA, Plant Industry Sta., Beltsville, Maryland. Parentage: PI 79532, Lycopersicon pimpinellifolium on Marglobe; hybrid backcrossed three times to Marglobe. Resistance: high to fusarium wilt. Similar: Marglobe. Adaptation: regionally to all sections of the United States where fusarium wilt is prevalent. USDA Circ. 611, June 1941. 1941. [NSCU Cultivar List decription]

Whatta you know ... a wild tomato crossed to Marglobe (parent of Rutgers) then "backcrossed three time to Marglobe" (son of Marvel x Globe).

Globe: Introduced by the Livingston Seed Company in 1905. It is reported to be a selection of a cross made by Robert Livingston in 1899 between 'Livingston's Stone' and the 'Ponderosa'. Livingston stated that the characteristic roughness of 'Ponderosa' persisted in 'Globe' and that only gradually was the present form developed. [Victory Seed Catalog description]

Are you starting to get my drift? The tomatoes most likely grown in the Florida Keys to the extent that they were reknowned as "the best tasting tomatoes in the world" most likely were the currently best available commercial cultivars at any given time ... and the result of concentrated efforts by plant breeders to produce adaptable and acceptable commercial produce.

Bill

Here's what I posted above:

(But here's my question for you Corrie.

It's one thing to scan old seed catalogs for varieties, or even read the long list in the back of Andrew Smith's book on tomato history, or for me to post a VERY long list from the Michigan State Bulletin of 1939 which lists the varieties available to the public starting in about 1868, but is that what you want to do? I'm not so sure what that accomplishes, again, b'c of seed availability not being known to FL growers, etc.

Or do you want to concentrate on what varieties are good to grow in a hot humid climate of ones available NOW.

Florida is not unique in terms of growing tomatoes for the same tomato problems obtain up the East Coast to about NC and then West along the Gulf Coast to TX.

And if one does a search here at GW ( bottom of page) there's thread after Thread after thread asking about hot/humid weather tomatoes.)

*****

I'm still waiting for Corrie to answer.

In light of some intervening posts I too could list this and that variety, a very long list indeed, from about 1868 onwards, but I honestly don't think it would be that helpful as I've also said above. And to be honest I'm not at all in the mood to type all those varieties. ( smile)

And of the ones I would have listed not all are still in commerce, which is true of some of the varieties already listed above in various posts.

So how should this thread go? I can't see chasing varieties known to be grown in the Keys b/c they aren't known, and I already pointed out the problem with the dating from 1800 above.

I've grown a lot of the older commercial varieties and so has Bill, but is that really what you're looking for Corrie?

If not, then if it were me I'd check out some of the many threads here at GW on suggestions for varieties for hot/humid areas, but again as I said above, I have friends in FL and the hot humid SE who grow anything they want to and usually grow it well, but only if attention is paid to the timing of two crops a year.

Carolyn

Hi, if your main intent is to simply find some good varieties for Florida check out the Gardening in Florida forum below.

Lots of varieties grow well down here; however, for the fall/winter crop I have found the early types are the best as they handle the shorter days better.

Hope this helps, DC

Here is a link that might be useful: Gardening in Florida forum