I think the key to organics is sustainability, not necessarily some anecdotal health or quality benefit or a dogmatic adherence to "purity", both physically and philosophically. If chemical fertilizers damage the environment by killing the soil life, choking the watersheds, and resulting in more pollution, etc, then not only is it morally abhorrent, it just isn't good business sense or resource management. You kill your supply and potentially kill your demand (through systematic poisoning), you lose customers. But then again, I could go on about subsidies and lack of property rights that reduces these incentives, but I'll withhold. As for buying food, I think more emphasis should be put on buying local rather than the "organic" label, which probably was grown 3000 miles away in China by some dirt cheap labor and flown over with hundreds of gallons of gas, not to mention it probably isn't fresh. However, if people have chosen a lifestyle, for whatever reason, people should respect their choices and inquiries. I don't see many people mocking vegans for their lifestyle, claiming its a scam and marketing ploy which ultimately is futile.

It is good to read the negative results on milk. Can you folks please describe how you mixed it and how often you sprayed? I consider milk to be experimental but initial experiments were "successful." There's no good database on milk, so let's get one started. I can say that I have watered African violets with milk water and never once encountered any of the fungal disease or leaf drop that the AV enthusiasts told me I would. I used the same Wal-Mart soil all the way through to the eventual demise of the plants (these plants are my hotel hobby for when I'm away on business for 6 months. When I'm home I take horrible care of them. Most are dead now). I had a great experience recovering an AV my wife was growing. She's not organic and had been using Peter's 20-20-20 on it. One week it was waterlogged and looked poorly. Two weeks later she finally allowed me to take over. I put milk on it and the milk coagulated!!! I put milk on it until it stopped coagulating and poured through milky. Two weeks later the soil had a thick covering of fuzzy fungus. I milked it again and two weeks later you would never know it had had problems. The soil smelled like a forest floor and everything seemed to be fine. The AV professionals would have tossed the plant at the first sign of problems. My thoughts on why milk works is that they provide a source of protein for the beneficial microbes that live on the plant surface. Once the beneficials are well fed, they interact with the plant to develop a stronger self protection system. It has been pretty well proved around the world that certain gasses (notably salicylic acid (oil of wintergreen) and gibberilic acid) stimulate certain genes in plants to enhance their protection system. I think milk does it differently but does the same thing.

FOAS, the black vinegar that I have is not made in China - it is Japanese: Rinkosan Kurosu Uchibori, Hamamatsucho, Minatoku Tokyo, Japan. Ingredients: water, rice, salt. However, there is very little salt, as a single serving has 0mg Sodium. It does taste like vinegar, but not at all like European vinegar. Here's the info on the soy sauces that I currently have: As it turns out, I have five bottles of soy sauces in addition to two bottles of ponzu sauce. Four of the soy sauces are Japanese, and one is Pearl River Bridge light soy sauce from China. The Chinese soy sauce has the harshest flavor and is also the saltiest. Here are the ones from Japan: Marudaizu Shoyu, brewed by Yamasa Corporation, Choshi, Chiba JAPAN  large bottle (and was probably fairly inexpensive), ingredients: Water, Soybeans, Wheat, and Sea salt  No preservative added, 1000ml (34 fl oz.). Good mellow flavor, not too salty www.yamasa.com "Marushima" (Shodoshima Shoyu), ingredients: Water, Soybean, Wheat, Salt, distributed by Mitsuwa, Torrance, CA. Very similar flavor to the above, but slightly mellower and a bit less salty. Net wt. 12.70 oz, 360 gr. Seasoned Soy Sauce (Katsuo Shoyu  Maruten Br.) Ingredients: Soy Sauce (Water, Soybeans, Wheat, Salt), sugar, glucose, sweet rice wine, salt, dried shaved bonito, kelp extract, alcohol, monosodium glutamate. This one has a similar flavor to the others, but with a hint of Japanese beer and a bit of sweetness. All of these (above) have mainly Japanese labels with small labels in English pasted on. Shirakiku brand salTless shoyu, distributed by Nishimoto Trading Co, product of Japan. Ingredients: water, soybeans, wheat, alcohol to preserve freshness. This one tastes mostly like Japanese beer, but with a stronger malt flavor. There is also a soy flavor, but different from other soy sauces. I also have some Mitsukan Ajipon Ponzu citrus seasoned soy sauce, product of U.S.A., and one of my least favorites. Ingredients: Soy Sauce (water, wheat, soybeans and salt), water, distilled vinegar, lemon juice, high fructose corn syrup, salt, monosodium glutamate, citric acid, natural orange flavor, succinic acid, sodium benzoate (as preservative), disodium inosinate and disodium guanylate. Mizkan Americas, Mt. Prospect, Il. I have some Kikkoman Ponzu sauce, and it is even worse than the Miskan, but fairly similar in taste and ingredients. The winner of these is the Marudaizu Shoyu, for price and flavor. Lars

Lars, I often substitute water for milk in bread, mostly because I'm out of milk, I don't buy it as often because I only drink one glass for breakfast daily and it's always skim, Ashley likes chocolate milk, whcih might actually be OK in some breads but not most. I've also successfully substituted my homemade yogurt for sour cream and milk in bread and muffins without noticeable problems. If it were me, I'd just substitute water in most bread recipes. Croissants are more tender, so that might not be as good an option for them, I'd probably try to sub something else for the milk in those. Annie